Lord Erman's picture
By: Lord Erman, Nafiz Erman
Sep 08 2009 11:36am
4
Login to post comments
8244 views


 

ROGUE PLAY
The Art of Tribal Wars

 

by Nafiz Erman

Hello everybody and welcome again to Rogue Play. I couldn't be with you last week because I was on vacation. I will not arouse your jealousy by telling you how perfect my vacation was but you can be sure that it was very relaxing. And now that I'm back, I have tons of things to share with you but some are more urgent than others. I have some Kaleidoscope decks (as usual), I have some Standard decks and reports, there are two totally different subjects which I'm holding back since a very long time and there are also some (good?) decks I built for mymtgo.com's 100 Card Singleton tournament which brought me back into the format after almost a year or so. So yes, there are a lot of things to talk about.

But today I will talk about none of them.

Today I will talk about Tribal Wars. As I said, some things are more urgent than the others. And it's about time I write a few things about this format that I used to play a lot in the past, when it was an official and competitive format.

Let's get Tribal, shall we?

Some time ago I commented to one of AJ_Impy's The Art of Tribal Wars articles (this one to be exact) and said that the format needs some competition. AJ responded back saying that the format doesn't need competition and it's fine as it is. I most certainly don't agree. We sent each other some PM's and at the end he came up with a suggestion: I was going to write an article talking about the Spike side of the format and he was going to write one talking about the Johnny side of it. And after those two articles, the readers were going to decide whether the format should stay as it is or should become competitive once again.

And so dear readers, in this article I will try to convince you why I believe competitive Tribal Wars should come back. And tomorrow AJ_Impy will be with you and he will then try to convince you why the format is fine without competition.

And let us start!
 

Spikes Are Needed

The lifespan of a format clearly depends on more than one single fact but the most important one is this: The number of players playing that format. It doesn't matter how fun a format is; if no one is playing it, then it is as good as dead.

And let's be honest and accept this fact: Each and every format no matter which one and without any exception, is thriven by Spikes. They build decks and they not only play those decks but they get obbessed with those decks and test those and perfect those with only one single purpose in mind; to beat everyone else and to become the best. So Spikes determine the meta, Spikes determine the card prices, Spikes even determine what's casual and what's not.

Just because Spikes like to play Standard more than any other format, the moment Wrath of God left Standard, its price went from ~$11,00 to ~$5,00 all of a sudden. Just because Spikes love Classic and play Classic, WotC keeps printing digital versions of older cards under the name of Masters Edition.

Just because Spikes love Pauper so much and showed their passion and commitment to the format in the past, WotC had to accept the format and announced it as an official format with its own queues and Premier Events.


Let's summon some Spikes!

I can continue giving you tons of such examples but they will all lead to the same point. Spikes determine what's good and what's bad. Spikes determine what is to be played and what not. If you agree with Spikes, you will have lots of fun in a very large and active community. If you disagree with them, you will have to wait more than twenty minutes to get a casual game going in the Casual Room.

What I'm saying is very simple: If Spikes play a format, it will get WotC's love and attention. If Spikes don't play a format, it will eventually die. And right at this point, please allow me to to talk about Spikes in detail because the name "Spike" alone is not enough to explain what I mean by "Spike".

 

Subtypes of Spike

I want to share an observation of mine with you. WotC says that everyone playing this game competitively is called Spike. But I think that this isn't completely true because not all Spikes are the same and play because of the same reasons. I believe that there are two subtypes of Spikes; Achilles Spike and Agamemnon Spike.

 

Achilles Spike
This type of Spike plays competitively because of the competition itself. Achilles Spike wants to get better as a player. He loves to challenge others and to be challenged by others. He loves watching videos of well known pros playing against each other. He reads every article which he thinks will help him to get better as a player. He is obsessed to be able to play the "perfect play". Achieving that level is his prime goal.

Achilles Spike simply loves the thrill. He doesn't care about prizes or promos or any other such things; they're only good side effects. He likes to play and win the tournament regardless of prizes. The feeling of being triumphant at the end is all what Achilles Spike is looking for. Achilles Spike is the type of Spike who right clicks at his nickname on MTGO and looks at his ratings for over ten minutes with pride. Achilles Spike is the man of challenges.

Achilles Spike is also a true master of deck building. Actually it is Achilles Spike who creates all those Tier-1 decks. He looks at the meta, studies it throughly, patiently goes through all the options and then builds that killer deck which then shakes the meta and changes it radically.

Mikko Airaksinen who is that Finnish player and who first came up with the Time SieveOpen the Vaults deck, is a good example of Achilles Spike.

 

Agamemnon Spike
This type of Spike has only one motivation to play competitively; to win prizes.

Agamemnon Spike is the ruthless Spike. He only seeks to destroy you and to win. Innovation? Deck building? Challenge? Who cares?!?

Agamemnon Spike only looks at the glory. How many packs will he win? Is entering this tournament worthy of his precious time? Or should he try the other one which has a better payout? Oh and those two other formats which offer less valuable boosters are of course not even an option.

The same is true for some of the pros. Some are real Agamemnon Spikes and play this game mainly to make $$$'s out of it. Which one is the best deck? Fae? Good, then Fae it is. Agamemnon Spike doesn't care about the question "how" at all but rather concentrates on the question "how much" or "how many".

As you see, both versions of Spikes play to win but they have different purposes. Achilles Spike wants to be the best player. And thus, he is constantly seeking the answer of "How". Agamemnon Spike on the other hand doesn't care about it. He always looks for the best tournament worthy of his time.

Many players who are also pro or semi-pro Poker players are all Agamemnon Spikes. Agamemnon Spike doesn't tap his cards for nothing. He only taps his cards if the answer of "how many" or "how much" is satisfying for him.

And now we know the two subtypes of Spike, we can return to our main subject.

 

Fun Is Not Enough

What happens to a format if Spikes abandon it (or forced to abandon it just like in our case)? Only casual players play that format of course. Which is pretty much the current state of Tribal Wars. There are no prizes and this leaves Agamemnon Spikes out. Winning with a cunning Goblin deck against a casual Pegasus deck in the Casual Room, most definitely won't help Achilles Spike in his quest to become the best player and this also leaves Achilles Spikes out as well. And who do we have left?

We have two types of player left, Johnnies and Timmies, but mainly we have the budget players left. They like Magic and they want to play Magic but mainly due to their limited budget they cannot afford the money cards. And this means that there is no chance for them to compete in tournaments. And thus they collect cheaper cards and have their fun in the Casual Room.

And the other type we have is hardcore Johnnies such as Mr. AJ_Impy himself or hardcore Timmies. I clearly remember a Tribal Wars game I played against him during v2.5 days. Just because I knew he was a Johnny, I picked up a more Johnny and less Spike deck which was a  Shapeshifter deck I built around Morphling. Many players don't even know that Morphling exists on MTGO so I thought that building a deck around her would be interesting.

Anyway we played and at one time during the game, he clearly had the board advantage and he was going to win; or so he was thinking because I was holding a Damnation in hand. I played it, played a Morphling the next turn and then won the game. But AJ didn't like it. He didn't like seeing Damnation. Not because he cannot afford it but because it wasn't "right". I don't remember what he said exactly but he clearly wasn't happy with the game because I played a Damnation. I saw no problem in that; in fact the card won me the game. But of course of view points were different.

AJ is not the only such player of course. There are many such players. They have all the cards but don't play some of them at all. Such as Damnation because they believe that it is not "right". Their main goal is not winning but it is having a good time. And thus they limit themselves to the Casual Room and to casual decks.

But many players like to play their good cards in their decks. For many, having fun is not the only aim in a game of Magic (thankfully!!). Most of those people like to win too! And this is the biggest problem of Tribal Wars right now. Just because there is no competition, you can only play the format to have a good time. To have fun. To try the most weirdest of tribes and see if they are working or not.

And this fact leaves all of the Spikes out which brings me to the next point.

 

Spikes Won't Bite...
They Swallow Without Chewing!

I know that casual players hate Spikes. They want to avoid Spikes at all costs. I can imagine that bringing back the competition to the format would be the worst nightmare for those players. But that is a very unnecessary fear.

Spikes play Standard. Spikes play Extended. Spikes play Classic. Spikes play almost every format there is. Are you not playing those formats just because Spikes play them too? Do you stop playing Standard just because you hate Spikes? Do you sell all your Extended cards and stop playing it just because there are Spikes out there playing the format? Pernicious Deed is legal in Classic. What will you do now? Stop playing the format just because you're a casual player and can't afford it?

No. You don't do those things. You keep playing the format(s) you love. There are Spikes in every format and you can avoid them if you want to. Why all of a sudden it becomes so hard to avoid them in Tribal Wars? Why do Spikes frighten you in this format when you know how to avoid them in every other format?

I have the utmost respect for budget players. I have the utmost respect for Johnnies and Timmies. I can understand why they don't want to play against Spikes. I could imagine that playing a Basilisk tribe against a Tier-1 Zombie deck wouldn't be too much fun. But you know what? Spikes don't like that either! Spikes don't want to waste their time against a casual Basilisk deck, just like you don't want to waste yours against a Tier-1 Zombie deck.

 

Wasted Power

Tribal Wars has two categories; Classic Tribal Wars and Standard Tribal Wars but the Classic version is the most played one. And if we are talking about Classic, we are talking about power; raw power!

Grindstone Necropotence Force of Will

And Classic Tribal Wars is an excellent and very challenging way to unleash that power. But just because it is a mere casual format, all that raw power is wasted. I know that competitive Classic Tribal Wars is not for everyone. You have to have all those power cards to be able to compete. But luckily, there is already a group of players who already have those cards and playing them all the time; I'm talking about the Classic community of course!

Why not give those people a new way to enjoy their beloved format? They are already playing their "normal" Classic decks but that is the only way they can enjoy the real power of Magic. Let those people ponder how they can use their Necropotence in Tribal Wars. Let them give another format to enjoy their Force of Wills. Oh and some players, such as myself, who like Tribal Wars would also like to compete in the format and this will be the way for those to enter the realm of Classic.

Currently all the power of Classic Tribal Wars is wasted. Making it an official format with its own official tournaments will put that power into good use; Classic players will have another format to enjoy while others will be starting to play Classic Tribal Wars which will eventually lead them straight to "normal" Classic itself.

 

Prejudgemets

I just said that the power of Classic Tribal Wars is wasted. Interestingly, some especially and specifically don't like that power and want to keep it under control. To them, playing a Isochron Scepter / Orim's Chant deck in the format is completely wrong. And I cannot stop myself and ask this: WHY? Why is it wrong? 

First of all this is Classic Tribal Wars we are talking about here and this means that no matter what broken combos you play, you have to have twenty creatures of the same creature type in your deck. Normally Combo players don't like to have that many creatures in their deck. A few creatures for late game is all they pack (sometimes even none). But they just can't do that in Tribal Wars. You want Combo? Sure you can have it but then you have to build your deck in a totally different way.

And the problem is that just because you will pack tons of stuff to get your combo out in time and you will also have the combo pieces as well, you will have to dedicate a BIG portion of your deck to your combo. And no matter how "killer" that combo is, that will leave you vulnerable to other decks.

Or you may want to play Elves or Goblins and try to kill your opponent before he can even move a finger. This time you will have to dedicate a BIG portion of your deck to your creatures just because especially Elves and Goblins have tons of very useful creatures. And this then will mean that a single Pyroclasm or a Volcanic Fallout can ruin everything. Just because you are obsessed with your 1/1 pointy-eared creatures, a mean red mage can wreak havoc upon you and your tribe.

What I'm saying is this: Killer Combos or killer tribes eat up deck space pretty fast and leave you with only a few slots to pack hate cards. And considering there are no sideboards, each and every deck remains vulnerable to another type of deck. You can't fight against everything with your main deck. Especially not when you have no sideboard. And this fact obsoletes the first prejudgement; "there are broken and invincible decks out there". No. Apart from only a few, there aren't any.

Speaking of Orim's Chant, here's an old example how the idea can be executed in Classic Tribal Wars.

 

This decklist is from 2006 and as you see it has currently banned Umezawa's Jitte in it. Oh and the tribe is Wizards by the way. Now let's examine the deck. The main goal is of course to lock the game with the Isochron ScepterOrim's Chant combo. And once it has been done, the pilot plays his nowadays banned Umezawa's Jitte onto one of his Wizards and attacks for the win.

I believe this list is an excellent example of showing people how to convert well known Combo decks into Tribal Wars decks. But it also has another use. Can you see how vulnerable the deck is? Four Fire/Ices are all the removal it has. Do you still think that this deck is invincible? Do you think it can win against everything? Do you think it can beat this:

 

What we have here are the good old pointy-eared Elves. I searched for some Elves Combo decks on the internet and then saw one version playing Intruder Alarm and I added Progenitus to that list and the result is what you see above. The deck is incredibly fast and combos in a few turns. Oh and let me guess: Now you think that Elves are the real invincible tribe in Classic Tribal Wars. Really? Actually one of my favorite tribes is also one of Magic's most defensive tribes; Clerics.

Check this old deck:

Clerics
An old Classic Tribal Wars deck
Creatures
4 Auriok Champion
4 Beloved Chaplain
4 Master Apothecary
4 Soul Warden
4 Weathered Wayfarer
2 Benevolent Bodyguard
2 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
24 cards

Other Spells
4 Battle Screech
4 Glorious Anthem
3 Disenchant
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Chrome Mox
2 Worship
18 cards
 
Lands
3 Secluded Steppe
1 Eiganjo Castle
14 Plains
18 cards

 
Master Apothecary

 

This above is an excellent (but outdated) deck and today with the new cards, it could only get better with Honor of the Pure being the most significant addition. Do you see what this deck does? Do you see why it is superior to the Elves? Not every deck can break this defense and manage to get damage through. Even Progenitus would fail. You tap five Clerics and prevent that ten damage from it. Or better, you do nothing and your Worship does all the prevention for you.

Are we finished? Of course not! Here's another deck which is an excellent way of bringing Tooth and Nail into the format. 

 

This Shaman deck generates incredible amount of mana with an incredible speed and then casts the incredible Tooth and Nail to fetch some incredibly powerful creatures such as Sundering Titan which almost ends most of the games or Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. All of the pacifist tribes including the above Clerics are almost an auto win for this deck but at the same time it is very vulnerable to the first wizards deck I presented you.

So as you see all of those prejudgements about the format are false. The format is not broken. There is no such thing as invincible. No deck is better than all of the others. It's the good old paper-rock-scissors game we used to play in every format. Yes there are very powerful decks but that's the nature of Classic! Any format beginning with the word "Classic" is already powerful no matter what other words you put behind it. Be it Classic Vanguard or Classic Tribal Wars. They all are powerful. But powerful doesn't mean broken or overpowered or invincible.

 

The Whole Sideboard Issue

I'll keep this part short. Tribal Wars doesn't need a sideboard. Tribal Wars can't afford a sideboard. But that's the beauty of the format. That's the real challenge. That's actually what's keeping those powerful decks at bay and prevents them from being really broken.

Look at the Elves Combo deck. It can pack a great deal of Disenchant-on-a-Stick kind of Elves from the sideboard and kill any Affinity deck or decks that rely heavily on artifacts or enchantments. Or it can simply splash to White and add Burrenton Forge-Tender after sideboarding and shut down Red decks completely.

But I say this: Let those already powerful decks stay as they are. Don't give them the missing tools to become really invincible. I know that most of the players will not agree to this. I can hear people saying "How will we fight Dredge or Affinity or Combo without a sideboard?". Well, just hold on that thought because I will talk about in a second.

One other issue with sideboards is cheating of course. Even though the program and the coding can prevent you from replacing fifteen creature cards with fifteen noncreature cards, it cannot prevent you, however, from switching from one tribe to another. And now that's just plain wrong. You can even do some more absurd things like playing Mono-Red Goblins and then after sideboarding switching to Mono-Black Goblins considering you have the manabase to support both colors. Would it be nice? Would it be just? Wouldn't it be cheating? I will pack all my Anti-Red cards from the sideboard for the second game only to see that your Goblins have already colorshifted to Black!

So no. This format cannot afford a sideboard.

 

How To Work Without a Sideboard

Actually one lesson AJ_Impy told me about the format is this: In a format where there is no sideboard, your main deck will be your sideboard. To explain what I mean, please look at the deck below.

 

This Angels deck was once my beloved Standard Tribal Wars deck when Standard was RAV-TSP-9thED. I had a fair amount of success with this deck back then and actually AJ_Impy himself was the one who helped me build it.

Now do you see all those lone cards? Now dear reader, they ARE the sideboard! And do you see my Dimir House Guards? And they are my tutors. You should have noticed that all my important spells in the deck are four cost spells and I was fetching them with my Dimir House Guards.

Back then there was a Mono White Humans deck that was locking the game with Martyr of Sands and Proclamation of Rebirth. Against them my Dimir House Guards were giving me my Persecute. There were also Mono Blue Illusions. Against them I was winning with Akroma, Angel of Fury. They were simply helpless against her. Leyline of the Void was there against Dredge decks.

My deck above should help you to understand how to use a sideboard within the main deck. You just can't add four copies of every card to your deck in Tribal Wars. Not if you want to fight against everything. You should have a flexible deck. I believe that my Angels deck above is a good example.

 

Banned & Restricted List

To be honest, the current Banned & Restricted List looks fine to me. I'm sure AJ_Impy would have more useful insight about this subject but I'm happy with it. But the only thing I will add is this:

Do you believe that there are some really broken cards? Do you agree that Lion's Eye Diamond creates some really broken decks (I most definitely do)? Do you think that a FlashProtean Hulk deck built around some Slivers is too much for the format to handle especially without a sideboard? Do you believe that Unnatural Selection could be unbanned?

Okay cool, then say so! Tell WotC which cards cause serious problems for the format. Tell them which decks should never ever appear even in the most Spike-ish environments. I too believe that a few decks shouldn't be allowed to be played in the format and this may mean a few additions to the B/R List. But what I think is not important; it is what the majority thinks that matters.

Tell WotC what you think! Make your voice heard!

 

Standard Tribal Wars

Since now all I was talking about was Classic Tribal Wars but during the last of its days, the only officially supported version of the format was the Standard one and it was also the one version I was playing a lot. But of course that was before Lorwyn/Shadowmoor came and ruined the format. I like playing Tribal Wars in Standard but when Standard as a whole becomes Tribal Wars, it becomes unbearable.


I'm so fed up with this!

- "My Fae deck is unbeatable".
- "Not against my Mono-White Kithkin".
- "You guys are daydreaming. The best deck currently is my  Merfolk".
- "Wait until I ruin all of your mana base with my Druids and let's talk after that, okay?".

Now let's pretend for a second that you don't know anything about Lorwyn/Shadowmoor blocks. What would you think that those four people are talking about? Most definitely you would think that they are talking about Tribal Wars. But no! They are talking about Standard. Simply unbearable.

For me Standard Tribal Wars was always a sort of hideout. The Standard meta was full with Control decks, Combo decks and/or Zoo type of Aggro decks and when I was feeling bored of all those stufff, I was picking my  Angels deck and kicking some butt with it. I was winning with that deck as it was one of the Tier-1 decks back then and I was having a lot of fun.

Now that Lorwyn/Shadowmoor blocks are about to rotate out, it is once again time to look at the format. Even though the new set called Zendikar will push its own tribes such as Vampires and Merfolk and Allies (a new creature type), I don't (want to) believe that it could be worse than now.

For your information, the Orb of Insight shows that there are twenty cards containing the word Vampire, fourthy one cards with the word Ally, twenty cards with Merfolk and nine cards containing the word Elf. Also there are seventeen Goblins, six Angels and happily ZERO Faeries!

Of course we should wait to see what Zendikar offers us but I'm hopeful that we can again start talking about Standard Tribal Wars. Expect me to write a few articles in the future about this subject.

 

The Solution

I don't think that expecting WotC to start supporting Standard or Classic Tribal Wars (or both) all of a sudden would be too realistic. We, the lovers of the format, should do something. And we have Pauper as a good example in front of us. The players should show WotC that they love the format. And this only can be achieved through Player Run Events (PRE).

Some dedicated player or players should host the events. They should arrange the sponsors, they should advertise for their events everywhere possible and they even have to create a website to post results, decklists, dates of tournaments and articles.

Now what will happen if you announce that there is a competition? You will most definitely get the attention of Achilles Spikes. And what would happen if you announce prizes just like mymtgo.com did for their 100 Card Singleton tournament? You will get the attention of Agamemnon Spikes!

After each PRE, the number of players attending it will increase. The players will start building decks, buying cards for their decks and they will start talking about their decks and the format. Looking at the Standard Tribal Wars tournament back in 10.December.2006, I see that ninety six players have played in it. Where are all those people now? Ninety six is an incredible number! I would be more than happy if I see an average of thirty players playing in the first few tournaments.

I can't think of another way of bringing this format back to the sunlight. PRE's are the only solutions.

 

Summary

As I said, this format is in URGENT need of seeing the light of the sun again. As it is now, it is slowly but steadily losing the interest of the majority of the players. And you know what would happen if no one plays a format; it simply dies.

What I'm saying is actually very simple:

1- Organize PRE's and get the attention of all kinds of Spikes and get them back into the format.
2- Casual play simply won't grow the player base. Playing for fun is never enough for the majority of the players.
3- Casual players can avoid Spikes just like they do all the time. This shouldn't even be a concern.
4- You shouldn't be afraid of the power level of Classic decks. None of them are invincible.
6- The format should stay without a sideboard. All what players should do is to accept this fact and adjust their decks accordingly.
5- The current Banned & Restricted List for the Classic Tribal Wars needs to be updated, preventing some really broken combos from appearing in the format.
7- Let's wait a couple of weeks more to talk about the future of Standard Tribal Wars.
 

Well yes, those are actually all what I'm saying. Now it is the perfect time for you to make your voice heard. Say what you have to say now or stay silent forever! If enough people show interest, if enough people think the way I think, if enough people would say "We want our competitive format back!", we might as well accomplish something. That won't be official tournaments by WotC perhaps but the road will definitely lead to there. Just as it did for Pauper.

Tomorrow AJ_Impy will talk about the format as well and will try to convince you why the format should stay casual. As a veteran of the format, he will most definitely have many useful things to say so I would stop by tomorrow as well to read what he has to say.

Thanks for reading,

See you online
Nafiz Erman, aka Lord Erman

23 Comments

Tribal Wars by kalandine at Tue, 09/08/2009 - 13:04
kalandine's picture
4

Nice article and I look forward to AJ Impy's response.

I have never figured out where I fit in the world of Spikes, Timmys, and Johnnys, but I am an avid player of Classic Tribal Wars. I have decks ranging from a very Spikish Merfolk to Johnny-ish Illusions to a Timmy Spider deck. I really don't care what sort of opponent I face, but the game is more fun when I use a Merfolk or Faerie deck against I spike player rather than my Bears deck against Goblins. Though the biggest thrill is when my Bears beat down a spike deck (rare, but has happened).

I don't believe that I have ever been offended by any card an opponent has played, and I know I have played Wrath of God in the format. I have seen Jokulhaups and Inferno played in Tribal as well along with cards like Moat.

Before v3, I could find a game of Tribal at any time, and I could often find a Two-headed giant game of classic tribal. Now, I give up if I don't get an opponent within ten minutes, which means I give up about a third of the time I want a game. That is not good.

I think the first problem is the distinction be Standard and Classic Tribal. Get rid of standard. With the new Lords in M10, the definite existence of tribes in Zendikar, and heavy doses of tribes in Alara (birds, cats, humans, goblins, etc.), I think there is enough tribal opportunities in straight standard. I think WotC has decided to maintain tribal support within standard even outside of dedicated tribal blocks.

I don't have the time to dedicate to a full up event, but would have no problem if they existed and brought new players into the format. I think Tribal is a format that would most strongly appeal to Spikes with heavy leanings towards Johnny-Spikes and Timmy-Spikes to the point that their inclusion in the pool of players would not necessarily be a detriment to the format.

On your discussion of Spikes... Wizards has often discussed that the motivations behind Spikes (and Johnnys and Timmys) varies greatly, but the outcome of having Spikes around doesn't overly hinge on the motiviation. Your statement that, "WotC says that everyone playing this game competitively is called Spike," isn't really fair as you never call them anything but Spikes either. I also think that both Achilles and Agemennon Spikes can be deck innovators or net copiers depending on their skill set (deck construction, field analysis, tournament play, etc.). I think the biggest difference in Spikes is what could be referred to as the "Bully Spike". Bully Spikes are players driven to win at any cost, but not necessarily good enough to win in a highly competitive environment like Standard or Classic, and thus, Bully Spikes will find a very casual format and come in to beat up the memebers of that community and feel good about their accomplishments.

Bully Spikes, to me, are the reason to avoid seeking expansion of Tribal Wars beyond the current casual community.

Always willing to read up on anything Tribal Wars related and may yet get back to writing some article myself. Thanks for the read.

-Mike

i have always loved tribal by Shardfenix (not verified) at Tue, 09/08/2009 - 13:29
Shardfenix's picture

i have always loved tribal wars and since i started playing during onslaught i have always out of habit built tribal decks. I wish the format did come back to prominence. In fact ill even offer this...I have worked with MTGOtraders.com before in hosting PRE's(i used to host UPDC). If there was a large enough player base and i could find a healthy 20+ or so players. I would love hosting a weekly or bi-monthly PRE for classic tribal.

I'd play if it was at a by StealthBadger at Tue, 09/08/2009 - 14:20
StealthBadger's picture

I'd play if it was at a sensible time (i'm a GMT-er).

Bi-monthly by Rerepete at Wed, 09/09/2009 - 15:38
Rerepete's picture

/start nit pick

I take it you actually mean bi-weekly (every other week)

/end nit pick

Sounds interesting, and thanks for offering to host.

I'm going to be on AJ's side by Flippers_Giraffe at Tue, 09/08/2009 - 14:06
Flippers_Giraffe's picture

I'm going to be on AJ's side in this matter but want to point out that player run events and Wizards support are two very different things in my book.

Pauper was still fun and you could run casual decks in the events and still stand a good chance. When Wizards brought out the support then the as you call them Spikes appeared, with greater prizes on the line the decks went up that extra notch to push out any chance of a casual deck competing in these events.

I've never seen cards like Orim's Chant, Force of Will, Daze, Flash, Natural Order/Prog, Helm/Void etc in a casual Tribal Classic game, but we will if it's supported and I don't look forward to that day. I play Classic if I want to play with/vs those decks.

Whilst your angels deck does by StealthBadger at Tue, 09/08/2009 - 14:19
StealthBadger's picture

Whilst your angels deck does have a shiney "pre-sideboarded" 4 colour toolbox available to it, you cannot seriously be suggesting that this is a stable basis for a format? Every single deck must either feature a toolbox of some kind, or just give up on some of it's matchups? Yes, your deck is a good example of a deck making use of a toolbox, but no, that can't be a good strategy for a wide range of decks.

I'm of the opinion that tribal should feature a sideboard, and should check that your deck is tribal-legal after boarding, but does not neccessarily have to be the same tribe, after all, i doubt that there will be that many decks able to completely change tribe post-board. For those that are able to, they will have to be built pretty intellegently to abuse this, and it will be a deserved advantage, for giving up lots of slots, akin to a transformational sideboard (like tooth and nail used to use in standard, for example).

My main query with the whole format is that i really can't see anybody other than elves, merfolk, faeries and goblins winning in tribal classic. Their tribal support has just been way greater than any others, over the years. Personally, I'd be keenest to play extended tribal, which would have a lower cost of entry than classic, but a big enough selection of creatures to keep a range of decks viable.

On a side note, i did used to be in a competitive tribal clan, and had a lot of success with giants in TSP-Lor/Sha season. They're interesting, in that they were very strong in tribal (didn't have much game against faeries though), but almost useless in traditional standard as they just rolled over to decks that weren't rammed full of creatures. Maybe I'll post my list up later.

Thanks everyone so far for by Lord Erman at Tue, 09/08/2009 - 15:06
Lord Erman's picture

Thanks everyone so far for their comments.

@Mike:
You wrote "Before v3, I could find a game of Tribal at any time, and I could often find a Two-headed giant game of classic tribal. Now, I give up if I don't get an opponent within ten minutes, which means I give up about a third of the time I want a game. That is not good."

This is exactly what I'm saying.

@Shardfenix: I'm glad you're interested in this. Let's see how many people are interested in PREs.

@Flippers_Giraffe:
You wrote "I've never seen cards like Orim's Chant, Force of Will, Daze, Flash, Natural Order/Prog, Helm/Void etc in a casual Tribal Classic game, but we will if it's supported and I don't look forward to that day."

I advise you to re-read the "Spikes Won't Bite" part of the article. Basically there I say that none of the casual players should worry about those cards you mentioned. Cryptic Command is legal in Std but you don't see it that often in the casual room, do you? The same is true for this format as well.

@StealthBadger: My angels deck was a Std Tribal Wars deck and believe me, back then the toolbox as you say, was more than enough to solve all my problems. Mine wasen't the fastest deck around so instead of creating problems to others, first I had to solve the problems created by others and thus a sideboard within the maindeck was necessary.

Other much faster decks, such as the ones I presented in the article, don't even bother with that and this is perfectly understandable. It just depends on your deck and your playing style. I'm only saying and also showing people that it is possible to deal with different types of decks with the main deck.

LE

I see Cryptic Command ALOT in by Paul Leicht at Tue, 09/08/2009 - 19:23
Paul Leicht's picture

I see Cryptic Command ALOT in casual in all kinds of formats. Maybe CTW is different than all the other casual formats (I don't play it much) but Id suggest that casual these days means something different from the friendly gents games of yesteryear. Very little consideration for opponents goes on casual these days and I am not sure that's a bad thing. After all magic is really a spike's world at least online.

Speaking of spike archetypes, you mentioned the Agamemnon and Achilles types but didn't talk about the Oddyseus Spikes. You know the type. They play traps, lull you into thinking they are Johnnies or even timmies and then you commit to a shaky strategy thinking it is solid because of misinformation and bam! Dead. Sure those are the ones to really look out for. :)

Nice article.

hmmm right now i am in school by Shardfenix (not verified) at Tue, 09/08/2009 - 15:16
Shardfenix's picture

hmmm right now i am in school so it would probably have to be a weekend but possible times could be saturdays or sundays at 2pm EST...this should make it 11am on the west coast and i think roughly 5pm GMT...

I've been playing by Scartore at Tue, 09/08/2009 - 16:16
Scartore's picture

I've been playing Tribal since I joined MTGO. And i completely understand the position AJ took about your Damnation play. For a lot of players, tribal was the place they could go to play "casual" Magic. Where we could plan our games without $10 cards in mind. Since there is no "budget" format, us budget players are constantly at the mercy of the Spikes and moneybags out there, and for a lot of us Tribal has been a refuge from overpriced shenanagins.

On the Classic/Standard split, I think we need a bigger card pool than std for a competitive environment. Howsabout mirroring K-Scope and playing Tribal Ext?

Heh I thought that was by Paul Leicht at Tue, 09/08/2009 - 19:24
Paul Leicht's picture

Heh I thought that was Pauper. (The refuge for poor players that is.)

Congratulations, your article by Anonymous #65 (not verified) at Tue, 09/08/2009 - 21:24
Anonymous #65's picture

Congratulations, your article has succeeded in convincing me that Tribal Wars should never be allowed to become a "Spike" format again.

Pauper has... by Scartore at Wed, 09/09/2009 - 13:16
Scartore's picture

Pauper has a different problem. With next to no budget restrictions, there is almost no casual pauper. With thee the exception of players new to the format, just about anyone can get ahold of MUC or Slivers or Fish. Or whatever won the last PE. So there is absolutely no barrier to netdecking in pauper.

A link to the current B&R by StealthBadger at Wed, 09/09/2009 - 04:21
StealthBadger's picture

A link to the current B&R would have been useful. Last time I played, the wishes were legal. Is that still the case? I can safely say that they are as broken as something very broken in tribal.

Edit: alreet, it's here: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/TCG/Resources.aspx?x=magic/rules/tribal
Wishes aren't banned, so the format's probably still nuts. It seems like any effect which allows you to choose a creature type is banned though. Is Tsabo's decree really too powerful?

The wishes are legal, but by AJ_Impy at Wed, 09/09/2009 - 06:41
AJ_Impy's picture

The wishes are legal, but wishing in a timed game gets you nothing, especially now the exiled zone exists.

um you know in your list 6 by ShardFenix at Wed, 09/09/2009 - 05:08
ShardFenix's picture

um you know in your list 6 and 5 are backwards...

Very interesting by paul7926 at Wed, 09/09/2009 - 05:29
paul7926's picture
5

A very interesting read and I look forward to AJ's counter.

As a concept I like the idea of Tribal. My favourite deck of all time is goblins and I also hate Elves (as any good goblin should). lol

I'm a very bad deck builder so the rules of the format help focus my thoughts in a direction which helps.

I guess my biggest issue here is the power level. I'd like to have some good games with my goblins against the Elves, Clerics, Zombies, Merfolk out there. I'd also like to goof about with Golems, Myr, and other not so great tribes. Now if my goblins face your Myr it's not going to be fun for either of us. Same as if my Golems run into competative Merfolk it's pointless.

I'm not sure if making the format competative would kill off the more fun tribes. I don't play tribal wars at all at the moment as I only have the goblins built and I suspect that most tribal wars players are not going to be happy to see Mountain, Lackey, pass as thier opponents turn 1 play. I really don't want to make Tribal Wars un-fun for people who like to play casual games. Mind you there is the TP room for the 'big' tribes and the casual room for all the others. It should work in theory but there is always that big debate over what is 'casual' and what isn't and there always will be.

Having said that if the format is not to die off I do agree that support in some form or another is required. Perhaps even just starting a 2/4/8-Man queue would allow WotC to see what effect it has on the format without them needing to spend the effort of running PE's

I'm still undecided and waiting for AJ's take on all this.

I want to reply. by one million words at Wed, 09/09/2009 - 09:44
one million words's picture
3

This is a very thought provoking article, and one I really want to respond to. My response is going to be long, though, so I'll probably make it my Friday article (unless I write an MED III selaed primer, in which case look for it in two weeks.)

The short version - I think you are 100% wrong.

Spikes do not drive formats. Spikes drive the vast majority of players out of formats.

Your so-called "Achilles Spikes" are actually very few and far between. The vast majority of spikes are "Agamennon Spikes." On the other hand, by far the largest percentage of deckbuilders and innovators are not spikes - they are people like AJ who just build every deck they can think of. They drive innovation. Once in a while their decks prove good enough to win a PTQ and become recognized as Tier 1 decks, but that does not change the fact that they are the innovators.

I disagree most strongly with this paragraph:

"Spikes play Standard. Spikes play Extended. Spikes play Classic. Spikes play almost every format there is. Are you not playing those formats just because Spikes play them too? Do you stop playing Standard just because you hate Spikes? Do you sell all your Extended cards and stop playing it just because there are Spikes out there playing the format? Pernicious Deed is legal in Classic. What will you do now? Stop playing the format just because you're a casual player and can't afford it?

No. You don't do those things. You keep playing the format(s) you love. There are Spikes in every format and you can avoid them if you want to."

I have been watching and writing about both casual and competitive play for over a decade. I have seen many, many formats come and go. I can tell you this: You *cannot* avoid Spikes once they enter a format. Players *do* stop playing formats when the spikes arrive. In most cases, *the majority* of the players leave a format when the spikes arrive.

What spikes do is find the best decks, and play those. Repeatedly. If you play in hte format, you will face those decks. If you are not playing those decks, you will lose to those decks - because they are the best decks. If you find something that can beat them, then the spikes will adopt it, and it will become the deck you keep losing to. That's what happens when spikes enter a format. Any format.

I found the comments about the author not wanting to play current Standard TW because of the dominance of the Fae, Merfolk & Kithkin decks quite ironic. Those are the best decks that a spike-driven format can produce. That is what having spikes create. That is the goal that the author is arguing for throughout the article, and he is unhappy with the result.

When spikes enter a format, it is not just "budget players" that cannot compete. It is any deck that does not have the same power level as the best decks. All tribes are not created equal, and in a highly competitive format, the lesser powered tribes are simply unplayable. In a less competitive format, the percentage of players and matches in which you may face something "interesting," like Oozes or Pegasi, is higher. In spike-driven formats, those matches are few and far between.

And, no, in spike-driven formats, you cannot dodge the spikes. Not even in the causal room.

Yes, once Pauper was the format for a lot of players who liked to build strange decks. Those players could bring their 20 Bears deck into a pauper match and have a pretty good chance of enjoying the match. Then Pauper got competitive and suddenly, even in casual, those Bears just kept losing to Crypt Rats, or Golem Blue, or GW Slivers, over and over and over. The Bears players did what those players always do when the spikes arrive - they left. They went to play Tribal Wars, or RSH, or PPH, or any other format the spikes have not yet found.

You can either have a format with a lot of interesting / underpowered decks, or a format with spikes and a few Tier 1 decks. You cannot have both.

Anyway, that's the summary. I'll have to flesh this out a bit - maybe on Friday.

1- Shockingly and by Lord Erman at Wed, 09/09/2009 - 10:45
Lord Erman's picture

1- Shockingly and surprisingly Spikes also have a "taste". Spikes do not play a format just because there are prizes offered at the end. Spikes are not mindless robots who are attacking and consuming and exploiting each and every official format with prizes until it's dead.

2- "The author of the article" sees nothing ironic about his statements about the current state of Standard Tribal Wars. As he said above, Spikes (including the author of the article himself) are not mindless robots. If a format is not fun, they just don't play it. Prizes don't matter. Which of course proves that the so called Achilles Spikes are not "very few and far between" but on the contrary that they are the majority.

3- Another good example could be this:

WotC_Mike talks about Vanguard and why they are replacing it with Singleton Standard:
---Unfortunately, the Vanguard format has been being played less and less this last year. This has led us to decide to try another new format in its place. This format is code named "Standardton".---

So why is no one playing Standard Vanguard? It is an official format, it has its own tournaments and queues. So why the format is now promoting(!) to the casual status?

Because it is totally unfun. One totally unbalanced vanguard comes and dominates the meta until another even more unbalanced one comes. Totally and absolutely unfun. And now Spikes are abandoning the format. Which again proves that the so called Achilles Spikes are the majority. Because otherwise, no matter how broken, the Agamemnon Spikes would have continued playing the format just because of the prizes. But that isn't the case.

4- The author of the article finds it hard to believe that Spikes drive the vast majority of players out of formats. The author looks for example at Pauper and sees only an increasing number of players after it became an official format full with Spikes. If Spikes drive people out of the formats, then Pauper should have died a long time ago.

Seeing Spikes love to play Standard, Classic and Extended and seeing how many casual players are also enjoying those formats, makes it even harder for the author of the article to believe that Spikes cause people to stop playing.

5- The author of the article is totally aware that it is not possible that everyone would agree with what he said. Therefore he respects all other viewpoints. He also wants to thank everyone for taking time and commenting on his article. He wants to add that he really appreciates it.

LE

My Lord, sorry if "author of by one million words at Wed, 09/09/2009 - 14:05
one million words's picture

My Lord, sorry if "author of the article" offeded. "Author of my orinigal comments" was too lazy to scroll back up when I forgot how to spell Ernam.

Maybe we have a different definition of spike. To me, Achilles Spikes seem more like Johnies. Maybe if you make the definition of spike wide enough to include everyone, I'd agree.

The spikiest spikes I know are on the Pro Tour. They will play formats they hate, when the prizes are worth it, and don't play formats without great prizes. To them, it is all about the EV.

The EV on Standard Vanguard is actually pretty bad, given the up front cost of researching decks and the random nature of the format.

Back to defining Spikes - maybe my point is less about Spikes than the Teir One decks they bring with them. Once the Tier One decks reach a critical mass, the players who's goal is to build lots of new decks just keep losing. That's no fun, so they find another format.

This happened with Prismatic, and Rainbow Stairwell Highlander, and 100 Card Singleton, and on and on. At one time, each of these formats was full of random decks with a lot of players. Over time, a few competitive decks started dominating the tourney practice room, then they moved to the casual room "because we can't find matches in tourney practice," then the number of players in the format dropped to a hard core of tournament players.

Standard is the most common constructed format in existence - it is played at stores all over the world every Friday night. Pauper is the cheapest constructed format in existence. They are the entry level formats - and the constant stream of new entrants balances out the stream of disillusioned Johnies and Timmies the Spikes drive back into more casual formats. Standard and Pauper are exceptions. A better example are formats like Prismatic, paper 5Color, or 1-1-1 Emperor once the New Frontiers decks dominated.

To be honest the author of by Lord Erman at Wed, 09/09/2009 - 14:11
Lord Erman's picture

To be honest the author of the article offended a little bit. Anyway, anxiously waiting for your article this Friday. Just don't tear me up okay?

Oh and it is ERMAN :).

LE

Nice job to both article by onefinemess (not verified) at Wed, 09/09/2009 - 12:42
onefinemess's picture

Nice job to both article writers, lots to think about.
Being an uber casual/budget player I haven't witnessed much as far as the birth & life of new formats go, but I can sympathize with both points.

Orb of insight by Rerepete at Wed, 09/09/2009 - 14:56
Rerepete's picture

The orb also returns 13 for elemental, 17 for goblin, 12 merfolk, 9 elf, 6 angel, 11 beast, 6 cleric.