Embracing Legacy
It seems WoTC got themselves a New Year's resolution for 2010 late last year which, simply stated, said they are going to be bringing Legacy to MTGO. Legacy has been gaining in notoriety amongst the WoTC folk it seems, and the Star City Games $5,000 tourneys are probably not hurting that notoriety at all. Of course there are many ways to spin this kind of news: One could suppose that WoTC simply wants to bring the popular gaming option online, or perhaps they feel they aren't getting a big enough piece of the Legacy pie and want Urza's Saga to sell really, really well online this year. There were a lot of different ways to go with this news, and ultimately, I might write about many of them – but what struck me as the most interesting and newsworthy portion of the news was the almost instantaneous way the community seemed to jump on the secondary market concerns that bringing Legacy to MTGO would cause. Tell me if any of these sound familiar to you:
 |
| "I'm not paying for these" |
"Seems like they'll have trouble with Exodus cards so scare"
"No way am I paying $240 for Force of Will and $40 for Daze!"
"I'm not sure how big of an impact it will have on card prices when there are so many cards still missing"
"People are going to need those cards to do their Legacy testing"
There are more of the same if you look around I'm sure. What struck me as a consistent through line in these type of comments was that there were certain cards that were bound to be a bottleneck for Magic Online, and to some factions this would make playing online unpalatable on price alone.
Now I'll admit that it had probably been a year, perhaps even two, since the last time I took a really good look at the landscape of the eternal paper card market. In many ways I simply took these knee-jerk reactions as a sort of truth. Force of Will is expensive. Exodus cards are hard to get. There were definitely cards missing. However, being a slightly enterprising individual (read: I'm not above buying extras of cards I think will go up in value) I started to question the logic behind these "truths". First and foremost I got an indicator that that there were certain cards – important cards - that were similarly more expensive in paper than they were online. At which point I knew I had a research project on hand. Exactly which is more expensive (competitively speaking) – Legacy Digital or Legacy Cardboard?
The question of course, is much harder to solve than simple addition, but that seemed to be the only way to go about it. A completely comprehensive search of every card in existence would be foolish, as so many cards simply never need to be purchased to be competitive, and of course, price changes are happening all the time. I could re-write this article in perhaps two or six or 12 months and it would be possible for each iteration to come up with a different answer. So I simply decided to avoid such difficulties by rephrasing the question: Which is more expensive if you wanted (and could) start playing right now (competitively speaking) – Legacy Digital or Legacy Cardboard?
With the hypothesis being set, I had to come up with an easy to use method of gathering data. In this particular case, I went with two very well-known (perhaps the biggest in their business) purveyors of Magic Cards – the aforementioned Star City Games for Paper, and the host of this very site, MTGOTraders for online cards. I understand (skip this part, Heath) that you might be inclined to believe those sites to be misrepresentative of the actual going prices for cards in their respective platforms. Whether or not you believe that to be true, I submit that, if you believe it to be so, feel free to reduce the prices given later on by whatever percentage you feel is necessary, but then I implore you to understand that it's my belief that these two sites, if they are overpriced, are at least equally so. As such, they are good enough for the experiment. Note that I used NM (near mint) prices only for paper cards – not heavily played or slightly played values – only fair – digital cards don't suffer degradation.
Another issue that cropped up was what to do with those cards that are available in paper but not online? (There is no such thing as the opposite for tournament legal cards) The only fair method I found was to assume that the online card would be exactly as expensive as the paper one, and was therefore a wash in terms of deck value. Largely I believe that would be a negative on the scales for online, but that presupposes sales of Urza's Sets and Master's Sets will be fairly good (most of the missing cards are either in or would be in those sets). Other cards, like Submerge, might be more expensive as most people expect sales of Mercadian Masques to be terrible, but by and large I felt online got a bit hosed in that department.
 |
Might be hard to get -
who wants to play Masques? |
Lastly, I had to decide what I determined was going to be called competitive. In order to keep the experiment plausible for me to finish before the chore of data collecting became insurmountable to the boredom that would result in collecting it, I decided to use decklists from the latest
SCG $5K Tournament.
Ok, by this time you are probably getting impatient with my ongoing blathering and would like something of substance. Not one to deny instant gratification, I'll quickly give you the Legacy Decklist that is cheaper in paper than it is online .
…
Get that? Exactly
Not Found. It's 404 baby.
What happened? Force of Will and Daze are sooooo expensive online! How could not a single deck be less expensive in paper?! Well, first, I suppose I should give you the totals. Rather than clutter the article with 16 + 1 decklists and the individual breakdown, I'll simply include the Excel spreadsheet I used to track the data.
But for simplicity's sake, here are the costs of each of the decklists in the event
| Place |
Deck |
$ SCG |
$ MTGO |
| 1st |
Zoo |
$834.00 |
$421.75 |
| 2nd |
38 Land |
$1191.25 |
$626.25 |
| 3rd |
Fish |
$969.50 |
$683.25 |
| 4th |
Imperial Painter |
$1002.00 |
$381.25 |
| 5th |
Fish |
$533.25 |
$442.75 |
| 6th |
Fish |
$518.00 |
$426.00 |
| 7th |
Threshold |
$1109.75 |
$707.75 |
| 8th |
U/W Tempo |
$755.98 |
$509.75 |
| 9th |
Imperial Painter |
$987.50 |
$336.75 |
| 10th |
Dredge |
$189.00 |
$126.25 |
| 11th |
Fish |
$485.50 |
$420.75 |
| 12th |
Fish |
$514.50 |
$420.50 |
| 13th |
Aggro Loam |
$1029.75 |
$736.25 |
| 14th |
Dark Zoo |
$956.50 |
$484.50 |
| 15th |
ANT |
$603.25 |
$419.75 |
| 16th |
Countertop |
$1333.25 |
$853.25 |
| 19th |
Dream Halls |
$505.00 |
$435.75 |
 |
| Ummm... small difference. |
Obviously, the top 16 was missing some decks, like Enchantress or Belcher or probably a number of other decks. But first thing to note was that even the decks sporting 4x Force of Will and 4x Daze were still cheaper online. There is a general answer to why paper decks came out on the high end – paper mana bases are more expensive. The biggest offenders were fetchlands (Onslaught and Zendikar) , which currently run about 3x more in paper than they do online. Next up were the dual lands, which also run about 2-3x the price, especially the duals in MED3. And of course, the format's most ubiquitous land, Wasteland, ran a cool $25 - $15 more than online. Then there were the ridiculous cards, like
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale weighing in at $250 in paper and $1.50 online, and
Imperial Recruiter hefting a large $150 price tag as cardboard, but only $1.75 online. And sure, Force is nearly double what is offline – but then since you need
Standstills,
Aether Vials and
Umezawa's Jittes to play Merfolk and they are all for more expensive in paper, all the savings is lost.
So apart from individual decks, which you might possibly be able to slap together in cardboard if you scoured eBay and found a list with all the right cards that are more expensive online (Scepter Chant, maybe?), let's take a look at it from another angle. Let's say you didn't just want a single deck to play in Legacy, but to start a Legacy collection.
In order to be able to make every deck out of those 17 decks (and without needing more than the maximum number of cards in a deck – so if the most a card appeared in any deck was twice, like Vedalken Shackles, we'd only count it twice) you need to spend $5484.75 for a paper collection and $2958.5 online. That's $2526.25 or 85% more for your paper collection. You might be able to nickel and dime your way into a cheaper deck in paper, but there is no amount of cost savings measures that any reasonable person could take to save that much money (much less that couldn't also be applied online to the same effect).
There are some holes in the experiment, obviously. For one thing, currently extended season is in swing and all the extended Tier one cards which also happen to be good in Legacy are more expensive at the moment. I know this a hugely driven up the price of cards online like Engineered Explosives and others, but I'm not sure to what degree the same thing has happened offline, so it was a measure I was unable to control.
Likewise, because there is no current Legacy offering online, cards that are Eternal only online (7th, IPA, OTJ, OLS) might be cheaper simply because they see less play – however, if you look through the list of those cards, they are either very inexpensive all around (cards like Kird Ape and Wild Nacatl ), or they are heavily used in classic anyway (like Onslaught Fetchlands and Duals) – and we know from the prices of FoW and others that classic has no problem driving the price of cards. Hence I didn't consider that a large contributing factor.
So, the facts point at online being cheaper – queue the rush of players online, right?
Well, no, there's a problem there. You see, even though those are the current prices of cards, the price of those cards for people who already own them are effectively zero. While I hear a great deal about online being used for "Legacy testing" and other insinuations that the minute Legacy is released online it will suddenly have a huge following, this is grossly ignorant of the fact that while online is cheaper, it certainly isn't cheap. The people who own several thousand dollars worth of cards in paper are unlikely to a) sell them in order to play online instead or b) have the funds to keep up two separate collections. While it's possible some might be able to do either of those, expecting a large number of people to fall into either group would be foolhardy.
Not only are the monetary difficulties hard to overcome, there is still at least a sizeable faction of eternal players who think paying for digital cards is like committing economic suicide. Lastly, for these people, there still exists the resistance to playing in a format with decks that are sub-optimal from their Legacy counterpart because of the missing cards. You can't test against Land.dec if there is no Maze of Ith or Rishadan Port – it's just not the same deck.
In other words, the people already playing Legacy in paper aren't coming in droves to play online, either by addition or by exodus.
Another faction are those who are already playing online who will, by the natural course of owning cards that are no long legal in any other format, will turn to Legacy. My guess is, initially, these are the people who will make the first large contribution to the Legacy player base other than those who aren't already playing Classic. The most obvious time for these players to join is when Extended rotates in November, and another chuck of their collection (in this case, Mirrodin Block – a highly significant block) leaves Extended. These people have all the reason in the world to join Legacy at that time. It might also be said that they would choose to join earlier when the Extended season is effectively over in the spring – either time might see more members. However, in my experience, the people who are interested in leaving Extended for good at some point in the future are already playing classic, and our player base is, shall we say, barely enough to make the format go.
That leaves what I will assume is a very small group of people who are lapsed Magic Enthusiasts waiting to jump into the magic pool by say, buying a $400 deck and continuing to spend to build up their Legacy collection. It's hard to gauge how many of these people there are – whether they play online or not, starting with Eternal formats is not generally the way most people indoctrinate themselves into Magic.
I think the only conclusion I can reach from here is that whenever WoTC decides to open Legacy online, the move toward it will not be a gush of players joining the scene and instantly creating a vibrant Legacy presence, but more of a steady stream of players who'll consistently build the player base. Legacy is still too expensive - even online - for many players to jump in – most will have to wade into the pool. However, if those players are at all price-conscious, they'll be wading into the digital end of the pool when the time comes.
40 Comments
Hey Mike wb to Pure, haven't seen anything from you for a while. More food for thought. I wonder if Legacy really will make a huge difference for me and my collection. Currently I am up in the air about it. I was already looking forward to Urza's Cycle and it's brokeness but to be honest I probably won't end up with the money cards for that series either just as I don't have a single Exodus card. (The ones I want priced out of my range too quickly for me and I have yet to get in a TSE draft.)
5x fireball @ you.
You make a very good point about the overall format being cheaper. Although you should count Portal cards as "not available in paper" instead of at their exorbitant price. The Portal cards should be format warping, but practically they're not because they're physically unable to appear in concentrated numbers. Is this SCG event the first time that Portal sets have had two decks in the top-8? It's the first time I can think of.
The significantly more expensive digital cards are: Explosives, Magus of the Moon, Bridge From Below, Pact of Negation, Daze, and FoW. Layline of the Void and Progenitus are also a bit more online. Outside of that handful, digital is a huge discount. We might pay an extra $140 for a playset of FoW, but we save $160 on just the 8 cheapest duals used in a Zoo deck! Dual lands involving the color blue are about $30 cheaper each! Of course, Legacy players = old fogies. $60 isn't what people are paying for Underground Sea - it's what the card is 'worth' in a Juzam Djinn sort of way. That recent 14-year old finalist borrowed his cards. (Some of which were older than him!)
How about digital Vintage? Daze and FoW are still playable. But look at the paper prices of these cards: Oath of Druids (lol), Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, and Strip Mine. Ouch. Of course, the power 9 will be drastically cheaper and so it won't even matter. And how about our Mana Drains? People, buy Mana Drain!
Proving that paper Legacy is "more strangled" than digital Legacy doesn't prove that digital Legacy isn't also strangled. The paper cards might be worth more today, but surprisingly I suspect that there might be more of them. Since digital Legacy is more playable than paper Legacy I could imagine a revolution in the prices. I'll stop short of predicting it though. =)
@Katastrophe - I understand your last comment, but thankfully, there strangulation for the eternal formats in paper world rests solely on a reserved list that is non-existant online. Hence, any "revolution" - where demand completely outstips supply - can be met with rereleases. If Legacy suddenly became so popular online that MED2 Underground Sea was $100 a pop, queue up MED5 Underground Seas. Problem solved.
That being said, that particular problem isn't what the article set out to prove. Not much in the way of long-term predictions here. Merely a status quo update - since it seems a great deal of people are mistaken about the status quo.
Lastly, if I was to consider Portal cards "not availalbe in paper" shouldn't we then also consider Exodus and MED1 cards "not available online" :)
Sadly, not the case. Interesting fact - City of Traitors was the only Exodus rare in the decklists.
@Paul - If the subject matter of the article had concerned how the format will split or had anything to do with classic at all (ave very tangentially), It would be on CQ. I just think this kind of article has a better target audience here than my own site.
Ah I keep forgetting to go there regularly. I am a creature of habit and if it isn't in my remembered sites in firefox I often forget about the site until someone reminds me.
MED1 and Exodus are hard to find, but those sets aren't of the rarity that paper Portal is. Don't make a straw man. I could buy a digital FoW today, but a paper Imperial Recruiter is a tall order. His rarity is close to the P9.
I'm not arguing the supply issue because of price. I can afford the cards. I'm arguing the supply issue because I see a real supply issue. Digital cards should be and are cheaper because they're not reserved, there is no emotional attachment, and we're taking a risk on Wizards keeping the servers up. So out of thousands of cards, why are 10 or so select cards more expensive than their paper versions?
I'm about to go buy 3x Mystical Tutor. The Exiled version is a dollar cheaper than the Mirage version. I'm not complaining about the price - it's only $3! My issue is that something must be wrong with MVW and the way Wizards distributed it in order for the prices to be that way.
If you want to know what went wrong with MVW distribution, look no further than the fact you are trying to buy Mysitcal Tutors *now*. I had no problem buying them for $0.50 when they were in print. And I bought and sold a couple dozen back then. Mostly because no one wanted them except for the handful of us who actually played classic back then.
People didn't buy Classic sets because they don't think they'll ever need them - it's still going on today. There are many things "wrong" with the distribution of classic sets - mostly that the dreck in the sets far outweighs any cards that are useful in sets where they are still legal, which makes the few cards that are any good hard to get if they are rare. That's just supply and demand.
As for Portal cards being more difficult to find in paper than Exodus is online - that's probably very true. So? What's your point? That there are really hard to find paper cards?
I don't understand what point you are trying to make... are you just looking to complain that everything isn't readily available?
im impressed by the actual online price of dredge...i always though it would be priced like the rest of the decks...i may be getting into legacy afterall
The Bazaar of Baghdads aren't that much more.
Example Decklist: http://www.classicquarter.com/decks/deckview.asp?DecklistID=1740
very true for some reason i was thinking the bazaars ran more along the lines of $20.00 a piece which may have been the case when me3 was first released but at only 8 a piece its much more affordable.
Gee thanks Danger.......Thanks alot, as if we didn't have enough dredge decks floating around, now at that price every Tom, Dick and Harry will shuffle up and deal lol.
Seriously.......great article, I am pleasantly surprised to say the least, I thought prices would be much closer.
Either way, prices are still to high. The availability of playing a game online anytime you wish makes it much more appealing to the older crowd such as you, myself and most of the rest of the classic community.
Do you think due to this fact that legacy online will eventually supercede paper?
This question is probably difficult to answer, but do you think maybe the prices of the current online legacy decks are just currently cheaper due to lack of overwelming interest in the format. I am assuming there are more paper legacy players atm than classic players online. If this is true and if legacy does take off online these prices will increase overtime. I know you stated in your article that you can't compare future prices, but personally I think that still needs addressed.
From your article one could draw the conclusion that since prices online are so much cheaper than paper I should then shut my mouth and stop complaining about the cost of digital cards. I guess the real question then becomes do we think in the future the prices will remain reasonable or will they increase by that 85% margin?
Regardless of where one stands I think we can all agree holding a physical card carries more emotional weight to a person than a digital one, so shouldn't paper cards be more expensive than digital ones?
Just playing the devil's advocate here, personally I will never play paper, sold my collection right after the set formally known at "The Fallen Empires" came out, currently it is known as "The crap in a box" imo. Either way I still think prices are to high, impact the player base to a negative degree and would love to see those exodus cards and other take a slight dive.
I'd say it is too dependent on too many variables to tell.
For example, There is Legacy Pager, Legacy online and LEGACY. If Legacy becomes more popular online, will that raise online prices a lot? Sure. Will it come at the cost of the popularity of Legacy in paper? I'd guess no - in fact all it might do is *raise* the popularity in paper, in which case the cardboard prices will raise as well - and we're right back where we started, except LEGACY as a whole is a lot more popular.
Keep in mind I'm talking about perspective here too - in terms of pure numbers, the paper community dwarfs the online community on an astronomical scale. 100s of thousands of Force of Will exist in paper and maybe somewhere in the realm of a couple of thousand maybe online - and yet online is worth twice as much - just to give an idea of the scale we are talking about here. Where I think everyone's fear is centered in on a massive swing in the terms of the scale. If the online community who want Force of Will for competitive play make up, say 1% of the paper community who want Force of Will for paper, and there is a swing of 1% of the paper community to online (either by addition or switching), Force of Will doubles in demand, which theoretically doubles it's price. The only part of the article I think made any kind of prediction in this case is the swing will not be even that big to begin. Long term though, that kind of swing to online is very easily possible for Legacy - maybe more.
Also, and I'm not he best person to explain how this works, but a very convoluted set of strategies and market forces for something like an eternal format will tell you that *some* high priced cards are actually good for the format. There is more to it than simply this, but the main point is that having some high priced cards means that there is a attachment (beyond pure enjoyment) to the format that keeps the player base stable. That's much more important to a format that doesn't rotate to one that does. If you want a dissertation on the subject, you'd have to first let me interview the grandmaster of market forces - a Mr. Worth Wollpert. Their is a threshold point where cards start to crossover into the "ridiculous" area - which exists at a different point for all people, but definitely has a point where the community is unhealthy as a result. Vintage, of course, suffers so badly from this that they just pretend to have real cards, but the Legacy cards that I think are ridiculously priced (like Tabernacle and Imperial Recruiter) thankfully aren't staples of the format and fit in only few decks. I don't thikn any of the cards online are currently at a ridiculous level, but more importantly , I don't think WoTC thinks any of the cards are currently at a ridiculous level. Thankfully, if they should get there, there isn't a reserve list hampering WOTC from a) returning health to the meta game and b) making more money.
bring on the dredge!!
my opinion to imping,
i would think that cards will have to rise online to at least semi mirror papaer cards.It happens in std, block, and extended. the only reason it hassent happened in classic is there is no paper equivalebnt to compare prices with. Once online legacy is a popular format, and by popular i mean at least a few times the player base of classic. ( I think we will need close to a thousand people playing olegacy competitly) the prices of cards should start to synch up. Now this dosent mean that daze and fow will suddenly drop, as there are supply issuses, just like why tabernacle wont skyrocket. But things like standstill, aethervial, and almost all uncomons in general from the older modo sets (including new old releases like mvw, tse, uuu) should start to see an euqilibrium with paper sets, and if we have that many people playing legacy theres a fair shot we will have an addition hundred or so players that play classic/vintage. When there are that many people clamoring for duals to win events with, will we start to see a rise of underground sea? its like 70 bucks in paper and i think undervalued at 30 online.
also i have no time frame in mind here, cant predict how popular legacy will be. this is just how i feel things will work if/when we reach that player base.
also online legacy ptq season would almost undoubtly push things into the stratosphere. 100 dollar fow again?? 50 dollar duals??
just my 2 cents.
"also online legacy ptq season would almost undoubtly push things into the stratosphere. 100 dollar fow again?? 50 dollar duals??"
WoTC would either be completely insane or absolute geniuses to even attempt such a thing - especially early in the lifespan of Legacy online. Which one, I don't know - sounds like an article in itself, best written when Legacy actually gets here. I nominate you to write it, Whiffy!
Given what you know fo WOTC is that really a question? Of course they are insane. They will totally launch Legacy tournaments the moment that format comes online.
Also, in an earlier response, you mentioned WOTC could help control prices by issuing rereleases. Given that WOTC won't even sell older packs, something that will cost them zero dollars to do and only has the opportunity to increase profit for them, on what evidense are you basing the idea that they would even concider a rerelease? When MED3 came out I was expecting them to reissue MED1 and MED2 so they could all be drafted together. They didn't. I was unemployed during MED1 so I don't own any of those cards and I was on vacation during the, like three days, they sold Exodus packs. I really do want to play Legacy, but the prices, on a minimum wage income, basically say "not in this lifetime."
Also, paper magic is a good example of WOTC reluctance to do reissues. Sure they have core sets, but how many times have the original duels been put in core set? I looked at M10, they weren't in there. They also were not in 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 10th. Even people like Mark Rosewater have stated that they have no opinion or concern about the secondary market on singles, which is what we're talking about here. And why should they? They don't sell singles, they sell packs. That's where they make their money. Why should they care what the price of FoW is?
Prices are a big issue here, and I am glad you didn't take the line I hear from so many other writers. That line being, "Well if you can't pay the price, then I guess you can't play," and then blame lack of participation in classic events on the players and not on the insane prices and scarcity of cards.
As a personal example, I have a friend that wanted to get into MTGO so he could play some classic games and extended. When I told him that the MTGO store only sells Standard packs, he was upset, and when he looked at the price of duel lands and FoW's, he decided to stick to paper magic. I think this proves your point about legacy players not making the trip over to MTGO, which is sad because our community could use the people.
That being said, as long as WOTC refuses to sell old packs and tournaments continue to pay out in useless prizes, I can't really see any reason for people to start playing Legacy on MTGO.
I won't respond to your whole post, but you seem to be missing information on how rereleasing cards works. Tantamount to any conversation is understanding what the reserve list (http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/products/reprintpo...) is in paper, and how it affect the rerelease of any new versions of those cards.
And by tantamount you mean paramount I assume. :D. But I think he was saying that the casual person looking at WotC's reprint policy may get the wrong idea about based on what they have done with paper, particularly without being into mtgo at all. Or maybe not. Just my guess. If I am not mistaken cards have been reprinted off the reserved list a few times since it was made. Essentially they can move cards off of it any time they want. They choose not to for the most part because after Chronicles there was a huge outcry. (Well this is MY limited understanding of the history any way.)
Understanding the reserve list, and why it was created, is effectively the same as understanding why WoTC reprints cards. That link explains it very well.
Incidentally, you are slightly off. The Reserve list was made in response to Chronicles and to 4th edition. The only cards ever moved off of it since 2002 as far as I know, were the non-rares back here http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/rb29 I don't know of any cards that have ever violated the policy, and that policy seems entrenched now. It did shift around consistently before that. A good article on history is here: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/16737_Insider_Trading_Should_Wiz...
And blau's point was essentially that WoTC doesn't care about the secondary market. That's a very left-handed comment, and I challenge anyone to get a WoTC person to admit that at face value. For example, to say they don't care would mean that if mythic rares were only put in in every 40 packs instead of every 8 and Banesalyer Angel sold for $250 they wouldn't really care, so long as they sold the same (or more) packs. That's ludicrous, of course, because the very notion of doing so would affect their pack sales, but even if it were possible to make that scenario happen, I guarantee you that's not how Wizards works.
The disconnect here is that people somehow think that just because a card is no longer in print that it's value is meaningless to Wizards. The price itself isn't nearly so important as the participation. Even people who play Legacy *still buy new cards* - and that's where it connects. If a huger number of overpriced cards are keeping people from playing the format at all, then it's WoTC's problem - a community of people wanting to play a format but can't because they are too expensive = bad. Wizards is very much into community building because it very much affects their sales - even if that community isn't primarily concerned with playing Standard/Block/Limited.
But if the price of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is keeping a lot of people from playing Land.dec, that is NOT a problem for WoTC - either go find another competitive deck to play (of which there are many) or good for you for having a $250 card.
In other words - big community = good. Small community = bad. Individual prices of certain cards are not nearly as important as how many people can afford to play the format in an enjoyable manner.
I think we're both arguing the same thing here, but I used a bad example. Yes, I forgot the duel lands are on the reserve list. I am not suggesting that WOTC reprint things off the reserved list. My arguement is about cost. Some competive cards simply cost too much for a new player to get into the format. MTGO is the perfect format to allow players to play formats they couldn't play in real life. If players had the ability to just go buy 9 or 10 packs of MED1, sure they probably wouldn't get the 4 FoW they need/want, but it would give them some cards they might need or could sell. I still don't have any Hymn to Tourachs since they cost $3.50. Not an overly expensive price, but still high enough to make me think about it and maybe devote my money to cards I can get more use out of (ie: can go in other decks). I agree with you a big community would be good, but it will never happen without access to fair prices and cards.
As for your arguement about Baneslayer. I don't want to bring up the whole mythic rare debate again. There are whole forums dedicated to that, but Rosewater explained how and why Mythics are distributed. http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr334
As someone who spent 7 years working in a game store I can tell you, the mythic rares are very similar in distribution to Yugi Oh!. And, while it is not directly stated in his article, one can infer from the article as to why they added mythics. Mythics are designed to sell packs. Chase rares DO increase pack sales because of the notion that "I can't afford to buy a $25 Ajani Vegeant, but I do have $5 in my pocket and I could buy a pack and hope I get one." That logic seems flawed, but trust me, it works. If they were 1 in every 40, people wouldn't care about them and not be encouraged to buy packs. With 1 in 8, your chances are much better. If WOTC wasn't in the business to sell packs, they wouldn't sell packs at all.
However, I am confused about your arguement here. You claim WOTC cares about the price of singles, but then you say,
"But if the price of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is keeping a lot of people from playing Land.dec, that is NOT a problem for WoTC - either go find another competitive deck to play (of which there are many) or good for you for having a $250 card."
Which seems to fly in the face of your earlier statement that WOTC would have a problem with $250 Baneslayers. That quote say they wouldn't care. My arguement is that it SHOULD be a problem for WOTC. How do you encourage players to join a game when the barrier to entering the game is so high? I think ImpinAintEasy gave a great example. $1000 just to get started? That's crazy. Forget that we are Magic players and go ask a person off the street, "Hey you wanna play this game? It's really fun and will bring you a lifetime of pleasure. Oh, but I'm gonna need $1000 up front before you can even start to play."
As a matter of fact, it appears, whether they realize it or not, that WOTC is having a problem with expensive Baneslayers. There are 5 gamestores in my area and all of them have seen Standard participation drop off by over 50% in the past year to year and a half. When I ask players why, the answer I usually get is the cost (of cards)is too high. What could WOTC due about overly pricey Baneslayers? Not much. M10 has already come and gone. Their only real option would be to ban it. That would decrease the need for it instantly and might encourage more players to come back to the format. That would be the most ridiculous option (although they did it to skullclamp to get people to stop using it). Or maybe there will be cards in Worldwake that will be better than it so players put down there Baneslayers.
We can sit here and argue about where WOTC loyalties lie. We can say that they make magic cards to strengthen the game build better play environments. We can believe that their end goal is to create a fun game for players. But that would be a VERY naive way at looking at things. WOTC is a business and businesses are designed to make money. How does WOTC make money? Buy selling cards which they put into packs. At the end of the day it all comes down to selling packs. Yes, even legacy people buy new cards. Of course they do. If WOTC didn't design cards for legacy players that would be an entire market they would be losing out on.
From the prospect of selling packs, it boggles the mind that WOTC does not put every set for sale in the store. There is no real reason as to why I can't buy invasion packs from the store. It costs WOTC nothing to post those. There is no real inventory and the cards are non-redeemable, so give me access to them. Will it hurt the secondary market? Maybe, but it seems unlikely. You might see the price of Pernicious Deed drop a couple of tickets.... maybe. They have been running MD5 sealed and draft events lately and the prices of cards from those sets has not changed in a noticable way. I haven't found a bot yet that is ready to sell Ravagers 4x for 1 ticket. I keep hoping.
I said WoTC cares about the participation of the FORMAT, not the prices of certain choice singles. If there are no or very little competitive options at a price that an acceptable community, WoTC cares. Tabernacle at $250 isn't stopping people from playing Legacy. And while you say locally X places are not working out, Standard participation online has never been bigger, despite Baneslayer's inflated price. So WoTC has nothing to worry about in that regard - they do care about the market - but only as it pertains to the pariticipation in the format, not that card X, Y, or Z that you really like is expensive.
If the price of online duals suddenly quadrupled, WOTC would probably care - The price of THOSE drastically affects the participation levels in Legacy. The price of Pernicious Deed or Orim's Chant would not.
But I'd like to take the time to break down your last paragraph:
"From the prospect of selling packs, it boggles the mind that WOTC does not put every set for sale in the store. There is no real reason as to why I can't buy invasion packs from the store. It costs WOTC nothing to post those. There is no real inventory and the cards are non-redeemable, so give me access to them.""
Yes, there is. Because if you didn't know that eventually they'd be removed from the store at some point, you'd probably have less of a rush to buy them. Believe it or not, WoTC was considering leaving MVW packs at the store for all time, but after almost 3 years of Mirage the results were conclusive - it didn't get them anything. Leaving packs up at the store is NOT a cooperative plan with focusing attention on cycling standard cards, nor is it commensurate at all with even a small part of the game remaining collectible.
There are costs associated with every option, not to mention the problems WoTC has already stated they have with new customers being overwhelmed by options at the store and then regretting purchases of packs for drafts which rarely or no longer fire - in fact, it's why they cut off sales of classic sets after just two weeks.
"Will it hurt the secondary market? Maybe, but it seems unlikely. You might see the price of Pernicious Deed drop a couple of tickets.... "
No, in practice it probably wouldn't hurt the value. But then, if the price is just a couple of tickets difference, why do you care to have Apocalypse packs back in the store? Just go buy Deeds - it will be be cheaper than buying packs.
"I haven't found a bot yet that is ready to sell Ravagers 4x for 1 ticket."
That's because they know there are people willing to pay more for them
Seriously - that last paragraph amounted to nothing more than "I want it cheaper - give it to me".
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And you wonder why I said that i don't see a rush of people joining Legacy online. It's not cheap and it's not getting any cheaper.
It's just still cheaper than joining legacy in paper.
[quote]Also, paper magic is a good example of WOTC reluctance to do reissues. Even people like Mark Rosewater have stated that they have no opinion or concern about the secondary market on singles, which is what we're talking about here. And why should they? They don't sell singles, they sell packs. That's where they make their money. Why should they care what the price of FoW is?[/quote]
Yet they quite obviously DO have concerns, or else they would rerelease expensive cards (like duals) regularly to increase pack sales.
Also note this quote for the online game's reprint policy...
....damn I can't find it, I'll have to paraphrase (used to be my sig on the official boards)...
Magic Online Reprint Policy: "Once a set has gone from the Online Store, Wizards will never put that set on sale again"
So while this does not prevent FoW reappearing in MED5, it does prevent MED1 etc being put on sale again, ever. This is why they used sneaky means to get more IPA online back when its scarcity adversely affected online Extended.
Wizards have been here long enough to know that collectability and value retention is what made the game a success. Re-releasing any cards or sets undermines both and must be very varefully considered. Existing players get annoyed and leave the game, as they lose trust in Wizards. Potential new players shy away as they can see no return for their investment if the collectability is compromised.
I think you are missing another important part of why standard cards sync up with their paper counterparts (price wise) much better than eternal ones: You can turn std. cards into paper ones, you cannot turn eternal cards into paper ones. This makes a HUGE difference in the price of cards on the secondary market.
I was merely trying to preempt any argument that the article was biased one way or another by the prices of the sites I used for comparison. If anything I expected more people to tell me that the SCG prices were not representative of the paper market, rather than your prices not being representative of the online market - which I obviously think they are or I wouldn't have used your prices :)
Not sure if this is true across the board but I find MTGOtraders prices to be slightly lower than the market at any given time. At least on cards I am interested.
'Rather than clutter the article with 16 + 1 decklists and the individual breakdown....'
While the decklists are available elsewhere, it would be very nice to see the $$ breakdowns on each of those cards. Another article plz thx?
FoW is still the only barrier to me. I realize that there are many competitive decks, I like the ability to test all of them. The dazes will come; but Worth's repeated statements that MED1 (namely FoW) will NOT be rereleased have kept the prices high. I have met a number of people with 'extra' FoWs who would only sell at above bot prices because they feel safe that their hoarding won't be undercut. Merely the announcement of a possible rerelease of select MED1 cards and the price would drop significantly as those individuals would sell the extras.
But, I blame WoTC. FoW in paper was uncommon. In limited online its rarity would not have made a difference. If it were uncommon online in would be priced similiarly to Wasteland.
that is linked in the article. Look near the pic of submerge
I have no doubt in my mind that Legacy paper players will come to online play despite the costs.
Has anyone happend to see a thread on mtgthesource titled Beating Your Head Against A Wall On MWS?
It's a great thread on the stupidity of mws players and their lack of comprehension on the rules, not that mtgo will curb the disconnections/aholes those players face, but at least the rules can not be argued over and the chance to win packs piloting your fav Legacy deck 24/7.
Great article DL,this confirms what i was dreading: every new Eternal player will be playing Ichorid because of your breakdown of prices.
something along the lines of "don't know how many people out thiere will be selling paper to play online or will be spending $400 to get in. I can name 4... and thats just here. Online is so much cheaper and as we age as magic players, getting together reg for tournaments becomes less realistic, where if i have a few free hours at home and get the itch... then im instantly playing magic..
So you got me thinking about this whole price thing. I have a buddy who just started playing the game. He has initially started playing pauper mostly because he is just learning the game. He has a huge interest in playing classic since that is what I play and he likes the card interactions from the tourney room games he has watched. He has seemed to take a liking towards thresh type decks (trust me I didn't convince him in anyway lol).
So I decided to take the time today and breakdown these three decks UGB, UGR and UGW Thresh.
After my research here is what I found:
The Current UGB List I am running would cost him $796.05 using Heath's prices because he is da man!
I then took the UGR list and subtracted the cards he would already have, this would cost him an additional $100.30
Then I took the UGW list and subtracted what he would already have, this would cost an additional $104.09.
So Grand Total for him to be able to play all 3 version of Thresh is: $1000.44
Oh by the way these were only basic lists and none included sideboard costs (I'm looking at you Leyline).
I know that the cost of online is cheaper than paper, but when I present this list to him tonight he is going to flat out laugh his butt off.
This is exactly why I think prices need to be lessened. I am not saying giving cards away is necessary, but seriously 1000 bucks to only play 3 version of thresh without sideboards.
I also know dredge is cheap, but seriously dredge SUCKS, plus he doesn't like that mechanic.
My point is this........prices like these do NOT encourage new players to go out and buy cards with the sole purpose of becoming competitive in an already established format. It is extremely intimidating for him to even fathom spending all that money when he has a wife and kids to support.
I guess my next project will be to do price comparing on RDW since it seems to have reared its ugly head again. Maybe even pox, that should cost less than 400 I'd think, then again it doesn't have the merit of thresh nor does it make my heart tingle!
out of curiosity as someone wanting to get into the eternal formats, what is the big drawback o dredge decks? I knwo there tends to be a large amount of hate towards them in sideboards, but what changed to make it not the powerhouse it once was?
dredge i daresay should never have been allowed to tap dance on classic, yea sure it might win 80% of game ones, but know that almost every classic deck is running enough hate in the board it just flops around, also classic has adapted to the presence of dredge with things like
md helm/line in oath
helm/line decks
silver bullet hosers that can be tutored up in the md like, yixlid jailers, crypt, relic, wheel of sun and moon and trap.
however dredge is a hard deck to play correctly, and a player that actually fully understands how dredge wins and loses both g1 and sb games will have an advantage on almost any opponent. I have seen some sick dredge players just wipe the floor with turn 0 lotv and crypt.
Actually I'd say Dredge is one of the easiest decks to play in Classic. Once you play it a bit, you relaise there are only one or 2 decisions you ever need to make. There are only 3 levels you can pull....Ichroid back into play (if you run them), Therapy, or Dreed Return.
After turn 1 the deck doesn't really offer any other decisions to think about. And with Bazaar, you don't even have to think in turn 1 any more.
Still 200$ to play both red and white tresh sounds good
No successful modo bot is going to have prices more that slightly above the prices of other bots. SCG are quite a lot above e-bays prices.
Biggest drawback of dredge decks imo are they are unfun to play or play against. From a card standpoint there can be tons of hate directed their way. Wasteland, Pithing Needle, Leyline of the Void, Extirpate, Wheel of Sun and Moon, Ravenous Trap, Ghostly Prison, Propaganda.........Did I miss any? But the biggest reason is the first I stated. Most people don't only play decks to win, if that were the case I would think dredge would rear its ugly head more often. I will give dredge players some credit though, I don't think its is the easiest deck to pilot, much like storm it requires precise decisions, again imo.
It's not just 200 for additional thresh, like I said, not including sideboard cards, plus you have to have spend the original 750+ in order to play those color combinations. Once you get the deck skeleton you can venture into Bant for right around another 90 I am assuming, add Nobles (32), add Progenitus (9), add Natural Order (33), Meddling Mage (12), Pridemage (less than 1?). Once you get that shell venturing into other decks isn't that costly.......it's getting the original shell of 750 that is a huge hill to climb.
Wait for Extended season to end! We're in the middle of a period of high demand right now. Progenitus was 3.5 tix when Alara Reborn was new. All of those cards are Extended legal. This article is talking about cards that are specific to eternal formats.
I know I am talking alot, but I'm bored. Further exploring the realm of classic online (I know it's not legacy), we can find RDW is a really cheap deck to venture into for a new player
Take this list ran by eddie112 in a classic DE on 1-16-10
17 Mountain (1)
4 Wasteland (40)
1 Strip Mine (10)
4 Keldon Marauders (.50)
4 Chain Lightning (1.60)
4 Fireblast (10.00) - Seriously 10 bucks, dang
4 Flames of the Blood Hand (5.00)
4 Incinerate (.60)
4 Lava Spike (.48)
4 Lightning Bolt (.80)
2 Price of Progress (5.50)
2 Relic of Progenitus (.10)
4 Rift Bolt (.48)
2 Volcanic Fallout (.80)
SB
4 Pithing Needle (3.60)
4 Pyroblast (2.80)
3 Pyrostatic Pillar (1.20)
2 Relic of Progenitus (.10)
3 Smash to Smithereens (.09)
So basically for about 84 bucks you can run RDW, which btw has had some 4-0 and 3-1 showing in the DE.
RDW was one of my original choices but with the prevalance of Iona and Oath decks running mono seems like its asking to be blown out...unless oath just is over-represented by the amount of coverage it has gotten.
You can get that information at CQ. OAth is the most represented Deck in the format amongst placing decks in DEs and PEs