Classic is the final frontier of eternal formats. This alone attracts the interest of cowboys from other formats, but the price drives them away. One misconception of classic are the prices. The format is relatively cheap when you invest, but players often do not know what to invest with, or how to invest. Today we’ll look at ways of investing into the format while dispelling other misconceptions of what the format is and where it should be. Two of my close friends online, TheBizzar and M E L K O R, decided to tackle the format with success. Each took a different approach to joining the format in a budget friendly manner. Like most formats, classic has expensive cards, but unlike other formats, the prices of their cards are stable due to the lack of rotation. Here is how they got into classic.
Misconception one: You need Force of Will to be competitive in classic.
FOW is an extremely powerful solution to almost any problem in the format. With that being said, it is not what the format revolves around. The format is flexible to any style of deck, and often times awards the stronger pilots instead of the best decks. M E L K O R, a very strong magic player decided to let his piloting skills speak for themselves. Those who are familiar with him probably are the same ones battling it out in the two-man ques. He knew that FOW limited his budge, so he invested his money in other cards. (Lion’s Eye Diamond) was where he started. The downside to starting with LED deals with the lack of arch-types you can build; however, LED is normally the only expensive piece of these very competitive decks. Also, cards used in the decks are often re-used in other decks, allowing for a more budget friendly approach.
Time to brush off those math skills, as that is all Belcher requires. The goal of this list is to get enough mana to Goblin Charbelcher your opponent to death, or generate a storm account against the control decks by killing them with goblin tokens produced with Empty the Warrens. This deck provides solid turn one and two victories almost every time. LED allows you to dump your hand, while floating mana as you Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Demonic Tutor, or (Spoils from the Vault) on the stack. It’s very important you make sure you’re holding down control while you cast your tutor on the spell, or else you won’t be able to sacrifice your LED while your tutor is on the stack. Starting out with this list, you already have a viable deck in the Classic/Legacy split expected to happen during the release of Urza’s Saga. Vampiric Tutor and Demonic Tutor are a great core to start your journey into classic. Any deck using black mana tends to play these very powerful spells. Tinker in itself is the new and affordable Stifle + Phyrexian Dreadnought combo in classic. It can be used to fetch out Platinum Angel, Darksteel Colossus, or Inkwell Leviathan. Lotus Petal, Dark Ritual, Chrome Mox, and Mana Crypt are also played in a variety of decks. Now after you’ve piloted your Belcher deck into the money via de’s and two-mans, you should have enough to afford another combo deck. This next deck will transition nicely from what you already own in the belcher list.
AdN has a variety of options to its disposal. Taking the face value of what the deck is capable of can be a fatal mistake to its pilot. Ad Nauseam can be cast at instant speed, thus applying pressure on the slower control decks. Necropotence is your back up plan if AdN doesn't resolve. Keep in mind that you are a storm deck, and you're playing 3 copies of Tendrils of Agony. I actually like a copy or two of Mind's Desire on the sideboard to deal with the control decks. Adding more fuel to the fire makes your storm more potent to deal with against them. You can also use your Tendril's to flat out kill them without needing to use AdN. Some of you may also not be able to afford these dual lands just quite yet, but that isn't a problem at all. Replacing the Underground Seas and Scrubland with Gemstone Mine, City of Brass, Watery Grave, and Godless Shrine should be friendly enough to the wallet. Eventually you'll need to purchase the shocks and dual lands, as they are crucial for any future you want in classic. The final deck list I'm going to show is a glimpse of storms raw power.
The Classic Storm aka TCS shows the unlimited power storm has against control. While this deck is definitely better than the other two previously mentioned, it does take skill to play. Skill is an odd word to say there, so I'll break it down. If you can't pilot the other two decks above comfortably, than you won't understand how to use this deck against its matchups. Playing storm in itself is a skill. So when you feel comfortable with your storm skills, this will be the natural progression. Mind's Desire can break through Force of Will due to the multiple copies of the card. Lotus Petal doubles up as a mana fixer and mana accelerator. Your goal is to get the storm count up while playing around disruption. A GIANT misconception with this deck involves you having to play everything in one turn. Giving yourself a clock and sticking with it seems to be the most comfortable trap to fall into. This is not a solitaire deck. You will need to react to the game state and disruption. My advice is use your weapons to draw their hate out, than once you've trapped them, unleash a desire with a storm count of four or five. Read your opponent as well. Save your (Brainstorms) to counter act their Duress and Thoughtseize. Ponder will allow you to stack cards on top of your deck to avoid hand disruption.
Against control decks using counter magic, try feeling out their hand by testing the waters with Necropotence or Tinker. Duress is your best weapon. It allows you to develop an early game plan against their hand, while taking out one of their tools to beat you. Force them to play around these cards, than blind side them with your initial plan of victory. Amount as much mana as you possibly can to stay out of Daze range. This is where you want to develop a plan as the game resembles a chess matchup. Aggressive decks are the easiest matchup. Give yourself a clock for life while gauging their hand by how they play, how many lands they have, and what lands they fetch for. For instance, their hand size to lands dropped is very relevant. Duress will help you gauge your life total. Keep mindful of Wasteland and Strip Mine. Often times before board this is the only way Zoo and RDW can race you. Hold off on popping your fetch lands. Often times players won't take them into consideration as life loss. This can mess their math up a bit, and force them to play more creatures instead of the proper burn. This should be an easy matchup for you if you understand what they board. Prepare your sideboard accordingly to what will help you against the meta at the time.
Next on my agenda this week involves cards we should be entitled to for classic. Let me clarify this: This is CLASSIC not VINTAGE or LEGACY. The minute we become those two is the minute our format will die. I'm from the old school of gun slinging. I'll bring technology I think is ground breaking in the format every time I play. The fact every set released warps the meta, well to me that is the excitement in classic.
Misconception Two: We need the Power 9.
For those of you who aren't familiar with Vintage, here is a quick run down of the Power 9. These cards are the core of most vintage decks.
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Yeah, they are really fun to play with. I'll break them down one by one and explain why each should or should not be online. I know I'm about to take some real heat from the majority of players but just hear me out.
Black Lotus: My good friend Denis and I were discussing how this card could change the entire meta. Both of us had valid points, but at this time Black Lotus is just another mana source for combo. Mind you combo will always be around, if we were to get Lotus, I'd almost be in favor of a complete outright ban of Yawgmoth's Will. At this time though, Black Lotus of course can be used in every deck to speed the turns up, but that is in fact its problem. It is too fast for us, and would make the card worth too much. This would be a horrible time for the mighty lotus to be introduced. I hope WOTC won't introduce this card until the Mask block. My verdict: Not until we see what Yawgmoth's Will does on its own.
Ancestral Recall: Probably the most powerful spell of the Power 9 in my humble opinion, I don't think this card should ever see printing online. Yes, control would adore this, Combo would fall in love with this card instantly, and even playable in Zoo. Another card that is an auto includes in any deck at the moment, and certainly worth splashing an Island for, I feel it could damage the meta to the point of who can have an answer for this card first. Even at an auto-restriction to one, the card is certainly too powerful until after the Mask block. Why do I say that? Misdirection says, "I'll draw those three cards!" My Verdict: Hold off until the Mask block.
Time Walk: At first I was on the fence with this. Time walk is very powerful but then again, how much of an impact could it make? Control could use it, but I think control wouldn't need it just yet as there aren't combo control decks until we get Oath of Druids. Combo should use this, but I'm not sure if it's going to help against the control decks it really lacks against. Aggressive Zoo variants on the other hand could splash blue for this. This is where I'm actually on the fence. Imagine Zoo buying an extra turn to beat agro? Yeah I like that to free up the meta. My Verdict: Let's see how powerful Oath is, but definitely should be included in Med 4.
Time Twister: Another great combo tool, Time Twister would definitely be welcomed by me. I'm would most certainly enjoy seeing Time Twister online. My Verdict: With Mind's Desire and Burning Wish still unrestricted, I'd hold off until each got restricted. Another auto inclusion in Med 4.
5 Moxen: I'm an avid vintage player and I hate moxen. I hate unbalanced free mana that allows combo its unfair advantage over control. If any of these were to be printed, I would suggest Mox Pearl. I like the idea of stacks becoming viable. Anything to help a prison deck enter the meta smoothly is a plus for me. Another deck arch-type should expand and help classic grow as a whole. My Verdict: Mox Pearl should be in Med 4. The rest can wait until after the Mask block. The reason I'm interested in waiting until after the Mask block is due to the fact I really want to see how the broken cards from the Urza block will interact with what we have.
I really enjoy the idea of classic being what it is, and I'm going to push hard to have it remain the third eternal format. I'm not against seeing the Power 9 introduced online either. I'd like one day to play with them online as I do in paper. Introducing each to accommodate the format to me is more intriguing. I feel that it would be the proper way to play the format by keeping it fresh and innovative. Well PureMtgo.com readers, I hope you've enjoyed another rant of mine. Join me next week as I discuss how my good buddy TheBizzar used his collection to enter classic as we'll explore a profitable way a STD play can enter the format right now. Also I'll explain another ten cards we don't have yet that should or shouldn't see printed in MED 4. Until then, San Diego, SUPER CHARGERS: CHARGE!!!
36 Comments
Just wondering why you blantantly choose to ignore that mindbreak trap just came out?
Mindbreak could be very good it can exile the whole stack of tendrils/mind's desire better than stifle
Misconception number 2 doesn't seem so much like a misconception about classic, but avenue to address an opinion about what cards you want or do not want to see in classic. It also has nothing to do with the current format.
If you want to go down this path, the more philosophical question would be if Power 9 cards are released via MED, should classic include them or should it diverge from all available cards (sans Gleemox). Or, what is the role fo Classic on MTGO as Legacy and Vintage become closer to reality. I don't see a misconception here, if anything, the misconception is about the equivalency of Classic and Legacy/Vintage and how Classic is evolving into Vintage.
Barriers....
Cost is a barrier, but I think your article actually contains my biggest barrier to classic:
"This deck provides solid turn one and two victories almost every time."
While cost is a barrier to Classic, even if I had unlimited funds, the concept of turn 1 victories being common place would keep me away from classic.
Note to classic writers, if you want to grow the player population, provide a clear concept of what makes the environment fast and affordable methods of dealing with the speed of the format. Discussion of turn 1 victories is a turn off for the majority of players, especially since the only way I know of to stop them is to top deck a FoW. That makes for a silly format from my perspective.
I tried getting into, Classic, cost wasnt even an issue, although I do refuse to pay $60 for FoW. Honestly, I just found it BORING! If you aren't playing Dredge right now, you aren't playing to win. And Turn 1 or 2 wins get old quick, even if its u or your opponent doing it.
Cost is a barrier, but I think your article actually contains my biggest barrier to classic:
"This deck provides solid turn one and two victories almost every time."
This is the same thing people think of vintage. It is not all first turn wins, although it can and does happen. It is a misconception that people who do not play the format have.Watch the replays in the DE's.
Just wondering why you blantantly choose to ignore that mindbreak trap just came out?
Because it has not yet made its way into a top 8 in any of the eternal formats nor is it likely to.
Yes classic most likely will be overshadowed by the sheer numbers of legacy/vintage players in paper whom will love to be able to play their favorite formats online. The revenue for WotC is too great to deny in terms of eternal players and while classic is fun to me, it has no comparision to the eternal formats as it is now a super legacy/junior vintage format. The majority of players whom play said formats will not miss classic. I am more than sure there are more players that would rather play legacy/vintage than classic.
Any part of the P9 would find its way into almost every deck, there is simply no good reason not to run those badboys. Looking at vintage fish decks they even pack moxen and lotus for the first turn Null Rod.
Good article and i am really starting to look forward to these little rants of yours more often.
For the time being I don't want classic online to become vintage. It will eventually and that kinda bums me out. These two decks can just win on turn one or two and thats the point, You want to win yes? If you want to play control and win well playing these will teach you how to play against them in the future with control as you'll be familiar enough with classic. The Misconception 2 is actually one thats ment for the classic community. Almost every day people think this format will die without the power 9.
Oh sorry ranth, Yea, minbreak trap is okay....until it gets duressed. I'm not inlove with the traps yet, I've played them and they seem just okay in situations and for chalie, Next week I promise I will build a cheap control deck that doesn't use fow. There are two realllly powerful decklists I forsee, and again this is just a beginner, it might seem boring now, but give it a couple of weeks. When you start pulling your funds together, than you'll be able to see you can afford fows after your wins :D
Im surprised that you didn't immediately have a nonFow Control deck available to prove misconception #1. It seems from your comments about Charbelcher and the other hot decks du jour that Classic is all about needing FoW to stop the combos, or flipping a coin if you are playing combo yourself to see who goes first and wins. Channel/Fireball/Lotus was not fun to play against in tourney back in the day (particularly since some people gummed them together :p) and turn 1 combo is no better now. Yes you can play Mana Drain and Daze and hope for the best (but that is still a heavy investment imho) but it is still a coin flip without FoW. Build a nonFow Control Deck, bring it to a Classic tourney and win with it to show us differently. In fact make it as budget as you can just for the fun of it.
Don't make it budget, please.
Just try to make an affordable control deck that actually works fairly well.
Affordable works :) I just want to see this misconception proven to be false.
i hope they turn lifetime rewards into the p9
so instead of force of will you "must have" lion's eye diamond? (present in all 3 decklists).
Dredge is probably the most cost effective and competitive choice right now, being essentially a full powered vintage deck for around 150 tixs (rough estimate).
LED is half the cost and just as good. You also have a very very good matchup against dredge with these decks.
hey give me a price range of exactly what I'm working with, I'll try to come up with something, and I won't cop out and give you dragonstompy. Just tell me what your budgets are like, next week I'm going to show you a control deck that doesn't use FOW, its something you can easily transition from std to classic, but if you guys want to give me a challange, I'm up for it, just note 150 bucks may not be classic tournie worth but i'll try!
For me personally around 250$. I have cards like Tarmogoyf (bought it at 25), but outright refuse to buy cards like FoW, Vindicate, Chant and such.
I can do 250 I think, it might be a little more, it might be a little less. It is going to be competative. The one thing I do want to say though is that FOW mighty be included in one of the decks around 400 but lets see if I can get a coupon to discount the deck, I'll work with heath and we'll see next week!
First, I Like the attempt here GLIB.
I believe your assertions on FoW are correct. In fact, the data shows it. For those of you keen on looking up winning decklists, head over to www.classicquarter.com and you can look up every winning decklist for yourself.
If money is a problem, then money is a problem. For those of you who want to stay competitive in Classic on a budget, there will always be an option, but I think you'll find that there are almost always a couple of problems with that goal.
First, is that by limiting yourself in terms of budget, you might be limiting yourself in terms of deck choices. Cards are expensive when they are the most efficient at what they do and everyone wants them. In Classic, a lot of those cards are NOT IPA-forward. They exist in the past and so MEDs and Pre-IPA sets make the supply low. But if that's OK with you, then you still have another problem.
With limited deck choices comes limited meta. If you keep yourself to budget options, you are going to have to constantly pick up new decklists to adjust to a changing meta. So let's say right now you are looking at an MBC deck because it's budget. Then Exodus rolls out and you have to face a lot of Iona Oath, something that, very likely, MBC will be powerless to stop, since Iona will name black and destroy you. Now you need a whole new deck. Or you stop playing.
In the long run, budget options are almost never good for your budget. If you only plan for playing for a short while, then the choice is up to you.
Force of Will, Wasteland, Duals, Fetchs - these cards go into many decks and will most likely always be useful - never obsoleted.
And that is precisely why I don't play Classic, very well put. Katastrophe has a very eloquent counter argument below but I think you said it best. I hope someday to not have the constraints of a budget (or even have a budget that is a bit more reasonable) but while I do I will have to play other formats. I do have a UG deck that does reasonably well against lock/combo style decks but in general Classic Good decks just roll over it.
I disagree. MBC variants have been tier 1/1.5 almost the lifetime of Classic. They vary from "Dark Confidant beatdown" to "Pox" to Eva Green, but MBCish decks have and will continue to survive through Oath. In fact, Oath seems awful vs these decks. Extirpate, LLotV, etc are all pretty functional vs Oath while giving the Black decks time to win. I understand your point, but that was a bad example.
Misconception #1 - right on the money.
Misconception #2 - has NOTHING to do with your topic. I guess I agree that it would be interesting to see a format with Will but no Lotus, and Time Walk but no Ancestral, but what does that have to do with Classic? What does that have to do with people entering Classic? You wrote two different articles.
I'm going to add one of my own:
Misconception #3 - The game is decided within 3 or 4 turns.
Maybe if you don't pack disruption and instead play solitaire then it will be. Obviously no control deck tries to win that fast. If it did then it would be combo or aggro. People play decks like Zoo and Fish (or Merfolk). Not everything wins or creates a lock on turns 1-3 like Dredge. You might make your deck a little stronger by building it with a high threat density or by building it glass-cannon style, but you'll hate it. One, it's boring. Two, the way to improve it beyond that is to add disruption, which will make it weaker until you learn how to pilot it.
Interacting with your opponent is the heart of Magic. Counterspells like Force/Daze/Drain are one way to do that. But disruption also means Duress/Thoughtseize, Path/Swords/Condemn/Chant, Lightning Bolt, and Chalice and Needle. Part of the reason misconception #1 is true is because not every deck plays enough blue cards to make FoW worth it. But all of them play something else instead.
If Dredge is making you a sad planeswalker then chose maindeck cards that are playable against other decks, but awesome against Dredge: fog effects, moat effects, silence effects (stops Flashback), and Pithing Needle (naming Bazaar). RDW can play Volcanic Fallout. Tabernacle annoys the crap out of a lot of decks, but Dredge can't bounce it and they can't pay (assuming one Fog/Silence effect.) That's how you enter Classic. Also, buy the cheap cheap cheap MED3 duals right now.
Actually I don't Thanks for the recognition. I think misconception 1 is dispelled with the ever growing presence of decks that do not use FOW. Take for example the multiple versions of Eva Green I have piloted to pay out positions. M E L K O R was also able to pilot and extremely powerful Merfolk (Fish) deck that did not use FOW. Both of us are ranked in the top 100 players of Classic and I don't think either of us really pursued the rankings to get there. It just happened. BTW never, never, ever, never counter a Thoughtsieze or Hymm with a FOW. You loose 2 card (OK you get to choose the cards but what ever) and you loose the life. I love when an opponent tosses a FOW at a Hymm or Thoughtsieze by paying the alternate casting cost. I want the FOW out of your hand most of the time and the players saves me the fuss of losing 2 life on the sieze. Anyway, totally well thought out artical. Also could be mentioned that players should look at what they have from the non-classic formats and use that as a base for buying into classic. Basically that is what I did to field Eva Green (AKA GB POX) with the advice of the Lacky. Word!!
you guys are killing me on my articles next week lol.
they should print a card you can play for free by revealing a white card or a land that can produce white mana that says: If it is turn one or two and you would lose the game instead you do not lose the game your life total becomes 20, discard your hand and draw 7 cards, return any cards from the exiled zone to your graveyard and shuffler your graveyard into your library. then put cycling on the card for w or something.
once again it is not all turn 1 or turn 2 wins that is a misconception.....
vintage also does not end turn 1 or 2 though at the risk of sounding redundant.
it can and does happen but less often
a game usually goes some length of turns
god you people kill me if all games ended on turn 1 or 2 no one would play the format
the only decks that do have that capability: belcher,ANT,ichorid and the classic storm.
there are answers for those decks or otherwise it would be useless to play anything else and everyone would just play combo untill they were bored
I've been mucking around with a deck that YOU have devised with some great success in the 2 man queues as a counter-dredge strategy.
I forgot what cereal name you called it, cinnimon toast crunch? relatively affordable, doesn't run FoW and completely relevant in the current meta. Only thing I run into issues is against Zoo 'cause I don't have much a board against them, but they're merely a blip on the radar.
I used to play standard & extended quite a bit due to what I perceived as cost. Quickly I realized with set rotation that it is MUCH MUCH more cost effective to make the leap into classic for constructed play. I scrapped together a cheapo Pox deck and now the collection is brimming with bling. Burn (the version I run with mog fanatics & spark/hellspark elementals to remove bridge from below) & Pox (just black) are cheap & viable.
Whoops, I thought this was a penguin article due to the classic-naturedness. My apologies for the misnomer
while i apreciate it sir it twas not me, but another highly skilled classic pilot.
I fail miserably at piloting, once I crashed a plane!
Now that was chuckle worthy :D
it was a toy plane, I crashed it right into a car and like the thing caught on fire, it was kinda funny. My friend was all pissed at me tho lol.
Only 2 misconceptions in Classic. Guess that's pretty ok lol.
go to www.classicquarter.com and look up players of the year and click on BazaarofBaghdad look at all his top deck performances and notice 1 thing no FoWs. sorry for putting you on the spot BoB
His UW Fish deck top8s run playsets of Force of Will.
yes but all his other lists are fow-free or anti-fow ! his last e.tutor zoobox deck 4-0'd the event.it is like the man is avoiding fows on purpose
no he isn't avoiding FoWs he was challeged earlier this year that he couldn't come up with competitive decks and place without using FoWs in the decks during the 2009 classic player of the year race.
go to www.classicquarter.com and look up players of the year and click on BazaarofBaghdad look at all his top deck performances and notice 1 thing no FoWs. sorry for putting you on the spot BoB