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By: one million words, Pete Jahn
Feb 17 2017 2:00pm
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State of the Program for February 17th 2017
 
In the News
Further Tweaks to the GP PTQs: Wizards has announced the return of open enrollment, qualify for the Pro Tour PTQs to happen on Sundays at GPs. In a reversal, if the format of the GP is constructed, the PTQ will be sealed. If the GP is limited, the PTQ will be Standard. Wizards also tweaked entry options, etc.   If you plan on playing at a GP, check it out. If not, this won’t affect you.
 
Online PTQ Schedule Changes: What might affect you is a change to the schedule of online PTQ preliminary events. The preliminary events will now occur on a fixed schedule, not the rotating schedule we have grudgingly accepted. Wizards announcement on this is here.  Beginning March 2nd, the following schedule will apply.
 
Constructed PTQ Preliminary Schedule (All Times Pacific)
·         Monday: 6 p.m.
·         Tuesday: 8 a.m.
·         Wednesday: None
·         Thursday: 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 6 p.m.
·         Friday: 12 a.m. (Thursday night/Friday morning)
·         Saturday: None (Constructed PTQ Finals usually scheduled this day)
·         Sunday: 3 p.m.
 
Sealed PTQ Preliminary Schedule (All Times Pacific)
·         Monday: 4 p.m.
·         Tuesday: 11 a.m.
·         Wednesday: None
·         Thursday: 7 a.m., 4 p.m.
·         Friday: None
·         Saturday: 3 a.m., 12 p.m., 4 p.m., 7 p.m.
·         Sunday: None (Sealed PTQ Finals usually scheduled this day)
 
Redemption Ends in June for Kaladesh and Aether Revolt:  Just a reminder – KLD and AER redemption are on the accelerated schedule Wizards announced last year. That means that redemption for those sets ends June 7th. The redemption window for older sets is longer. See the timeline below.   
 
The Timeline
This is a list of things we have been promised, or we just want to see coming back.   Another good source for dates and times is the calendar and the weekly blog, while the best source for known bugs is the bug blog which appears sporadically on MTGO.com. Most of the major upcoming events we know of are listed.  Not listed, but important: Wizards offers either one or two online PTQs each weekend, with qualifiers running the three days prior to the PTQ.
 
Recurring Events
Timing
Power Nine Challenge
Last Saturday of the month, 11am Pacific
Legacy Challenge
Second Saturday of the month, 11am Pacific
No Downtime
March 15th
Extended Downtime
(none announced)
Magic Online Championships
March 3-5, on Twitch.tv/Magic
Aether Revolt Limited Championship Qualifiers
February 15th - 21st
Aether Revolt Standard Championship Qualifiers
February 22nd - 28th
Aether Revolt Limited Championship
Saturday, February 25th
Aether Revolt Standard Championship
Sunday, March 5th
Current Leagues End
May 2, 2017
Amonkhet
May 2, 2017 MTGO release
Hour of Devastation
July, 2017
Modern Masters 2017 Edition
March 23rd on MTGO
Next B&R Announcement
March 13, 2017
KTK and FRF Redemption Ends
May 31, 2017
DTK, ORI, BFZ and OGW Redemptions Closes
November 2, 2017
SOI and EMN Redemption Closes
April 28, 2018
KLD and AER Redemption Ends
June 7, 2017 (yes, 4 months from now)
Flashback, Throwback Standard and CUBE for 2017
Wizards will be offering either a flashback draft league, a flashback Standard gauntlet, a CUBE league or prerelease / Release events each week.   Here’s the schedule so far.
 
Flashback and Such Rotation
Begins
Ends
Throwback Standard: Mirage – Tempest
February 22nd
March 1st
Invasion/Planeshift/Apocalypse Draft
March 1st
March 8th
Cube Draft (Cube format TBD)
March 8th
March 22nd
Modern Masters 2017 Leagues
March 22nd
April 12th
 
The new Flashback Leagues are still draft, and still you-keep-the-cards. They are 12 TIX / product plus 2 TIX / 120 Play Points. However, they are no longer single elimination. Now you play until you have three wins or two losses. Prizes are 150 play points for three wins and 70 Play points for 2 wins. The leagues run one week.
 
The Throwback Standard Gauntlet events provide a random choice of prebuilt decks from a past standard environment. These will function like the Pro Tour Gauntlets – you won’t need to own the cards. The entry fee is 10 TIX or 100 Play Points. Prizes are in Play Points: 150 for 3-0, 100 for 2-1, 40 for 1-2 and 10 play points as a bad beats award. 
 
Opinion Section:  My Paper Collection
 
The Madison area is great for drafts – on any given Friday a half dozen stores run FNM drafts, and several run drafts on other nights. Constructed is much less popular. Several of these stores run Standard at least once a week, but Modern is iffy and Legacy is really scarce.   I have not played in a Legacy event in years, and only occasionally in a sanctioned Modern event. At the same time, I need to replace the roof on my barn and redo the kitchen. That means I need to sell some cards.  I don’t really need a collection that lets me build at least the shell of every deck out there. (I don’t have all the rares and Mythics, but I did own a playset of pretty much every Modern legal common and uncommon. I also had playsets of many, many bulk rares that were unplayable in anything but the fun decks we used to build. I mean, having a couple copies of Ramirez DePietro was useful when I needed a Dread Pirate Roberts for my Princess Bride deck, but I don’t build those anymore. At least, not in paper.  
 
I decided to look at all the Modern decks I might actually want to play. Now I have played pretty much every deck and every archetype I have got my hands on, but there are archetypes I prefer, and those I don’t. I went through the decklists I have copied from events over the last year or so, and divide them into possibly playable, and those to avoid. I then copied all the decklists into an Excel file. A little manipulation later, I had eliminated the duplicates and had a list of cards I would need to play all the decks. 
 
Here are the decks I was interested in playing. 
Midrange control: Junk, Jund, Eldrazi Tron, 
Burn:  Red Deck Wins, Naya Burn,
Tron variants: GB Tron, GW Tron, Blue Tron, 
Control Decks: Grixis Control, Snow Red, Nahiri Control, Jeskai Control, Abzan Control
Combo Decks: RG Through the Breach, 4 Color Scapeshift, RG Scapeshift, 
 
And here’s the list of decks I considered and decided not to play:   Affinity,   Merfolk,   Faeries,   Infect,   Death Shadow Aggro,   Dredge,   Boggles,   Lantern Control,   Hatebears,   Soul Sisters / White Martyr,   Mono-green Aggro,   Lantern Control ,   UWx Midrange ,   Blue Moon ,   Gifts Control ,   Faeries ,   Reanimator,   UR Gifts Storm, Pyromancers Ascension,   RG Through the Breach,   8 Rack,   Puresteel Paladin and Abzan Company.
 
I probably missed some. We will see next week. And yes, I know Through the Breach is in there twice. I have not decided. In the paper world, a playset of Through the Breach is worth over $200. Not sure it’s worth keeping – I can always play other varieties of Scapeshift.
 
What makes this interesting, however, is that I do not need to keep the boxes and boxes of cards I have now. To play these decks I need playsets of just under 250 cards. That’s it.   The Modern card pool is tens or thousands of cards. The vast majority of them have no real value. Probably – and that can change. Most of the cards in the Puresteel Combo deck have no value outside of that one deck. You can say the same thing about half of the cards in Lantern Control. But most of you already knew this.
 
I am still working over the lists, but if I get them done, I may include the list here next week. In the meantime, if you know of another major Modern archetype I forgot, please mention it in the comments.
  
Cutting Edge Tech
 
Standard: Another week, another Standard GP. GP Pittsburg was dominated by various flavors of GB – GB Energy, GB Delirium and GB Aggro. Ryan Hare’s take on GB was all about +1/+1 counters.  
GB Counters
Ryan Hare, Winner, GP Pittsburg - 75 Cards Total
Creature
4 Winding Constrictor
4 Walking Ballista
4 Sylvan Advocate
3 Rishkar, Peema Renegade
2 Catacomb Sifter
4 Verdurous Gearhulk
21 cards

Instant
3 Grasp of Darkness
4 Fatal Push
7 cards
Enchantment
4 Oath of Nissa
4 cards

Planeswalker
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
3 cards
Vehicle
1 Aethersphere Harvester
1 cards

Land
4 Hissing Quagmire
4 Blooming Marsh
9 Forest
7 Swamp
24 cards
 

Sideboard
1 Appetite for the Unnatural
2 Distended Mindbender
2 Flaying Tendrils
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Ruinous Path
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Transgress the Mind
15 cards
Modern: We have a Modern GP coming up this weekend. I will not be playing, but if I were I might try out this deck.   Caleb Durward has been streaming this, and made a video over at CF. I’m not sure if this the real thing, but it would be fun to try.          
 
Puresteel Combo
Caleb Durward,  CF Video and stream - 75 Cards Total
Creature
4 Puresteel Paladin
4 Sram, Senior Edificer
8 cards

Instant
2 Noxious Revival
4 Retract
2 Swan Song
8 cards
Sorcery
3 Serum Visions
1 Grapeshot
4 cards

Artifact
4 Mox Opal
4 cards
Land
2 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Seachrome Coast
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Plains
15 cards

Equipment
4 Accorder's Shield
2 Kite Shield
4 Paradise Mantle
2 Sigil of Distinction
4 Spidersilk Net
4 Cathar's Shield
1 Bone Saw
21 cards
 

Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Echoing Truth
3 Path to Exile
1 Grapeshot
4 Silence
15 cards
 
Legacy: I keep thinking about getting Leovolds, in paper and online. Maybe. In the meantime, I might play something I actually own.
 
 
Vintage: The Vintage Super League has resumed. In the first week of play, we only saw one deck featuring cards from Aether Revolt, but that deck did stock a four-of.  Walking Ballista was back, but I featured that last week. Here’s the one new deck from VSL. 
 
 
Card Prices
 
Note: all my prices come from the fine folks at MTGOTraders.com. These are retail prices, and generally the price of the lowest priced, actively traded version. (Prices for some rare promo versions are not updated when not in stock, so I skip those.)   You can get these cards at MTGOTraders.com web store, or from their bots: MTGOTradersBot(#) (they have bots 1-10), CardCaddy and CardWareHouse, or sell cards to MTGOTradersBuyBot(#) (they have buybots 1-4). I have bought cards from MTGOTraders for over a decade now, and have never been overcharged or disappointed.
 
Standard staples: Standard prices were mixed again this week. Neither the format nor prices have settled. A couple cards have fallen off the table, and a few might appear over the next few weeks. 
 

Standard Cards
Price
Last Week
Change
% Change
$9.32
$10.02
($0.70)
-7%
$12.94
$11.58
$1.36
12%
$22.11
$25.55
($3.44)
-13%
$24.29
$26.28
($1.99)
-8%
$21.17
$24.97
($3.80)
-15%
$11.65
$11.00
$0.65
6%
$6.86
$9.47
($2.61)
-28%
$24.83
$26.36
($1.53)
-6%
$14.29
$11.68
$2.61
22%
$29.35
$29.96
($0.61)
-2%
$13.50
$13.02
$0.48
4%
$21.68
$11.51
$10.17
88%
$10.07
$7.53
$2.54
34%
$7.92
$6.65
$1.27
19%
$12.38
$13.97
($1.59)
-11%
$9.47
$7.84
$1.63
21%
$12.49
$11.51
$0.98
9%
$12.48
$13.67
($1.19)
-9%
$8.80
$9.50
($0.70)
-7%

Modern staples:  Modern prices were a bit mixed, but nothing unusual. The price of lands is slowly falling.  I may stop list the prices of Grove and Inkmoth Nexus.
   

Modern Cards
Price
Last Week
Change
% Change
$30.08
$33.30
($3.22)
-10%
$35.36
$33.16
$2.20
7%
$30.47
$29.69
$0.78
3%
$22.88
$22.95
($0.07)
0%
$44.27
$32.98
$11.29
34%
$26.12
$23.96
$2.16
9%
$35.39
$36.74
($1.35)
-4%
$38.62
$46.21
($7.59)
-16%
$26.98
$30.72
($3.74)
-12%
$13.52
$17.79
($4.27)
-24%
$22.94
$22.64
$0.30
1%
$14.37
$15.23
($0.86)
-6%
$29.71
$31.35
($1.64)
-5%
$78.24
$77.39
$0.85
1%
$38.25
$39.27
($1.02)
-3%
$18.16
$19.04
($0.88)
-5%
$24.55
$23.89
$0.66
3%
$23.99
$21.37
$2.62
12%
$44.52
$44.69
($0.17)
0%
$28.79
$28.01
$0.78
3%

Legacy and Vintage: Legacy and Vintage are quiet this week. A few small changes, but nothing significant.   The price of true duals is falling again, but I will probably keep one the table, even if it stays well below $20.  
 

Legacy / Vintage Cards
Price
Last Week
Change
% Change
$28.92
$24.48
$4.44
18%
$31.44
$38.95
($7.51)
-19%
$83.33
$79.46
$3.87
5%
$27.56
$30.97
($3.41)
-11%
$25.69
$27.51
($1.82)
-7%
$42.71
$46.49
($3.78)
-8%
$40.08
$40.23
($0.15)
0%
$26.52
$27.62
($1.10)
-4%
$35.34
$36.39
($1.05)
-3%
$34.07
$35.28
($1.21)
-3%
$27.78
$30.73
($2.95)
-10%
$35.50
$35.94
($0.44)
-1%
$28.92
$29.13
($0.21)
-1%
$35.96
$35.78
$0.18
1%
$19.57
$18.31
$1.26
7%
$32.47
$32.06
$0.41
1%
$171.22
$170.88
$0.34
0%
$55.50
$56.06
($0.56)
-1%
$25.82
$29.87
($4.05)
-14%
$47.28
$42.54
$4.74
11%
$31.41
$31.41
$0.00
0%
$12.89
$15.60
($2.71)
-17%
$44.21
$43.41
$0.80
2%

Set Redemption: You can redeem complete sets on MTGO. You need to purchase a redemption voucher from the store for $25. During the next downtime, Wizards removes a complete set from your account and sends you the same set in paper.  Treasure Chests and the current booster packs are here because they don’t really fit anywhere else.
 

Complete Set
Price
Last Week
Change
% Change
Aether Revolt
$90.93
$103.24
($12.31)
-12%
Battle for Zendikar
$69.94
$69.24
$0.70
1%
Eldritch Moon
$102.20
$107.06
($4.86)
-5%
Kaladesh
$94.99
$90.00
$4.99
6%
Oath of the Gatewatch
$127.52
$109.19
$18.33
17%
Shadows over Innistrad
$65.34
$62.68
$2.66
4%
Treasure Chest
$2.68
$2.53
$0.15
6%
Aether Revolt Booster
$3.94
$4.10
($0.16)
-4%
Kaladesh Booster
$1.79
$1.64
$0.15
9%

 
 
The Good Stuff
 
The following is a list of all the non-promo, non-foil cards on MTGO that retail for more than $25 per card. These are the big ticket items in the world of MTGO. Still a shade over sixty cards on the list, and Black Lotus is still a tick above Liliana. Ancestral Recall is back. Some of the prices for KLD inventions and so forth are causing anomalous results. Arcbound Ravager is on this list, but not on the Modern list because the original version is only about $10. 
 

Name
Set
Rarity
 Price
Rishadan Port
 MM
Rare
 $ 171.22
Black Lotus
 VMA
Bonus
 $  83.33
Liliana of the Veil
 ISD
Mythic Rare
 $  78.24
Wasteland
 EXP
Mythic Rare
 $  57.54
Engineered Explosives
 MS2
Bonus
 $  56.55
Show and Tell
 UZ
Rare
 $  55.50
Wasteland
 TPR
Rare
 $  53.12
Chalice of the Void
 MS2
Bonus
 $  52.57
Ensnaring Bridge
 MS2
Bonus
 $  52.56
True-Name Nemesis
 PZ1
Mythic Rare
 $  50.63
True-Name Nemesis
 C13
Rare
 $  47.28
Tarmogoyf
 FUT
Rare
 $  46.92
Tarmogoyf
 MMA
Mythic Rare
 $  45.85
Chalice of the Void
 MRD
Rare
 $  45.15
Wasteland
 TE
Uncommon
 $  45.14
Tarmogoyf
 MM2
Mythic Rare
 $  44.52
Mox Opal
 MS2
Bonus
 $  44.28
Chalice of the Void
 MMA
Rare
 $  44.27
Wasteland
 EMA
Rare
 $  44.21
Ensnaring Bridge
 8ED
Rare
 $  44.01
Ensnaring Bridge
 7E
Rare
 $  43.00
Exploration
 UZ
Rare
 $  42.71
Oblivion Stone
 MS2
Bonus
 $  41.24
Food Chain
 MM
Rare
 $  40.08
Mox Opal
 SOM
Mythic Rare
 $  39.58
Unmask
 MM
Rare
 $  38.68
Ensnaring Bridge
 ST
Rare
 $  38.62
Mox Opal
 MM2
Mythic Rare
 $  38.25
Engineered Explosives
 5DN
Rare
 $  36.16
Misdirection
 MM
Rare
 $  35.96
Leovold, Emissary of Trest
 PZ2
Mythic Rare
 $  35.50
Engineered Explosives
 MMA
Rare
 $  35.39
Batterskull
 NPH
Mythic Rare
 $  35.36
From the Ashes
 C13
Rare
 $  35.34
Gaea's Cradle
 UZ
Rare
 $  34.07
Mox Sapphire
 VMA
Bonus
 $  32.47
Scalding Tarn
 EXP
Mythic Rare
 $  32.45
Back to Basics
 UZ
Rare
 $  31.44
Unmask
 V16
Mythic Rare
 $  31.41
Blood Moon
 9ED
Rare
 $  31.35
Blood Moon
 MMA
Rare
 $  30.85
Ancestral Vision
 DD2
Rare
 $  30.53
Blood Moon
 8ED
Rare
 $  30.47
Karn Liberated
 MM2
Mythic Rare
 $  30.17
Ancestral Vision
 TSP
Rare
 $  30.08
Karn Liberated
 NPH
Mythic Rare
 $  29.71
Liliana, the Last Hope
 EMN
Mythic Rare
 $  29.35
Force of Will
 MED
Rare
 $  29.27
Containment Priest
 PZ1
Rare
 $  29.13
Ancestral Recall
 VMA
Bonus
 $  28.92
Meren of Clan Nel Toth
 PZ1
Rare
 $  28.92
Voice of Resurgence
 DGM
Mythic Rare
 $  28.79
Infernal Tutor
 DIS
Rare
 $  27.78
Containment Priest
 C14
Rare
 $  27.56
Force of Will
 EMA
Mythic Rare
 $  27.06
Griselbrand
 AVR
Mythic Rare
 $  26.98
Force of Will
 VMA
Rare
 $  26.52
Eidolon of the Great Revel
 JOU
Rare
 $  26.12
Tangle Wire
 NE
Rare
 $  25.82
Doomsday
 WL
Rare
 $  25.69
Horizon Canopy
 EXP
Mythic Rare
 $  25.38
Arcbound Ravager
 MS2
Bonus
 $  25.17
Wurmcoil Engine
 MS2
Bonus
 $  25.11

 
The big number is the retail price of a playset (4 copies) of every card available on MTGO. Assuming you bought the least expensive versions available, the cost of owning a playset of every card on MTGO is $ 23,745. That is down $315 from last week.
 
Weekly Highlights
 
I have played in a couple single game draft leagues. I still haven’t figured this out. The deck that I thought was pure garbage ended up winning seven matches, while the deck I thought was great is going to have to run really well to just earn points. 
 
PRJ
 
“One Million Words” and “3MWords” on MTGO
 
 
This series is an ongoing tribute to Erik “Hamtastic” Friborg.
 
HammyBot Super Sale: HammyBot was set up to sell off Erik Friborg’s collection, with all proceeds going to his wife and son. So far, HammyBot has raised over $8,000, but there are a lot of cards left in the collection. Those cards are being sold at MTGOTrader’s Buy Price.  
 
 

23 Comments

Combat shortcut by Hearts at Fri, 02/17/2017 - 16:21
Hearts's picture

Talked with Pete Jahn on the street the other day and he said he agreed the combat shortcut straight to opponent having priority before declare attackers is wrong and that the mtr is in conflict with the cr on this. And since the cr has higher authority than the mtr the pro tour judges were wrong in Dublin two weeks ago.

Fake News or Alternative by Cauchy at Fri, 02/17/2017 - 16:21
Cauchy's picture

Fake News or Alternative Facts? Maybe both?

In re: modern decks, not sure by Paul Leicht at Fri, 02/17/2017 - 23:04
Paul Leicht's picture
5

In re: modern decks, not sure if it is a REAL deck but Turns is a deck that's been around for a bit.

Turns is great. by JXClaytor at Sun, 02/19/2017 - 08:50
JXClaytor's picture

Turns is great.

re by Hearts at Mon, 02/20/2017 - 12:14
Hearts's picture

Last development now is that Pete Jahn has contacted wotc about the collusion and bribery rules/politics. Rules are horribly wrong Pete says/said, and he says wotc has used him to legitimize the rules and judge practices for years without him being aware of how wrong that was.

In addition Pete now says he will also look back at things he has said about gambling and wotc/mtg/tournament scenes.

- it has dawned on me lately that wotc lies through their teeth on any occasion that that they have used volunteer affiliates on a grand scale to convey/carry through their lies.

What are you going on about? by JXClaytor at Mon, 02/20/2017 - 12:19
JXClaytor's picture

What are you going on about?

If you have followed recent by xger at Mon, 02/20/2017 - 12:27
xger's picture

If you have followed recent State of the Program comments, Hearts has had similar nonsensical rantings. At this point it would probably just be best to ignore.

Well, I mean I obviously by JXClaytor at Mon, 02/20/2017 - 13:14
JXClaytor's picture

Well, I mean I obviously follow them. :D I'm just trying to figure out why recently. Hearts has been ok for the most part. Just a turn recently is all :/

re by Hearts at Mon, 02/20/2017 - 14:59
Hearts's picture

One of the things that Pete f.ex wrote was this, but he didnt know it was wrong when he wrote it (probably because wotc said it was good stuff and that Pete would be a nice person to write/say it for them);

Lisa plays mtg (swiss part/many matches/players) against Jacob.
Jacob asks if Lisa wants to concede to him. They talk and think and then Lisa concedes to Jacob. Later that night Jacob goes over to Lisa and gives her some boosters. lalala....

This is not collusion (Pete Jahn wrote).

...
We all know that one should not write like this, and we know that Pete wrote it without thinking, wotc deceived him to do it.

But can you prove that it is by JXClaytor at Mon, 02/20/2017 - 15:09
JXClaytor's picture

But can you prove that it is collusion? Because without knowing the details of said conversation, it's not collusion?

re by Hearts at Mon, 02/20/2017 - 15:15
Hearts's picture

Can you prove the opposite ?
What is the concept with stories with random persons/names ?

No I can't prove the by JXClaytor at Mon, 02/20/2017 - 15:35
JXClaytor's picture

No I can't prove the opposite, but I'm not the one that is making the claim that collusion happened.

Also, as the content manager of PureMtgo.com I can say this with honesty, at no point in the past nearly ten years I have been here, has anyone from WotC approached me or Heath in regards to "publishing a message" or "getting their information out" We are not a propaganda arm of Wizards of the Coast, and have always operated as a community site.

We do work with WotC, we ran contests in the pasts for theme decks and get preview cards, but if you've read anything I've written, or others on the site, that working relationship is not compliant of us not voicing criticisms of the company or the client. We're not tools of WotC in any way.

Can confirm by TheWolf at Tue, 02/21/2017 - 03:59
TheWolf's picture

Can confirm, I have been critical of WotC in past articles and have not been told to stop or shut up about it.

re by Hearts at Tue, 02/21/2017 - 12:01
Hearts's picture

Comparing Pete Jahn to other writers on PureMTGO is ... non valid.

Pete Jahn has been a Judge and Mtg writer since mid 90s, and rather high profile at that.

Other articles at Puremtgo are barely read or commented, much lower attendance.

Uh...I have too? It's quite by JXClaytor at Tue, 02/21/2017 - 12:05
JXClaytor's picture

Uh...I have too? It's quite valid.

We're not in a contest among writers for the "most views" or "most comments" Most of our feedback comes from Reddit, Facebook, or Twitter now.

We are providing a platform for their voice. That's what we do.

Pete is not part of the magic Illuminati, what you think is collusion is actually not collusion, and I think it's best if we all just move on from this.

re by Hearts at Tue, 02/21/2017 - 12:16
Hearts's picture

...

Have a good one Hearts, by JXClaytor at Tue, 02/21/2017 - 12:17
JXClaytor's picture

Have a good one Hearts, thanks for stopping by the site!

re by Hearts at Wed, 02/22/2017 - 01:50
Hearts's picture

You are (trying to be) dismissive on the net, that is pathetic.

He's not. He's been polite by MarcosPMA at Wed, 02/22/2017 - 02:29
MarcosPMA's picture

He's not. He's been polite to you thus far and you responded with "...", which comes across as passive aggressive.

As far as collusion goes, there's insufficient evidence to conclude that it's collusion. It sounds fishy and would warrant an investigation, but you can't prove for sure it's one or the other. Unless you can connect the boosters with the concession, you can't say it is or it isn't.

re by Hearts at Wed, 02/22/2017 - 04:37
Hearts's picture

Do you understand the difference between fictional and non-fictional literature ?

Ironically I was wondering if by Paul Leicht at Wed, 02/22/2017 - 05:00
Paul Leicht's picture

Ironically I was wondering if you understood the difference between what YOU believe and provable facts. How coincidental that you asked that of him a little less directly.

Let's look at some different statements:

a) Joe concedes to Sue. Provable, they both signed the sheet and it is in the tourney record.

b) Joe and Sue are friends. Also provable because of seeing how they interact with each other. Observable proof is easily available and other people can corroborate with positive testimony.

c) Joe conceded to Sue because Sue is planning to reward Joe later even though neither person ever said a word about rewards, packs or otherwise giving compensation for the act of concession.

a and b are provable facts.
c) is not a provable fact. In order to prove it you would have to get them to confess to it or have witnesses to their conversation about it.

If both Mike and Pete heard Joe say to Sue before their match or during their match: "Hey I am going to concede to you, give me some x packs later" and also heard Sue say "OK Joe, sounds fair." Or some other similar conversation, that's corroborated evidence (the two witnesses independently back each others' statements up.)

What you do have is supposition. You can conjecture about motive and probability and human nature and "how things work" but none of that adds up to c) being factually provable. You believe it to be true and you have experiential evidence to help you make that belief in your head but you don't have proof. So you can't claim it as a fact. Just because no one else can disprove it does not make it so.

Even if you take the next statement into account:

d) Joe walks into the store the next day bragging about the great swag he cracked the night before FROM packs he got from Sue.

you can't prove c with that. You could maybe should be suspicious if d) occurs but you still can't prove what you're trying to prove. You need a) witnesses b) a confession c) some other method of collecting evidence (such as catching the whole thing on camera.) Hope this helps.

No, I'm really trying to be by JXClaytor at Wed, 02/22/2017 - 10:00
JXClaytor's picture

No, I'm really trying to be polite. I intended to end the interaction, and I thanked you for coming by the site.

That's it.

Hearts by MichelleWong at Wed, 02/22/2017 - 06:42
MichelleWong's picture
5

Nice post Paul, I agree with you 100%.

Since Hearts is taking some time to respond, can I try to respond on his behalf by saying:

"All conjecture. Doesn't prove anything". "..."