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By: Tribal Apocalypse, Tribal Apocalypse
Sep 04 2014 12:00pm
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 Welcome back to Tribal Apocalypse!

   Table of Contents 

  1. Last Week on Tribal Apocalypse...
  2. The High Price of Winning
  3. Smawatts' War Report
  4. Show and Tell
  5. Announcement Time!
  6. What's Next

Check the full archive for the "Diaries of the Apocalypse" series

by Kumagoro

 A week later, and so much had happened in the world of Magic! For one, as you all probably already know, the way the sets are released has been entirely revised, in an event that Mark Rosewater appropriately called Metamorphosis. Also, we know a lot more about the upcoming Khans of Tarkir (a.k.a. the last 3-set block ever), as the spoiler season kicked into high gear.


Left to right: Sarkhan is pulling a Nissa; a new Noble Hierarch is born; is Ugin going to show up?

 What does all this mean for Tribal Wars specifically? Well, it means something. The fact that, starting next year (or, more precisely, 2016), we'll get 2 blocks per Magic year will make more likely for any given tribe to get a boost, since more different worlds means more different themes and tribal inhabitants. As for Khans of Tarkir, players across all formats (from Vintage to Standard, but especially Legacy and Modern) are overjoyed by this soon-to-be-reprinted cycle:



Pictured: Hell, yeah!

 Cheap allied-colors fetch lands? Some "Thanks, Wizards" is in order. (Also some "It was about time, Wizards", considering how weird it was for Modern to have only half of the cycle available). Wiser players than me can't stress enough how important a proper land base is for any kind of multicolored build, and nothing is more important than fetch lands for that. Heck, they are important in monocolored builds, too! Time to do something about that, come October 6.

 This said, the opinion section this week leaks a bit into the report, so I'll see you there.


  • Event Number: 4.34, Week 191 BE
  • Date: August 30
  • Attendance: 17
  • Rounds: 4
  • Subformat: Pure Tribal (no off-tribe creatures, complete rules here)
  • Winner: MisterMojoRising (Elemental)
  • 1 Loss: LeilaPari (Merfolk), ScionOfJustice (Vampire), arcbounddaylabor (Faerie), smawatts (Cat), Deonmag (Zombie)
  • Special Prizes: Underdog Prize to m4vis (Kobold)
  • Tribes: Angel, Cat, Elemental, Elf, Faerie, Human (x4), Kobold, Kor, Merfolk, Rogue, Sliver, Vampire, Wall, Zombie
  • Event link (with all players, pairings, standings, decks, and results): here it is

 With this new victory, the unstoppable MisterMojoRising is now 21 points ahead of romellos and 46 points ahead of mihahitlor in the seasonal scoreboard (the real fight seems to be for the coveted 8th place between me, smawatts and AJ_Impy). MisterMojo's decks are often very straightforward, as perfectly represented by this Elemental burn build, which is as sophisticated as a punch in the face.

by MisterMojoRising - 1st place
4 Ball Lightning
4 Hell's Thunder
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Skizzik
4 Spark Elemental
20 cards

Other Spells
4 Chain Lightning
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Earthquake
4 Rolling Earthquake
16 cards
20 Mountain
4 Mishra's Factory
24 cards
Hell's Thunder


 Ball Lightning has now been purified (= banned from further Pure events), so we'll see if this build is still viable after that.

 Newcomer LeilaPari is the first of the defeated, and Merfolk pops up in the Top 4 for the first time since a while. Merfolk never had great fortune in Tribal Apocalypse, barely making to the Top 10 list of winning tribes.


 One of the top top tribes also made a comeback this week, thanks to smawatts who brought Cat back to relevant zones of an event's final standings.


 Look at poor, old Grasslands doing its best impression of Windswept Heath! Khans of Tarkir can't arrive soon enough.

 For the rest, m4vis was trying the fascinating yet inconsistent route of combo Kobolds... with not a lot of the usual combo pieces to be honest (no storm spells, and off-tribe Protean Hulk is illegal in Pure events anyway. As is Lightning Bolt, in case you wondered).


 Ensnaring Bridge is certainly the right card here. Dragon's Claw probably not so much. Also, the name of the deck (by m4vis) is a big part of the reason why I'm featuring it.

 As for me, I made a concept deck that, for once, had the potential of doing well, too. It didn't, but mostly out of bad luck and lag (seriously, is anybody else experiencing mad lag sometimes? My PC and connection are top notch now, and I still lose games to lag. So annoying). I'll bring these Humans back, because they're a lot of fun and have brilliant synergies.


 See, the basic idea was to build something where I could use Primeval Bounty, because I fell in love with it recently. Also Spawning Grounds. So big enchantments galore.


The true Bestial Menace!

 You can find a deck tech for the build in the Show and Tell section below.

 A semi-related note: I created a rule in the Rules Page (rule f3, under the "Tribal Identity" section) where it's established once and for all that all token generators are to be considered tribal neutral. This is to avoid debates that I honestly find annoying and sterile. Magic is a complex game. We thrive within that complexity. Then there's the flavor. The flavor, like art, is subjective. Still, such subjectivity may end up twisting the flavor, taking it to radical, extremist positions that I personally find off-putting. Saying, for instance, that Master of the Wild Hunt is not a kosher card for Human because then you win with Wolves is sheer madness. The flavor is clear, and honestly also intellectually bullet-proof: the ancient myth of the Wild Hunt mixed with the fact that humans have gone hunting accompanied by trained hounds since Stone Age. This is as "pure" as it gets, despite being ultimately meaningless, because flavor doesn't influence the rules in any possible way. Flavor isn't even something R&D entirely creates, since creature types are mostly added afterwards by the creative department, sometimes randomly. Beast, in particular, just means "generic green creature". Garruk, who's a green-aligned human, summons Beasts. And, case in point, Wolves.

 There's also the very baffling idea that "you have to win with your tribe" means you have to go aggro with it and have one member deal the finishing blow (alternatively, I don't know, have one member deck the opponent with an activated ability or something). This seems a naive approach to the game as a whole. If you put Helm of Obedience and Rest in Peace in your deck, and that's your wincon, then yes, the tribal aspect is non-existent. But if you're going Painter's Servant/Grindstone in a Scarecrow build, then you're exploiting a peculiarity of a particular member of that tribe. If you have a Cloudpost base and cast Ulamog with it in a Golem deck, your Golems aren't taking part in the action. (Note that all these cases are perfectly legal in the appropriate events. We're just talking flavor again, or at least non-game-relevant meta-evaluations). But if you cast Ulamog in an Elf deck, it's the Elves that win. Because if they were, say, Vampires instead, you wouldn't have been able to cast that Ulamog. The ways a tribe wins are more subtle than just turning tribal members sideways for the alpha strike.

 While we're talking new rules and in-game debates, there's an old rule section of which existence I want to remind you. It's been there all along. In fact, most of it was penned in the current form already by BlippyTheSlug himself (praise him). It's section B, concerning player behaviour:

  1. Please refrain from talking in other players' games, or PMing players in a game. This will allow players to concentrate fully without interruption. REPEATED VIOLATIONS WILL BE SCREENSHOT AND REPORTED TO WotC FOR HARASSMENT.
  2. Bullying, mobbing, foul language, and general rudeness will not be tolerated. This includes "snide remarks" about deck choices and playing ability, personal attacks, and such.
  3. A player will get a first warning for any proved instance of such behaviour. A further violation will result in immediate ejection from the event, with forfeiture of all prizes. Repeated violations over time may cause permanent banning.

 I didn't enforce these rules so far, or have to. I'll start paying more attention now. I lost a match myself because people were talking in my game, and I couldn't keep my cool. Now, I'm the host, so I can't really use these rules to defend myself, or it would feel like an arbitrary abuse of power. So in these cases I'm just bound to end up fuming against the talkers, and myself for not being able to ignore them or kindly invite them to shut up, and that's okay. But if it were another player in my place, that would be unacceptable. So it won't be accepted in the future. As for the bullying, please note that the definition of it depends on the bullied's sensibility. What some people take in stride, others don't. So we're not only talking about blatant, gross insults here. Sometimes it's more subtle, almost equally damaging.



 Here's the prices of all the featured decks (wait for more in the following weeks, pending technical developments), courtesy of the amazing Deck Pricer from mtgGoldfish (MTGO Traders prices as of September 4, 2014):

 The Top 10 Cheapest Decks that Went Undefeated

  1. morpphling's Goblins, $2.35, 2nd place on Event 102
  2. Gq1rf7's Goblins, $3.32, 1st place on Event 154 (cheapest event winner)
  3. Gq1rf7's Goblins, $3.58, 1st place on Event 169
  4. Gq1rf7's Goblins, $3.70, 1st place on Event 145
  5. Gq1rf7's Goblins, $4.12, 2nd place on Event 141
  6. Gq1rf7's Assassins, $4.18, 1st place on Event 147
  7. Trickerie's Golems, $4.31, 1st place on Event 138
  8. Gq1rf7's Vampires, $4.38, 2nd place on Event 188
  9. arcbounddaylabor's Goblins, $4.46, 1st place on Event 111
  10. Coolcat1678's Elves, $5.13, 2nd place on Event 149

 NOTE: not adjusted to current prices; data collected since Event 85.

by Smawatts

 NOTE: smawatts couldn't submit a write-up in time for this event's games. You'll have to just listen to him talking in medias res in the videos this time!

 The Cat list.

 Round 1: Against AJ_Impy with Angels.

 Round 3: Against ScionOfJustice with Vampires. [NOTE: Round 2 against arekdahl with Kor was a win by no-show]

 Round 4: Against Golden_Lin with Slivers.

by Kumagoro


 A deck tech of my Human list. Once I had established I wanted to play with big enchantments (who doesn't?), the natural choice of creature is of course Academy Rector.

Cheating big enchaments into play since last century.

 This put me in either Human or Cleric. Human was obviously large enough for me to find other useful interactions. First I have to decide which enchantments the Rector was going to give me. I know I wanted these two:


Green really stepped up its big enchantment game, lately.

 Both work well with Doubling Season, also a favorite of mine. So this was going to be the theme of the deck: things that either help or interact the Doubling Season plan.

Cooler card has never been printed.

 The Tribal Base (20 cards)

 Academy Rector Academy Rector: The engine of the deck. Interacts with all the enchantments, and with the sacrifice outlets Phyrexian Tower, High Market and Spawning Pit.

 Mayor of Avabruck Master of the Wild Hunt Mayor of Avabruck and Master of the Wild Hunt: Both create tokens that Doubling Season can double.

 Knight of the Reliquary Knight of the Reliquary: Fetches the Tower and the Market, interacts with Primeval Bounty by tapping for 5 life.

 Mikaeus, the Lunarch Mikaeus, the Lunarch: His counters are also doubled by the Season.

 Avacyn's Pilgrim Avacyn's Pilgrim: I felt like I needed some early accelerators. In an ideal world, this would be Noble Hierarch (if I owned them), but the Pilgrim mostly makes do.

 The Enchantment Suite (8 cards)

 Primeval Bounty Primeval Bounty: It's one of those cards that you are not sure about until you try it firsthand. Basically, once Bounty is on the board, everything you do is enhanced. Your life total starts getting back, your team starts growing both in number and size. And in the meantime, you're just playing your game as usual.

 Spawning Grounds Spawning Grounds: 5/5 tramplers for 1 mana is a mean deal. I could have tried to abuse it with some untappers (maybe going with the Druid tribe and the Rectors off-tribe, in a non-Pure event). But I didn't want to rely too much on it alone. The best moment is when you have both Bounty and Grounds at once, and your near-free Beasts start swinging as 8/8s or more. The greatest value is after sweepers. Another thing a Selesnya deck could do if it made Spawning Grounds its centerpiece is include some Wrath effect.

 Doubling Season Doubling Season: Interacts with pretty much the entire deck. In particular, it has a sub-combo with Spawning Pit.

 Mirari's Wake Mirari's Wake: It's there to fetch in case I have a big ench stuck in hand. Plus, it gives everything a boost, which is especially useful with Awakening Zone's tokens.

 Awakening Zone Awakening Zone: It's probably superfluous, as I certainly won't fetch it with the Rectors (I might want to fetch it with the Enlightened Tutors, though). But I like the card, and it's an accelerator more that doubles as chump-blocker that doubles as aggro if Mirari's Wake is around. Also, in a pinch, gives a target for Primeval Bounty's counters, which is crucial after-sweeper.

 Asceticism Asceticism: It's the 5th and last high-cost enchantment. Mostly there to try and protect the Masters against removal-heavy decks. It's a good, underplayed card. Not sure it's worth the slot, though.

 Banishing Light Aura Shards Banishing Light and Aura Shards: Removal via enchantments, mostly fetched by Tutors, and by Rectors only in case of true emergency. Aura Shards nicely interacts with all token generators.

 The Supporting Players (9 cards)

 Enlightened Tutor Enlightened Tutor: A couple tutors to build on the Rector's fetching theme. If I have the mana, using the Tutors is faster than all the work a Rector sometimes needs to pay off. I'm considering replacing one or both with Sterling Grove, which has a similar role but also doubles as protection for my enchanted big guns.

 Spawning Pit Spawning Pit: It's in equal measure a sacrifice outlet for the Rectors and a combo piece for Doubling Season, which in turn justifies the presence of Mirari's Wake, as the more mana I have, the more 2/2s I can spawn (with Pit and Season on the board, 1 mana = 1 creature, as you get double the counters and double the tokens, so you can sacrifice the extra token to get 2 more counters, which generate 2 more tokens, and so on). It's also fetchable via Enlightened Tutor.

 Council's Judgment Council's Judgment: I wanted to be competitive, so I forced myself to devote 4 slots to pure removal. The deck would have liked better Swords to Plowshares here, because it otherwise has a lot of stuff to do in midrange. But StP isn't legal in Pure, so Judgment is the next best thing (sometimes better, of course). Maybe these slots should be given to sweepers, though.

 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes Ajani, Mentor of Heroes: Pretty much any planeswalker is bound to be good in a Doubling Season deck, especially the ones that also deal with tokens or counters as part of their abilities. This seemed like the right build to test the green Ajani, though. His first ability is doubled, and the second can fetch Spawning Grounds too. It's a good, not great fella.

 The Mana Base (23 cards)

 Phyrexian Tower High Market Phyrexian Tower and High Market: Sac outlets for the Rector. The Tower can also nicely ramp up by eating one of the tokens, if necessary.

 Gavony Township Gavony Township: More counter shenanigans. Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree was also a possibility, going into the other direction.

 Gaea's Cradle Gaea's Cradle: You would think a Cradle would be at home in this deck. Of course it is, but I still managed to be trumped by it in one occasion when I needed a 4th mana and couldn't find an earlier creature. Harrumph.

 The Battleplan

 There's not one single plan, which is the cool part, but ideally you want to sac a Rector to get to either Primeval Bounty or Spawning Grounds as soon as possible. Bounty is better against opponents that don't run Wasteland, of course, although as a rule of thumb, you should try and put Grounds on basic lands if possible. If you have one of the big enchs in hand, fetch Mirari's Wake. Other enchs are fetched on a need basis. Doubling Season is usually fetched as the second ench in midrange, to enhance the first one, be it either Bounty or Grounds, and/or to combo with Spawning Pit, or a Human token generator, or occasionally Mikaeus. An ideal turn 4 has Knight of the Reliquary fetching a sacrifice outlet for an Academy Rector played with the assistance of Avacyn's Pilgrim.


 Just to remind you of a few things:


 Cockatrice Wants You! And Badger, too! Be the first to win a match with freshly promoted to tribes Cockatrice or Badger and you'll win 1 tix. Remember: only tribes with at least 3 members are effectively considered tribes in Tribal Apocalypse (since tribes that field an equal or greater number of Changelings than actual members count as Shapeshifter decks). Tribes with exactly 3 members are allowed to play in Underdog events with 8 slots filled by Changelings, whereas nobody else (but, of course, Shapeshifter decks) can play with more than 4 Changelings in those events. And of course this will happen only as soon as the Changelings will work on V4 as promised.

 The Underdog Prize: During any event of the regular rotation (but not during the one-time special events), all players who are running an Underdog Tribe are eligible for a 1-tix credit on Pennybot. The tie-breakers are first the number of Underdog categories (for instance, a tribe that's simultaneously Endangered and Unhallowed will take the prize over one that's only Endangered), then the points achieved in the final standings. During Underdog events, only the True Underdog tribes are rewarded (those are the tribes belonging to all three categories of Underdog at once).

 The Up-and-Coming Prize: When a tribe wins an event for the first time ever (losing Unhallowed status), its pilot will get a 3-tix certificate from MTGO Traders.

 The Hamtastic Award: The Biodiversity Prize dedicated to the memory of Erik Friborg has started the third quarter of 2014. The quarter will end September 27. By that date, the player or players who registered the greatest number of different tribes will get a 5-tix certificate from MTGO Traders.

 The Tribal Achievements: The new list of achievements for the 2014 season is here. Unlock the most of them by the end of the year and you'll share a 25-tix Jackpot.

 The Champion's Challenge: AJ_Impy, our reigning Ultimate Tribal Champion, has issued a running challenge of his own: play with a deck featuring 4 copies of a card he'll nominate, and win 3 matches with it during a single event, and AJ will reward you with 1 tix (which you'll keep as eternal memento because it's the tix the Ultimate Champion gave you). You'll be required to prove through a screenshot (or calling either me or him as witnesses, but only if we're not playing!) that you actually played the card and/or activated the card's abilities at least once during the event. And the first chosen card is... Sunforger! Good luck, folks!

 The Top Players Lockout: Every time a Top Player (either a Google Era Top 8, an Ultimate Champion/Tribal Player of the Year, or a seasonal Top 8) will end undefeated, they will not be allowed to register the same tribe and deck again for 5 events (i.e. they'll have to register a different deck or decks 5 times before coming back to the undefeated one). With "deck" is meant a specific, recognizable archetype (e.g. Wall-Drazi), which in some case will be linked to a specific combo card (e.g. Helm of Obedience). A list of the current lockouts is maintained here.

 Videos: Send us replays of your games and we'll feature them in these articles! Don't know how? Read this quick guide in 5 easy steps and start saving your tribal feats for posterity!


 The upcoming Tribal Apocalypse events of the Blippian Era (every Saturday at 17:00 GMT):

  • 4.35 (Week 192 BE), on September 6: Tribal Underdog (only Underdog Tribes allowed)
  • 4.36 (Week 193 BE), on September 13: Regular Tribal (just plain old Legacy Tribal Wars)
  • 4.37 (Week 194 BE), on September 20: Tribal Kaleidoscope (only multicolored cards and lands)
  • 4.38 (Week 195 BE), on September 27: Pure Tribal (no off-tribe creatures, complete rules here)

Check out the full Tribal Calendar for 2014!

Vote for your favorite ETB Creature on the Topdeck Awards!



Since I was inadvertently by Paul Leicht at Thu, 09/04/2014 - 13:12
Paul Leicht's picture

Since I was inadvertently party to you losing your cool let me repeat what I said in the match: I liked your deck. I don't see anything wrong with bending the "spirit" of the game in order to make your deck viable. Without that ability many poorer tribes would go unnoticed. I hate it when its something like plants into Eldrazi. That does not seem like a reasonable use of your tribe. But at the same time it IS legit. And we should expect no less from the plant/wall player.

Imho if Grindstone/Painter is OK, then Helm/Line etc is OK. Either combos are cool for all or they aren't. Winning with the tribe is a joke I hope. The spirit of the tribe is one thing. Having to be an aggro player just to satisfy it is another. Lets hope you misunderstood that line of thinking. *shudder*

My apologies if my comments were out of line. I visit when I am not playing because I am a fan of the event, not to disrupt it. I do think people expressing their genuine opinions about the format in general is no malicious act but I can see how it would be upsetting if you felt like you were being framed as the bad guy. You are not the bad guy so don't even go there when people make commentary. As for making use of the official rules, that seems entirely unnecessary. Those are in place to stop people from bullying others not to stifle all input without discretion.

Also I think it is entirely appropriate to say "hey fellas, take it elsewhere" or even "shut the heck up please, trying to playing a game here." Anyone should be able to say those things and have them respected. That isn't about obeying a rule so much as just etiquette. If some aren't willing to be civil then you can bring in the rules book and slap them about.

Thanks again for being the host. Not a job I wanted to do and I am grateful you do it so that the events still happen.

I think everything is okay. by Kumagoro42 at Thu, 09/04/2014 - 16:08
Kumagoro42's picture

I think everything is okay. We have to stop trying to force our personal vision on other people. Everyone can do what they please, it's a freaking game most of us (all of us?) play to have some fun, maybe forget for half a hour the troubles we all have in our lives this side of the screen.

If one wants to only make decks in a certain way, more power to them. If one wants to only make decks where every card starts with the same letter, that's great. I'd celebrate that guy. Provided they won't start saying that this is the way everyone should play.

Everyone can only serve their own version of the "spirit of the game", because nobody can possibly know what it is. Even "reasonable" is subjective. That Eldrazi you mention is the finisher of a ramp deck. The ramp tribe is what made possible for the Eldrazi to exist. It's not the Eldrazi that made the ramp tribe win; it's the ramp tribe that made the Eldrazi win. They could have used a fireball, instead. The Eldrazi, in that moment, is just a (sometimes strictly worse) Banefire. You can easily switch it for that, but you can't switch the tribe under the Eldrazi's feet for a non-ramp tribe. The hypocrisy, to me, is that Banefire wouldn't be seen as "wrong", yet the Eldrazi is. More so, many planeswalkers are able to win the game on their own. If we take this logic to its extreme, then planeswalkers should be banned/shunned in Tribal Wars because they are almost never "tribal".

Walls don't even have any real wincon if we exclude weak oddities like Vent Sentinel (which isn't even in tribe) or Rolling Stones. So what, a Wall player should feel bad having built a deck that actually does something? Or feel good if the finisher is a burn spell or some big money planeswalker rather than, I don't know, Force of Nature? Or Wall shouldn't be played at all? I really fail to see the issue here.

Especially because it's all terribly misguided. These are all non-issues because they only speak to a certain way to conceive the format philosophically, not to the actual meat and potato of the events. The decks that actually win week in week out and twist the formats are all absolutely pristine builds like that Elemental deck up there. They're also very unimaginative, if you ask me. I defend the right to be unimaginative if one feels like that, but the moment the guy who tries to do something different gets attacked because of some alleged flaw that's even almost entirely imaginary, you just push everyone into playing some variant of 20 Goblins 20 Lightning Bolts 20 lands. Which is everyone's right to do, but it's certainly more worrying, if we fear we risk to succumb to boredom, than it is playing with an off-tribe finisher, let alone playing with a generic card that happens to generate the wrong (?) thing of creature.

I don't want to hear anything that sounds like unfair criticisms ever. But if one really has to, at least let's have it at the random Tarmogoyf, not at builds that have actually some thought behind them. (And even the poor Tarmo should be mostly excused, if you think at how hard is to play them in their own tribe). (It's not a terrible tribe, it's just not what you want to play often).

For the rest, Grindstone/Painter and Helm/Line are different in that one stems from a tribe, the other doesn't. So if one wants to avoid wincons not inherent in the tribe, they would be better off using the former, not the latter.

I established I won't use the mentioned (and very old) rules to protect myself, so I'm bound to only apply them to proven cases of actual, documented issues. So no worries there. It's just something maybe people don't report too much; but they should, because it's important everyone knows their serenity is very much valued around here.

Tossing around pejoratives by Paul Leicht at Thu, 09/04/2014 - 16:34
Paul Leicht's picture

Tossing around pejoratives like hypocrisy really serves no one. Unless the point is to be offensive. I can understand that as you clearly seemed to feel attacked. However, you aren't serving your argument that way.

I agree with your general position which is why I don't like the bans. At all. But if people want to play in a contrived manner with assurances that they won't face xyz broken.stuff I am cool with that too. I just may not participate. (Probably wont anyway as I have said elsewhere, the time frame isn't for me.)

Can't help having the people who play Goblins/Bolts because to some that IS the point of the game. The challenge is finding ways to overcome that simplistic approach without failing to your own complexity issues. That's always been my downfall. I found I had a lot more success with singleton/doubleton strategies because I understand how that game plays out, much better than the 16 bolts 20 gobs (or whatever build people use that provides compact utility.) Or maybe I just got luckier in my match ups. Who knows/Cares?

As for serenity, that is an unlikely occurrence when it comes to a competitive spirit in a weekly sometimes ego-driven conflict. But I wish you and everyone the best of luck with that. And I agree people should speak up if they are feeling pushed past their limits by others behaviors.

I am of the mind that criticism has value. It is trying to quash such that leads to stultification. It is not true that all criticism is equal. And if I were in your shoes I would ask, nay demand, that if it is given at all, it been given civilly and with positive spin.

And as I said before I apologize if my off-the-cuff commentary offended. It shouldn't have imho as it wasn't meant as a knock but combined with what AJ said and your penchant for being a bit fiery...lets just say I'd be happier if you acknowledged my intent here and accepted it rather than go off on a tangential response.

I didn't mean to hurl by Kumagoro42 at Thu, 09/04/2014 - 16:58
Kumagoro42's picture

I didn't mean to hurl hypocrisy accusations against anyone, let alone you. I was just defining what constitutes a hypocritical attitude. It's a fact of life. None of us is really free from it, it's a human flaw. I suffer from it, occasionally. "Do as I say, not as I do", you know? (If anything, ego-driven is heavier. But also true of the human mind).

Criticisms are certainly useful in general. I probably should have written, "non-constructive criticisms said in the wrong tone". Chances are those criticisms more often come from someone who's losing the game, anyway. I think being sore losers is what generate the vast majority of problems with Magic players, no?

I also forgot to say in the other (too long) post: apologies absolutely not needed.

I urge reconsidering the by AJ_Impy at Thu, 09/04/2014 - 13:59
AJ_Impy's picture

I urge reconsidering the token rule for Pure events. Failing that, change the ethos of the event. What's the point of restricting people from adding in creatures outside their tribe and then formalising a loophole to allow them to add in creatures from outside their tribe? I get the impression this particular rule was created in anger ('to avoid debates that I honestly find annoying and sterile'.) Given the swords issue is now resolved, why not put it to the player base?

You are, however, absolutely correct on bullying. I am the guilty party in this particular instance, and you would not be out of line in holding me to a stricter standard of conduct if you see fit to do so with regards the incident in question.

There's not a token rule for by Kumagoro42 at Thu, 09/04/2014 - 16:49
Kumagoro42's picture

There's not a token rule for Pure events. Tokens are part of the game just like instants, sorceries, lands. Tribal Wars is not an aesthetic contest. Magic is far from aesthetically consistent, flavor-wise. It's a game where a tree can wear boots, a worm can brandish swords. Where you kill a Lightning Elemental with a Lightning Bolt. Worrying about these things is like worrying about the verisimilitude of chess pieces. Many lands and spells have clear allegiances (some of them even have watermarks proving it), and yet we don't worry about them being used n the "wrong" tribe.

These are extremes nobody wants to go, and I don't understand why you're so worked up about them. You're talking about not allowing:

- Emeria Angel in Angel decks
- Skeletal Vampire in Vampire decks
- Teysa, Orzhov Scion in Human or Advisor decks
- Master of the Wild Hunt in Human or Shaman decks
- Endrek Sahr in Human or Wizard decks
- Geist-Honered Monk in Human or Monk decks
- Knight-Captain of Eos in Human or Knight decks
- Avenger of Zendikar in Elemental decks
- Master of Waves in Merfolk or Wizard decks

...and dozens of others (which, ironically, would be allowed in their token's tribe as auxiliaries). The game WANTS you to make connections between tribes. It's not "impure" to allow them, because they're hardwired in those tribes' very DNA.

As for the spells, they're just magical effects. The tribal base is one thing. But the tokens that something creates aren't neither part of nor extraneous to the tribe, because it's just what the non-tribal part of the deck does. Summoning a magical wolf is not different than conjuring a magical fire. And, as I already noted, most of the tokens are strictly defined by the color pie. Green magic creates beasts or wolves. White magic creates spirits. And so on. It's not like you have the choice to create whatever. Elementalists are wizard (like Master of Waves) that create elementals. It's what they do. If you negate that, you negate the sense itself of why a card was made that way.

I'll never allow a format that works this way. Because:

1. It loses part of the flavor of the game.

2. It doesn't solve any problem, it's just something you personally don't like. But I, for one, do like very much that there are well-defined friendships and alliances and the idea that a magic user/mystical type is able to summon lesser servants that fight alongside it. An angel surrounded by doves? A vampire surrounded by bats? Yes, please!

3. It would be terribly unpopular.

4. It would limit the creativity, pushing more players towards the Goblin Way.

5. It would be annoyingly hard to implement.

I'm sorry, I don't believe in this vision. In fact, I abhor it.
To convince me that point 3 is not true, find 20 people that would be happy to have a format where you can't create tokens of type different than your tribe (which in 90% of the case means you can't create tokens unless you play 3 or 4 specific tribes).

I have no problem whatsoever by AJ_Impy at Thu, 09/04/2014 - 17:41
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I have no problem whatsoever with a member of a tribe that creates tokens offtribe being legal. Different argument entirely, I'm entirely fine with all that. Every single example you give, I have no problem with at all. Absolutely. It's all good.

We are in complete agreement on:

- Emeria Angel in Angel decks
- Skeletal Vampire in Vampire decks
- Teysa, Orzhov Scion in Human or Advisor decks
- Master of the Wild Hunt in Human or Shaman decks
- Endrek Sahr in Human or Wizard decks
- Geist-Honered Monk in Human or Monk decks
- Knight-Captain of Eos in Human or Knight decks
- Avenger of Zendikar in Elemental decks
- Master of Waves in Merfolk or Wizard decks

We both are fine with them being in the format, always and forever.


What I don't like is cards *which are not part of a tribe, related to a tribe or tied to a tribe*, which produce tokens *which are not part of a tribe, related to a tribe or tied to a tribe*, put in decks in the one week out of every five which disallows creatures *which are not part of a tribe, related to a tribe or tied to a tribe*.

That's it.

"tokens which are not part of by Kumagoro42 at Sat, 09/06/2014 - 15:26
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"tokens which are not part of a tribe, related to a tribe or tied to a tribe"

Well, this looks like a pretty large definition. For instance, cards like Master of the Wild Hunt establish that Wolf is tied to Human. They are the hunting hounds in fantasy wilderness-based cultures.

Beast is as generic a moniker as it gets, and the tribe is directly tied to Human and Elf, and can be seen as what many tribes would have as either minions or "cousins" (of all things that are "a beast by any other name", like Kavu or Lhurgoyf).

Spirit is tied to everything, because one of the many faces of the Spirit tribe is being ghosts of the departed (especially the white Spirits), and any tribe should be allowed to summon the souls of their dead ones. In fact, this is referenced mechanically and flavor-wise multiple times across the game. There shouldn't be actually anything problematic with a Human deck using Spectral Procession, because several Humans are tied to Spirits and able to create/summon them. Why shouldn't their deck as a whole do the same? (We purified it because of meta-relevance in WW builds, not exactly for thematic reasons).

And look at the Spawn tokens from Spawning Pit: they are specifically designed to feel as "generic thing someone create as a servitor". They're not tied to anything particular, therefore to everything in general.

If you keep going with this approach, the only "un-tied" token generators would mostly be Bitterblossom (since Faerie aren't really tied to anything but themselves, at least officially), cards that create Elf tokens (same as above), and cards that create unusual tokens like Squid.
I don't think there's a need to go and demonize any of them (Bitterblossom is the only strong one, and it rarely shows up. We can easily say that cards with the Tribal type are banned in Pure except for their tribes).

I'm mostly opposed to anything going in this direction, because I see the goal of deckbuilding in Tribal Wars as twofold: 1. Make the deck work, 2. Make the deck interesting. And if I'm arbitrarily deprived of, say, using Primeval Bounty anywhere but in Beast decks, I wouldn't be able to make it work, and I will have a tool less to make things interesting, so I would find myself one step closer to boredom and blandness. (I would say that is also a matter of avoiding both unnecessary complexity in an already overcomplicated meta, and an unnecessary demanding implementation, but these reasons, that very much exist, are less important to me).

I'm not asking for anything by AJ_Impy at Sun, 09/07/2014 - 07:02
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I'm not asking for anything to be taken out of Tribal Wars as a whole. I'm just saying it is pointless marking an event as 'Pure' and having its schtick be 'No offtribe creatures' and then allowing offtribe creatures so long as they're tokens.

We continue to differ on definitions. I'm not going to say 'No, you're defining it wrong', because that's just quibbling over minutiae. In terms of links, I was thinking on a card by card basis, not a blanket free pass just because one ontribe card mentions a token type. So, Master of the Wild Hunt, being a human, would be fine in a human deck, complete with the wolf tokens it generates. Sound the call, being a card which produces wolf tokens but has no other tribal connection or association, would be absolutely fine most weeks, except for Pure which restricts offtribe creatures, for exactly the same reason that Tundra Wolves would not be allowed in the deck.

If we're going to have pure as 'Your tribe only', then let's really have it as 'Your tribe only'. Every other week, every other event, then sure, spam tokens to your heart's content, break Primeval bounty backwards both ways for fun and profit, and generate 1024 Marit Lage tokens at once. But let's not have an event which restricts your creature selection to a given tribe and then break that restriction. Keep Pure Pure. That's all I ask.

Okay, you asked.The answer by Kumagoro42 at Sat, 09/13/2014 - 12:45
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Okay, you asked.
The answer is: sorry, no.

Pure already has Gods and off-tribe lords. It's not "pure" the way you intend it. I'm not going to take away cards (many, many cards) that operate under the same guidelines of the lords. Because:

1. It's not necessary by meta, it'd be just an aesthetic choice, and I don't like that aesthetic nor think it's conceptually justified.

2. It'd involve yet another complicate rule to remember and enforce (not automatically), and Pure is already on the verge of collapse under its own complexity.

3. The environment is already restricted enough, and constantly losing cards week by week.

4. Pure has to be the terrain for experimentation, so THAT's where I should be free to break Primeval Bounty. Because I can't really do it anywhere else (Regular is a jungle, Underdog limits my tribal options). So what you ask me is: "Let's do this change that hinders creativity across the entire tournament and pleases just one player (that I know of) based on his personal aesthetic sense". Again, no, but thanks for asking.

The day there will be 20+ regular players asking for the ban of Awakening Zone and Spawning Pit in Pure, because they can't tolerate them anymore, we'll talk about it again.

In the meantime, please refrain from any comment or remark or quip on the topic to your opponents, both in their games or in the room, since those players have all the rights to create within the established rules, and their personal aesthetics might consider aberrant some of the choices you make, for all you know. As Winter noted, criticism is very helpful. Yet now when it doesn't push towards objective betterment, and it's rather just based on subjective opinions, along the lines of, "This is wrong because it's ugly to me".

The Spirit of the Game by Smawatts at Thu, 09/04/2014 - 17:45
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My two cents for whatever it is worth is that spirit of the game doesn't exist, because getting two people to agree straight down the line on it is next impossible. There just isn't one spirit of the rules, game, or environment. There are as many different spirits of the game as there are players.

I for one think that the tokens being legal makes sense the spell doesn't have a creature type. Lingering souls is not a spirit sorcery, tribal spells do exist and they are a more gray area that I am personally unsure of in the rules currently but I would think they would not be legal.

I actually wrote up the war report and thought I had already sent it off because sometimes I am not the sharpest knife in the knife thing. As a side note I realized afterward that I got the mull to 3 and win achievement in game 2 of round 3.

So now we are getting a Naga by Rerepete at Thu, 09/04/2014 - 19:40
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So now we are getting a Naga tribe on KoT?

Yup, with at least two by AJ_Impy at Thu, 09/04/2014 - 20:06
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Yup, with at least two members known so far. These snake people differ from the Orochi of Kamigawa by having the lower torso of a snake, which makes them less snakelike than the four-armed, two-legged Kamigawans. They also differ from the snake coiled oracle, which has much the same hominid torso/snake tail configuration.

At least the Rakshasa are cat demons. :D

That actually ticked me off. by Paul Leicht at Sat, 09/06/2014 - 16:22
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That actually ticked me off. They are demons (shapechangers) in Hindi culture/myth who look a little bit like Were Tigers (not Tigers mind you, but Therianthropes of Tigers>) Give me my Demon Shapechangers dammit!! None of this "cat demon" crap.

Horror in the Heights... by Fred1160 at Fri, 09/12/2014 - 13:36
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Ever since I saw a rakshasa on Night Stalker I've wanted to see a Magic card with a rakshasa on it.
This ain't it. I'm disappointed that it turned out to be a "cat demon."
Paul is right. These guys are shapechangers and they are a lot cooler than stupid cat demons.