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By: ShardFenix, Thomas Rayne
Jul 01 2010 2:09am
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Tribal Apocalypse

 

Stealing From Sheldon

 

Welcome everyone to another week of Tribal Apocalypse on PureMTGO.com.  Once again I am writing in between Religious Studies papers and Spanish assignments, but I am slightly looking forward to this article.  We had a decent sized group this week and ended up with 5 decks to look at, my "return" to actually winning at least one match, and the good old drama that always comes along with Tribal Apocalypse.  So since this may get lengthy let's get started with those decklists.

 

2-1 Decks

 

Good old fashioned White Weenie.  Fliebana showed up this week with a good strong creature base backed by plenty of removal.  I like the Day of Judgments just in case things go to hell for him early on, though I am wondering about the Emeria, the Sky Ruin...I know it's a good card I own some myself, but it seems like even if you hit the requisite numbers of plains the creatures aren't strong enough to face down some late game threats.  Maybe a Cloudgoat Ranger would be an awesome Emeria target.

Yes, yes that is the Rat King from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles...pretty sweet if you ask me.  Well I'll be honest.  I have posted this deck before.  It's still a great deck.  I just don't have that much to say about it.  I mean its a great rat deck.  It has great removal.  OK, yeah its tough to continually talk about a deck unless I happen to play it that week.  Sorry James, you're a great player I'm just out of words. 

Beastly Beasts from Beastville
ShardFenix
Creatures
4 Cerodon Yearling
4 Woolly Thoctar
4 Cliffrunner Behemoth
4 Spellbreaker Behemoth
3 Meglonoth
3 Realm Razer
22 cards

Other Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Rampant Growth
3 Krosan Grip
14 cards
Lands
4 Jungle Shrine
3 Terramorphic Expanse
5 Plains
5 Mountain
7 Forest
24 cards
 
Cliffrunner Behemoth

Finally!  After roughly 3 weeks of going 0-2, I finally find something that got me some wins.  I tried to go with a slight curve starting with the smallest beasts I could find Cerodon Yearling and Woolly Thoctar.  Then I had always wanted to try out Cliffrunner Behemoth so with my first two creatures perfectly meeting it's "bonuses" I picked up a playset and went with it.  Spellbreaker Behemoth was better than expected when I went up against a mono-blue Merfolk deck one round and he was a nice bit of inevitability since bounce can only do so much.  Also Krosan Grip was included as an anti-enchantment/artifact (lets be honest anti-Moat) card.  Of course I saw nothing all event that required it's use which disappointed since I removed (Beastmaster's Ascension) for it.

3-0 Decks

This deck is pretty sweet.  And I think Endless will do a better job explaining the bits and pieces better than I will.  I build this deck to try and show a new style of play for tribal.  The deck has 3 real win conditions
1:  Garruk fueled overrun with lots of little elves, which can
actually work well being able to get garruk out on turn 3 usually.
2:  Natural order dropping progenitus onto the table and just
attacking for the win.  I also included terastodon to be able to
remove moats if any were played
3:  The very slow and grueling lockdown with winter orb, propaganda
and tabernacle effects.  Gaea's cradle allows me to pay my costs with
1 land and every creature i played from druids could pay his own
tabernacle costs.  Mana short worked as a wrath of god effect with
tabernacle on the board.

And from replays and what I heard he won every way possible throughout the event.

Well it's a vampire deck.  Kind of.  For everything I saw and heard I don't know if it ever once won with vampires.  Its pretty much this combo: www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/19413_Legacys_Allure_Introducing_Shelldock_Doomsday.html with vampires shoved around it to be tribal legal. A.K.A you can basically win on turn 2 with your free Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.  No one agreed with this approach last week and the player certainly didn't help his case when he said "Everyone think's I am an asshole, so I might as well build a deck to live up to it."  This player's solution was banning combo pieces.  No one supported that.  Everyone was basically like you knew better, no one enjoys playing against those, don't be a DB.  Personally I have my own ideas as to situations like this.  Luckily EDH Rules Committee member and founder, Sheldon Menery, has the general opinion a I do. 

"Am I saying that it’s "right?*" No, I’m simply saying that it is, and it’s a sometimes somewhat unclear, unwritten code of behavior. The main point is that social contracts exist as part of the way human beings exist in societies. And "EDH players(Tribal Apocalypse)" is a society. If you’d like to be part of that society, great. If not, that’s okay too. No one is trying to force you to play a particular way, but they might be asking that don’t play a particular way as well.

I kind of liken ‘social’ versus ‘competitive’ EDH/Tribal to baseball with wooden versus aluminum bats. Sure aluminum bats are better. They help you hit the ball harder and farther, but purists think that wood is the way the game is intended to be played, so that’s what they’ll use. Aluminum bat guy has competitive advantage over wood bat guy. "I came to win" guy plays with aluminum. "I came to play baseball" guy goes with wood. It’s perfectly reasonable for the "I came to play baseball" guys to say "you’re welcome to play with us, but you have to use a wooden bat."

That may trigger the thought "well, you should just ban all the cards you hate," but that’s a path to failure (see the history of 5-color). For most of the cards that remain unbanned, there are colorful and interesting uses as well as powerful strategic ones. Some cards that can be used in mean-spirited ways also provide defense from some strategies getting out of hand. While Magister Sphinx might be nasty, it’s pretty good at keeping crazy life gain guy in check. Judicious application of such things is the secret to the balance."

Basically change all instances of EDH to Tribal.  And with the main prize being 3 tickets in this event it is certainly a social tournament and not a competitive one.  So yes, Thank you Mr. Menery for posting this on SCG the other day.  It does express my thoughts to a T.  So what about people who still insist on bringing decks that go against the grain?  There is no correct way to play Tribal. There is, however, a vision for how I would like to see Tribal Apocalypse played, and the majority of players seem to be with me.  It's not a cutthroat win-at-all-costs event.  Some people enjoy playing in a tournament where the main point is not the win but rather the overall since of fun that can come from the event.  I really hope you like it. If not, that’s fine, because there are a number of other great Magic formats for you to enjoy instead and we can still stay friends.

162 Comments

Flip I think what the real by Ranth at Thu, 07/01/2010 - 18:26
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Flip I think what the real problem is that the group wants to play by a shifting set of rules and honestly thats why it doesnt work.
I say this to every host that's asked me whats the best thing they can do for a tournement and my answer has always been the same.

"Keep the rules and how u handle things uniform and fair and the rest will follow."

"Keep the rules and how u by Flippers_Giraffe at Thu, 07/01/2010 - 18:28
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"Keep the rules and how u handle things uniform and fair and the rest will follow."

I agree 100%

unfortunately that is exactly by Ranth at Thu, 07/01/2010 - 18:30
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unfortunately that is exactly what the problem is right now :(

Ok I'm not really concerned by ShardFenix at Thu, 07/01/2010 - 18:46
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Ok I'm not really concerned with posting this information because I have roughly 8 email addresses. So if one gets flooded its no big deal. Anyone with any opinions on what to ban/unban, what cards need to looked at either post a list here or Email a list to me @ TribalApocalypse@yahoo.com

Fair enough and will do most by Ranth at Thu, 07/01/2010 - 19:08
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Fair enough and will do most likely tomarrow after work since im going too be getting dinner then going to work soon here.

However that being said and not lookin at the current banned list here's a few off the top of my head and why.

Doomsday- The card its self should explain enough that its built to be abused.

Natural order - lets be honest the only decks this has seen play has been fast mana creatures along with everyone's favorite mythic hydra...then again maybe it's the hydra that should be banned?

Helm of obedince- Now this card in a vaccum is fine and actually would be alot of fun but has never seen play outside of mono black helm/line decks. Leyline isnt the culprit here as it's an answer to some decks rather then just a problem its self. Helm cant say that thus why it should be the banned card.

Bazaar of bagdad- I think this cards currectly banned and with good reason the only deck it's seen play has been dredge.

Goblin recruiter- The problem child in goblins isnt lackey nearly as much as its recruiter who sets up the deck for insane broken things to happen.

Mystical Tutor.- i could go over all the reasons to ban the card but in short it's one of the most abusive enablers in any format.

Iona,-Lets be honest the only decks she sees play is reanimator and well really more need said on the general unfun factor she brings?

Emrakul- another let'd be honest with ourselves the only time this guy is played is when people cheat him in. Eldrazi dont lose much as a tribe by losing him they still have the other two Legendary tribe members that are devistating.

Im sure there's more but thats just what i was able to think of off the top of my head.

To my mind Dual Lands could by Paul Leicht at Thu, 07/01/2010 - 19:52
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To my mind Dual Lands could also be considered combo enablers since they make the mana so easily. Aether Vial is certainly a hose. You could probably make a list of a hundred cards that break classic that don't belong in Tribal. I don't think that would solve the problem. Those with access to the more expensive cards and a will to win will do so no matter what you ban.

For the record AJ ran a deck with Eldrazi tribal the first week they came out and did not "cheat" Emrakul out once. He paid the 15 mana fairly every game and still managed to get it out on turn 4-5 consistently. So perhaps banning Urza Tron and Cloudpost/Vesuva is key too.

Depends on your definition of by AJ_Impy at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 04:48
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Depends on your definition of 'cheat': The deck used Fist of Suns and Crystal Quarry on an 8-post/Urzatron mana base backed up by Expedition Map as its main means of dropping T4 Emrakul, and subsequent Eldrazi. 5 mana filtered through a land and a 3-mana artifact in order to get the hardcast effect.

When it comes to bannings, I by AJ_Impy at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 05:23
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When it comes to bannings, I advocate a light touch. A long ban list kills formats, as Prismatic learned to its cost. I much prefer to go by the mindset adopted by Legacy players outside of the big money tournaments: Don't bring the nukes to a knife fight. 3 tickets isn't big money, and the prize has been deliberately kept small to keep the worst excesses out. Perhaps there's room for a splinter tournament, an 'anything goes' break-the-format-wide-open abusefest? It'd probably never fire, but its existence would provide an alternative.

I concur on Doomsday and Mystical Tutor.

Natural Order... Hm. Possibly. The hydra it brings is not unbeatable, but the precedent is a concern. Do we ban Wargate, Tooth and Nail, Chord of Calling and all the other 'search your decks for a fatty and put it on the battlefield' cards? I'd put it on the watch list.

Helm of obedience: This is one of quite a few 'mill your whole library' options like Painter's Servant-Grindstone or Traumatize-Haunting Echoes. Again, an exercise in line drawing.

Bazaar - already banned.

Goblin Recruiter - A fair point, but this can be used to reck your opponent if you then take out his mana base. Should we put Dwarven Recruiter on notice as well? I'd say Goblin Ringleader was the more egregious, Goblin Chariot plus ancestral recall all too often. Most people avoid running goblins, so we tend not to see the worst excesses.

Iona: I suggest taking a look at last weeks' article, in which I ran two in a deck which could only get her on to the field of play at 8 or 9 mana. (The deck ran a brace of Emeria, so 7 plains and that if someone forced me to discard provides the alternative.) So no, she doesn't just see play in reanimator.

Emrakul... A hardcast Emrakul is practically unstoppable in a way that the other E-legends can't match.

How about instead of banning cards, we ban conduct? 'If you win by means of a combo irrelevant to your tribe, your opponent earns a win.'.

In one fell swoop we get rid of the undesirable behaviour altogether by turning combo from an automatic win to an automatic loss.

Yeah I am not in favor of any by Paul Leicht at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 05:54
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Yeah I am not in favor of any banning of cards. Behavior might make more sense but that does take some creativity out of the game as I think finding unusual combos and using them with odd tribes can be great fun.

Tooth and nail yeah not sure by Ranth at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 09:13
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Tooth and nail yeah not sure how that one slippped my mind too many ways to have this single card just flat end games when its cast entwined and any deck that's played it has built the deck with exactly that in mind. Now is it fast enough or not to be concidered overly abusive is a subject for debate. (i think earliest it could come out entwined is t4?)

I once again restate that Iona as printed was never designed as a "casual" card or for fun, but purely for combo based decks or to be cheated into play to lock down an opponent and flat win by denying them the ability to more or less play the game.

(Also no need to argue what decks a given card have or have not been in. It's rather pointless when the intent of playing the given card is pretty clear)

Banning on cunduct hits way too close to grey area and only creates he said she said situtations and also continues the player A is allowed to do this or that but player B is not.

Regardless of the reasoning why. It only creates non uniform field of play. (just to use my deck listed here as an example swap around some lands in the deck and change my tribe to eldrazi and it becomes legal under this suggestion but the deck could play over nearly the same and people would still feel the same over the loss even though i would have then used my tribe as the win condition)

To be honest, I'd have been by AJ_Impy at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 14:35
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To be honest, I'd have been less irked if you had used Eldrazi.

To be precise, the reasons by AJ_Impy at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 04:37
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To be precise, the reasons can be found here: http://puremtgo.com/articles/art-tribal-wars-rogue-play

One-half of the debate Lord Erman and I had on if the format should be sanctioned or not.

As an aside, those advocating a massive banned list should remember what happened to Prismatic.

A new way of thinking by themonkey at Thu, 07/01/2010 - 20:33
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How about a change to the Tribal Apocalypse format? Instead of playing matches, just play individual games. That way every player will play (almost) every other player. If you face a turn 2 combo deck the game will be over quickly and you don't have to worry about playing it again. Plus that way you're deck is exposed to the widest variety of decks to play against. Instead of plying 2-3 matches against 2-3 decks, you will play 6-12 games against all different decks. Some match-ups will go well, some won't. Sometimes the shuffler will go against you, sometimes for you. But the best decks should still rise to the top with enough games.

I don't play in this by inneutral at Thu, 07/01/2010 - 21:43
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I don't play in this tournament, and probably never will, so feel free to ignore this if it isn't viable or has already been ruled out:

Why not simply allow sideboards to deal at least a bit with all of these combos and then just play the games in Classic? In the hopefully rare event that someone would like to challenge opponent's tribal legality, they can request that after the game their opponent draw her entire deck and then reveal her hand (or screenshot and email to tournament director). Alternatively you could rely entirely on in-game enforcement: A suspicious player could just board in a card that lets him search his opponent's deck (e.g., Sadistic Sacrament) and have some sort of long term ban for players found to be in violation.

The idea of a one game round robin format would also work. Just concede if you don't like your opponent's combo. Also, I am not sure if this is logical but a combo deck that "fizzles" 25% of the time will win 75% of its GAMES but will win 84.4% of its MATCHES, so broken decks might be less likely to win the tournament.

Ban dual lands? Are you on by endless at Thu, 07/01/2010 - 23:07
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Ban dual lands? Are you on LSD? I've never heard of dual lands as combo enablers before, that just reeks of sour grapes.

Don't worry dual lands arent by ShardFenix at Thu, 07/01/2010 - 23:26
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Don't worry dual lands arent going anywhere...ever.

Yeah I agree dual lands by Flippers_Giraffe at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 03:33
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Yeah I agree dual lands should never be banned, that's going way over the top.

Legacy is the Key by Flippers_Giraffe at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 03:31
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I think we should follow in addition to the current in game list for tribal we should follow the Legacy banned list and also that of Extended (current and past) which looks something like this. Please ignore any duplicates from the in game list I'm at work so cant view it at present. Note this list also includes cards that are not online yet but could be in ME4.

Ancestral Recall
Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Lotus
Black Vise
Demonic Consultation
Demonic Tutor
Earthcraft
Fastbond
Flash
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Gush
Hermit Druid
Imperial Seal
Land Tax
Library of Alexandria
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain - This card dosent really need to be banned for tribal
Mana Vault
Memory Jar
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Mishra's Workshop
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Mystical Tutor - Note this is the best combo card in tribal if you think about it from a spell point of view
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Skullclamp
Sol Ring
Strip Mine
Time Spiral
Time Vault
Time Walk
Timetwister
Timmerian Fiends
Tolarian Academy
Vampiric Tutor
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon
Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will

Hypergenesis
Sword of the Meek
Aether Vial
Sensei's Divining Top

Dark Depths
Survival of the Fittest
Lions Eye Diamond
Goblin Lacky
Natural Order
Grindstone
Helm of Obediance

Enlightened Tutor - I think this should be on the list as well as its very powerful in the tribal format.

Good idea for a place start by Ranth at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 08:34
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Good idea for a place start (even if i dont agree doing EVERY card ever banned but i can say i see the logic behind the idea) and Trust me when i say no one is trying to make tribal go the route of Prismatic.

However while I was at work I got to thinking what we REALLY need to do before we get overly serious about a banned list is define what it is that we want the format to be like and work a set of clear rules around that as if we were creating a brand new format.

This way we can avoid problems of legality and players being harrased for playing legitimate decks.

Legacy... by Scartore at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 09:01
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Switching to Legacy would be a start. That is also something we could lobby wizards for. Actually, if I could ask wizards for anything, it would be to be able to customize games more. I should be able to ask for tribal extended, or a block singleton, or whatever.

BTW, I don't hold it against anyone, but I consider the Dual Lands broken. I wouldn't advocate banning them, but in my world mana fixing comes with drawbacks dammit... ;)

I like most of that list. I by endless at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 08:57
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I like most of that list. I also agree that mana drain shouldn't be there. I also don't believe gush is broken in tribal without combo being large.

Mana Drain should be banned by Scartore at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 09:02
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Mana Drain should be banned because it's a stupid card, plain and simple.

Yes I dont think Gush should by Flippers_Giraffe at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 09:16
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Yes I dont think Gush should be on the list either in tribal, its a good card to run with Landfall creatures.

i think all of these could by Ranth at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 09:26
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i think all of these could safely be removed from that list

Frantic Search
Gush
LandTax
Black Vise
Mind Twist
Mana Drain
Wheel of Fortune
Yawg's will
Sword of the meek (ban thopter foundry instead)
Sensei's Divining Top

Yes i realize some of these have powerful effects, However In a tribal setting most of these wont or maybe in some cases even can't cause havoc beyond their oringinal design intent.

I agree on all those apart by Flippers_Giraffe at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 09:49
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I agree on all those apart from

Yawgmoth's Will - I think this card could be broken in a lot of ways letting you replay spells.

Sensei's Divining Top - I think this card really slows down the game and lets you choose to not draw you tribal creatures each turn. You could say Jace, the mind Scuplter should be banned for the same reason and I think it should be. We dont get many complaints about this card as most of the players in the event wouldn't look to buy a playset for casual play.

I agree with Top being by endless at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 13:18
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I agree with Top being banned, it doesn't really serve any great tribal purpose.

Yawgmoth's will is already banned within the mtgo client, so whatever our opinion is doesn't really matter. That said, I would say unban it. It's true power relies on combo type decks, and without combo enablers it's no longer an overpowered card.

I fail to see any problem with mana drain, infact i see it as a creature enabler. It allows you to play creatures that might not fit your decks curve. It won't cheat a progenitus into play, but it could help you get some of your 6cc guys down a turn or two earlier.

Without mana burn it is a by Paul Leicht at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 13:26
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Without mana burn it is a super effective counter though. Until Fow it was the highest priced counter in the game (a play set was like $200 back in the 90s) The reason for that is, it is broken even with mana burn in the game so without it it is just as you say an enabler. I can see mana draining something like a 6cmc and casting a 12 cmc eldrazi on the next turn. Potentially game wrecking. But you are right its not technically broken since it generally doesn't win by itself.

ok so I started to read the by JustSin at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 15:46
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ok so I started to read the comments, but found I currently don't have the attention span to do so for all, but I would like to add I spent some time with endless play testing against that deck and bouncing ideas (though that was pre-Order) the deck was brutal then and I'm guessin made much worse by the addition of Order

as far as the two top decks being combo based I'd of a mind where I had no problem losing to endless' deck (though again pre-order if I lost to order progen on top of the sick orb lock I'd be frustrated lol), but I would have had issue with Ranth (boy deja vu eh?)... doomsday shelldock into eldrazi? no thanks

Just to catch you up at this by Ranth at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 15:59
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Just to catch you up at this point we're trying to talkin about what changes could be made to make this a fair and format for everyone rather then a unclear and unfun format full of double standards.

thanks.. these 12 hour work by JustSin at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 16:13
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thanks.. these 12 hour work days are killer on the attention span lol

lol no worries i understand i by Ranth at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 16:29
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lol no worries i understand i work 9 hours myself 11pm-8am

I didnt play these event at by LOurs at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 16:39
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I didnt play these event at the moment, but I practiced a bit in the casual room but I'll submit my opinion anyway.
The eternal formats, and especialy non-singleton classic based format are favorable to combo by themself : you could ban any cards you want, combo will ever be around. And let's be realistic, there is no way to deal with combo without a consistent build AND a consistent sideboard. Being an eternal format hardplayer, I am used to deal with combo, but without the sb, I couldnt. It would be a coin flip format.
The fact is that Classic tribal is enjoyable while it remains a CASUAL format. It doesnt mean the decks should be grizzly bear vs grizzly bear : the incredible number of available cards allows to have a lot of fun, much more than if the format was smaller like extend/overextend or anything else. But it implies that players use their common sense when they are building to keep the spirit of casual. If not, there always will be a player to come with an insane combo, putting all the other players into an auto'loss.
Let's be honest, it is not difficult for any player to know when his deck is a combo deck or if it is not. What's the aim to play a T3 combo or even a T5 combo in that format ? Proudness to win a tournament vs casual deck who doesnt have any chance to deal with them ? Probably, and it's a shame. If combo player or ultra-spikes guys wanted to show us their talent in combo, then they will join real combo format as classic or even legacy constructed events are... and not to come in a tribal contest with an unfun, unfair and easy decks only to show they could win with it. Without being a genius, the result is expectable and easy to guess when you come with a sneakdrazi, NO/prog, spanish inquisition type deck or whatever : they win the contest and they kill the format. That's the hard reality.
COMMON SENSE is the basis of this format, but yeah, the definition is probably different for everybody ... with good intention,z it will be easy to correct it ... anyway i hope that for all enthusiast of this format.

Lours the idea here isnt to by Ranth at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 17:02
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Lours the idea here isnt to kill ALL combos just the most abusive early turn ones and also with the addition of sideboards i really think that things will improve greatly.

There really is no good reason that this format cant be both casual based and competetive. Same was said about pauper at one point or even classic but both of thoes formats ended up getting a large enough group of players and designed their format well enough that wizards took notice the of the sheer number of people enjoying the format.

Right now as is the format's broken and easy to abuse. Its easy to say that all day untill your face is blue, but it takes more balls to actually try to mold something you love into a final product that anyone can enjoy with very little to no interpetation required.

"There really is no good by LOurs at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 19:25
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"There really is no good reason that this format cant be both casual based and competetive"

yes and no. It is not only a question of casual or comptetitive format, but a question of the health of that format.

As far as I know, it doesnt exist 1 deck able to answer to every kind of deck (aggro/control/combo) only with its maindeck. The 15 sb cards allows to adapt your deck to every kind of deck : it doesnt mean you would win, but it mean that you would resist better and in most case really compete with every kind of decks.

In example, in Legacy, to deal with a dredge archetype is so difficult that almost 80% of the current build (and probably more)are simply autoloosing round 1 to dredge/icho.dec ... but thank to the sb, you can efficiently compete and beat it. What would be the situation with no sideboard available ? That would be either a coin flip game (you hope to not encounter this deck or simply you loose to it if your face it) or a bipolar meta (you play dredge or anti-dredge and no other deck). Dredge is a fine deck, and I have nothing against it, but that's a fact.

And currently, tribal has no sb. It is neither good nor bad, it is fact but it has consequences as well on the game : if you allow to play every kind of deck competitively, then you must be ready to generate autoloose or autowin frequently and, imho, that would be at the opposite of the definition of a healthy format. To play tribal in a really competitive view, either to allow sb is necessary or to restrict several kind of deck is necessary. It is especialy true with combo : if we except really bad combo (5/6 cards needed to go off in example), combo will ever generate autowin & autoloose if there is no sb available. You could try to annihilate the fastest combo deck, but another will arrive on play and it will go on and on and on ...

Another point is that tribal classic is an eternal format and the possibilities to break the limit are so huge that I bet you will never find a perfect B&R list with no sb available.

That was my point. So to sum up : while there wouldnt be sb in tribal classic, to restrict some kind of deck is necessary to keep a competitive and healthy format. These restriction bould be written (good luck!) or induced by the common sense of the player.

PS : I hope to be clear, but my written english remains limited ^^

Lours...common sense should by ShardFenix at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 17:21
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Lours...common sense should be the best and simplest answer, but I have come to have a rather low opinion of the majority of MTGO players after hanging out in the cas/cas room for years. No one really cares about anything other than their own win/loss record so expecting to adhere to anything is like hoping money rains down on me when i go to lunch. Sadly without an word for word specified list people feign ignorance and laugh from behind their computer screens.

And this isn't just mtgo dont be offended, I have rather low opinions of humanity IRL and MTGO

Even if i would mostly agree by LOurs at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 19:28
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Even if i would mostly agree with you, I dont want to resign and still believe that common sense in a nice community is possible. I still hope anyway ;)

Common Courtesy is more to by Paul Leicht at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 21:39
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Common Courtesy is more to the point. I don't think magic players in general lack common sense (it is a useful magic tool after all) but they do lack courtesy. Even the basics of "Hi How are you?" (conversational English 101) are beyond many if not most. So expecting all these alpha male personalities to take it easy on the softies is hoping for more consideration than is available. As you said...might as well hope someone drops money on you.

I actually enjoy the fact by Cruel_Hellraiser at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 17:19
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I actually enjoy the fact that there is no sideboards

Keep in mind everyone no one by Ranth at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 17:56
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Keep in mind everyone no one is expecting this to be an overnight fix but with an honest effort by everyone involved in the format and thoes how would like to be but are not at this point for what ever their reasons we can make this format enjoyable to jump into even for a new player.

To Recap so far if im not mistaken these are prety much univerally agreed upon right now.

-Keep the format as 1/3rd creatures required at all times

-Use the Legacy filter
This serves two perpouses a) it adds some abuseive cards to the banned list
and b) it gives us sideboards

-Continue to use the Tribal wars current banned list in addition to the legacy list

Now for the subject of banned list to be added that it will be touchy subject as it always is for any format however can we safely say that to start with our target cards are early game winning combos and cards that just flat create an unfun enviroment?

Examples at this point have been mentioned in the above comments.

Im confidant that over time if we continue to work on the format we'll be able to work out the kinks as we see them untill we've accomplished something as great as both pauper and classic have become.

I dont think anyone every by ShardFenix at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 18:03
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I dont think anyone every agreed on the legacy thing...quit trying to take this over. Im not willing to deal with the issues between sideboarding and everything else. Sideboarding will be nearly impossible to enforce people staying at 1/3 creatures. Its not worth the extra footwork to try to constantly police that.

The suggestion was to follow the legacy banned list. Not play in legacy.

Though to be quite honest I enjoy AJ's approach of banning people. But thats just me.

Ye of little faith. You're by Ranth at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 18:34
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Ye of little faith. You're right it might be near impossible to enforce that but same goes with minor deck changes between matches in any player run event.

That just more or less goes without saying. What does need to be said is that do you want the format to grow and become something that everyone can enjoy or keep the same stagnant pool of 8-10 players while u do little to nothing to promote or help the format other then Blast players publicly, make an article to get paid for blasting player publicly and allow such blantantly horrid behavior from the players as well.

Yeah shard the Last time you advertised this tourney in a place with all the rules posted was may 22nd in this thread:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75846/24591457/Tribal_Apocal...

So your right asking anything more is too much since you seem to be unwilling to do even what should be the minimum required of any tourney host.

So wanting to ban me because what? I play within the rules as printed? Or that because i actually tell people to pike off when they start blasting me or others about their deck choices?

Or that i'm vocal about the more then obvious double standard being put into play at almost every tribal event run?

You know i've already had several players say that they love tribal as a format and that it's the hostile environment that you and your players have breed that has kept them away?

That if these changes happened that they'd be willing to come back and try ?

We all have lives and whatnot but if you want this format to be more then a joke someone's going to have to put some effort into it. To me it's just sounding more an more like you want to get easy money for playing with friends.

Now please prove me wrong and actually listen to what the community wants because this isn't about you,me,my decks, Or as you say me trying to take over. This is about what is best for the format and how do we get there. So lets quit trying to live in utopia or beliving that if we close our eyes that the big bad monster will go away and actually work on it and listen to what our community has to say.

I have been looking for a by Killer Owen at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 18:17
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I have been looking for a Tribal event for some time. I definitely think a weekly post letting players know when, where, and whats banned will help a lot. I had to do some digging just to find a post about this event. I used to play in Tribal events all the time, and the biggest thing was combo decks. Sure a deck would be allowed to play a few weeks, but if the deck became a constant winner because the combo was too consistent bans were put in place. It's not weather or not the list should fallow Legacy or whatever, but that the broken combos are taken out without banning cards that don't need to be banned.

So we are basically now at a by ShardFenix at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 19:37
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So we are basically now at a crossroads...

Option 1

Playing the games in Legacy format. Which will allow sideboards but no reliable way to police it. Plus a handful of additional banned cards.

Option 2

Coming up with an updated banned list and continue playing in the Classic Tribal format where any departure from the banned list results in a DQ

Option 2 is the best way to by Flippers_Giraffe at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 19:46
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Option 2 is the best way to go to start with and see how it plays out. BYOS has a long banned list and there have not been any issues in that event.

But...

The event needs to be advertised on a weekly basis like the other player run events with people posting their deck lists to encourage other players and ideas. These can still be used as a basis for the weekly PureMTGO article.

There is a group already setup but it needs to be activate with updates on what’s going on this in turn with the above suggestion will work together. This can also be where you keep your banned list for all to see.

Tribal can be a great player run event that works in the same way as BYOS and Pauper it just needs a lot of work but this can be done a step at a time. No one is expecting a miracle and there are lots of people who have posted in this thread who I expect would be willing to help keep the event alive.

OK well out side of the by ShardFenix at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 19:53
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OK well out side of the normal tribal banned list we have the following cards which may need banning

Goblin Lackey-currently banned
Earthcraft-currently banned
Bazaar of Baghdad- currently banned
Survival of the Fittest- currently banned
Lion's Eye Diamond- currently banned
Natural Order
Progenitus
Iona, Angel of Emeria
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Doomsday
Mystical Tutor
Enlightened Tutor
Grindstone
Helm of Obedience
Goblin Recruiter
Sensei's Divining Top- not sure why this was included but I'll put it up for discussion

Now Discuss

I believe you need to ban by Flippers_Giraffe at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 20:07
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I believe you need to ban these as well

Hypergenesis - combo only card
Thopter Foundry - part of a broken combo
Aether Vial - This should have been banned along time ago if you ever want a chance vs tier 1 goblins or merfolk
Dark Depths - Only used in a combo

The current extra banned cards can stay banned

Natural Order - ban broken with Hydra
Progenitus - Stay as its a creature and is not broken without Order
Iona, Angel of Emeria - Is not nearly as broken if you ban Mystical Tutor for the animation spell.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - Keep an eye on
Doomsday - dont ban the card ban the tutor
Mystical Tutor - Banning this solves so many issues as it counts as another four of a sorcecry or instant of your choice which is why its banned in Legacy
Enlightened Tutor - Same as above but but for artifacts and enchantments this format is about creatures.
Grindstone - ban only a combo card
Helm of Obedience - ban only a combo card
Goblin Recruiter - ban due to how devastating it is.
Sensei's Divining Top - ban as per my comments elsewhere

I'd say that tooth an nail, by Ranth at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 20:07
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I'd say that tooth an nail, and forbidden orchard are missing from the list. Oath on its own is actually very symmetrical and somewhat fair even if extremely powerful it's Orchard that pushes it over the top and into unfair here in tribal.

Top really has no need of a ban unless we were also going to ban mirri's guile and slyvan library because we'd believe that the ability is too powerful.

I'm not too worried if by Flippers_Giraffe at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 20:10
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I'm not too worried if Sensei's Divining Top is banned or not as Ranth makes a good point its already present in other cards, Jace included.

also wondering current by Ranth at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 20:19
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also wondering current thoughts on show and tell as well as sneak attack?

without emralkul iona or prog by JustSin at Fri, 07/02/2010 - 20:42
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without emralkul iona or prog it isnt so bad imo