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By: wappla, wappla
Mar 31 2016 6:06am
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The worst part of Vintage is that people spend so much time and energy thinking and arguing about what the format should be and so little considering what it actually is. Discussions about what is healthy, what is broken, what should be restricted, what should be unrestricted are all boring and pointless, and I would love for them to just stop. 

But I get why people talk about it. The format is regulated by people who know nothing about it and never cite evidence for their decisions. For all we know, our sound and fury actually does affect the DCI’s process. By refusing to explain their decisions, the arbiters of the format encourage a belief that our arguments help determine its future. This is really quite awful. So, while I don’t partake in the discussions, I don’t blame those who do. For all we know, a well enough argued forum post could land Elspeth, Sun’s Champion on the restricted list. A pithy enough tweet about Lodestone Golem could send the card straight to the banned list, to begin its eternal sleep beside Shahrazad. Furthermore, if we agree that it is plausible that public discussion of restrictions influences DCI policy, then it becomes difficult to ignore arguments we find dangerously unsound.

Regardless, I prefer to be descriptive than prescriptive. I don’t really have a choice. It’s tough to entertain hypothetical formats when I still have so much to learn about the really-existing one.

That format, this past weekend, came full circle once again. Oath got good once more. It’s a thing that happens every so often.

A Workshop & Gush Format

The two best archetypes in the format are MUD and Gush. MUD has a fantastic mana base because of how much tempo it generates from Ancient Tomb and Mishra’s Workshop. Gush has a fantastic mana base because of how little space it takes up in the deck. Both decks operate comfortably with just two lands in play. Their highest casting cost cards— Monastery Mentor, Dack Fayden, Triskelion— require just three lands or two and a mox.

From below, Gush and Workshops are attacked by Dredge. Dredge can do little to break through. It can only thrive so much facing adequate hate. Only a few excellent necromancers are capable of pushing the archetype forward in the places it should stall out.

From above, Gush and Workshops are attacked by Oath. Oath is the good combo-control deck in the format. It has enough mana efficiency to beat Workshops and enough power and resiliency to rise above throngs of competent but only average Gush pilots. Oath generates a lot of virtual card advantage in sideboard games and makes better use of Jace, the Mind Sculptor, than any other deck in the format. Oath won the past two Vintage Championships, and at both events Workshops and Gush were the two best decks. This past weekend, Oath won the MTGO Power Nine event and, in the hands of Hall of Famer Shuhei Nakamura, the Asia Vintage Championship in Tokyo. It certainly seems like the metagame came round the track once again. Gush and Workshops both got good enough at the same time to make Oath good.

Gush has changed a lot in the past year. It traded Treasure Cruise for Monastery Mentor, then Dig Through Time for Jace, Vryn’s Prodigy. Player skill matters a lot more than most pilots of the archetype think, and Gush’s best players— the Ryan Eberharts, Matt Murrays, Marc Bertolins, and Joe Brennans of the world— consistently perform regardless of how good Gush is supposed to be on a given weekend.

Workshops morphed twice, as well. Martello Shops slowly grazed on more and more of the field until it was good enough that Pulverize, Dack Fayden, Arcbound Ravager and Hangarback Walker smashed through it at the Vintage Championship in August. The Chalice restriction sent the brown mages back to their workshops to rebuild. It took some time to figure it out. The pivot for the archetype was probably Brian Schlossberg’s third place finish at Pandemonium in Cambridge, Massachusetts, on November 14th.

Brian’s list from that day:

Ravager MUD

  • 2 Hangarback Walker
  • 4 Arcbound Ravager
  • 4 Lodestone Golem
  • 4 Phyrexian Revoker
  • 4 Triskelion
  • 1 Black Lotus
  • 1 Chalice of the Void
  • 1 Mana Crypt
  • 1 Mox Emerald
  • 1 Mox Jet
  • 1 Mox Pearl
  • 1 Mox Ruby
  • 1 Mox Sapphire
  • 1 Sol Ring
  • 1 Trinisphere
  • 3 Sphere of Resistance
  • 3 Sword of Fire and Ice
  • 4 Tangle Wire
  • 4 Thorn of Amethyst
  • 1 Strip Mine
  • 1 Tolarian Academy
  • 4 Ancient Tomb
  • 4 Mishra's Factory
  • 4 Mishra's Workshop
  • 4 Wasteland

Sideboard

  • 3 Karakas 
  • 4 Tormod's Crypt 
  • 3 Relic of Progenitus 
  • 2 Dismember 
  • 3 Crucible of Worlds

Notably, this placing was the first American, paper Top 8 for Ravager since Chalice’s restriction. This had been the best version of Workshops before the restriction, and Brian just replaced Chalices with more Swords and more creatures. Getting more aggressive maximized the deck’s other prison elements, and losing redundant Chalice’s only made it more consistently tempo positive in the midgame. The Ravager version of the deck took off once again. Today, the Swords have all become Jittes, because the deck is good enough for the mirror to be that important.

Oath's Edge

Oath took a while to find its place in a Gush and Shops metagame because Gush and Shops took a while to firmly establish themselves post-Chalice. Storm’s popularity, at least online, slowed Gush’s ascendancy while expediting MUD’s. But once Gush and Workshops become large enough portions of the metagame, they limited Oath’s bad matchups. When Oath wins these events, it never is popular. It’s never the best deck. Gush and Workshops are the best decks. It has a favorable match up against both, on the whole, less or more slightly favorable depending on how competent the Gush pilot is. When Gush is good, there tend to be a lot of Gush players who have no idea how to play against Oath.

Oath decks vary wildly in their role assignment. Some Oath decks are combo decks. They have Show and Tell and Time Vault, and they use Flusterstorm and Force of Will and Jace and Ancestral Recall to win with their combo. Against combo decks, Gush wants to play the control role. It wants to use a cheap threat to  apply pressure while it does so, but it has so many better cards than the combo deck that it’s fine going long.

But then some Oath decks are control decks. They use Oath of Druids to win game one against an unprepared opponent, then they amass card advantage against an opponent who actively wants to draw and spend mana on cards like Grafdigger’s Cage and Containment Priest while the Oath pilot is content to sit and activate Library of Alexandria and Sylvan Library. As a rule of thumb, you do not want to be drawing and casting Grafdigger’s Cages against an opponent with Sylvan Library. Some Oath decks play Moat and Auriok Salvagers and Dragonlord Dromoka. In these matchups, Gush needs to be the aggressor. You can’t go long against the control deck that will eventually just cast Dragonlord Dromoka.

The problem for many players is that it is very hard to tell what type of Oath pilot you are facing until it’s too late. It’s just that Who’s the Beatdown stuff. Misassignment of role = game loss. The only-adequate Gush players remain only adequate because they too often misassign their role in a game. Against Oath, this is easy to do. Sometimes Oath of Druids is a two mana Moat, and then sometimes it’s a two mana Juzam Djinn or Serra Angel. Sometimes it’s just a two mana Hymn to Tourach.

Oath of Druids generates, if it wants to, a lot of virtual card advantage in sideboard games. The difference between Oath, a combo-control deck, and Grixis, a combo-control deck, is that Gush is perfectly lined up to fight Grixis’ win conditions while Grixis’ win conditions do nothing to combat Gush’s. Gush has Misstep for Voltaic Key, Flusterstorm and Pyroblast for Tinker, Swords and Dack for Blightsteel, and an army of tokens for Jace. Gush has Gush and Grixis has Thirst for Knowledge. It’s just not even close.

Gush should still be favored against Oath. Gush has Gush. Gush has Preordain, an undercosted Demonic Tutor that pitches to Force of Will. Containment Priest is a fantastic card. Oath needs a whole lot of virtual card advantage to keep pace with Gush. When you sometimes draw Griselbrand or a second Oath or an empty Show and Tell or a blank Voltaic Key, the opponent’s draw engine could be Epiphany at the Drownyard and it might not matter. Still, there are a lot of mediocre Gush pilots out there. And still, you can’t Misstep or Flusterstorm or Pyroblast or Dack an Oath of Druids, and all those small creatures just trigger it. Oath isn’t favored against every Gush deck or every Gush pilot, but it is against most of them.

And, regarding Workshops, a two mana Serra Angel is close to good enough, and a two mana Griselbrand is more than good enough. Oath is favored against the two best decks in the format. When Gush and Workshops combine to make up half the field, now Oath is favored against at least half the field. Oath itself is never very popular, and that helps a lot with the archetype’s performance. They don’t lose to each other in the mirror, and there is little correlation between which Gush and Workshops decks go deep in a tournament and the soundness of their plan for that lone Oath deck that makes Top 8.

Altogether, we have a constellation where Oath matches up well against both of the two best decks and also preys on strategic misunderstandings of opponents. And in big tournaments, like MTGO monthly events or Vintage Championships, the expectation for increased amounts of Dredge leads players to trim on Containment Priest for faster hate like Tormod’s Crypt or Ravenous Trap or for harder hate like Leyline of the Void or Rest in Peace. When Workshops is really good and everyone knows it, Blue players trim on Disenchant and Wear//Tear for Ingot Chewer, Shattering Spree, Kataki, Energy Flux, and lands. Oath becomes a very powerful, unpopular, and well positioned deck. In the March MTGO event, its three pilots won 77.8% of their matches.

Contemporary Vintage has a cycle. When Workshops is only ok, decks that are bad against Workshops are good. When decks that are bad against Workshops are good, Workshops gets better fast. When Workshops is good, eventually Gush becomes good. Even if Gush isn’t favored against Workshops, it utterly destroys all the people who decide it’s a good idea to spend a quarter of their sideboard on lands. It just obliterates opponents who are preboarded for Workshops, as if Gush needed more virtual card advantage. When Workshops and Gush are both good, first Dredge becomes popular, and then finally Oath becomes good. And when Oath gets popular, it gets pretty mediocre fast. Beware the bandwagon Oath players. No one has fun in that mirror, and few pilots will stick with the archetype through its nadirs. Oath is powerful, and it has a lot of good cards. It also an extreme metagame deck.

Blue Control Also Rises

Oath is accompanied in its rise, as it was last year, by UR Control. As Gush and Workshops climbed in metagame share over the Spring and Summer of 2015, the UR The Answer deck arose to combat both of these best decks. With Blood Moon, plenty of Basic lands, Chalice, Trinket Mage, Engineered Explosives, and universal counters in place of conditional ones, the UR Control deck becomes good the same time that the Oath deck gets good. They both try to attack the Workshop-Gush metagame. 

UR Control has a huge problem in that it has to work very hard to compete with Gush and never really finds itself favored anyway. At least Oath has turn one Orchard Oath. Gush can play five spells in the first three turns, and the game has snowballed to a point where the permanent based control elements are irrelevant. UR Control tries to position itself outside of the brutal Misstep-Cantrip battles of the opening turns and maintain countermagic until it can start playing spells that impact the board turn after turn. It starts out draw go, but wants to transition to tap-out control as soon as possible. The problem is that by this point, turn three or four, it might already be behind on board, at which point it’s planeswalkers (other than Chandra) start looking a little anemic. When the Gush deck can answer Jaces and Dacks with its creatures and just sit on a copy of Force of Will, the game is over.

UR Control is an example of a less popular but well considered Blue Control deck. Bomberman is another good example. These decks are never great, just as Oath is never great, but they sometimes find themselves quite well positioned. Like all Control decks, they need to hit their targeted metagame. When Gush and Workshops are both very good, this becomes significantly easier to do.

Both Oath and Blue Control have much more powerful cards than the Gush decks, but good Gush pilots can so well leverage their opening turns that the few bombs the bigger decks see don’t end up mattering. However, when Gush is good, a lot of Gush pilots aren’t, and these bigger decks can eat their prey more often than not.

Well-made Blue Control and Oath decks do manage to overcome Gush’s early game advantage. Brian Kelly made sure his Oath deck didn’t fold to Containment Priest, and as often as he could, he just wiped out token infections with the very powerful antibiotic,  Dragonlord Dromoka. The best Blue Control decks have things like Chandra, Flamecaller. Basically, against Gush, you want pack 1, pick 1 Limited all-stars.

Velocity and Synergy

Overall, I believe the format has four and only four true archetypes. These are Gush, Workshops, Oath/Control, Dredge/Storm. Other decks are off-brand versions of these archetypes that are sometimes better because they are off-brand or hybridizations. Tezzerator, for example, is off-brand Storm, and sometimes that’s better than Storm. Grixis Control is an off-brand and not very good Oath/Blue Control deck. Gush Tendrils is a Storm-Gush hybrid, while Painter is a Gush-Oath hybrid. Space exists for decks to position themselves in between these archetypes.

Velocity and synergy define this space. Velocity is the rate at which a deck produces meaningful effects on a game of Magic, and this closely relates to the amount of cards its pilot sees over the course of a game. At its core, Velocity is the rate at which your cards change zones: library to hand, hand to stack, and from stack to play or graveyard. Dredge has extremely high velocity. It’s cards move from library to graveyard at a high rate, and then from graveyard to play. As far as velocity is concerned, Ponder counts for close to as much as Ancestral Recall. Ponder is just as good at finding Ancestral as Ancestral is at finding Ponder. It’s not about the magnitude of each effect, and it’s not about how fast a deck kills. It’s mostly about how good you are at seeing the cards in your deck.

The other axis is synergy. Again, the term has some unwanted connotations here. By synergy, I don’t mean how well your cards complement each other. It’s more a measure of how much better your effects are in multiples. For example, Preordain does have not much synergy with Ponder, although the cards work quite well together. Ponder does not become dramatically more powerful if I cast Preordain the next turn. Contrast this with Dark Ritual and Necropotence, or Cabal Therapy and Bridge From Below, or Thorn of Amethyst and Wasteland. Lock pieces in Workshops get much better the more of them that are on the table. Chalice at one gets much more powerful when Thorn cuts off two mana removal spells. Game-winning combos such as Time Vault and Voltaic are examples of high synergy cards that may be played in otherwise low synergy decks.

Likewise, some Gush decks use more synergy than others. Some Mentor decks are built to combo off. They might have Cabal Therapy and maindeck Hurkyl’s Recall and Cavern of Souls. Even in more conservative UWR builds, Mentor makes every spell in the deck more powerful. The deck is still relatively low synergy, however. While Mentor— the combo kill condition— might synergize with the other cards in the deck, those other cards do not synergize with each other. This differs dramatically from Workshops, where any two lock pieces improve each other quite a bit. Consider the chart of a few cards from each deck below.

The Gush Mentor deck is not devoid of synergy, but it has plenty of cards that don’t talk to each other directly. Strip and Gush actually have negative synergy. Jace and Mentor only speak to each other through Preordain and other spell translators. Workshops has many more of these synergistic relationships. Tangle Wire limits mana by tapping permanents, and Strip Mine removes one of those permanents, essentially ticking Tangle Wire up a fading counter. Each of these cards directly interacts with each other. Strip Mine is in both the Mentor deck and the Workshop deck, but it has a lot more synergy in the Workshop deck and is a lot more powerful there.

We can then look at combo-control decks and observe a small number of cards with a high, game-winning synergy and a large number of control cards with very low synergy. As an example, we can imagine a typical Grixis Control deck that has Time Vault and Voltaic Key but remains low synergy. The rest of the Grixis deck, excepting Tinker, is just good control cards. Compare this with a Tezzerator deck, which has the same winning combo but quite high amounts of synergy. Voltaic Key is much stronger in the Tezzerator deck. It turns on Mox Opals, it untaps Mana Vaults or even Seat of the Synods, it draws a card with Sensei’s Divining Top, it helps cast Thoughtcast.

In velocity vs synergy space, we draw a picture of the format that looks like this.

 

There are many decks existing in more specific spots, and overall amounts of velocity or synergy do not relate directly to archetype performance. It’s not necessarily better to have more velocity or more synergy or to have less. We do see that Dredge and Storm are the ultimate high velocity and high synergy decks, and that almost-Dredge (Hermit Druid combo, Worldgorger Dragon) and almost-Storm (Burning Oath, Belcher) are generally not quite as good.

At this moment of Oath being good, we are interested in this fourth quadrant: low synergy, low velocity. This sounds like it just leads to a bad deck, but it actually just means our deck has a lot of individually good cards and, at the cost of velocity, we have enough mana to cast them. This quadrant is where we find our varieties of Midrange.

Those who wax lyrical about Mana Drain and other inefficient blue spells would like Midrange decks to set the pace of the format instead of reacting to it. These Midrange decks have a lot of inertia and a lot of card advantage, and they reflect a belief that tempo is outclassed by card advantage. No other quadrant agrees with this belief. Even the Gush decks rely on tempo as much as they do on card advantage. Yet, when the 75% of the format fights a tempo game, sometimes removing oneself from that fight can be rather powerful. 

The tempo-based format is not entirely hostile to casting the best cards you can. Midrange is really good in Vintage when you can survive the first three turns. Chalice is restricted, and moxen get better with every set. A lot of Vintage players scoff at the idea of playing Chandra, Flamecaller or Dragonlord Dromoka in a format with turn one kills. Moxen might enable playing turn one Tinker or turn two Dark Petition, but they also sometimes let you cast your six mana card on turn three or four. Having two great six mana cards in your deck remains better than having one great three mana card Tinker and one awful twelve mana card Blightsteel Colossus. Vintage is the format of going Land Lotus Jace, the Mind Sculptor, on turn one. Why not Chandra on turn three?

Workshops forces the format to be extremely tempo-based, and Gush forces the format to be extremely card-conscious. The way that Oath and, to a lesser extent, Blue Control manage this tension is by playing a bunch good cards that affect the board. These decks play various forms of Moats, Jayemdae Tomes, and Serra Angels. The best decks get a lot of mileage out of any one of their permanents. Oath can be a Moat and a Serra Angel, and in sideboard games, it can generates a lot of virtual card advantage. Jace is the classic triple threat. Griselbrand is a Angel/Book. A chart can be found below.

 

Some of these are more conditional than others. As a rule, the cheaper the card, the more conditional its effect. Chandra is almost always a Moat, a Book, and an Angel. For two more mana, we get Wrath of God in place of Jace’s Unsummon. So, Chandra is less conditionally a Moat than Jace. Auriok Salvagers is a game winning Angel, but it’s conditional on having Black Lotus and something to do with infinite mana. Salvagers has a sizeable body, which provides defense against some, but not all, enemy creatures. Comparatively, for six mana, we can get ourselves a Dragonlord, which defends less conditionally and, with its Abolisher effect, generates free offensive countermagic. Then, at eight mana, we get the least conditional of all the finishers, Griselbrand.

Gush decks have similar cards, however. They have Jace, Vryn’s Prodigy, Young Pyromancer, Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, and Monastery Mentor. These cards can be Moats, Books, and Angels as well. They are much cheaper and much more conditional. They are all conditional on playing a bunch of cheap blue spells. In short, they depend on the deck whirring along at a respectable pace. Unsurprising, then, that these cards get worse against Workshops. Tax effects actually incentivize more expensive cards. Paying five mana for Jace, the Mind Sculptor is better than paying two mana for Preordain.

So What?

Of course, this is all good theory, but does it make us better players or better deckbuilders?

I think knowing what quadrant your deck is in helps you make conscious decisions about what types of cards to include. Oath, for example, can be built to have pretty high synergy or pretty low synergy. Show and Tell is a pivot card. Omniscience is a pivot card. We can look at the metagame, and figure out whether the deck really wants more synergy right now or wants less. 

The pivotal moment for Gush decks was when Mike Solymossy started cutting high synergy cards like Fastbond, Vampiric Tutor, and Yawgmoth’s Will for low synergy cards like Lightning Bolt and Preordain. This concept improving a deck by making it fairer remains the most important deckbuilding lesson of contemporary Vintage. Solymossy improved the archetype’s power level by removing restricted cards like Fastbond, Vampiric Tutor, and Yawgmoth’s Will, and replacing them with Lightning Bolt. The deck got better. That’s a really important concept. And this was before Young Pyromancer. He wasn’t incorporating new printings.

Brian Kelly ran Demonic Tutor and Yawgmoth’s Will in Dragonlord Salvager’s Oath all Spring and into the early summer. He went 5-3 at the NYSE III in June, respectable but not satisfactory. He then cut Yawgmoth’s Will and Demonic Tutor for two Dack Faydens. And the deck got better. And he won the Vintage Championship.

This does not mean it is always correct to find the fairest version of your deck. These archetypes were already in the low synergy quadrants, they just moved further left, to lower synergy. When Storm tries to add Force of Will or Mental Misstep to move to the left, to lower its synergy, it doesn’t get better. When Workshops adds maindeck Mindbreak Trap, it doesn’t get better. As a general rule, high synergy decks want to be high synergy decks and low synergy decks want to be low synergy decks.

On the contrary, Workshops got better when it stopped trying to use Forgemaster to toolbox an answer for everything and just started killing people with Arcbound Ravager and Hangarback Walker. Individually powerful cards like Steel Hellkite and Wurmcoil Engine got cut for more synergistic cards. A hyper-synergistic version of the deck exists in the Andy Probasco’s restoration of Adrian Becker’s Affinity Shops deck, now affectionately called Tiny Robots. 

Broken cards aren’t always better, but sometimes they are. It’s not trivial to figure when broken is better and when fair is better. It’s especially easy to try to make a deck more broken, sometimes the cost of replacing a Gitaxian Probe with Mystical Tutor in your Delver deck seems so trivial. Sometimes it’s hard to figure out how Gitaxian Probe could possibly be better than Mystical Tutor in the deck. Deckbuilding in Vintage is quite hard, and testing decisions is even harder. The nature of the format is high variance, and finding out that Mystical Tutor is much worse than Probe might take a while.  

Consequently, archetypes evolve slowly. The metagame is in constant flux, but it doesn’t actually move that quick. It’s more like a continent. Overall, many fewer games of Vintage are played than other formats, and it’s often difficult to discern what is actually happening in those games. Crucially, tournament results often do not reflect the actual truth of the format. So much experience, far more than I have, is required to understand what is actually going on. The effects of restrictions and unrestrictions play out over the course of years. We don’t know what the effect of last October’s DCI decision actually is. And, without knowing that, can you possibly justify another decision this April?

9 Comments

Thank you for writing this. by stsung at Wed, 03/30/2016 - 13:22
stsung's picture

Thank you for writing this. Even though I have very clear idea of what the Vintage format looks like and how it should look like I was not capable of voicing my thoughts well enough for others to understand. My own post actually made people write to me via instant messages and I can't seem to be able to explain myself. But after your introduction it seems I was trying to explain it wrong. People are blinded by what they think the format should be and can't look at how it looks like. Metagame changes because of what people play, that is how the cycle works. Now it is Oath time and Landstill time. People should adapt. With time it will move into another phase of Vintage metagame...You use velocity and synergy to show this but it can be shown in other ways as well. I was surprised that people do not see this... I thought that it is something that people see naturally.

Good article. Thanks for sharing.

I absolutely dislike oath by Joe Fiorini at Wed, 03/30/2016 - 14:43
Joe Fiorini's picture

I absolutely dislike oath mirrors and I'm only slightly prepared for them. That's actually more preparation than most lists though.

Even in times where oath is not great it still has a lot of nut draw and free wins. Its just easier to get orchard oath MOX than almost any other combo In Magic. The opposite can frequently happen as well, you get a great match up and draw an opening seven with three griselbrands or whatever. Having a deck that contains cards you'd rather not draw makes that unavoidable.

I liked how you spoke of different t types of oath builds. That is spot on. My decks tend to play like a fast combo deck. Other people go for a slower build. There's a lot of variation.

So much so that you repeated by Paul Leicht at Wed, 03/30/2016 - 16:51
Paul Leicht's picture

So much so that you repeated it :p I kid. But really this a pretty great exposition of how to think about Vintage when building. It doesn't do it for you but it does give some tools that seem pretty useful. Impressed as per usual.

I absolutely dislike oath by Joe Fiorini at Wed, 03/30/2016 - 14:33
Joe Fiorini's picture

I absolutely dislike oath mirrors and I'm only slightly prepared for them. That's actually more preparation than most lists though.

Nicely done article and by bschl at Wed, 03/30/2016 - 17:54
bschl's picture

Nicely done article and thanks for the shout out Wappla. My last name is spelled wrong though (Schlossberg). After "shops was dead", that ravager deck went on to take over @18% of the world meta in Q1 2016 according to Steve and Kevin's data.

Yes, apologies about that, by wappla at Wed, 03/30/2016 - 18:02
wappla's picture

Yes, apologies about that, Brian. I lose the ability to make edits after publication on here, but if an editor sees this and could change that I would appreciated it.

It seemed wrong to me as well, but it was what TCDecks (http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18901&iddeck=143426) had as the spelling and I couldn't refer to the tourney report on the old TMD to confirm.

I believe it has been updated by JXClaytor at Thu, 03/31/2016 - 06:06
JXClaytor's picture

I believe it has been updated to correct the spelling, sorry about that Brian!

thanks! by wappla at Thu, 03/31/2016 - 06:44
wappla's picture

thanks!

Thanks Wappla. are you on by bschl at Thu, 03/31/2016 - 17:38
bschl's picture

Thanks Wappla. are you on facebook?