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By: a small child, Ralph Wiggum
Jun 25 2010 12:18am
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First off I want to apologize for not writing anything last week -- I've been out of town for a funeral and haven't had much time to write as a result. I'm back though and am going to continue today by discussing one of the top archetypes in Rise limited: G/x ramp. First off, however, I'd like to update my thoughts on the three archetypes that I've already written about: U/W Levelers, G/W Gnarlid, and W/x Hartebeest Control.

 

For some reason, I completely skipped over colorless cards when discussing the forks and cornerstones of these archetypes. Luckily, the colorless cards aren't all that relevant to these particular archetypes with one major exception that I will get to shortly. As a generally aggressive archetype, U/W levelers is less likely to splash and less likely to want to run expensive Eldrazi than almost any other archetype in the format. Thus the colorless cards don't really help there. I mean, you can run an Ulamog's Crusher in your leveler deck but you usually hope to not do that. The same is fairly true of the G/W Gnarlid deck, although that deck is more likely to splash for sweet aura cards like Narcolepsy, Lust for War, and Drake Umbra. As such, Prophetic Prism can be important to that deck. I wouldn't go so far as to call it a cornerstone, but if you really want to splash then you should treat it like one, and an important one at that if you lack fixing in pack 3. Similarly, the Crusher can go reasonably well in the Gnarlid deck, especially if you take some more generic green fork cards like Overgrown Battlement and Kozilek's Predator early and still end up playing them. Don't go crazy with the Eldrazi but don't automatically discount them either.

 

The really important card to discuss is a rare:

 

Eldrazi Conscription

 

This card is one of the biggest bomb auras ever printed. I initially underrated this card when the set came out because auras are usually pretty weak, and the idea of paying 8 mana only to get two for one'ed made my stomach turn. That said, this card in this format is an exception. I think that you can play Eldrazi Conscription in any archetype in this format, but there are a few archetypes that it really shines in. Of those archetypes, the most important is the Hartebeest control deck. Honestly, it was criminal of me to not mention this in my last article as Eldrazi Conscription is probably the number one reason to draft that deck. I'm not going to lie to you -- it's not a consistent Tier 1 deck like G/x ramp in this format. But if you get a conscription it becomes really, really hard to beat. In fact, this situation is one of the few times where I would advocate forcing in this format. Because the Hartebeest deck is Tier 2 and all the cards that make you really want to play it are uncommon or rare, it's not something that will be drafted at every table. As such, it's a lot safer to force it than other decks IF and only if you open the key cards early. So even though Eldrazi Conscription is the ultimate fork in some ways because you can play it in any deck and it will range from good to redonkulus, it's also the ultimate cornerstone because it is so much better in the Hartebeest deck than any other deck that you really just want to play that if you pop a conscription.

 

Some of the reasons why this is the case are obvious but others are more subtle. The obvious ones are that Hartebeest fetches up conscription, thus dramatically increasing the odds that you will be able to play your bomb, and that your deck is on a control plan, thus making it more likely that you will see 8 mana. The more subtle reasons are pretty compelling too, though. First of all, lets review the possible ways a game can unfold in which you cast Eldrazi Conscription:

 

1. You are so far behind at this point that you die anyway (we can't really prevent this from happening other than by drafting and playing better, so it's not really worth considering here).

2. You swing and win the game immediately, or you swing twice and win.

3. You swing and gain a large advantage, but your opponent has a sorcery speed answer next turn and you have to find another way to seal the deal (which often isn't difficult). Noteworthy sorcery speed answers include Corpsehatch, Guard Duty, Narcolepsy, and a threaten effect + a sac outlet (although if they threaten your conscripted guy you may be screwed even if they can't sac it!)

4. Your opponent has one of a few instant speed answers and you get blown out. Those answers are: Heat Ray, Staggershock (not likely), Vendetta, Regress, Spawning Breath (really not likely!), and Induce Despair.

5. Your opponent has sided in enchantment removal and busts your aura, thus leaving you basically where you were before. You might get two for one'ed in combat by this, but if you do you annihilated them first which leaves you closer to parity.

 

I'd say the most common scenario is 2. In an umbra based deck it's really easy to bait out answers by offering your opponent a two for one with a weaker aura, and honestly that two for one isn't likely going to matter when you brawl with your +10/+10 trampling eldrazi. You will get blown out sometimes, but the Hartebeest deck provides you with tools for avoiding this outcome more than any other deck. First of all, you will likely have access to a totem aura to protect your conscription target. If you have a totem armor on, then Regress and Induce Despair are your only real fears. Since you likely have big butts already (Hartebeest is 2/5, for example) then they might not even be able to Induce you, especially if you stick a big umbra on it first. I know it sounds loose, but if you know your opponent has multiple copies of induce you might even consider siding in Eland Umbra to protect your conscription target. Or you can just bait it out before.

 

I've faced the following scenario multiple times in draft and it's made me want to bash my head into the wall every time:

 

1. My opponent plays Hartebeest and fetches Eldrazi Conscription. I peer at the Vendetta in my hand, licking my chops.

2. My opponent untaps and plays a Hyena Umbra on one of his creatures. I can now either kill that and let him resolve conscription on something else, or let it resolve knowing that he can follow up with conscription on the same creature and I won't be able to stop him unless I draw another answer.

3. I die a horrible death.

 

OR, even worse:

 

1. Opponent fetches something like Drake Umbra.

2. I am forced to burn my removal on the Drake Umbra target.

3. I lose to the conscription.

 

The hartebeest deck is also uniquely equipped to deal with the sorcery speed answers. The actual removal spells get foiled by totem armor just the same, and you are much more likely to have an answer to the enchantment based removal because you draft enchantment kill spells a little more aggressively  (and are thus likely to have sideboard answers to Narcolepsy and Guard Duty). You also have the potential to get cute by siding in Crab Umbra against Narcolepsy. You are still pretty cold to Regress, but there isn't much you can do about that regardless of what archetype you are playing. And hey, if they regress your Hartebeest it isn't the worst thing ever.

 

There is also a colored cornerstone card for the Hartebeest deck that I left out:

 

Valakut Fireboar

 

The boar gets a lot of action in the Kiln Fiend archetypes but hasn't been given his due in this deck. First of all, its a defensive card which works well with your control strategy and especially well if you get some copies of Lust for War, which synergize with the boar very well. He blocks their guy, and the lust clears they way for him to attack back. If you can connect with boar once it's almost impossible to lose the race if you have a lust on them. The other reason why boar works well in this archetype is that he's great with totem auras. Hyena Umbra makes him very difficult to block, and Drake Umbra is ... well ... let's just say that it demands an immediate answer.

 

OK! Now that we've got that out of the way, lets talk about Green.

 

 

 G/x Ramp

 

It would be irresponsible of me to write this article without mentioning Ben Stark's excellent article on the subject which can be found here. Stark has consistently been one of this archetype's major proponents since early on in the format, so it would be foolish of me to not seriously consider what he has to say. I think he has the archetype pretty well figured out, but there are a few points that he makes which really merit quite a bit more discussion than he gives them. First of all, I want to pull one a comment he made and really focus in on it:

"There aren’t really any hidden gems for this deck, as most of the cards that are good for you fit into your main plans of “stay alive” and “develop your mana to play busted late game cards." -- Ben Stark

Basically what Stark is getting at here is that this archetype doesn't really have many cornerstones. It's cornerstones are good enough in enough other archetypes to be forks. On the one hand, this makes the archetype really good because it means you can try to draft this deck without taking any "bad" cards that will be wasted picks if you have to shift into a different archetype. However, it also means that there isn't much you want for this deck that will be coming super late as long as the archetype isn't underdrafted. What that means is that you have to decide to go in on this deck or not in the middle of the first pack rather than toward the end. If you think that Green is open enough to draft this deck, you should know that by mid pack. If it is, go for it. If it's not, then you will have to branch out into something else quickly.

 

Before we get any further into discussing the archetype, I want to clear up something about some of the language that Stark uses. He talks about archetypes as being either Tier 1 or Tier 2. I even picked this idea up a bit earlier in the article when talking about the Hartebeest deck. That said, we must not confuse these terms with what they mean in a constructed context. In constructed, a Tier 1 deck is a deck that has game against a wide portion of the field and has enough power in a vacuum to likely contend with whatever the next big deck is. Jund is an excellent example of a Tier 1 deck -- it matches up pretty well against almost anything and tends to stay competitive as the metagame shifts. Tier 2 decks, on the other hand, are more narrow. They tend to have a few very good matchups and a few very bad matchups. As such, they are more narrowly applicable to a metagame. They are also less likely to survive the introduction of new decks to the format. Tier 2 can also describe decks that are outclassed by Tier 1 decks -- like if a deck has generally good matchups but there is another deck out there that has even better matchups against all the same decks, then the first deck will be relegated to Tier 2 status even though it might be Tier 1 if the second deck didn't exist.

In draft, tiers mean something very different because of the scarcity factor. In constructed, the same cards are available to everyone all the time (aside from budget concerns, obviously). In draft, however, you are beholden both to what cards the packs contain and to what your neighbors take. Thus the Tier system in limited is more of a statement about probability than it is about what the best thing to draft is. When someone makes comments about tiers in limited, they are assuming something about the metagame. Either they are assuming a neutral metagame (a fictional metagame in which nobody has any preferences going into the draft) or they are assuming some particular metagame where players on the whole tend to prefer certain colors or archetypes over others. Unfortunately, Stark didn't really get into what his assumptions about the metagame were in his article. Regardless, we can make an assumption about what he means: I think what Stark means to say when he calls an archetype Tier 1 is that it is relatively likely that you will be able to draft a successful deck with this archetype at a given draft table. As such, a Tier 2 archetype is one that is a bit less likely to result in a successful deck at a given draft table. The reasons for this probability are many. For one, the writer may be making assumptions about how over/under drafted certain colors and archetypes are. If an archetype is underdrafted, then it'll be much easier to get a good deck of that archetype. Another factor is the average quality of a deck of a given archetype. Some archetypes will produce a solid deck even if the draft goes relatively poorly while others need everything to fall into place to become awesome. So if a deck's average performance is higher it's more likely that you'll get a successful deck with that archetype all other factors being equal. A final factor is the deck's reliance on certain cards and the rarity of those cards. If an archetype is completely beholden to one or two particular cards (like Dampen Thought back in Kamigawa block), then the likelihood of drafting that archetype successfully is a lot lower especially of those cards are uncommon, rare, or mythic. On the other hand, if an archetype is relatively flexible in what cards it needs and those cards tend to be common, then it's pretty easy to draft that archetype because it's likely the cards you need will be present.

 

So the moral of this story is that in constructed, Tier 1/Tier 2 is code for how good a deck is. In limited, Tier 1/Tier 2 is a much more complicated statement which basically boils down to how likely it is that this choice will be good at a given table. Consider Alara block. There were some really ridiculous rares in that block, such as Martial Coup and Cruel Ultimatum. It's pretty common to hear people talking about "drafting to their rares" in that format, which basically means that when you open a busted rare, you just draft your whole deck around it because it's so powerful. So when you open Cruel Ultimatum you take it and then draft the Cruel Ultimatum archetype. When this deck came together it was absolutely awesome and very likely to be the best deck at the table. But you could never call it Tier 1 because the likelihood of getting a Cruel is so low. That deck would only come along once in a great while, so it was Tier 2. The same is true of the Hartebeest Conscription deck I discussed above. It's Tier 2 because the cards for it aren't going to be available in every draft, not because the deck isn't "good."

 

Back to G/x Ramp -- I think that Stark is absolutely right that this deck is Tier 1 simply because it can get by completely on commons and highly redundant commons at that. It really all boils down to one simple equation:


Ramp + Removal + Boom Boom = Win.

 

Stark basically breaks down the cards in this archetype into three categories (the ones I mentioned above). You use ramp spells like Ondu Giant, Growth Spasm, Overgrown Battlement, Joraga Treespeaker, and Kozilek's Predator to accelerate your mana and cast big finishers like Ulamog's Crusher, Artisan of Kozilek, Gigantomancer, and Gelatinous Genesis. You then win the game with said finishers. The removal part of the equation serves two purposes. First of all, it helps buy you time against an aggressive opponent. Secondly, it eliminates any threats that might be able to stop your finisher. Thus really there are two very different categories of removal -- the removal that buys you time and the removal that protects your finisher.

 

Removal that buys you time: StaggershockFlame SlashGuard DutyLast KissForked BoltLeaf ArrowDaggerback BasiliskVirulent Swipe

Removal that protects your finisher: NarcolepsyVendettaCorpsehatchRegressHeat RayInduce Despair

 

Note that most of the second category of removal spells also fill in for the first, particularly Regress. Induce Despair is conditional on having a large creature in your hand to power it up, obviously. And I know Daggerback Basilisk isn't really removal but it basically fills that role.

The interesting thing is that removal used to buy time is basically filling the same roll as ramp does. It gets the game to the point where you can cast a finisher into an advantageous board. Ramp does it by getting the finisher out faster, removal does it by keeping the board stable for longer. The thing is that the ramp spells tend to be more efficient at what they do because they mostly provide card advantage. Joraga Treespeaker, for example, provides a kind of card advantage in that he takes the place of two lands. Ondu Giant gives you a land and a blocker. Of the first category of removal spells, only Staggershock provides card advantage unless your opponent plays into a two-for-one, and even then it only provides card advantage under certain circumstances. So, generally speaking, when you are playing this archetype you should be taking ramp spells over the first category of removal spell unless you already have plenty of ramp and have very little removal. Also, keep in mind that Basilisk and Swipe are both pretty bad because they only deal with creatures that you can block, and those creatures don't tend to be as problematic anyway.

The second category of removal spells come at more of a premium because they pull double duty for you. They deal with the opponent's critical threats and ensure that your opponent can't use creatures to resist your finishers. I do want to point out though that both Vendetta and Corpsehatch don't kill Black creatures, which has lost me plenty of games. You want some diversity in your removal spells so that you don't end up losing to a heavily Black player.

Another thing to consider when selecting your finishers is resiliency. The reason why cards like Pelakka Wurm, Gelatinous Genesis, Gigantomancer, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, and Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre are so good in this archetype is that they are either especially hard to get rid of or provide value even if they die. The Eldrazi and the Wurm fall into the value category (although they are no easy feat to kill either!), while genesis and Gigantomancer are both tough to deal with because you either have to remove multiple creatures in the case of genesis or remove the Gigantomancer entirely -- on board removal will not suffice. The same is true of Wildheart Invoker, which can be just as dangerous a finisher although it's a bit easier to kill.

So given all this information it's pretty clear why the deck is base Green and can pick a number of secondary colors, typically Black or Red. Furthermore, you will often want to splash one or two other colors, with Blue being a common splash color. I agree with Stark that the best secondary color is likely Black simply because the Black removal is better in the deck than the Red removal is. That said, it is really close with Red also providing some solid ramp with Emrakul's Hatcher, which I like better than Dread Drone. If you splash more than one color you probably will want to consider running Prophetic Prism unless you have a ton of other fixers.

That leaves one important question: where does this deck run into trouble? I think there are basically three common scenarios. The first and most obvious is when you draw your cards in the wrong proportions. This archetype is vulnerable to the same basic flaw that all ramp decks are vulnerable too: when you run a lot of ramp, the likelihood of getting flooded is high. If you don't draw your finishers or if your opponent can deal with the ones that you do draw you can often be stuck drawing piles of unneeded land while your opponent slowly builds a board to overwhelm you. Other times you will draw too many finishers but not enough ramp and removal and your opponent gets you before you can do anything.

The second scenario involves your opponent playing something that you can't deal with. This most often comes up against other ramp decks but can also occur with particularly threatening cards in other archetypes such as a really well supported Bloodthrone Vampire, a huge Aura Gnarlid, or a couple of nasty levelers. More rarely this happens when your opponent has a more midrange bomb rare like Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief, Sphinx of Magosi, or Conquering Manticore. Even a non-ramp deck can sometimes get these cards out before you get your finishers in play. In these situations you usually either have the appropriate removal spell or you lose. It's often going to come down to luck because you will rarely have a huge surplus of the good removal.

A final scenario comes up when you draft an unfocused deck that gets confused between this archetype and a token based archetype. This is a really easy mistake to make, but it's also luckily under your control. Tokens and ramp seem to go well together because they share so many desired cards. After all, the tokens can be used to ramp your mana! The problem is that the finishers for the two archetypes have tremendous anti-synergy. Casting huge creatures requires you to sac your tokens. Broodwarden, Lavafume Invoker, etc. want you to keep your tokens in play. You can't do both. So if you try to hybridize this deck you are going to end up with really awkward draws where you draw a Lavafume Invoker and an Ulamog's Crusher and one of the two is basically going to do nothing. It's OK to wait a little while to decide what archetype you are drafting but once you do decide you should really stick to it if you can. Some hybridization is going to happen, but limit it whenever you can.

So now that we've been through all of that, I'll leave you with my list of Forks that can lead into this archetype:

 

Overgrown BattlementOndu GiantJoraga TreespeakerKozilek's PredatorGrowth SpasmWildheart InvokerArtisan of KozilekUlamog's CrusherFlame SlashHeat RayVendettaStaggershockCorpsehatchEmrakul's HatcherNarcolepsyRegressBeastbreaker of Bala GedPelakka WurmDrana, Kalastria BloodchiefPestilence DemonAll is DustAwakening ZoneBramblesnapBrimstone MageConquering ManticoreConsuming VaporsConsume the MeekDisaster RadiusEldrazi ConscriptionGelatinous GenesisGigantomancerGuul Draz AssassinInduce DespairKazandu TuskcallerKeening StoneLord of Shatterskull PassLust for WarNirkana RevenantNirkana CutthroatPawn of UlamogRage NimbusRapacious OneSarkhan The MadVengevine

 

I know it's a long list, and some of these cards aren't really that great in the deck. They are all fine and I wouldn't be unhappy playing them, but something like Nirkana Cutthroat really isn't at its best here. I do want to comment on a few cards in particular. You are probably drafting Beastbreaker of Bala Ged too high in this archetype. It's a fine card, but its really more aggressive than this archetype is. You'd rather be ramping than leveling this guy most of the time, and he is too easily dealt with to be a reliable finisher. He's a fork because he's good in a number of archetypes but this is one of the ones where he is probably least good. You also have to be really careful with Consume the Meek. If your ramp package consists of a bunch of creature based mana such as Overgrown Battlement and Joraga Treespeaker then you probably should not be playing this card. Likewise if you plan to amass a ton of tokens as your ramp package. If you have it early you can still play the game to maximize its potential but it isn't as easy to do that with this card as it is with most mass removal except against leveler decks where you can count on most of their threats dying to this.

 

I suppose I can mention a few "cornerstones" too:

Hellcarver DemonKhalni HydraKozilek, Butcher of TruthUlamog, The Infinite GyreDreamstone HedronSkeletal WurmSpawnsire of Ulamog

 

Honestly, I'm not sure if Hellcarver Demon is any good. If it is then this is the only archetype where I can imagine it being playable. Spawnsire is unexciting but it can be allright. The same is true of Skeletal Wurm. You don't really want these to be your finishers but they will do in a pinch. The two mythic Eldrazi are only playable in a few archetypes but they are incredibly awesome in those. They are also mythics so don't expect them to go late. Dreamstone Hedron is the closest thing to a true cornerstone that we have here -- it can be really good in this deck because it ramps you by a lot and you can cash it in for cards. It's a big tempo hit to break your hedron but it can save you from some of those draws where you get really flooded.

 

Next up I will discuss "The Token Archetype" which can be R/G, B/G, or R/x.

10 Comments

i agree with most everything by this isnt the n... at Fri, 06/25/2010 - 03:40
this isnt the name i chose's picture

i agree with most everything you have written about roe limited. I havee been playing it a lot (mostly successfully), and your advice is pretty straight on.
A comment on the last line of "cornerstones" : Hellcarver demon is pretty much unplayable unless you plan on using it as a blocker until they are at 6. It has been played against me multiple times and each time has made them lose. Funniest being when i regressed it with its ability on the stack.
And spawnsire sucks some major eldrazi balls. I would only play spawnsire if it was somehow the only finisher i had in the whole deck. Every other eldrazi is better than it, including hand of emrakul (cause at least it can be cast on t3).

Completey disagree on by Kmaster at Fri, 06/25/2010 - 13:32
Kmaster's picture

Completely disagree on Hellcarver. The card is insane. It works best in a token based strategy as the spawn will help accelerate him and being able to flip Dread Drone or Hatcher or Predator off of a hit will render the ground safe from a swingback.
I've lost exactly one game where Hellcarver Demon dealt combat damage to my opponent. The last flip only hit 2 permanents and neither made spawn, so I died to an Artisan of Kozilek. Every other deck I've drafted with Hellcarver has won or split an 8-4. Let's just say it beat a deck with Drana and Nirkana Revenant quite easily.

Edit: Hellcarver is also insane with Domestication or Traitorous Instinct, as it effectively takes out your opponent's best threat for you.

I honestly don't have enough by a small child at Fri, 06/25/2010 - 15:34
a small child's picture

I honestly don't have enough experience with the demon to know which one of you is correct. That said, I want to clarify something about the idea of a "token based strategy" -- when I refer to a token based strategy I mean one that is based around the idea of keeping the tokens in play or using them for a purpose other than mana. This involves things like Broodwarden, Magmaw, Lavafume Invoker, Bloodthrone Vampire etc. The ramp strategy often plays a lot of token generation but with the intention of using those tokens for mana. I think Hellcarver can probably work in both of these decks for different reasons -- like you said flipping up some token makers is fine as it holds the ground. Similarly, flipping a couple of boom booms is nice because your second attack is likely to be lethal (and they hold the ground).

Worth the read by Unixaaron at Sun, 06/27/2010 - 02:54
Unixaaron's picture

I sat down tonight and read all the ROE limited articles you wrote in one sitting. Then I played my first ROE draft. I started with a blue white elevator but I was getting nothing. I switched hard to green in second pack and got a nice curve with that stuff. I ended up playing a G/W/u aura deck. The drake aura is very good with the snake one. I came in second in that and felt like I had a huge heads up with advice like stacking totems can be good. I will be looking forward to the next installment.

Nice, congrats on the finish! by a small child at Sun, 06/27/2010 - 22:10
a small child's picture

Nice, congrats on the finish! Keep in mind that the benefits of stacking auras depend a lot on what your opponent has -- if they show you a regress or lots of instant speed removal be careful!

Ramp/Token overlap by Felorin at Sun, 06/27/2010 - 03:45
Felorin's picture

I think overlapping cards from a ramp strategy with cards from a token-based strategy isn't as bad as you suggest. While there is some anti-synergy involved, you also have access to a broader selection of win conditions, some of which can even fit at the low end of the mana curve like Bloodthrone Vampire. Something like Broodwarden or the Bloodthrone can also make the other guy unwilling to swing in on the ground in mid-game, then you can sac spawn to cast a fattie later. Or maybe Pennon Blade lets you get a few profitable attacks in early before you sac 'em. Also, if you hit 7-8 lands you may reach a point where you need few or no spawn alive to be able to cast all your spells anyway, at which point the anti-synergy is pretty minimal.

Worst case, you get in a situation where you must choose to use the spawn one way (bring out Artisan or Crusher) or another way (sac 'em to Magmaw or swarm in damage with Broodwarden but lose some to blockers, go for one big fatal hit with Bloodthrone Vampire, etc). I would say this is "skill testing" more than "bad". You have to read which of the tools in your hand is more likely to earn the win. In an ideal situation, it might turn out that either route would win and you're golden. Failing that, reaching a game-state where you can win if your playskill is high enough to make the best choice, thats your goal in Magic. Not necessarily to strive for a gamestate so good you can't possibly fail to see the way to win. That's better when it happens, but harder to accomplish!

In constructed, a deck with a plan B and maybe even a plan C has advantages over one with only a plan A like Boros Bushwhacker. The same can apply in limited. Granted, if I was trying to put some token-deck cornerstones in a ramp deck (or vice versa) I would lean more towards certain of them (like a Pennon Blade), and more away from others, depending on the level of anti-synergy involved. But I like mixing them up a little, especially if I can get a deck with 7-9 token producing spells.

Even in the pure ramp deck, you haven't simplified token usage to an automatic, no-brainer thing. Any deck that makes tokens has you making decisions about when to use them to chump block, and when to save them to use for mana.

In a hybrid deck, you might have to decide whether with your given hand, the opponent's deck, and the board state they serve you best as chumpers, rampers, or fuel for one of your "token likers" and if so, which one! But having a resource that lets you use it several different ways means you have flexibility and options, which is useful. A situation where you have 5 land, 3 spawn, and two Crushers in hand doesn't necessarily mean you're better off than having 5 land, 3 spawn, and a Broodwarden and Crusher in hand. The former case you have an extra guy you can't cast for a while, the latter case you have two options, each of which might be better in different situations.

I don't think a Mortician Beetle would be at all upset if you sacced all your spawn tokens to ramp out a fattie, either! He's a token deck card, but the anti-synergy isn't too bad with him.

My biggest concern would be, if only 2-3 cards of your ramping does it by making tokens, token-loving cards are often going to do very little. If you get a ton of Ondu Giants, Overgrown Battlements, etc. but little spawn, then I wouldn't want to mix. But I value spawn producers very highly - if you're in a draft pod where other people value them highly enough, mixing the archetypes is not so viable. I'd only do it if I got a pretty good number of spawn producers early. I think if you're starting more from a token-archetype base and adding in a few fattie-ramp style finishers, there might not be as much downside as splashing tokeny guys in the ramp deck.

I'm not entirely sure what to by a small child at Sun, 06/27/2010 - 22:41
a small child's picture

I'm not entirely sure what to make of your comments partially because I'm not sure how bad you think I'm saying hybridization is. It's certainly not the end of the world and, in fact, I'd say that most of the time it's rather inevitable in small doses. Like, if you have a ramp deck with a couple of spawn producers that you plan on saccing to power out fatties, you aren't going to pass a Broodwarden if it's the only card in the pack and you're still relatively likely to play it.

Also, I don't consider Mortician Beetle to be a token deck card. In fact, with the exception of the R/B token archetype I think that Mortician Beetle is a ramp deck card (as long as that ramp deck is using tokens to ramp. A green based token strategy does not want to sac its tokens very often. Mortician Beetle wants you to sac your tokens. I'm not saying Mortician Beetle is bad in that archetype -- it's not, it's quite good -- but it's a lot better when you WANT to be saccing your tokens for some other reason than pumping the beetle.

In general though, I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the benefits of hybridization. Limited is just so different than constructed. In constructed having a backup plan is important because every deck is capable of executing a basic plan very effectively. In most good constructed decks, the backup plan is similar to the basic plan. For example, in super friends your plan A might be to bash them with Gideon while plan B is blow up their land with Ajani and get them with whatver. Plan C might be use Elspeth to token jump them to death. I don't really know that deck very well so I could easily be wrong about what the precise order of the plans is, but while they play out differently in game they are basically the same plan at heart: play a planeswalker, protect it, profit! So the deck doesn't lose focus at all by having multiple plans -- instead it gains resilience against sideboarding and unexpected threats.

In limited, things are so different. For one, not every deck is as focused as a constructed deck. Sideboards also tend to be weaker in limited. Also, while the presence of certain archetypes is predictable, uncommons, rares, and mythics make actual decklists much less so. Most importantly though, in limited your plan B -- at least how you are talking about it -- is not nearly as similar as your plan A. In fact, some of the scenarios you describe suggest a plan B that is diametrically opposed to your plan A. Now sometimes it works out fine -- I agree that often it doesn't really hinder you. But I disagree insofar as I think that 90% of the time -- especially in this format -- you will be better off with a more focused deck.

After some further thought, I think I understand the root of some of our differences. I think you tend to like the spawn archetype more than the ramp archetype per se, and I think that those decks are better suited to hybridization than the ramp decks are. Like, you lose less being 75% token and 25% ramp than you do being 75% ramp and 25% token relative to the pure version of the deck. I still think you lose a little, maybe, but in the case of the token deck it's very little as long as your ramp portion consists of finishers. Think about it like this: if you have a lot of token production, then you can often afford to blow a few on a big fattie and still keep your token enablers useful. If your token production is limited, you're not likely to have much gas left after casting a fattie so your token enablers will really suck. Basically what it boils down to is that it's OK to use the "ramp" part of a token deck in a ramp deck (ie: tokens themselves are fine) but it's bad to put too many token enablers in a ramp deck. Likewise, the fattie part of a ramp deck goes well in a token deck... but the ramp part does not. You'd rather not be casting Ondu Giant when you could be casting Kozilek's Predator if your strategy revolves around tokens.

I find hybridization to by AverageDrafter at Mon, 06/28/2010 - 10:11
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I find hybridization to actually be optimal. Sure you will have awkward hands like Crusher/Invoker - but then you will have awkward hands like Crusher/Artisan too. Having one half of the equation and not the other is the major problem with ramp decks - one which hybridization helps to defuse.

The reason I like hybridization is that it gives you an early major threat to wittle down their life (or go the distance on its own) and draw out removal like Narco and Guard Duty - which means that when my monster does drop, chances are it goes the distance.

My favorite tokens card hasn't been mentioned yet - Bramblesnap. It doesn't consume the tokens, and the trample means it can't be chumped. It also scales nicely with the game - meaning that your opponent can't just ignore it until its outclassed.

It's cards like Bramble, Vampire, and Invoker that make me want to draft Predators and Hatchers over other ramp, and even some removal like Forked Bolt or Last Kiss.

First of all, I totally agree by a small child at Wed, 06/30/2010 - 09:36
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First of all, I totally agree about Bramblesnap. I think it's one of the cards that works well in both archetypes mainly because it simultaneously fills the role of finisher and early defender. While many people see trample and assume that Bramblesnap is an offensive card, it actually plays defense better than it does offense. That said, it also works just fine as a late game attacker.

That said, I completely disagree about Crusher/Artisan. I think you are imagining a scenario where you sac a few tokens, cast your crusher and are then unable to cast the artisan because you no longer have the mana to do so. This scenario is based on a faulty premise, because if you are drafting ramp you should be prioritizing more durable forms of mana acceleration like battlement, treespeaker, ondu giant, growth spasm, etc. If you ramp up using these guys, then your line of play is to run the crusher out there and then artisan it back into play if it gets killed. Dealing with a quick crusher once is tough, but dealing with it a second time plus an artisan? Let's just say I've never seen anyone come back from that beating.

I'm also not sure what you mean by an early major threat. A lavafume invoker is not a major threat until you have 8 mana and a bunch of guys out. Bloodthrone vampire is not a major threat until you have to block it because you have enough creatures to make it lethal (or close enough to lethal). Broodwarden can be a major threat if you have enough tokens out -- but if you do then you were probably drafting a token deck anyway. Without token support Broodwarden is a pretty weak play. Anyway, if your opponents are blowing removal spells on these guys early that they could be using later on against Eldrazi or other fatties, then quite frankly they are playing very poorly. Your vampire/invoker/broodwarden or whatever are much more likely to eat a flame slash, staggershock, or small induce despair or what not than they are to eat a vendetta/narcolepsy/guard duty. Bloodthrone might get narcolepsied or guard dutied but probably not until you have developed your board quite a bit.

I can tell that both you and Felorin prefer drafting the tokens archetypes to the G/x ramp archetype. That's fine -- it's a totally legitimate preference. Furthermore, as I said above, I agree that hybridization works better for the token deck than it does for the ramp deck. Drafting token enablers in your ramp deck leads to sloppy drafts, but drafting a few big finishers for your token deck is pretty much fine. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's *optimal*, but it's certainly not bad.

Token bias by Felorin at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 17:41
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I will freely admit, I'm nuts for tokens and am just teaching myself to draft the more ramp-oriented decks well. I got a two crusher, pelakka wurm and gigantomancer deck my last draft that was pretty sweet. But I still find myself agonizing over whether I need to push myself to take Overgrown Battlements higher. I took a Heat Ray over one battlement, then I hesitantly took an Ondu Giant over the other one I saw, since my removal was split between red and black (and I also had two Dread Drones and an Emrakul's Hatcher). Needed the lower-drop acceleration and early blocking the Battlements could have provided, though. Did 2-1 with the deck, and if not for one mistake in round 2 it mighta had a shot at 3-0. I am grabbing crushers a bit higher than I used to, and appreciating it.