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By: ShardFenix, Thomas Rayne
Jul 07 2010 1:49am
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Tribal Apocalypse

 

 

 

 

Welcome back everyone. Enjoy the new graphic created by MS Paint and edited with Picture Gallery. Now onto more important matters. As many of you know last week lead to a fairly volatile conversation. After four pages of comments and arguments we have come up with a new banned for the Tribal Apocalypse event. I believe this will help the event become more like what I envision. A detailed overview of the list will be included later in this article. Before that however, we have the decks from this week's event. If you ever want to see your deck posted simply join us on Saturdays at /join tribal. Registration begins at 12:30pm EDT with Round one starting at 1:00pm EDT.

 

2-1 Decks

Bruising Rogues
Lythand
Creatures
4 Auntie's Snitch
4 Inkfathom Infiltrator
4 Looter il-Kor
4 Stinkdrinker Bandit
2 Sygg, River Cutthroat
4 Earwig Squad
22 cards

Other Spells
4 Consume the Meek
4 Cloak and Dagger
3 Last Gasp
3 Nameless Inversion
14 cards
Lands
10 Island
13 Swamp
1 Drowned Catacomb
24 cards
 
Sygg, River Cutthroat

First we have Lythand's Rouge creation.  I was unable to face him in any of the rounds this week.  But obviously his deck served him well.  He only utilized some of the stronger prowl cards in Earwig Squad and Stinkdrinker Bandit with unblockable early rogues like Looter il-Kor and Inkfathom Infiltrator.  The only card he used that I am unsure of why, is the Consume the Meek.  I get that it's a sweeper, but it also kills most of his deck and doesn't hit larger creatures.  Personally I would suggest looking into Damnation or (washout) if on a budget.

Here There Be Dragons
AJ_Impy
Creatures
4 Alabaster Dragon
4 Pearl Dragon
4 Yosei, the Morning Star
4 Eternal Dragon
16 cards

Other Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Cataclysm
4 Moat
4 Exalted Dragon
14 cards
Lands
4 Arid Mesa
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Kabira Crossroads
1 Karakas
13 Plains
24 cards
 
Eternal Dragon

AJ shows up in our top decks yet again with his take on dragons.  I did not even realize there were 5 white dragons until our match started.  Yet sadly the minute I thought about it, I could name all 5.  There really should be a Magic Trivia game somewhere.  Anyways back to the deck.  With the ubiquitous Moat and the size of his beasts AJ was able to devastate the majority of his opponents.  A few lucky draws in our match certainly helped.  I kid, I kid, though double Moats and Oblivion Rings for my Oblivion Rings was rough. 

MelissaFey came prepared with Knights this weekend.  From first glance not only is this an effective deck, but with a few tweaks to spells could make a sick Kaleidoscope deck.  If only that was still a format.  However, this deck is sickly speedy and it's tough to take out 6/6 Indestructible Flyers which is quite common with Shield of the Oversoul and Wilt-Leaf Liege.  The rest of the cards all get +2/+2 from either the Liege or the Knight of New Alara.  And luckily enough good removal without the target attacking creature clause I was running.

Ranth came back this week with a very odd at first glance white and black rat deck.  I totally had no idea what the white was doing in the deck till I had time to sit back and watch a match.  The Enlightened Tutor package was impressive with access to Moat and Basilisk Collar and Expedition Map.  Also the Mirror Entity gives the usually weak rats a way to get some power on the board in the late game.  Mirror Entity has always been my favorite changeling so it's nice seeing someone else also put it too good use.

3-0 Decks

Jhoke came this week with a Solider deck splashing blue to abuse the combo of Energy Field and Wheel of Sun and Moon which negates any damage opponents could do to him.  This has been discussed a little in last week's comments with some leaning towards overpowered others toward even.  Personally I don't mind the combo, though its pretty mean against monoblack or monored decks but, that's one of the lacking areas of those colors so people should plan according. 

Overall this week was pretty uneventful overall.  It was a fun event with some new players actually drawn in by last weeks arguments.  What a convenient segue that ends up being.  Because I have some news stemming from last weeks article and the ensuing discussion.

Mystical TutorHelm of ObedienceIona, Shield of EmeriaProgenitusEmrakul, the Aeons TornPainter's ServantSneak AttackHermit DruidDoomsday

That's right in order to sculpt the event more into what I envision it to be and not a classic/legacy combo environment I have listened to the opinions of other players and come up with additional cards to be added to our banned list.  The cards were chosen based on their involvement in various combo decks and enabling such combos.  As of today the Tribal Apocalypse banned list looks as follows. 

This is the WotC banned list for Classic Tribal
Arboria
Balance
Channel
(Circle of Solace)
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Engineered Plague
Flash
(Imperial Seal)
Mana Crypt
Necropotence
Peer Pressure
Skullclamp
(Strip Mine)
The Abyss
Tinker
Tolarian Academy
Tsabo's Decree
(Umezawa's Jitte)
Yawgmoth's Will

These additional cards are also banned
Vampiric Tutor
Bazaar of Baghdad
Goblin Lackey
(Survival of the Fittest)
Lion's Eye Diamond
Earthcraft
(Iona, Shield of Emeria)
Mystical Tutor
Helm of Obedience
Painter's Servant
(Sneak Attack)
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Progenitus
Doomsday
Hermit Druid

These cards are on a warch list but not banned
Enlightened Tutor
(Natural Order)
Glimpse of Nature
Hypergenesis
Sensei's Divining Top
(Aether Vial)
Grindstone

The watch-list is just what it sounds like.  A list of cards suggested for banning, but that I don't think really deserve it at this point.  That doesn't mean they won't be banned, but not yet.  These changes should push creature combat to the forefront and have people avoid some of the turn 1 or 2 combos. 

As always thank you for reading and hopefully I will see you all on Saturday.

-Shard


Event Thread:community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75846/25284405/Tribal_Apocalypse:_July_10th_at_12:30pm_EDT.__Sponsored_by:_MTGOTraders

Event Group:community.wizards.com/tribalapocalypse

 

37 Comments

Unsure what happened on the by ShardFenix at Sun, 07/04/2010 - 21:37
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Unsure what happened on the first paragraph but I couldnt fix it, my bad.

What happened was you screwed by Paul Leicht at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 03:12
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What happened was you screwed up the html so that each line has its own paragraph <p> tag. The fix is to open it in html editor mode and delete the extra tags. I also noted a few typos. A proofer would help you.

Banned List by Orgion at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 04:04
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3

Interesting that you went with Painter's Servant rather than Grindstone as the banned combo card. Aside from Grindstone am I missing another really scary tournie standard combo available with the Painter? I'm somewhat sad you see as I had a nifty little scarecrows deck all worked out but alas it uses the Painter. Now I'll have to seem if it can be retooled without the color setting help of our favourite little servant.

And I was a little confused. I thought your statement in the initial paragraph "A detailed overview of the list will be included later in this article." meant you'd give a discussion on why you'd chosen the cards you did. Guess I'm a little disappointed you didn't do this in the end.

Finally, be honest with me. Did you at any point sneakily consider putting Moat on the banned list? ... What?!? ... I'm just saying is all :)

Painter has a lot of by AJ_Impy at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 05:39
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Painter has a lot of potential in Tribal: 2-card lock with Llawan, Cephalid Empress, taking out targetted spells and blocking with Absolute Law or Absolute Grace, a whole range of dirty tricks that I was planning to inflic* erm, that someone might bring to the table.

Orgion's picture

Hmm.. I can see how the locks are annoying, but they certainly aren't insurmountable. That is they aren't quite in the same league as the painter/grindstone lock are they?

I mean you've just gotta get rid of the servant right? The cephalid combo only stops blue creatures being played, the law and grace and to be fair any pro:color critter/enchantment/artifact only stops target and damage. Both changes to the game state have leeway to workaround, unlike the instant I win combo of painter/grindstone.

Still I guess it's your tournament and if you don't like those kinds of locks then that's fair. Incidentally, considering that kind lock I'd have thought that the Bitterblossom/Contamination lock might be considered serious enough to be watched for. Especially seeing as you could have in place by turn two regularly with only a single accelerant (chrome mox). Just a thought...

and seriously... scarecrows by Orgion at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 06:05
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and seriously... scarecrows and cephalids in the same tribal deck? What tribe are you playing? Mongrel? :)

Cephalids, when I tried it. by AJ_Impy at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 06:10
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Cephalids, when I tried it. Flimsy creatures, but awesome trickery capability.

Aj only gave a few examples i by Ranth at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 09:57
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Aj only gave a few examples i was able to come up with 10+ in less then 5 mins just type any color word and start search for abusive uses and then compare to how harmful grindstone is with pretty much any cards and you quickly see why painters was banned rather then the stone.

Also to note any tribal deck uses utility cards in their last 16-20 slots and painter can certainly be called a utility card.

You know it's interesting by Orgion at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 11:23
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You know it's interesting that you mention that Painter can certainly be called a utility card. I was always of the opinion that Tribal decks should really only contain creatures of the same type. Still, I'm happy to differ in opinion there.

I'm disappointed to see Iona, by AJ_Impy at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 06:07
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I'm disappointed to see Iona, Genny and Emmy go: As someone who has tried (and succeeded!) to hardcast all three in their respective tribes, their loss will be keenly felt. However, I recognise the need to attempt to keep combo in check.

Lol, if more players were by ShardFenix at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 09:04
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Lol, if more players were like you and did actually hardcast them they would not have been a problm...sadly, no one wanted to do that.

Heck, AJ admitted himself by kalandine at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 09:34
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Heck, AJ admitted himself that his Eldrazi deck was geared to either hardcast or cheat Emrakul into play.

And really, in an environment where Vesuva, Cloudpost, and Urzatron are all legal, hardcasting Emmy isn't exactly as challenging as intended, especially in a tournament where the combos that make Emmy unplayable in Classic are now banned out of the format.

hell for one of the most by Ranth at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 09:52
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hell for one of the most vocal and active advocates to get things banned (i know odd it was me of all people O.o) i'll keenly feel the bannings as well but as was mentioned earlier The list is only going to push the format into the desired direction and vision that most of the players had in mind so its a good thing.

I think the ban list ended up by endless at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 08:13
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I think the ban list ended up being a decent compromise. While certainly most users weren't completely satisfied with it, I've yet to meet anyone who think's the PRE will be worse because of it. I think that's a pretty remarkable feat in itself. Trying to stop the worst of combo, while still allowing some to exist in the format is a very tricky feat to pull off. I think most people realize that from this point forward the ban list will is created to keep things fun and playable for everyone. That said, I'm sad to see the demise of my eureka/show and tell eldrazi deck.

Overall, nice job on by kalandine at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 09:34
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4

Overall, nice job on balancing out everyone's opinions on the banned list.

One thing I would suggest doing is adding rules in case one of the banned cards shows up in the tournament. (May be replaced in deck with a basic land, for instance, with a game loss when it is played).

hopefully after a few weeks by Ranth at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 09:56
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hopefully after a few weeks of this revamp'd format people will see that I was at least an ass with a purpose. And im fully aware that we didn't catch everything (tooth and nail or hypergenesis anyone?) But I'd call this a great start that hopefully everyone will be happy with.

Ranth, I still maintain that by AJ_Impy at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 11:32
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Ranth, I still maintain that being an arse, with purpose or no, is not a viable method to get what you want. It sets a dangerous precedent in any walk of life.

eh okay so I wasnt really an by Ranth at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 15:09
Ranth's picture

eh okay so I wasnt really an "ass" I just went against the grain of the communities consensus of unwritten rules.

Now we're developing a rule set which while it wont stop people from complaining and bashing other players because of the "I didnt have fun factor" we've gone and taken great strides to hopefully discourage such behavior.

Also getting our format more publicity then it's had in a long time due to the controversy that was caused by the whole thing :).

as a note hypergenesis is on by ShardFenix at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 12:13
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as a note hypergenesis is on the watch list. As far as tooth and nail, well it wasnt unbeatable in standard when it was big. Its still good but I think compared to other options it is slightly more fair. And cards will move onto and off of the watch list as weeks progress. So what may not be closely watched now may be in a few weeks.

Standard didn't have the mana by Ranth at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 15:15
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Standard didn't have the mana acceleration and creature combo's that we currently have available to create that turn kills. (Not to say that it wasn't brutal in standard because it was but to use a common example kiki+ any critter that untaps something when it comes into play)

even that is easily stopped by ShardFenix at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 15:24
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even that is easily stopped though...

A combo that is disrupted by by StealthBadger at Thu, 07/08/2010 - 07:56
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A combo that is disrupted by any instant speed removal or bounce, as well as discard or countermagic seems fine to me?

Well it looks like Buried by ArchGenius at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 10:28
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3

Well it looks like Buried Alive, Dark Ritual, and Entomb escaped banning.... Which means makes me really want to make that Ornithopter deck....

Turn 1 Swamp, Dark Ritual, Buried Alive for 3 Vengevines, Ornithopter, Ornithoper, attack for 12....

It would not overly suprize by Ranth at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 15:25
Ranth's picture

It would not overly suprize me to see entomb make the banned list if people started actually affording the card and abusing it.

As for ritual and buried alive...Well i suppose thats one way to speed up Buried alive but obviously at the cost of your hand and available cards.

Besides for this type of deck thopters would be the least of my worries for a creature type...hell you gave me a great deck idea but i ain't spending no 100tics to make it happen lol.

I'm surprised that Moat by StealthBadger at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 10:51
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I'm surprised that Moat hasn't at least made the "watch list". It may not be a combo, but it is by far and away the most format-warping card we've seen. Nobody can play a deck planning on winning with ground creatures unless they're running upwards of 4 anti-enchantment cards (or a lot of countermagic and discard, which tends to be frowned upon). As a result, people are only playing flying tribes or decks which try to end the game without attacking (i.e. combo or burn).

While it doesn't immediately win the game in a literal sense, it is basically a one card combo to block a huge number of decks from ever showing up in the first place.

Ixnay on the oatmay... by AJ_Impy at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 11:30
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Ixnay on the oatmay... (shifty eyes.)

If it didn't warp the format, we'd end up with 'who can play their rush tribe first'. Checks and balances: Moat slows the format down and makes more tribes viable, resulting in a more interesting and diverse format. It isn't unbeatable by any means, and the fact it exists leads to decks with a greater capability to cope with noncreature threats.

I doubt that. There're plenty by StealthBadger at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 12:15
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I doubt that. There're plenty of other ways of slowing the game down than just moat. I completely disagree about moat making more tribes viable, it completely blocks any non-green/white aggressive tribes, and essentially prevents any "rush tribes" as you put it. There're plenty of cards (mass-removal, walls, lifegain etc.) which would stop aggro dominating the format without completely killing it off as a possibility.

I've run aggro decks, I've by AJ_Impy at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 12:27
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I've run aggro decks, I've run more controlling builds. I've won because of moat effects, I've lost because of moat effects. I see no reason to give them the boot.

Moat is a Rock Paper Scissors by Paul Leicht at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 15:40
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Moat is a Rock Paper Scissors card. You either play a deck that can answer moat if you suspect you will see moats or you don't. Every deck CAN have answers to moat if they want. Red and Black have plenty of fliers which completely negate moat. Green and White of course run enchantment removal and Blue can counter has fliers galore and can bounce it. Every color can splash for removal.

Asking for moat to be banned is imho just laziness in deck building. My decks one and all have ways to deal with Moat and other insanities. Yes it is annoying. No I don't have any moats anymore. Yes I think it is an insanely good card. No I don't think it should be banned any more than Force of Will or Swords To Plowshares or Hatred etc.

I didn't say it should be by StealthBadger at Thu, 07/08/2010 - 03:29
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I didn't say it should be banned. I said it should be watched. I just think the amount of tribes it's preventing is way way more than the amount of tribes it's "making viable", which is essentially just white flying creatures.

It's certainly not worth having an argument, I just think it should be watched.

I agree with keeping moat by endless at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 14:43
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I agree with keeping moat too. The cards to deal with moat most often won't be dead in your deck anyway. They're great for taking out artifacts or other enchants too.

What the ban moat crowd fails to mention, is that moat is a totally dead card vs a deck that is flying based. So you`re potentially putting yourself at a very severe disadvantage in a lot of match ups. I personally haven`t entered with a deck that wasn`t able to deal with moat yet.

While i agree that moat is a by Ranth at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 15:20
Ranth's picture

While i agree that moat is a brutal strategy and a admittedly format warping card there's plenty of effects that are similar even if not exact that would replace it if it got the ban(not that its a good reason to not ban it but just sayin).

I personally put it in the same category as the wheel/e-shield combo..Brutal,efficient, perhaps even unfair but every deck should have a way to deal with it.

Nice decks by Melissafey at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 17:46
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4

I like the revised list, we need to work with this now, to see what happens, it was a fun competition this week, some interesting decks the wheel/e-shield combo is not invincible I played against it in some practise matches, and a couple of times got round it. But all and all some interesting decks this week. Lets see what next week brings, going back to my out there tribes for next week.

woot ban hammer! i dont even by JustSin at Wed, 07/07/2010 - 18:59
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5

woot ban hammer!

i dont even have to read the article all you had to say was ban hammer and I was excited

that being said im hoping to find time again at some point to rejoin despite my frustrations with the format because im all for supporting the effort you make to keep it going, unfortunately getting a real job cuts back on mtgo time lol

I was thinking i would like by menace13 at Thu, 07/08/2010 - 08:14
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I was thinking i would like to play esp since the ban list is something i like. There are possibly a few other cards that could be on the watch list like: Oath,Entomb(angels like Akroma-both-,Platinum,Empyrial Archangel,Maelstrom,Bane). Buried alive could also be Intuition/Gifts in Reanimator decks. Humility can be built around Manlands,Planeswalkers, and Standstills while playing almost zero counters(like Std). Stiflenought(8 cards in any blue deck),Thopter Foundry(really good). Think of some more when i get back, but i'll run a few lists past you, Shard when i get back online.

Edit: Mind's Desire and Tendrils of Agony can be fit into a Mana Drain+Gush engine with rituals the tribe would be spirits for Kami of the Crescent Moon(Dark Confidant) and Spirit Guides to ramp out early, while Bloodghasts sac to Culling of the Weak. Very low land count 10-12. I have a list without Mana Drains that goldfishes turn 3-6.Drains would only increase the initial turn of critical mass.

So yeah Desire and Tendrils could go to ban/watch list. i think i can pull a totaly blue hi tide combo out with wizards using Desire.

Re-edit: This leaves Dream Halls,Eureka and WGDragon combo as potential abusers, I havent looked into them yet.

I'm looking to start playing by Drbenwayy at Fri, 07/09/2010 - 13:39
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I'm looking to start playing some PRE's and would like to try out this format. I had a few questions:

Do you run sideboards? I assumed yes but seemed odd there were none in the decklists.
Do I have to submit a decklist in advance or during the registration?
This Saturday I have an early hockey game and must leave by no later than 4. Three hours should be adequate time for the three rounds?

there are no sideboards which by ShardFenix at Fri, 07/09/2010 - 13:55
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there are no sideboards which is a format rule from wizards.
You only submit decklists at the end if you qualify for prizes.
3 hours is normally more than enough.