hamtastic's picture
By: hamtastic, Erik Friborg
Nov 27 2009 3:31am
0
1496 views

Editorial Section:
We're coming up on the first anniversary of the day Pauper saved MTGO.  Think I'm exaggerating?  I'll direct your attention to this previous article on the subject.  While I'm not a hardcore tournament player I do tend to have to keep up with that world due to the work I do for this article each week.  That work has given me insights into many facets of the game that I otherwise wouldn't have had access to, namely, cause and effect of tournaments on the MTGO economy.  Generally cards on MTGO mimic their paper counterparts for movement either up or down.  If a deck wins a big tournament then the MTGO price of the those cards jump up and the MTGP cards follow slowly along.  However, in the case of Pauper, we had one of the few times that MTGO cards were widely affected by something internal instead of external.  Namely the creation of a sanctioned Pauper format.  Finally there was a format for the introductory players that also allowed for hard core competitive play on budget.  Well, for a while, anyway.  The response to MTGO's Pauper format was skyrocketing singles prices for cards known as "out of print" commons.  Commons from "Legacy" sets like Mirage, Visions and Weatherlight exploded.  Basically any set that had a smaller than normal print run and lower than normal attendance.  Perhaps the most obvious example in this category was Lightning Bolt, which went from being .25 tickets to 3.00 tickets in short amount of time. 



It's now been (about) one year since all this happened.  So I wanted to take a moment to remind everyone about December 4th, 2008.




Looking back at the last year, it seems that Pauper started very strong and ran into major headaches when the prizes were overly depressed on the secondary market.  However, even after being restored a lot of the interest had cooled.  Despite this cool-off, Pauper is still a great introductory format for new MTGO players as well as a great budget outlet for competitive players with various queues and large weekend challenges each week which can be found here.  For anyone interested about the format and talking about it with other Pauper players I'd highly recommend using the resources at www.pdcmagic.com to brainstorm and plan for upcoming events.

End of Chapter 1

Chapter 2 - Why can't MTGO be in charge?
I know it's a lot of work involving a lot of computers and a lot of hassle to set up however many computers it would take to host something like Worlds, but I really think that WotC should move in that direction in the near future.  Probably not until we have a valid Vintage/Legacy pool, but as soon as we logically can do it, we really really should.  I read about four people being knocked out of the tournament for breaking DCI Floor Rules.  The first was for 'fraud' with Charles Gindy of the USA Team.  His disqualification took the entire team out of contention.  There's a lot of information and stories about this one, but the gist of it is that he allegedly intended to allow his opponent to make a mistake that he knew at the time was in his favor.  Again, allegedly, etc.  But that's not all.  In the draft portion three more players were knocked out for looking at some other players cards.  In two of these cases additional teams were completely disqualified from the teams portion.  So from three disqualifications there were thirteen players screwed (each team has three players and a substitution player, so four teams times three plus one more).  I'm not sure what the percentage of players this represents but it's a huge blow to all the involved teams, players and countries.

These two types of issues seem very different on the surface, but oddly enough, they are non-issues on MTGO thanks to triggered abilities as well as the ability to have secure draft pods. 

The player count for Worlds was a little over 400 players which is a tournament size that can easily be handled by the MTGO client.  The biggest issue of course would be getting 400 networked computers to work in one location; which even by my typically hyper-optimistic thoughts is a pretty daunting task.  However, if you remove the effort that they put in to just the paper draft process, I'm thinking that the amount of effort overall wouldn't be too much worse.  For those that are unaware, each pack of cards is actually 15 'loose' cards that have been stamped (to avoid cheating) and re-bound for the event.  Times three times four hundred.  That's a lot of stamping, binding and assigning.  This is done to prevent players sneaking in other cards, and to ensure that the deck that was built is possible based on the cards that were in the pod and passed around, etc.  You might be thinking that that is a lot of work, and you'd be right.  Shift that effort to setting up 400ish computers and you've got yourself a secure, focused draft.  The biggest concerns I have with the MTGO setup is power consumption and bandwidth.  However if venues were chosen with the knowledge of needing to be able to handle this, I suspect that it wouldn't be a huge issue. 

One other thing to note, if you don't have to bring your paper deck, you don't have to worry about it being stolen.  It seemed like I saw a twitter post or two every day of the event where someone was asking for help after having their deck/bag/laptop/phone/etc stolen.  Magic tournaments are ripe targets with the hustle and bustle mixed with highly valuable items with minimal protection.  The less things to leave lying around the better all around.  And this tangent brings me to my next tangent... we need to keep an out for each other.  In a neighborhood watch sort of way.  If the person who set down a deck isn't the person who is picking it up... say something.  If you're leaving something, anything, out and need to be distracted (for trades, or bathroom, etc) make sure to have someone watch your stuff.  We Magic players tend to have enough social awkwardness to fill a garage.  Do we really need to add "Thieving Jerk-Bags" to that list?  I really don't think so.  So as a plead from me to my fellow Magic players.  Keep an eye out for one another.  Our game has enough hurdles to getting and acquiring new players can we please not add these types of bad experiences too?

End of Chapter 2

Chatper 3 - Basically, Momir
For those of you who missed the news, there is going to be a large, free, Momir Basic tournament in the not too distant future.  The reason is to celebrate the Community Team victory in the Community Cup Challenge in Renton.  I realized that it has been a good long while since Momir Basic was a well known term and we've had a lot of player turnover since it was last in vogue.  So it stands to reason that some of my readers may not know about the fantastically frustrating format known as Momir Basic.  The history of the format is a strange one.  The Momir Vig avatar was the participation avatar for the Dissension release events.  It was underpowered in the actual Vanguard format (which is another currently unsupported by WotC) but the players found a very different way to utilize the zany random avatar.  Instead of trying to shoe-horn a deck around the avatar they used it as a great equalizer.  Everyone played nothing but basic lands and one avatar.  From there, everything else was the luck of the random creature you got each turn.  The format was wildly popular.  Enough so that people broke down 'optimum mana bases' based on activated abilities.  Enough so that people ran the percentages on hitting a first turn 'mana elf' like Boreal Druid.  Enough so that people would run the numbers on hitting a game losing drop at four and seven mana (Leveler and (Phage, the Untouchable), respectively).  Enough of the history for now, what about the rules?

Rules:

  • 60 Basic non-snow lands
  • One Momir Vig avatar
  • One land per turn (as usual)
  • Pay x mana, discard a card: put a random creature with converted mana cost of x onto the battlefield.  Do this only once per turn, as a sorcery.


Great Cards/General Thoughts:
Hitting a first turn Llanowar Elves or other mana producer is awesome in that it turns on your crucial turns (five and eight) on a full turn ahead of your opponent.  Another exciting drop is the (Azorious Guildmage) which interestingly enough can counter the activated ability of your opponents Avatar... essentially shutting them out of the rest of the game.  Just leave two blue/white hybrid up and you'll pretty much coast to an easy victory unless they hit the same two drop you do.. Seriously, I think that is their only out if you hit it on turn two. 

The available creatures are cumulative.  Meaning that for each version of that creature in the game you have a chance at hitting it.  Case in point, I had a Gold Bordered Godsire hit the table across from me, which indicated that for each version of a card in the system you might hit it at that mana cost.

And lastly, for those looking for some more in depth reading on the topic I present the following links:

Momir Basic Primer - Jeff Till
Momir Basic: 60% Luck, 40% Skill, 100% Awesome - Daedalianingenuity
The Beautiful Struggle - Momir Basic for Fun and Profit - Mark Young
Tips and Tricks, Momir BASIC, and Leagues - Frank Karsten

 

Discussion Items:
Magic 2010 Release Schedule -
Another aggressive schedule for up MTGO folks.  Again, I caution each and every one of my readers to not get swept up in the chase for everything.  That way lays madness.  Instead, focus on your enjoyment of Magic, and enjoy the pieces you really like and don't worry about the rest.  

Banned and restricted lists. - No Change.
Expect a detailed rant on this subject in the not too distant future...

Price Discussion:
Wow!  Worlds really slammed into Standard prices like a freight train.  Thanks to decks like Conley Woods' "Magical Christmas Land", Lotus Cobra has surged upwards and brought Violent Ultimatum up with it.  As a deck that focuses on breaking the game in half on turn three or four, it's a powerhouse that certainly brought back some respect for the recently flaccid pricing of Lotus Cobra.  Also moving up are the Alara Block Planeswalkers.  These two (Ajani and Elspeth) were powerhouses in Alara Block constructed and I'm not at all surprised to see them move up in Standard.  Scapeshift has begun to prove itself in Extended with Valakut as a one card combo that can just flat out win a game.

On the flip side of the coin, we had some quick market corrections in the names of Nissa Revane and Eldrazi Monument.  Both are still strong but hare probably being liquidated after some fast speculation buying when Eldrazi Green didn't really stand up against the insanity that was the new and improved Standard. 

Price Tables:

Card This Week Last Week Value Change Percentage Change
Lotus Cobra 22 13.75 8.25 60.00%
Ajani Vengeant 26 18.5 7.5 40.54%
Baneslayer Angel 48 42 6 14.29%
Elspeth, Knight_Errant 28.5 23 5.5 23.91%
Rampaging Baloths 5 3 2 66.67%
Time Warp 11.5 9.5 2 21.05%
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen 7.75 6 1.75 29.17%
Font of Mythos 4 2.5 1.5 60.00%
Emeria Angel 3.25 2 1.25 62.50%
Honor of the Pure 3.5 2.25 1.25 55.56%
Card This Week Last Week Value Change Percentage Change
Violent Ultimatum 0.75 0.1 0.65 650.00%
Worm Harvest 0.75 0.3 0.45 150.00%
Aven Mimeomancer 0.75 0.35 0.4 114.29%
Archon of Justice 0.75 0.4 0.35 87.50%
Scapeshift 2 1.15 0.85 73.91%
Sphinx of Lost Truths 1 0.6 0.4 66.67%
Rampaging Baloths 5 3 2 66.67%
Emeria Angel 3.25 2 1.25 62.50%
Font of Mythos 4 2.5 1.5 60.00%
Lotus Cobra 22 13.75 8.25 60.00%
Card This Week Last Week Value Change Percentage Change
Nissa Revane 10.75 14.5 -3.75 -25.86%
Eldrazi Monument 9.5 12 -2.5 -20.83%
Rootbound Crag 3.85 4.5 -0.65 -14.44%
Bitterblossom 4.75 5.25 -0.5 -9.52%
Rafiq of the Many 5.75 6.25 -0.5 -8.00%
Figure of Destiny 8 8.5 -0.5 -5.88%
Tarmogoyf 31.5 32 -0.5 -1.56%
Elvish Archdruid 2 2.35 -0.35 -14.89%
Banefire 2.45 2.75 -0.3 -10.91%
Iona, Shield of Emeria 5.75 6 -0.25 -4.17%
Card This Week Last Week Value Change Percentage Change
Nissa Revane 10.75 14.5 -3.75 -25.86%
Traumatize 0.9 1.15 -0.25 -21.74%
Eldrazi Monument 9.5 12 -2.5 -20.83%
Spellbreaker Behemoth 0.8 1 -0.2 -20.00%
Elvish Archdruid 2 2.35 -0.35 -14.89%
Rootbound Crag 3.85 4.5 -0.65 -14.44%
Hypnotic Specter 0.6 0.7 -0.1 -14.29%
Gilt_Leaf Archdruid 1.3 1.5 -0.2 -13.33%
Exotic Orchard 1.3 1.5 -0.2 -13.33%
Ethersworn Canonist 1.3 1.5 -0.2 -13.33%

Price Charts:

 

lotus cobra chart
ajani vengeant chart
baneslayer angel chart
elspeth, knight_errant chart
rampaging baloths chart
time warp chart
ob nixilis, the fallen chart
font of mythos chart
emeria angel chart
honor of the pure chart
violent ultimatum chart
worm harvest chart
aven mimeomancer chart
archon of justice chart
scapeshift chart
sphinx of lost truths chart
rampaging baloths chart
emeria angel chart
font of mythos chart
lotus cobra chart
nissa revane chart
eldrazi monument chart
rootbound crag chart
bitterblossom chart
rafiq of the many chart
figure of destiny chart
tarmogoyf chart
elvish archdruid chart
banefire chart
iona, shield of emeria chart
nissa revane chart
traumatize chart
eldrazi monument chart
spellbreaker behemoth chart
elvish archdruid chart
rootbound crag chart
hypnotic specter chart
gilt_leaf archdruid chart
exotic orchard chart
ethersworn canonist chart

Tournament Stuff:

  321 Draft 16 player Daily Swiss Daily 8 Player Sealed Swiss Queue 16 player Daily Swiss (Release)
Promo None Counterspell None Avatar, extra avatar to winners
Rounds 3 4 3 4
Expected Value (prizes): 42.8% 50.9% 50% 54.9%
Estimated Time Three to Four hours Four Hours Three Hours Four Hours
Payout 3-0: 3 Packs
2-1: 2 Packs
1-2: 1 Packs
0-3: 0 packs
4-0: 11 Packs
3-1: 6 Packs
2-2: 3 Packs
1-3 or lower: 0 Packs
3-0: 9 Packs
2-1: 4 Packs
1-2: 1 Packs
0-3: 0 Packs
4-0: 15 Packs
3-1: 12 Packs
2-2: 3 Packs
1-3 or lower:0 Packs
MOPR Points 3 4 4 4
Cost 3 Boosters + 2 Event Tickets
($14.97 from the store)
Six Boosters + 2 Event Tickets
($25.94 from the store)
Six Boosters
($23.94 from the store)
Six boosters + 4 Event Tickets
($27.94 from the store)


Dailies:

  Standard Block Extended Classic
Promo Counterspell, foil for winning Counterspell, foil for winning Counterspell, foil for winning Counterspell, foil for winning
EV (prizes)        
Estimated Time Four hours Four hours Four hours Four hours
Rounds 4 4 4 4
Payout 4-0: 11 Zen Packs
3-1: 6 Zen Packs
4-0: 11 Zen Packs
3-1: 6 Zen Packs
4-0: 11 ACR (4/3/4)
3-1: 6 ACR (2/2/2)
4-0: 11 ME3 Boosters
3-1: 6 ME3 Boosters
MOPR Points 4 4 4 4
Cost 6 Event Tickets + Deck 6 Event Tickets + Deck 6 Event Tickets + Deck 6 Event Tickets + Deck

Premier Events:

  Standard Block Extended Classic
Promo Counterspell, foil for top 8 Counterspell, foil for top 8 Counterspell,foil for top 8 Counterspell, foil for top 8
Estimated Time 6+ hours, + top 8 6+ hours, + top 8 6+ hours, + top 8 6+ hours, + top 8
Rounds 6 for 33 - 64
7 for 65-96
6 for 33 - 64
7 for 65-96
6 for 33 - 64
7 for 65-96
6 for 33 - 64
7 for 65-96
Payout 1st: 36 Zen Packs
2nd: 27 Zen Packs
3rd & 4th: 18 Zen Packs
5th - 8th: 9 Zen Packs
1st: 36 Zen Packs
2nd: 27 Zen Packs
3rd & 4th: 18 Zen Packs
5th - 8th: 9 Zen Packs
1st: 36 ACR (12/12/12)
2nd: 27 ACR (9/9/9)
3rd & 4th: 18 ACR (6/6/6)
5th - 8th: 9 ACR (3/3/3)
1st: 36 ME3 Packs
2nd: 27 ME3 Packs
3rd & 4th: 18 ME3 Packs
5th - 8th: 9 ME3 Packs
MOPR Points 6 for 33 - 64
7 for 65-128
6 for 33 - 64
7 for 65-128
6 for 33 - 64
7 for 65-128
6 for 33 - 64
7 for 65-128
Cost 10 Event Tickets + Deck 10 Event Tickets + Deck 10 Event Tickets + Deck 10 Event Tickets + Deck

Weekend Events:

  Standard Singleton Pauper Core Set Constructed 100 Card Singleton
Promo Goblin Legionnaire, foil top 8 Goblin Legionnaire, foil top 8 Goblin Legionnaire, foil top 8 Goblin Legionnaire, foil top 8
Estimated Time 6+ hours, + top 8 6+ hours, + top 8 6+ hours, + top 8 6+ hours, + top 8
Rounds 6 for 33 - 64
7 for 65-128
8 for 129-256
6 for 33 - 64
7 for 65-128
8 for 129-256
6 for 33 - 64
7 for 65-128
8 for 129-256
6 for 33 - 64
7 for 65-128
8 for 129-256
Payout 1st:
2nd:
3rd & 4th:
5th - 8th:
9th - 16th:
1st: M2010
2nd: M2010
3rd & 4th: M2010
5th - 8th: M2010
9th - 16th: M2010
1st: M2010
2nd: M2010
3rd & 4th: M2010
5th - 8th: M2010
9th - 16th: M2010
1st:
2nd:
3rd & 4th:
5th - 8th:
9th - 16th:
MOPR Points 6 for 33 - 64
7 for 65-128
6 for 33 - 64
7 for 65-128
6 for 33 - 64
7 for 65-128
6 for 33 - 64
7 for 65-128
Cost 6 Event Tickets + Deck 6 Event Tickets + Deck 6 Event Tickets + Deck 6 Event Tickets + Deck

Conclusion:
Yowzers!  That felt like a lot more writing than usual this week... hopefully it will tide you all over during the long holiday weekend.  As a topical aside for the week, I'd just like to take a moment to express my appreciation since this is the week of our Thanksgiving Holiday here in the states.  I'll say that I'm thankful for my wonderful and supportive wife.  I'm thankful for my weekly readers.  I'm thankful for Heath for running PureMTGO and giving me a place to hang my digital hat.  I'm thankful for WotC for making a great game and for the wonderful times I've had recently covering their MTGO events.  I'm thankful to be alive and healthy in a wonderful country of opportunity.  There are flaws in this country, no doubt about it.  I'm still thankful for what I have, and what I may yet be able to enjoy in life.  I'm thankful for the men and women of our military.  They are some brave and amazing people who do something that I cannot even fathom.  You all deserve more respect than our country can give you.  I hope you all take a moment to thank those people in your life that make it bearable, and don't forget to enjoy life while you have it.  It's gone way too fast.

See you in seven!
~Erik

19 Comments

Worlds/pro tours should never by Numdiar (not verified) at Fri, 11/27/2009 - 03:43
Numdiar's picture

Worlds/pro tours should never ever be held online. Ever. I love mtgo and I don't even play magic in rl anymore but I would be very upset by that since it would take away a lot from the game that could never be replaced.

Calculation by Artlee (not verified) at Fri, 11/27/2009 - 04:27
Artlee's picture

Call me pedantic, but your clculations on highest increase based on percentage is incorrect.

Take Violent Ultimatum: The value change*100% is not equal to the percentage change. You got to multiply 0.1 with 7.5, ergo the percentage change is 750%

Re:Calculation by Peter G. (not verified) at Fri, 11/27/2009 - 08:38
Peter G.'s picture

Hmmm, yes. I also agree, shallow and pedantic.

seriously? do we need family by ShardFenix at Fri, 11/27/2009 - 10:17
ShardFenix's picture

seriously? do we need family guy quotes everywhere? This guy says YES!

It's percentage increase not by Anonymous (not verified) at Fri, 11/27/2009 - 10:18
Anonymous's picture

It's percentage increase not percentage:

It was 0.1 now it 0.75

It is now 750% of the original price, therefore the percentage change is 750%-100%=650%

I haven't checked its price by Anonymous (not verified) at Fri, 11/27/2009 - 08:56
Anonymous's picture

I haven't checked its price for nearly a month but Innocent Blood seems to be risen to 1.75 from 0.5. Do you think it is permemant or temporary, and is it the same for other popular pauper commons?

Chapter 2 - Why can't MTGO be in charge? by Holy3456 (not verified) at Fri, 11/27/2009 - 12:19
Holy3456's picture

I don't agree with this at all. I think what they did was perfectly fine and more then anything it was more of a message.

"Don't cheat. Period."

You don't need to have MTGO in charge if you have respectable players. I remember watching Gary Wise call a judge on himself because he drew and extra card after he mulligan'd. Back then it was a game loss and he knew it but still did the right thing.

MTGO is not the answer. Respectable players are.

And so you're saying you by Amar at Sat, 11/28/2009 - 04:59
Amar's picture

And so you're saying you prefer a format where honest players like Wise get penalized with a game loss because of clumsy fingers, to one that would prevent him from making the mistake in the first place? Do you also prefer a format where people cheat and get away with it? Because that's what you're doing, unless we are pretending that every infraction is always caught.

This is at heart an age-old issue and the logic has always been clear: an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. It's naieve to say "well if everyone's good there's no problem." Do you never lock anything based on that principle? Doubtful. You can punish or you can prevent, but you can't perfect humanity through force of will.

And a system based on punishment rather than prevention will result in false punishments as well as false misses, because the judges are just as human as the players. To DQ Gindy you have to rule out many possibilities - including the actual gamestate - inside the head of someone who was, by definiton, confused. He _knew_ the ability wasn't optional (which it's not) AND _knew_ 2 damage wasn't dealt to the 3/3 (which it actually was) and we're completely certain of this? Am I the only one without those mind-reading powers?

But this is larger than Gindy. Think about everything at a PT that detracts from the actual game:

Drawing extra cards, allowed or not, caught or not. Triggers missed intentionally or unintentionally. Deck registration. Draft marking. Draft peeking. Cheating in deck registration. Making honest errors in deck registration. Having the cheating or errors of deck reg come to you via deck swap. Starting play early or late. Stalling for draws (intentionally or unintentionally). Getting slow play warnings for thinking. Flipping up cards during shuffling. Shuffling in an opponent's card. Shuffling badly (int or un). Shuffling period. Forgetting to de-sideboard. Misunderstanding cards. Misunderstanding game rules. Bad judge rulings. Unclear game states. Sloppy announcements. Out-of-order plays. Misreported results. Mis-entered results. Oh and flawed/delayed/missing coverage for those of us not playing.

I don't think saying "be good" will eliminate all that. Call me a pessimist.

Now playing online brings its own issues. And I think you do lose a lot when you can't see the opponent to read expressions or bluff your own. (Hammy's Community Cup trick only works so well.) We don't need the full range of currently-possible maneuvers. I'd be fine if Chapin's "all my legal targets" trick wasn't possible anymore. But stuff like holding your hand over a plains to bluff Path, whether it works or not, is a valid part of the game and hard to do online. I think that's probably themost compelling reason not to move off paper.

But as that list should demonstrate, there's a lot to be gained by trying.

Hmmm by pleicht (not verified) at Sat, 11/28/2009 - 09:15
pleicht's picture

I agree in part with this except that I think Gindy's case is only somewhat clarified by what we do know. He made a comment about the state after it was too late to rectify it. Now to me that implies he was either confused about the state or knew but thought hed get by with an aside. "Oh by the way..." I do know that competition does funny things to people and in such situations people can be very illogical and irrational when that is not their normal behavior. In Gindy's case as I initially said in another post, I can't believe a non-rookie pro made a goof that big and so publicly. But he did. Either by intentionally cheating and then getting caught or by unintentionally cheating and not realizing his position. I think fraud is a pretty harsh charge but I understand the reason behind it. Just as Dave Williams and others have been given equally harsh punishments in past Worlds events. The pros are held to a higher standard because they are in the public eye. It isn't really up to us judge them as moral/immoral, cheaters/righteous guys, but to know that stuff exists.

Cheaters, liars, thieves do exist and we need to protect ourselves against them and also to recognize that some people just make mistakes. And that is where I agree with you on the subject of digitalizing big events. On the other hand we can't really hold people to a higher standard if there is no standard to be held. Which means the Pro Tour becomes less meaningful as a role-model display if we take away the possibility of wrong doing and mistakes. It makes a less epic tale when Jon Finkel beats an irate Mike Long. Well that's my pov. I can see how WotC would rather keep the status quo and the potential for epicness than to sanitize things and at the same time lose some of the glory.

I don't think hammy's trick by bubba0077 at Sat, 11/28/2009 - 14:22
bubba0077's picture

I don't think hammy's trick would've worked either if he and Lee weren't sitting in the same room two chairs apart.

the secondary market is going by Anonymous (not verified) at Fri, 11/27/2009 - 15:54
Anonymous's picture

the secondary market is going to push me out of magic. call it supply and demand if you want, its absolutely secondary market manipulation and a joke.

How is it manipulation? It by Anonymous (not verified) at Fri, 11/27/2009 - 22:07
Anonymous's picture

How is it manipulation? It was based a lot on what deck is popular. Just come up with your own deck and find some new cards to break instead of complaining about the price of all the net decks.

Don't need secondary market by Felorin at Sat, 11/28/2009 - 13:17
Felorin's picture

I played and enjoyed Magic for a good year or more before I even STARTED using the secondary market. So I don't see how it could push someone out of the game. If for whatever reasons the secondary market isn't suited to your wants/needs/tastes, just don't use it & keep playing Magic without it.

Magic 3.5 by Joel_monteiro (not verified) at Fri, 11/27/2009 - 20:32
Joel_monteiro's picture

Any news on MTGO v3.5 for the browsers?

I don't expect that we'll by hamtastic at Fri, 11/27/2009 - 21:04
hamtastic's picture

I don't expect that we'll hear any news about this until next year, but I will certainly ask around about any status updates for the new version.

Do you have to actually own by adam (not verified) at Sat, 11/28/2009 - 00:30
adam's picture

Do you have to actually own the mormir vig avatar card to play in the format? If so it's pretty inacessible...

Thanks to the Community by pfirpfel (not verified) at Sat, 11/28/2009 - 06:30
pfirpfel's picture

Thanks to the Community Challenge Cup everyone who posted in those threads will get this avatar. So a massive amount of Momir Vigs go into the market which will definately cause a prise drop. Now it is at 5-6 tix and it was a lot higher in the past (around 13).

No MTGO for Pro Tour events by Felorin at Sat, 11/28/2009 - 14:14
Felorin's picture

Sorry to rain on your parade, but I don't think we'll ever see the Pro Tour events moving to Magic Online, nor should we. Even if they could overcome the huge logistical issues and the expense (think about transporting or leasing locally over 1000 computers and displays for the biggest Grand Prix events!), and in spite of the fact that it'd resolve rules enforcement issues mostly (I don't know what they'd do with judge calls involving a bugged card!) & allow them the option to use chess clocks to remove intentional draws, and rounds wouldn't go late much.

1) The dramatic appeal of the game is lessened. I read the coverage about the finalists sitting with two LCD monitors between them, actually chatting through their keyboards, just briefly leaning around the monitors before the game started to smile at each other and wish each other luck! I was at Pro Tour Austin, and I got to watch pros like Paulo Vitor Damo de Rosa and Brian Kibler face down their opponents. Looking at each other for any hint in facial expression or body language to help them guess if the other guy has that critical card in hand, or not. The delicate "thwip" of card sleeve corners slapping lightly down against the table when a card is played. The human drama of mano a mano competition. Lessening the face to face interaction would be very bad for the event.

2) Wizards spends a few million dollars a year on this event for one reason, and one reason only. Marketing. Making the latest cards that form tournament winning decks seem "cool" or "powerful", or even "they seem like they might let ME have a chance at winning one of those awesome tournaments" makes people buy more boosters. A LOT more boosters. Also singles, which forces somebody, somewhere upstream of the singles-buyer to have bought some boosters so that single was even available to re-sell. The way it is now, the sales boosts also carry over to Magic Online. If the Pro Tour was held on MTGO, it would clearly still boost sales of boosters on MTGO - but would it continue to boost sales of the physical cards as much as it does now? Or would it fail to make the actual physical cards seem quite as cool, and only function highly effectively as marketing for the virtual cards? If you're WoTC with millions of dollars in sales at stake, do you want to take that huge gamble with one of your top marketing tools when it's working well as-is?

3) Paper events have problems like theft and cheating, but they're manageable & account for an acceptably small percentage of the total number of players, matches, etc. Imagine the things that can go wrong with a network of 400 computers - or 1200+. Windows crashes. Network outages affecting a large subset of the PCs on site - that could make a round go a LOT later than a control on control mirror dragging through its 5 extra turns. And now, the cheaters have a whole new world of evil opportunities opened to them, to replace the ones taken away. If you have an accomplice who's skilled at hacking, you can sit there behaving perfectly, following every rule, while the other guy with no obvious ties to you floods your opponent's PC with packets to lag him. Or makes his MTGO crash, which it tends to do on its own sometimes anyway, losing him precious minutes from his clock. Or installs a trojan that lets him make one "misclick" happen at a critical juncture.

4) The infrastructure isn't mature and solid enough to put that many additional players on the production server, it strains at the seams still every time there's a release event and has problems with lag, events crashing/freezing, etc. Plus you'd be at the mercy of the internet link between the event site and the rest of the world not going out or lagging (or running short on bandwidth). So you'd have to set up another MTGO server cluster, and transport it with you to the event site. Even then, if you commit to that additional expense (and server admin and network admin manpower had better be on site with it!), I'm not convinced that the current system can reliably execute an event of this scale every time with no game freezes, crashes, bugs, etc. If something goes wrong with paper cards, there's almost never anything a judge can't resolve in a way that allows the game to complete without holding up the next round start time by half an hour or an hour. Short of the cards actually bursting into flame. Cards do not crash. (Ok, maybe if The Flash played he might windmill-slam his bomb rare onto the table fast enough to make it burst into flame from friction of the card against the atmosphere. But if he isn't at a given tournament you're good to go.)

5) Paper-only players would be at a bit of a disadvantage against MTGO players. This is the most minor of concerns on the list and would evaporate over time.

6) Paper-only players at constructed events would see their investment in paper cards to enable them to do well at tournaments shrivel up and vanish. Players of both formats like me would still see situations like "I have 4 Reveillarks in paper for my deck I wanted to play this time, but only 1 Reveillark on MTGO, I have to switch deck choices or buy more cards". The only alternative here is to create special temporary accounts and put everyone through a paper deck registration and copying onto MTGO process that would be a HUGE logistical nightmare for the judges and make tournaments take a lot longer to start. This is a problem with standard, but an even bigger problem in Extended and Legacy (the entire Legacy cardpool isn't even available, so they'd probably do Classic instead I guess). Alternatively, if you let people use their MTGO collections (which you'd have to), you have to copy the entire database over from the production servers before starting the event, and then listen to people who didn't read the fine print whine as the cards they got 3 hours before the event aren't available to them because the dump was done a couple days ago in Washington before the servers were packed up to fly to Thailand.

7) Cards are not currently available in Japanese, Spanish, Italian, German, or any other language, putting non-English speakers at a huge disadvantage, and those whose english is marginal at some disadvantage too. It's one thing to have to call a judge sometimes to give you the translation of your opponent's card. It's quite another when you can't have any of your OWN cards printed in your native language, especially in draft/sealed tournament rounds!

8) Magic already has problems being as "spectator-worthy" an event as we would all like it to be. It got onto ESPN-2 briefly, then disappeared for being unable to attract a large enough audience for television. At our current level, we do get coverage on the web and even some videos and a live webcast of the finals. If we make it less "spectatable", we'll have even less to read and watch. Short of moving all Magic to Korea where they love to watch Starcraft tournaments on television, I think this is a bad move. Would Gabriel Nassif's "called shot" of Cruel Ultimatum been as "cool" or "fun to watch" on MTGO? Yes, we could potentially make game replays available, making it nicer for the ultra-hard-core gamer nerds. But I think you lose more for the non-hardcore majority of the human race than you gain for that minority, there. (Live viewing of games over the net as opposed to just replays opens up a LOT of cheating possibilities, tips could go to a player over a cellphone text message, an earphone, etc.)

9) Side events would almost certainly still be run in paper. I think that's just better in a lot of ways - if you propose moving side events to MTGO then there'd be a whole separate list of problems with THAT, plus your expense and infrastructure problems go up.

There's probably more reasons I'm not thinking of at the moment. The number of venues to choose from that have adequate support infrastructure goes down limiting choices of locations, in Chicago you can't even plug in a power plug but have to pay expensive unionized guys to plug in stuff for you, in some foreign countries you need 1000+ power adaptors because the electrical plugs are different, etc. etc. But moving the drama of a live event into a less dramatic and exciting form just strikes me as the wrong move, even though there's advantages to go with the disadvantages. You're also focusing on solving a problem that's comparatively small with a very large change. If cheating were epidemic, it'd be more worth considering drastic measures. As it stands now, I think the best solution is what they've been doing for years - continued refinement of judging policies and practices, and of the tournament rules. If there ever comes a time when that approach can't "get 'er done" I'd reconsider, but I hope that day never comes. Right now I think the judge system is mostly a success, with few enough problems "leaking through the cracks" that the events are pretty successful, fun, etc. If it ain't broke, don't fix it?

Parade Canceled! by PLeicht (not verified) at Sat, 11/28/2009 - 19:09
PLeicht's picture

Parade canceled due heavy torrential downpours and hail stones the size of Chicago. News at 11! (You made some of my points in far more detail and with much greater scope than I bothered to imagine. One small quibble about the packets accomplice. That seems easily preventable (and a pain to accomplish) assuming the player are using closed systems to log on to Modo. Nice response.

Post new comment

The content of this field is kept private and will not be shown publicly.