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By: one million words, Pete Jahn
Jun 26 2015 12:00pm
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 State of the Program for June 26th 2015

In the News:

Keyword Changes: As part of the roll-out for the Magic Origins set, Wizards has announced some changes to “evergreen” mechanics. Evergreen mechanics ae keyword mechanics which
 
Article on Development Updates: Sam Stoddard wrote an article about R&D (specifically D) and the latest changes to Magic. He discussed the change to the two block model, discussed complexity and Red’s part of the color pie. He also talked about Hexproof and reiterated that R&D is a bit nervous about the mechanic, but is taking pains to keep it in check. The article is here.
 
Modern Festival Preliminaries Have Begun: Details here. Good luck everyone (except those playing against me.)
 
Holiday Cube Updated: If you played Holiday Cube, you probably experienced the non-games resulting from Time Vault.   Time Vault has been cut – yay! – and other cards have been tweaked. Randy Buehler’s article on the changes is here. The new card list is here. The Cube will return July 8th.     
 
Bug Blog Update: Wizards updated the bug blog late last week. A couple of new items are worth noting. “In some situations, using Circle of Protection cards can crash Magic Online” – no data on what situations: Wizards might not know yet. More relevant to MM15 players, All Suns' Dawn causes a crash under certain [undescribed] circumstances. Finally, Restore Balance can cause a dimming and lock up, but F6 will fix it. In one we have known about for a while, sorting a deck by CMC does not work the first time, but clicking sort by CMC again works.   Another note – Eldrazi spawn tokens and convoke work the way they are supposed to – meaning you can either tap or sack for mana, not both.   And finally, the bug that shows your opponent’s clock running, but you actually have priority is still a thing. Take a screen shot, then log out and back in if your opponent appears to be sitting around doing nothing. (IMHO, having both this bug, long log in lags and multi-queueing all on MTGO is a horrible combination.) On finally sad note – the bug blog is currently over 3,200 words long. That is far longer than almost every Magic article on the mothership and longer than most articles on any site.   State of the Program itself is an exception, but SotP is super long because 1) I talk too much, and 2) lots of lists and 3) I just want to torture my editor. ;)
 
The Full Art Languish promo is sweet! In the paper world, the Game Day Top 8 promo card is a full art foil Languish. I really hope Wizards brings that card to MTGO, as some type of promo. The card looks great. 
 

The Timeline:

This is a list of things we have been promised, or just want to see coming back.   Another good source for dates and times is the MTGO calendar and the weekly blog, while the best source for known bugs is the Known Issues List. For quick reference, here are some major upcoming events.   
 
Item: date and notes
·         Phantom Mirrodin Block Drafts: June 24th – July 8th.
·         Holiday Cube Drafts: July 8th – July 22nd
·         Modern Masters 2015: EXTENDED! Continues through July 8th. Details here.
·         MOCS Season 7 Championship: 7am Pacific, July 4th. Format is Modern.
·         MOCS Season 8:  runs from June 24th through July 29th
·         MOCS Season 8 Championship: 7am Pacific, August 8th. Format is Magic Origins Sealed.
·         Dragons of Tarkir Standard Championship: Sunday, June 28th, 8am PDT 
·         Leagues (Q2 2015?) Wizards said leagues will return in 2015.
·         Modern Festival Prelims: Now – July 5th. Details here.
·         Modern Festival Finals: Sunday, July 5th
·         Magic Origins: released on MTGO July 27th, prerelease July 24th – 27th Code: ORI
·         From the Vault: Angels: October 12, 2015. Details here.
 

Opinion Section: Should Wizards Enable Ghosting?

I’m not trolling you all here. Well, not just trolling.   This is a serious issue.  
 
First, some definitions. Streaming means broadcasting your MTGO matches on the internet in real time, and interacting with your viewers. Ghosting means watching your opponent’s stream.   Ghosting is generally frowned upon. Why? Well, when a player streams her MTGO match, you see her screen, including her hand. You can also hear her comments on the match and lines of play. Many streamers, and their audiences, tend to feel that ghosting creates an unfair advantage for the ghosting opponent.
 
The paper world equivalent of ghosting would probably be getting up, walking around behind your opponent and looking at their cards. Doing something like that in Magic match would violate several rules – in short, you cannot do that. Paper Magic also prohibits the electronic equivalent of taking that walk. In the paper world, ghosting is illegal.
 
End of story? Not quite. 
 
Let’s talk about streaming for a minute. Typical streams, like those on Twitch.TV, don’t just show the player's screen and broadcast what he says, they also have a chat function. Viewers can – and do – make comments on plays and picks. The streamers react to those suggestions.  This interaction is one of the things that makes streaming interesting. In fact, popular streamers are very good at interacting with their viewers – they can keep one eye on the game and one on the chat. They are entertainers, and that entertainment is one reason that their streams are widely viewed, and therefore profitable.
 
On the other hand, when you play against someone who is streaming a match, you are not just playing against that person; you are also playing against everyone who is commenting on the match. Those commenters are discussing what you might have, and whether you are bluffing. 
 
To go back to the paper world parallel – in a sanctioned match, you cannot have a couple dozen friends standing behind you, looking at your hand, discussing the board state and giving you advice. This is called outside assistance, and having even one person doing it is illegal. The penalty for outside assistance at a competitive event is a match loss for a first offense, in addition to a stern lecture from the judge.  And for good reason: it is hard enough to play a win-and-in match at a PTQ or 5K as is. Having to play against a team consisting of your opponent and several of their friends, possibly including some random pros, is infinitely harder.  (Geeky judge disclaimer:  the above applies for competitive and professional rules enforcement level events using the MIPG.  Outside advice is still a no-no at regular REL events, but is handled per the JAR.) 
 
TL:DR - outside assistance is not allowed in paper Magic, but that sort of assistance is what streaming is all about.  
 
Now please don’t assume I am against streaming. I love streaming. I watch streams. If my Internet connection would support it, I would stream my matches. More importantly, streaming is really good for the Magic as a whole. Streaming gets more people interested and involved in the game. It teaches people to play, and play better. WotC has been working hard to promote streams and streamers by holding special streaming events, featuring the Super Leagues, having noted streamers do coverage and more. As they should. The feeds from the Modern Masters GPs pulled in over 1M viewers, which is amazing – and that is partly due to Wizards support for and promotion of streaming.
 
Streaming is awesome, and we need more of it. In fact, Wizards needs to make sure the client is as streaming-friendly as possible, and do even more to support streamers. But playing against someone who is streaming still feels like being ganged up on, which brings us to my suggestion: make it easier to ghost the stream. If my opponent is streaming their match, how about having a pop-up appear in the client saying “Your opponent is streaming this match. To view the stream, click here.” Your opponent gets the advantage of all that advice, and you get to see their hand. It all balances out. Sort of.
 
Of course, you don’t have to watch the stream, any more than you or your opponent are required to stream sanctioned matches.  The code of conduct neither requires nor prohibits either option. 
 
And for those of you who are thinking “that’s not Magic!” – true, but it is MTGO. MTGO is different.  MTGO has chess clocks;, Magic does not. Magic has unbounded loops that can generate 1 million ant tokens or 1.5 billion life; MTGO does not. You can play Frankenstein’s Monster in a Legacy GP, but not in a Legacy Daily online.  There is sanctioned real world Magic, and MTGO. The two are not the same.
 
So, should MTGO have an “opponent is streaming” pop-up, or should ghosting continue to be considered a violation of the don’t-be-a-jerk rule, and possibly banned?   Respond in the comments.     
 
Random MTGO Suggestion of the Week: 
Maybe an “opponent is streaming – you can watch here” button? Maybe not? Technologically, this could be tricky, especially if players stream on platforms other than Twitch.tv.
 
If you have recommendations for improvements or new features for MTGO, send them to magiconlinefeedback@wizards.com. Wizards does read them.     
 
Cutting Edge Tech:
Standard: GP Providence, held last weekend, was Standard. The Top 8 was a mix of Abzan Megamorph, Abzan Aggro, 5 Color Dragons, two RG Devotion, one RG Dragons, Bant Megamorph and 4 Color Whip. Coverage is here.
 
 
Modern: Grand Prix Copenhagen gave Modern players their fix this week. The Top 8 was Jund, Mono-White Death & Taxes, UW Merfolk, Scapeshift, Grixis Control, Mono-blue Merfolk, Grixis Twin and Grixis Delver. Coverage is here.
 
 
Pauper: I have not had a chance to play Pauper for a while, so I am just grabbing 4-0 decks I have not featured before. Well, at least not featured for a long time. Last week was a classic Ledgewalker deck – this week it is Affinity.
 
Affinity
Dejekt, 4-0, Pauper Daily #8396933 on 06/22/2015
Creatures
4 Atog
4 Carapace Forger
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
16 cards

Other Spells
4 Chromatic Star
2 Fling
4 Galvanic Blast
3 Ichor Wellspring
3 Perilous Research
3 Prophetic Prism
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Thoughtcast
27 cards
 
Lands
4 Ancient Den
1 Darksteel Citadel
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tree of Tales
17 cards

Carapace Forger
 
Legacy: This week’s feature deck is another classic: Miracles. It keeps doing well.
 
 
Vintage: I didn’t see much Vintage this week, but the Vintage Super League will return in the not too distant future.
 

Card Prices

Note: all my prices come from the fine folks at MTGOTraders.com. These are retail prices, and generally the price of the lowest priced, actively traded version. (Prices for some rare promo versions are not updated when not in stock, so I skip those.)   You can get these cards at MTGOTraders.com web store, or from their bots: MTGOTradersBot(#) (they have bots 1-10), CardCaddy and CardWareHouse, or sell cards to MTGOTradersBuyBot(#) (they have buybots 1-4). I have bought cards from MTGOTraders for over a decade now, and have never been overcharged or disappointed.
 
Standard staples: Standard prices were mixed this week.   I did remove a couple of cards that fell below $5 (or close thereto), including Courser of Kruphix and Brimaz.  I replaced them, at least for now, with CoCo, Ashiok and Sarkhan. We will see how long those remain on the list.
 

Standard & Block Cards
Price
Last Week
Change
% Change
(Ashiok, Nigthmare Weaver)
$6.08
$5.73
$0.35
6%
$5.96
$7.56
($1.60)
-21%
$20.85
$19.41
$1.44
7%
$8.69
$7.84
$0.85
11%
$19.45
$20.60
($1.15)
-6%
$16.39
$15.92
$0.47
3%
$8.78
$9.48
($0.70)
-7%
$8.26
$6.18
$2.08
34%
$19.10
$15.70
$3.40
22%
$8.99
$10.31
($1.32)
-13%
$9.68
$8.88
$0.80
9%
$11.94
$12.63
($0.69)
-5%
$10.35
$10.54
($0.19)
-2%
$6.11
$5.86
$0.25
4%
$9.24
$8.90
$0.34
4%
$9.57
$11.05
($1.48)
-13%
$9.87
$9.28
$0.59
6%
$8.78
$8.67
$0.11
1%
$6.34
$7.37
($1.03)
-14%

Modern staples:  Modern prices were rebounding this week, in both directions. I have not yet decided whether to cut some of the Modern Masters 2015 reprints – cards like Fulminator Mage and Cryptic Command – off the list.   I generally cut modern cards that are under $10, but MM15 is being drafted heavily right now, so prices should be close to a low. Since those lows are just under $10, they may rebound. We will see.
 

Modern Cards
Price
Last Week
Change
% Change
$28.21
$30.59
($2.38)
-8%
$25.97
$25.92
$0.05
0%
$39.85
$40.44
($0.59)
-1%
$42.07
$37.75
$4.32
11%
$24.29
$25.69
($1.40)
-5%
$18.04
$20.96
($2.92)
-14%
$8.04
$8.75
($0.71)
-8%
$9.72
$10.23
($0.51)
-5%
$9.18
$9.56
($0.38)
-4%
$49.87
$45.55
$4.32
9%
$36.48
$37.73
($1.25)
-3%
$27.14
$22.56
$4.58
20%
$13.31
$15.51
($2.20)
-14%
$103.25
$118.36
($15.11)
-13%
$24.07
$19.51
$4.56
23%
$8.75
$9.61
($0.86)
-9%
$28.18
$27.56
$0.62
2%
$24.33
$23.36
$0.97
4%
$40.75
$43.34
($2.59)
-6%
$20.61
$20.69
($0.08)
0%
$10.11
$10.19
($0.08)
-1%
$50.50
$53.73
($3.23)
-6%
$29.03
$28.32
$0.71
3%
$17.31
$18.94
($1.63)
-9%
$24.07
$27.02
($2.95)
-11%

Legacy / Vintage staples: This week, Legacy and Vintage staples moved around a bit, but not much. Only a few cards had changes of more than 1% or so.  Some of the power is slowly rebounding. 
  

Legacy / Vintage Cards
Price
Last Week
Change
% Change
$43.03
$37.59
$5.44
14%
$113.25
$111.38
$1.87
2%
$25.22
$25.19
$0.03
0%
$17.88
$17.75
$0.13
1%
$20.62
$20.74
($0.12)
-1%
$23.75
$23.86
($0.11)
0%
$37.55
$37.13
$0.42
1%
$27.18
$28.32
($1.14)
-4%
$23.71
$23.06
$0.65
3%
$28.77
$24.77
$4.00
16%
$15.75
$15.91
($0.16)
-1%
$110.64
$110.64
$0.00
0%
$28.10
$27.87
$0.23
1%
$59.42
$62.37
($2.95)
-5%
$154.81
$154.52
$0.29
0%
$55.80
$55.81
($0.01)
0%
$21.59
$21.42
$0.17
1%
$29.07
$28.54
$0.53
2%
$22.11
$21.99
$0.12
1%
$34.69
$31.24
$3.45
11%
$21.62
$21.05
$0.57
3%
$31.32
$32.31
($0.99)
-3%
$14.75
$15.07
($0.32)
-2%
$19.37
$19.09
$0.28
1%
$20.09
$20.09
$0.00
0%
$77.08
$76.83
$0.25
0%

Set Redemption: You can redeem complete sets on MTGO. You need to purchase a redemption voucher from the store for $25. During the next downtime, Wizards removes a complete set from your account, and sends you the same set in paper.   For those of you who redeem, here are the retail prices of one of everything set currently available in the store, excluding sets that are not currently draftable or not redeemable.   
 

Complete Set
Price
Last Week
Change
% Change
Born of the Gods
$31.51
$27.95
$3.56
13%
Dragons of Tarkir
$118.83
$115.99
$2.84
2%
Fate Reforged
$50.59
$50.30
$0.29
1%
Journey into Nyx
$78.73
$76.54
$2.19
3%
Khans of Tarkir
$81.00
$77.67
$3.33
4%
M15
$88.65
$84.52
$4.13
5%
Theros
$64.06
$61.75
$2.31
4%

The Good Stuff:

The following is a list of all the non-promo, non-foil cards on MTGO that retail for more than $25 per card.  These are the big ticket items in the world of MTGO. The list grew further, as more and more Modern staples that were not in MM2015 are climbing. The worst problem may be Liliana. I saw at least one pro tweeting that he could not find any, at any price. A very quick check found the same – all my usual sources are sold out. That’s not a good sign with Modern season fast approaching.
 

Name
Set
Rarity
Price
Rishadan Port
 MM
Rare
$ 154.81
Black Lotus
 VMA
Bonus
$ 113.25
Misdirection
 MM
Rare
$ 111.65
Liliana of the Veil
 ISD
Mythic Rare
$ 103.25
Wasteland
 TE
Uncommon
$ 79.66
Wasteland
 TPR
Rare
$ 77.08
Tarmogoyf
 FUT
Rare
$ 63.79
Mox Sapphire
 VMA
Bonus
$ 59.42
Tangle Wire
 NE
Rare
$ 56.38
Show and Tell
 UZ
Rare
$ 55.80
Tarmogoyf
 MMA
Mythic Rare
$ 52.39
Tarmogoyf
 MM2
Mythic Rare
$ 50.50
Griselbrand
 AVR
Mythic Rare
$ 49.87
Blood Moon
 MMA
Rare
$ 43.32
Ancestral Recall
 VMA
Bonus
$ 43.03
Blood Moon
 8ED
Rare
$ 42.84
Blood Moon
 9ED
Rare
$ 42.07
Force of Will
 MED
Rare
$ 41.23
Scalding Tarn
 ZEN
Rare
$ 40.75
Batterskull
 NPH
Mythic Rare
$ 39.85
Doomsday
 WL
Rare
$ 37.55
Grove of the Burnwillows
 FUT
Rare
$ 36.48
Time Walk
 VMA
Bonus
$ 34.69
Mox Ruby
 VMA
Bonus
$ 34.60
Horizon Canopy
 FUT
Rare
$ 34.52
True-Name Nemesis
 C13
Rare
$ 31.32
Oblivion Stone
 MRD
Rare
$ 30.56
Twilight Mire
 EVE
Rare
$ 29.30
Stifle
 SCG
Rare
$ 29.07
Infernal Tutor
 DIS
Rare
$ 28.77
Azusa& Lost but Seeking
 CHK
Rare
$ 28.21
Oblivion Stone
 CMD
Rare
$ 28.18
Mox Jet
 VMA
Bonus
$ 28.10
Force of Will
 VMA
Rare
$ 27.50
Inkmoth Nexus
 MBS
Rare
$ 27.14
Auriok Champion
 5DN
Rare
$ 25.97
Containment Priest
 C14
Rare
$ 25.22

The big number is the retail price of a playset (4 copies) of every card available on MTGO. Assuming you bought the least expensive version available, the cost of owning a playset of every card on MTGO you can own is $ 24,975.  Modern is continuing to drive prices – we are up $350 from where we were last week. 
 

Weekly Highlights:

I have been playing more Modern Masters 2015.  Still far from boring, but I am noticing the cost more and more.  So far, I have opened literally nothing I need or can sell for more than a couple TIX.  I have managed to win 2 packs from nearly every 6-2-2-2 I have entered, but that is still slow bleed territory.  At 25 TIX per draft, that's a lot of bleeding. 
 
Another highlight:  the semi-finals of the Standard Super League were this week.  Once again, they featured some really good matches.  The previous week's finals match was still slightly better (and probably one of the five best matches I have seen in 15+ years of watching Magic), but this week's entire semi-finals round was almost as good.  You can watch videos here.  Scroll down.
 
PRJ
 
“One Million Words” and “3MWords” on MTGO
 
 
This series is an ongoing tribute to Erik “Hamtastic” Friborg.
 
HammyBot Still Running: HammyBot was set up to sell off Erik Friborg’s collection, with all proceeds going to his wife and son. So far, HammyBot has raised over $8,000, but there are a lot of cards left in the collection. Those cards are being sold at 10% below retail price. Erik died five years ago, so HammyBot does not include any standard legal cards, but it includes a ton of Masters Edition and Vintage cards, and some nice Modern bargains. 
 

 

20 Comments

Not the same by Sensei at Fri, 06/26/2015 - 12:17
Sensei's picture

Most viewer comments are bad advice especially for the stronger streamers. Even when there is a good play, the distraction (not to mention the hardware slowdown) of having to constantly read the chat overcomes any marginal advantage.

Ghosting can't be stopped because streamers choose to share their streams but it should certainly not be encouraged.

I don't think it should be by TugaChampion at Fri, 06/26/2015 - 15:58
TugaChampion's picture

I don't think it should be encouraged but there shouldn't be anything about it in the rules (as well as anything like outside assistance). There is no way to prevent things like this online, so it's better to take them out of the rules.

I know most viewer comments are bad and even when it's good advice it's often lost in the middle of the bad or only seen after the play is made. But it's still a possibility. There's also something that is a clear advantage like some videos for channelfireball where there are at least 2 pros thinking about the plays. If they did this and published a video that is proof of outside assistance and everything was fine, those rules should simply be removed (just to make myself clear, I don't think there should be any penalty for those players).

We have to face the fact that stuff like this can't be stopped. Those streaming know the risks. At least for the bigger streamers, with all the donations and sponsors, the matches they may lose because of ghosting are just a drop in the ocean. If you stream, you just have to accept the risk.

We still shouldn't encourage stuff like this but I also don't think the majority of players ghost.

There are also many more things we can do while playing MTGO that we can't do IRL. I can search my opp's name to check what decks he has played in the past. That can help a lot especially mulligan decisions but also on how much damage you take from your lands and playing around specific cards. MTGO and real life Magic are very different and we need to adapt to those differences.

I always mean to check up on by Joe Fiorini at Fri, 06/26/2015 - 16:44
Joe Fiorini's picture

I always mean to check up on my opponent's name, but I forget it every time.

I also have played against someone who I knew was a streamer, and I considered ghosting (although I didn't know that there was an official term for it). I decided not to watch the persons stream, because I'm against cheating. And even if it isn't technically cheating, it sure feels like it to me. I just can't do it. I'm no angel, but cheating in any way has always been something that I couldn't bring myself to do. Even if I had a 1900 rating, a million qp's, and qualified for the pro tour, if I cheated even once to get there it wouldn't mean anything to me. I have always been honest in Magic, even when I knew I wouldn't get caught.

I think it's great that people love streaming, and that WotC seems to be all about supporting it. I feel like a dinosaur sometimes, with my text-based articles and zero videos/streaming. Unless I'm able to get a computer that will handle streaming, that's the way things will stay unfortunately.

I also beat a really good player in a Daily who was likely streaming the match (although I didn't know who he was, or that he streamed at the time). I'd really like to find the video of that and see how well I really played. Perhaps he just drew terribly, I don't know.

That's just my two cents. I won't cheat, but others just don't care about it (especially if they can't get in trouble). So if you're going to stream, you have to expect that some opponents are going to see your hand.

I'm not saying it is good but by TugaChampion at Fri, 06/26/2015 - 19:53
TugaChampion's picture

I'm not saying it is good but if ghosting is cheating, so is playing together with someone else. If that type of stuff can't really be avoided online, the best thing to do is removing those restrictions.

What if someone playing LSV loses a very close game. A week later that person goes to channelfireball and watches the video of that match. During that match LSV is just about to make a play but someone else tells him to do something else and he wins because of that. The player might feel cheated as this would clearly be cheating irl.

The best way to avoid things like this is to not consider this cheating because there is no way to control it and many people will do it. Considering it cheating only stops streaming or fun videos from being made.

And if this is not considered cheating, ghosting should also not be considered cheating. It should not be encouraged but it's no different than having a friend help you.

And actually, ghosting can be avoided, especially for important events with blocked hands or delay or even not streaming. I can't stop anyone from playing with 1 or 2 friends helping them.

Perhaps I should have been by Joe Fiorini at Fri, 06/26/2015 - 20:24
Joe Fiorini's picture

Perhaps I should have been more clear. I was just saying that I won't do it. I don't really blame anyone, but I'd feel bad if I did it is all. But when you broadcast your game to anyone who wants to watch, aren't you kind of inviting that sort of thing?

You're right in that the idea of playing against a hive mind instead of a single opponent is an unfair advantage as well.

I didn't mean to imply that by TugaChampion at Fri, 06/26/2015 - 20:45
TugaChampion's picture

I didn't mean to imply that you were saying it was cheating. I was just stating my opinion on this matter and responded to you because I think it makes more sense than creating a new comment.

How important is it to raise by Hearts at Fri, 06/26/2015 - 15:48
Hearts's picture

How important is it to raise this discussion in the first place ?
And how important is it to get public statements from wotc on this area, streaming/ghosting/assisting ?
Is the absence of comments from wotc a harm for mtg/mtgo ?

@Ben Williams by Rerepete at Fri, 06/26/2015 - 20:39
Rerepete's picture

From what I've seen Year End for WotC is Mar. 31 making Q2 ending Sept. 30.

"Ghosting only levels the by MarcosPMA at Sat, 06/27/2015 - 05:40
MarcosPMA's picture

"Ghosting only levels the playing field" - Michael Jacob. I always found him saying that funny because he'll get ghosted and still beat whoever he's playing. Ghosting only helps if you can use that information correctly.

While funny because sometimes by TugaChampion at Sat, 06/27/2015 - 06:59
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While funny because sometimes he'll beat someone who is ghosting him, coming from him shows his usual level of arrogance. Now he rarely streams, but I've seen him stream a PTQ somewhat recently and he actually put 10 minutes delay there to prevent ghosting, so when it matter, he does care about it.

Ghosting might do nothing but those were the games you'd never win, but it can also be devastating, especially in older formats or when you're playing something like Twin.

One thing is at least for by Hearts at Sat, 06/27/2015 - 06:57
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One thing is at least for sure; that outside assistance in no way should be illegal in online magic.

If nothing else than under by AJ_Impy at Sat, 06/27/2015 - 09:42
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If nothing else than under the principle that unenforceable laws weaken the statute book.

The first thing that came to by dagerritsma at Sat, 06/27/2015 - 16:53
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The first thing that came to my mind when you described the paper magic equivalent of ghosting was that there is different way of looking at it. A person streaming is the one actively broadcasting the information. The paper magic equivalent is a person choosing to play with their hand revealed as well as thinking out loud about possible plays, spell sequences, combat math, etc. I suppose this analogy breaks down because the ghost is stuck at the table but not required to call up the stream.

We can take the same approach to this that you did regarding outside assistance "...is what streaming is all about." Streaming is about putting yourself on display to the public, which includes the opponent. It's like the scouting article that went up on cfb recently which is paper magics parallel of looking up user names to aid mulligan decisions.

At the end of the day I see no reason why streamers should be shielded from possible disadvantages but allowed the advantages even if they are tenuous because I don't really view ghosting as a form of cheating. To me the idea that hands are private information is gone once you freely choose to reveal it to anyone and everyone that might be interested in knowing it.

I agree with you. I think the by TugaChampion at Sat, 06/27/2015 - 18:50
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I agree with you. I think the correct official position should be staying neutral. Everyone should be free to do it but it shouldn't be encouraged or made easier by saying when your opp is streaming. Just like searching for your opp's past decks, it should be something that you get rewarded for actually taking the time to look it up.

Ghosting by Jyalt at Sun, 06/28/2015 - 17:37
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My position is that ghosting gives the player receiving additional information from the crowd an advantage, and their opponent gains no advantages.

Any good player has the experience to recognize and ignore bad advice and pay attention to good advice.

Is it an unfair advantage? Have you ever played against THAT GUY and his three friends all at once at FNM? I have, and I haven't enjoyed the experience, especially when one of the friends decides to stop the game for a strategy pow-wow.

So I am of the opinion ghosting should be banned, unless you offer a tournament where everyone is ghosting, or as part of the tournament description, ghosting is explicitly allowed. When two teams of people play against each other, its fine. One vs. many is not.

The only way I'd be OK with ghosting is if you get a notification your opponent is doing so, which also automatically reveals their hand. Then information asymmetry would no longer be an issue. The extra advantage of advice would be mitigated by the advantage the non-ghosting player(s) would receive from keeping their hands hidden while knowing the hands of their opponents.

I seriously don't understand by TugaChampion at Sun, 06/28/2015 - 20:06
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I seriously don't understand many parts of your text. You say "ghosting should be banned" but on the other hand you say "One vs. many is not." and streaming players are the ones playing with many vs one.

I can answer some parts of it: there will never be a tournament where everyone is ghosting. That is not how Magic works and there's no way they'll ever make something like that. And there's also no way to ever know if anyone is ghosting. Even if they created their own streaming site (not worth it) and people had to connect the streaming with their mtgo account (they would lose many viewers who don't have mtgo), people could always be watching with another account.

And you simply can't ban something you can't control in the least.

If you replace ghosting with by Cauchy at Mon, 06/29/2015 - 03:55
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If you replace ghosting with streaming then the text makes sense.

Oh it does now. It's not in by TugaChampion at Mon, 06/29/2015 - 06:49
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Oh it does now. It's not in their interested to stop streaming as it promotes de game freely. To be honest, I think people streaming are actually putting themselves at a disadvantage (even without ghosting). Sure, sometimes there is good advice in the middle of crappy advice and some ammount of times, the streamers catch it. But deviding your attention between the game and the chat, makes you more distracted and it's easier to mess up or misclick.

That doesn't change the fact that they are still getting outside assistance and for some plays they can actually stop for a bit and ask the chat.

The difference between streaming and ghosting is that streaming helps Wizards with free publicity and ghosting can cause streamers to be unhappy or quit, it can stop some people from becoming streamers and it can also affect viewers.

For any big streamer it's very easy to come out ahead. Even if they fail every event they play, the donations and sponsors more than make up for it, so even losing several matches to ghosting doesn't stop streaming from being great for them.

I like the idea that if you by Rerepete at Mon, 06/29/2015 - 11:00
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I like the idea that if you are streaming, the client automatically reveals your hand to your opponent.

It would immediately inform that person that their opponent "may" be getting extra opinions, and be a subtle "penalty" for that extra help.

The logic is sound since, by streaming, you are freely offering this information to everyone.

spooky by PanteraCanes at Tue, 06/30/2015 - 10:14
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I view it more so as the person across from you lays their hand on the table so everyone can see. Then if you even look at the cards they put face up on the table you are going to get yelled at and called a cheater.

I am not sure if the client should be alerting you they are streaming. Also I know that the advice is not always good advice. Though I have seen plenty of times where they get good advice on something they didn't see or think about. The thing I would like to see stopped is the bullying by the streamers of people who might be watching them. These streamers are trying to get some kind of fame and also many are getting money from sponsors, adds, donations, subscribers, free streamer only events, free cards, and so on. I have seen Worth give free cards to streamers he likes.

I enjoy watching streams. The only valid argument I have heard is that if they get enough people "ghosting" they will not stream anymore. Though this can be overcome with delays and hiding their hands which I have seen both happen. So its only slightly valid.