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By: Raddman, Graig W
May 24 2010 1:48am
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"Moon arising" are part of the lyrics from this classic song.

Bad Moon Rising
Creedence Clearwater Revival
1969
(Music & Lyrics : J. C. Fogerty)

I see the bad moon arising.
I see trouble on the way.
I see earthquakes and lightnin'.
I see bad times today.

Don't go around tonight,
Well, it's bound to take your life,
There's a bad moon on the rise.

I hear hurricanes ablowing.
I know the end is coming soon.
I fear rivers over flowing.
I hear the voice of rage and ruin.

Don't go around tonight,
Well, it's bound to take your life,
There's a bad moon on the rise.
All right!

Hope you got your things together.
Hope you are quite prepared to die.
Looks like we're in for nasty weather.
One eye is taken for an eye.

Don't go around tonight,
Well, it's bound to take your life,
There's a bad moon on the rise.

Don't go around tonight,
Well, it's bound to take your life,
There's a bad moon on the rise.

 

Oh how I love some CCR.  So say this phrase 10 times quickly, "Moon a risin'"

After awhile it will start to sound like this............Noon a risin..............Noon harisin............New Horizon

See how easy it is to segue music lyrics into a Legacy Deck Name.

Ok, I've wasted enough of your time, onto the decklist to be evaluated.

 

New Horizons
Decklist from David Price via Deckcheck.net
Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Terravore
11 cards

Other Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
2 Engineered Explosives
26 cards
 
Lands
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
23 cards

Horizon Canopy

 

This list was piloted by David Price to a 1st place finish out of 106 participants at the March 13th Gigantic Legacy of 40 Duals & Fetches @ Jupiter Games!!. More recently, this exact list placed 2nd and 4th out of 104 participants in the same tournament by two different players, neither of which was Mr. Price.

 

This list placed 6th out of 268 participants

 

New Horizons
Decklist from David Price via Deckcheck.net
Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Terravore
14 cards

Other Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Misdirection
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
2 Engineered Explosives
21 cards
 
Lands
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
22 cards

Noble Hierarch

 

The deck itself is starting to gain a little bit of steam online as it placed in these tournaments:

 LEGACY DE #1175114 - Piloted to a 3-1 record by mylast, his version ran Nobles like the list directly above. This was a field of 21 players.

 LEGACY DE #1175110 - Piloted to a 3-1 record by Marc_1978, this one faired well in a field of 29 players.

 

The deck itself tends to play extremely similar to that of any Thresh list.  If you are not familiar with thresh, see below for a sample decklist.

 

Canadian Threshold
Decklist from eckology via DE #1175110
Creatures
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
8 cards

Other Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Fire/Ice
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
1 Rushing River
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
1 Wipe Away
34 cards
 
Lands
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
18 cards

Force of Will

 

 

In typical Thresh fashion this list just like New Horizons has one fairly simple goal.  It wants to get a creature on the board, protect it, clear its path and dispose of the opponent via a slow painful death of turn after turn attacking.  Thresh is just one of those decks that doesn't have a lot of bad matchups, but it doesn't have tons of great ones either.  Also, in my opinion, Thresh variants require a rather decent amount of skill because of the many different decisions one must make.  Not being a huge control player, I have always loved thresh type decks because they still let you play with powerful counters, but also give you the aggro position to provide the beat down when needed.  Because of my love for thresh, I was immediately drawn to the New Horizon decklist.  Some people refer to the list as Bant Control, but I think it deserves its own category as it runs two creatures that don't see tons of Legacy play.

So I decided once again to put my money where my mouth was.  I first had to purchase 4 Knight of the Reliquary as I had sold mine a long time ago (Stupid move as I think I sold them for 1 ticket each).  I also didn't own any Terravores, so I messaged a clanmate who was happy to lend them to me for the time being.  Here is the decklist I started testing with.

 

New Horizons
Decklist from ImpinAintEasy
Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore
11 cards

Other Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
26 cards
 
Lands
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 Tropical Island
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Flooded Strand
2 Tundra
23 cards

Knight of the Reliquary

 

 

The missing sideboard card here is Tabernacle of the Pendrell Vale, not sure why the Deck Editor doesn't like it.  So why did I choose this list over the one running Noble Hierarch?  The answer is simply because I didn't want to open myself up to more removal via burn spells such as Fire/Ice or Lightning Bolt.  I instead wanted to play a little more controlling by trying to position board control with stifles and wastelands.  Then, when my Knights or Terravores were big enough I would play them and Keep them protected via counters or clear the path with Engineered Explosives and Swords to Plowshares.  Pretty much, I wanted to play it like the Thresh build it is.

Here is a small sample size of the 2man test results:

W 2-1 vs. Goblins - Side in 3 Hydroblast, 1 Tabernacle, 3 Meddling Mage.  Side out 4 Stifle, 3 Daze.  Siding out all the stifles might have been a bad play here as stifle takes care of Goblin Ringleaders devastating ability.  But in the end it all worked out as Tarmo plus Terravore with Trample equals disaster.

W 2-0 vs. Reanimator - Here is the test matchup I wanted, the main reason I put Karakas in my deck to begin with.  Game one he puts out Turn 2 Iona, Shield of Emeria naming white.  I don't panic because I purposely held back Karakas hoping he would go for Iona via entomb.  My mischievous plan works, I play Karakas bouncing Iona next turn.  He manages to land Sphinx, which I quickly exile via Swords to Plowshares.  I side in 2 Faerie Macabre, 3 Meddling Mage and 3 Tormod's Crypt. Side Out 4 Stifle, 2 Engineered Explosives, 2 Swords to Plowshares ( I kept two just in case he tried Sphinx again, but more than likely he would be going for Inkwell Leviathan.

W 2-1 vs. Dredge - This can be a tough matchup for Thresh, but not nearly as tough as Merfolk or Landstill in my opinion.  In typical Dredge fashion, he wins game one, but only barely due to Terravore and Trample.  Game 2 I side in 2 Faerie Macabre, 3 Crypt, side out 4 Daze, 1 Knight.  I am starting to not like Daze in this deck, makes it hard to get out your creatures when you are putting lands back into your hand.  I win this game by shutting down his graveyard with crypt and faerie.  I used Tabernacle to get rid of his Tireless Tribe after I wasteland his only mana source.  Game 3 I side in 4x Daze, side out 4x Stifle (not sure what I was thinking during sideboard time, daydreaming is bad!).  I put a Turn 1 Engineered Explosives on the board for zero to keep his tokens at bay.  I find 2 swords to plowshares for his two tireless tribe guys, then attack his manabase via wasteland and ride Knight of Reliquary for the victory.

W 2-1 vs. Bant Control w/ CounterTop - I end up scooping in game one when he gets an active Countertop lock and keeps a recurring Rhox War Monk on top to keep my creatures off the board.  Normally, I would think we could get around Countertop because 7 or our 11 creature are 3 drops making it more difficult for them to control the board.  Game 2 I side in 3 Krosan Grip, 3 Meddling Mage, Side out 4 Stifle, 2 Ponder.  Game 2 was a back and forth battle.  He had double Noble Hierarch on the board and a Trygon Predator, so he was flying overhead for 4 damage every turn.  Finally, I dig for Swords to Plowshares and take care of his Predator and finishing him off with some massive Terravores and Knights.  Game 3 I went for a Turn 2 Meddling Mage with no counterback up naming Swords to Plowshares.  He lets it resolve.  Turn 3 I am thinking he doesn't have a counter so I cast Knight of the Reliquary and it resolves.  He has an active Tormod's Crypt on the board, but I'm not worried because I'm holding Krosan Grip.  He gets the active countertop lock going on his turn, but is all tapped out.  Next turn I cast the Grip on his Crypt, he reveals brainstorm and I ride Knight and Meddling to Victory.  Always sweet when I beat counterbalance decks, dang I hate the card!

L 1-2 vs. Dredge - Once again in typical fashion I lose game one fairly quickly.  Game 2 I am able to control his board with Tabernacle.  Game 3 I had the game won in my opinion, but made a completely absurd error.  Let me explain:  My opponent had given me some 3/3 tokens from his Dread Returned Terastodon.  I also had a Knight of the Reliquary on the board which I had just cast last turn.  The obvious play here is to use Knight's ability to find Tabernacle before his upkeep so he has to sacrifice all his creatures.  For some dumb reason, I decide to attack with all my tokens leaving me with no blockers.  I was at 3 life and Ichorid would have been the fatal damage next turn.  I had just played a great game against Countertop and then I go and do something so completely dumb.  Oh well, you live and you learn, but it is still frustrating to make such a pivotal error.

W 2-0 vs. Affinity - I was a little surprise at how easily I won this match.  I really only have Krosan Grips in the sideboard for this match, but they surely weren't put there with affinity in mind because the deck sees very little play anymore.  Stifle was the hero in game one when I chump blocked his dude and used stifle to keep his modular ability from occurring.  I saved my counters and Sword to Plowshares for his Ravagers.  He almost had game one in the bag, but decided to scoop after seeing the board position.  I made one error in this game by wastelanding his Land, which he turned into a flying 1/1 artifact causing me to promptly take 2 damage from his two Disciples. Game 2 I sided in 3 Grips, 3 Mages and 1 Tabernacle.  Sided out 4 Daze, 1 Stifle and 1 Misty Rainforest.  I think siding in tabernacle was silly as affinity can cast most spells without mana.

W 2-1 vs. Landstill - Game one my opp mulligans to 4 and keeps a no land hand.  Usually this spells disaster for most people.  I keep a hand with Double Force of Will, Daze, 2 Lands, Ponder, and Swords to Plowshares.  Not knowing what he was playing I figured this was a pretty sweet hand.  But, I can't find any creatures which would have easily won me the game.  Instead, he finds mana, gets out Pernicious Deed to clear my board and wins via Jace, The Mind Sculptor and Mishra's Factory.  I side in 3 Meddling Mage, 3 Grip, Side out 1 STP, 1 Daze, 2 Ponder, and 2 Engineered Explosives (I think).  Game 2 I hold back my land for stifle, he plays flooded strand.  I play another land, cast ponder and pass.  He tries to crack his Strand, I stifle, He casts Force of Will, I cast Daze (finally Daze makes me smile).  Next turn he doesn't play a land and passes.  I cast Meddling Mage naming Swords to Plowshares even though I'm holding two in my hand and a stifle.  Shortly after that he scoops.  Game 3 side in stifle, ponder, side out 2 Daze.  Game 3 was the longest game ever ( I almost wonder if he/she wasn't playing in another tournament).  This game was literally seconds away from me losing.  He timed out with next turn lethal on the board.  Actually come to think of it, I believe he was actually attacking for lethal when the timer expired.  But in my defense he/she had some sick topdecks in this game.  He caught 2 pernicious deeds to reset my board twice after I had dropped double Tarmogoyf and Terravore.  Oh well, I should of won that dredge match earlier, but should of lost this one. 

So there you have it, a small 2-man Test sample.  Final Results:  6-1 (13-6)  Tickets Spent: 14   Boosters Won: 6

Later that evening I decided to join the Daily Event with a very similar list.  The only difference was that I removed one Karakas and added one Tundra.  After talking with a clanmate, he thought 3 Karakas was overkill.  I knew I could find Karakas via Knight of Reliquary if needed in the Reanimator matchup.  I was a little leery of going down to just 1 Karakas because trying to get to 3 mana can be a tad slow vs. Reanimator.  Also Karakas is a decent option vs. Death and Taxes which currently runs the Legend Mangara of Corondor.

Here are the Daily Event Results:

Round 1 vs. Fiatlux Some type of Control build featuring ThoperFoundry, Elspeth and Jace, the Mind Sculptor if memory serves me correctly.

W 2-1 - Lost game 2 because of countertop with 3 drop constantly on top and elspeth.

Round 2 vs. Condescend - Reanimator W 2-1

Won game one with double knight, pumping them both up to 12/12s and punching through a 7/11 duder.  Lost game 2 when show and tell resolved (countered first one). Whew game 3 was a close one, I got out t2 meddling mage naming reanimate, got out t3 meddling mage naming exhume.  He goes mystical for show and tell, I have Force of Will, but no back up.  He casts, I play terravore off his show and tell and the race is on.  He attacks taking me down to 12, I attack with both mages and a 3/3 terravore taking him down to 9.  He attacks taking me down to 5, I attack taking him down to 2.  He attacks again, I stp my terravore giving me 8 life (was holding that since opening hand, kept two in for sphinx).  I attack next turn ftw.  Whew!

Round 3 vs. Gainsbanding Death and Taxes L 1-2

Opener 2x FOW, Tropical, Tundra, Horizon, STP, Knight.  He cast bodyguard, I STP.  I draw knight, pass, he plays canonist, I play knight and pass.  He tries to stps knight I cast Force of Will pitching Force of Will.  He plays wasteland targeting my tropical.  I end up winning via knights and terravore as his jitte on flicker was too late.  Server got really laggy, which caused me to miss 2 attack steps at really crucial times ( I filed for a refund, if I don't get it I won't be happy).  Even my opponent commented at how crucial missing the attack step was.  I swear I was even being careful because this has been a problem in the past.  At the most crucial time I had a 7/7 Terravore on the board and Meddling Mage naming Serra Avenger.  He had a Jitte equipped Flickerwisp on his side.  I don't know if I would have won, hard to tell.  I do know that not attacking with a 7/7 and putting pressure on your opponent would be extremely crucial.  Oh well, hopefully WOTC will do the right thing since it was their product with the flaw and not on my end.

Round 4 vs. Sickx7 Landstill L 1-2

Still fuming from last rounds lag issues, I manage to pull off game one.  Game 2 he beats me via deed and jace.  Game three I think I have it wrapped up and I'm 99.99% sure he topped Jace, bounced my meddling mage that had named innocent blood, then he cast blood and I had to sac my Tarmo.

 A little disappointing after starting the night 2-0, but it was another opportunity to play a game I love and learn from my game play.  Also having only been playing this list for two days, I was happy with my overall performance in both the tournament and 2-mans.  I plan on continuing with this list and possibly explore the option of removing Daze from the Maindeck.  I felt the card under performed and with no type of acceleration it probably hurt me in matches against decks such as Landstill.

I want to make one final comment.  The last few tournaments I've joined have struggled to get the necessary participants.  It worries me a little bit to think the love for the new online format has died down.  I am not sure the exact reason, but I think one of the biggest factors at least for me is the timing of the events.  I played Dream Halls in the Daily Event the other night and it started really late (9pm CST).  By the time the tournament is over it is after Midnight which makes getting up for work at 6am a little tough.  The Daily Event last night started at 10pm pushing me well past 1am.  I know it is hard to accommodate everyone, but what ever happened to tournaments at 7pm CST on Friday and Saturday nights.  These events were the perfect time for me and I hardly ever missed one.  Another observation is that it appears the Meta is shifting.  We are still seeing Death and Taxes, but now more and more control type builds seem to be appearing.

I will leave this last question for you to comment on.  Why do you think Legacy online is starting to see a decline?

 

As always, Thanks for reading!

Graig W.

-ImpinAintEasy on Mtgo-

10 Comments

New Horizon is a deck I by LOurs at Mon, 05/24/2010 - 10:18
LOurs's picture
4

New Horizon is a deck I praticed and I am still practicing a lot currently (I did around 40/50 matches with it, mostly vs tournament competitive decks&players). I started to share my experiences with the decks on CQ.com if you are interested in. There are some points I would like to add to your article because I realized recently that it is hard for some players to understand why this build is different than other without having tested it.

Firstly my feeling : this deck is very strong. Much more than I expected at the beginning in fact. If there is no 'auto-wins' match up, there isnt any 'auto loose' matchup also as you mentionned : the deck is extremly versatile and always proves consistency. Just try it.

Secondly, the deck it self. One of the biggest strengh of this deck is to provide a HUGE tempo control. Sure, thresh family is used to generate good decks built around tempo gains as everybody knows (especialy canadian thresh versions ...), but, really, new horizons creates a new level in tempo control. The natural tempo control suite (stifle/waste) found pretty good complements : canopy provides mana (W or G), draws and creature's upgrades (knight & terra like it). With canopy you could also combinate differents effects (ex : fetch canopy with knights then draw in example) for multiple tricks (to upgrade defense + to dig your deck).
The second major tempo gain is directly bound to creature choice : if tarmo is the "auto include in all aggro/control deck and in almost all UG decks", knights & terra are the real threats of this deck. Regarding win con, Terravore is by far the most important as its trample ability must be considered here as an evasive ability. In that, I not totaly agree with you when you say " It wants to get a creature on the board, protect it, clear its path and dispose of the opponent via a slow painful death of turn after turn attacking. "
In fact, one advantage of playing new horizon over thresh is that Terravore doesnt really need to get a cleared path. A turn 5-6 terravore is often a 8/8 trample creature for GG1. It is HUGE, especialy because you also warped the opponent tempo with mana denials & counters. The decks running a decent response to that kind of creatures are rare. When your best critter is a 5/6 tarmo or a 3/3 mongoose, you often need to clear the way (if you opponent cast a topdecked tarmo in example). With terravore you dont need. That is a sick tempo gain : your creatures are simply better & faster than any opponent threats at the same game step and need less turns to win (3 turns to kill is often the maximum with a 10/10 trample). And there are also knights (often 7/7 to 10/10 creatures)... Tarmo is here the tiniest creature, usualy the blocker. With 11 huge creatures and many deck diggers (brainstorm, ponder...) new horizon is able to provide a real "aggro wave" with 1 creatures (> 7/7) per turn once the tempo race won. This is why the way to play news horizon is different than thresh in my experience : thresh should try to control opponent during all the game, tempo tools helping there. New horizon extinguishes the opponent for 3/4 turns and then some fatties before he can fill its late... whatever if you can still control him or not at this time, 10/10 creatures just win the game.
Only my opinion, good article.

About the death of the format, I am one of thoses thinking that it will never happen. Maybe because I love this format so much that I dont believe it could happen (over optimistic maybe ?). That said, I strongly agree with your point about infernal schedules (especialy true for european players as I am) : this helps nor satisfies anybody ... except the non-eternal players. The buy-in is also to discuss btw.

I agree that Terravore is by Raddman at Mon, 05/24/2010 - 10:38
Raddman's picture

I agree that Terravore is very important, however I think Knight is the most important creature in the deck. The knights simply shut down opponents manabases, plus they easily can fetch the fetchlands and Canopys to make your Knights and Terravores bigger. Not to mention Tabernacle from the board or even Bojuka Bog if you are running it can be back breaking. While the deck doesn't completely play like Thresh, it does want to protect it's creatures because of the small amount they run. You are right in saying that Terravore runs over people, but still he is often times needing to attack at least a few times hence the simliarities to thresh. The difference between this and thresh is that in thresh playing a turn 1 nimble isn't a bad play. In this deck playing a turn 3 Knight or Terravore can be a bad play without the proper back up plan because the creature is easily targeted.

@ Stifle - stifle on your opps fetchlands is an important strategy but be careful and use it wisely. You don't run very many blue cards to support Force of Will. Often times an opp can recover from a stifled fetch. I think saving stifle for things like crypt and relic or Engineered Explosives might be a better play in games 2 and 3.

@ the format - I think with release events things slowed down, after the events I believe the format will start moving again.

Regarding the entire deck by LOurs at Mon, 05/24/2010 - 11:09
LOurs's picture

Regarding the entire deck synergy, I agree with you that knight are better. Regarding win con, I still believe that terra is more important. The fact is that often knight was too slow in my games. I often casted him more to attract StP than to really take advantage of its ability. If you manage to activate knight once, you gain a lot of all (tempo, creature power ...), but it is rare I could use it. The heavy number of fetch + horizon the deck is running AND the lands in opponent's graveyard were usualy enough to make of terravore a pretty dangerous creature. Plus, to attack with terra provide much more damage in average than with knights due to trample (either unblocked or bloked with additional damages to the defender). The correct play is almost all the time to play knight before terra, but in my games, terra was the most important vector of win. In example, if the defender has a vampire nighthawk in play, to attack with knights, even 12/12, doesnt do anything except killing his creature and mine. But to attack with the 10/10 terra in the same situation will kill his creature + provide 7 damages (and my creature as well).
That said, I think this deck cannot be as effective as it currently is without knights : reliquary provide synergy and consistency to the deck but also a decent second chance to win if you loosed the first turns tempo race.

Agree also about stifle : to well play stifle is a key skill to perform with that deck in tourney. Stifle enters in the mana denial strategy, but also insures to the deck a reasonnable resistance to graveyard hate and massive removal (and many unexpected difficulties).
It seems to be even more important in the round 2 & 3, once the SBing done.

Agreed that Knight should be by Raddman at Mon, 05/24/2010 - 12:08
Raddman's picture

Agreed that Knight should be cast first for two reasons.

1. He is always an immediate removal target from your opponent. He can take the STP while you cast Terravore next turn.
2. If he isn't removed he can position your board to control the environment either via wastelands or card advantage through canopy.

You are right that Terravore is your win condition usually as he has trample, but I still think Knight is more important. First of all if your opponent casts relic or crypt and you have no answer your Terravore DIES. Knight doesn't die, he becomes a 2/2 body that is capable of building himself back up. Your example about deathtouch makes sense except that creatures sees minimal play tbh. Plus why attack, just dig for STP and remove him. I guess if you are trying to get those last few points in than Terravore would be a better option.

You make great points, I just want everyone to not underestimate Knight in this deck.

I am one who thinks that the by JustSin at Mon, 05/24/2010 - 11:43
JustSin's picture

I am one who thinks that the format will be ok, but I do agree they've really set it up to fail. With the times these events happen, even if I finish spending the big money on a deck to join up I won't be able to make it 90% of the time.... those 9pm start times end up being midnight or so on the east coast and then I'm going to play a couple hours in a tourny? Yea I don't think so. These times are well and good for those on the west coast, but it sucks here and I can only imagine for the European players as well, very few people can stay up all night to play

good stuff, too bad you by JustSin at Mon, 05/24/2010 - 10:18
JustSin's picture
5

good stuff, too bad you missed out on including the more recent 4-0 DE

you mention not liking Daze, but are you offering another option? Or did you just decide it was the best option available?

Yea I wish I had not by Raddman at Mon, 05/24/2010 - 10:37
Raddman's picture

Yea I wish I had not submitted this article before going 4-0 in the Daily Event with New Horizons.

In that event I did remove the dazes and 1 land and replaced them with 3 spell pierce and 2 spell snare. Still not sure I like this option either, but I just didn't like the tempo loss from Daze. There have been times I've missed Daze though. You just have to play a little more conservatively I suppose.

My decklist for those interested:

Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
4 Horizon Canopy
3 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Karakas

Creatures (11)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Terravore

Spells (27)
2 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 STP
4 Ponder
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard (15)
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Meddling Mage
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Round 1 vs. - Death and Taxes W 2-1

Round 2 vs. - Merfolk W 2-0

Round 3 vs. - Rogue with Winter Orb/Propaganda/Jace Berlen W 2-1

Round 4 vs. - Astral Slide W 2-0

in my opinion, Daze should by LOurs at Mon, 05/24/2010 - 10:41
LOurs's picture

in my opinion, Daze should stay in the deck. Yes, it provides nothing vs Landstill or heavy mana decks, but it remains a solid counter in the 2/3 first turn. And these turns are the most important to New Horizon, this is when the opponent late is done. Daze drawback is tempo (to early bounce an island isnt a really good thing) but with stifle & waste, it works crazy well. A T1 island untapped into stifle opponent's fetch with daze backup is one of the best start this deck could provide. Either the cost to counter is heavy to the opponent (the only solution is often FoW = -1 free counter + - 1 blue card) or the tempo gain for you is huge. I cant remember how many time I blessed daze T1 when i countered vial, lackey, dark ritual, mox or top with daze using the mana left to brainstorm or even stifle a fetch...
That said, i agree a SB replacement vs Landstill is something to think about seriously.

I don't necessarily disagree, by Raddman at Mon, 05/24/2010 - 11:01
Raddman's picture

I don't necessarily disagree, but in a Landstill Meta (which appears where we are), I think the tempo loss with daze is to much. Our creature clock is T3 at best. If we daze we are looking at T4 which is the same casting cost as Jace. We need to be faster than them. They run enough lands that stifle on fetch isn't the correct play imo. Matter of fact you almost have to keep stifle back for deed as most lists run 2-3 main.

I do agree snare and pierce do nothing against goblins and with the diceroll nothing against merfolk. They simply become dead cards or fodder for FOW. Although snare does work against Weirding which can be crucial.

I'm still not sold on the snares or pierce and still not totally against daze. I think there are options worth exploring in those slots. I seem to always side in Meddling Mage, maybe it deserves a look in the maindeck, is also pitchable to FOW which shouldn't be underestimated. Isn't this why we love magic, we can change up things all the time and neither one of us can be right as both lists are proven to be effective.

To sum my opinion up, I would by LOurs at Mon, 05/24/2010 - 11:36
LOurs's picture

To sum my opinion up, I would say that Daze is sick when it allows you to do a 2 in 1, idealy something like stifle+daze.So its role is mostly limited to first turns. Early game, I much prefer to keep one island untapped to stifle with Daze/FoW backup than to use that untapped island to snare or pierce. The tempo loss due the bounced island is often less important than the board position increasement your counter provides on the game at this moment. The ability to get a Daze back up when you're casting you knight/terra T3 is a house, as it means a T4 attack vs a T5 attack if you want to wait for an untapped island to get a counter back up with pierce/snare. Older version of this deck ran d.mox : with that kind of mana artifact, I think pierce / snare would be really good; but without them, I think a "no mana" counter is pretty important.

But you are also correct, it is heavy depending of the meta. In a gob/merf/DnT meta I would prefer Daze without doubt. In a control and/or heavy discard meta, pierce & snare could be better. Daze & alternatives being almost similar regarding combo decks.