@char49d - that IS magic...looking for every out, playing every angle...clocks, bluffs, free info, etc... Just because someone doesn't see all available angles and then they cry foul to their own short-sidedness is folly and a poor fallacy at best...
True, it's not a popular belief, (see below in a few weeks), or one that would get you elected if magic was a counciled position...but it is one that continues to win, present case noted. If your 'the good guy' and I 'ever so shady-like' beat you...I'd never choose differently...complain all you want, I win.
I win, shady or not, you, as loser, get to complain and state why "X/Y/Z" are good/bad for the game, in the end...the tally marks matter, did you win or not? I did.
No one would make fun of Mr. Rodgers if they had even the slightest clue about him or his life, I'd do a little research he's like a less controversial Mother Teresa.
No one deserves that happening to him more than Mike Flores, and that's hardly a scummy trick, legacy is littered with stories of people winning games even with the crucial part of their combos missing because people simply concede. If you are playing a combo that can kill you if your order things wrong, don't order them wrong.
I don't know anything about Todd Anderson since I don't really follow the pro scene, but if you convince someone to draw with you into top eight, and then you make it and they don't, clearly you should disqualify yourself from the tournament and give up your spot. That's an actual scummy move, your advancing in a tournament without playing actual magic.
hall vs flores = no cheating but some scumbaggery. Just because it isnt cheating doesnt mean its right
I was under the impression that todd anderson gave a good part of his winnings to the guy who didnt make top8 cause of him. Maybe that doesnt make up for it, but it seems like an accident due to bad math. These things happen.
I think instead of the onslaught lands, what would be the most practical would be the Mirage fetch lands.
They come into play tapped and you don't take the shock.
The only reason I say that is because they lead to a slower STD, which is what they are trying to accomplish since ZEN was such a fast set while ISD and SOM were fairly slow for STD.
The Mirage lands, like Rocky Tar Pit, Mountain Valley, Grasslands, etc. come into play tapped, and can do the same thing as ZEN, and Onslaught lands except they come into play tapped and don't give you the life loss.
They aren't as good, but it would be something different.
While we're wildly speculating, I think they might want to do two things:
1. reprint the shocklands, as everyone is thinking/hoping for. Or, even better, dual lands with the basic types and different names/functionality. I'd take dual lands with basic types that always enter tapped.
2. (and this isn't so commonly noted) reprint the old fetch lands from Onslaught to have them into Modern. They already noted that having fetch lands only for enemy colors was an anomaly of Modern. And now we are in a moment where Standard has no proper fetch lands at all, so bring back the Onslaught ones wouldn't conflict with anything (while probably with the Zendikar ones still in Standard would have been too much).
I'm not seeing Tarmo in Standard. It was a Standard card only a few years ago, and it's too dangerous, you have to balance the meta very accurately to avoid the emergence of a super-deck. I think it's more likely they will bring it back through some collateral product, just to put more of them in circulation and fight the secondary market price.
Yep, there's a whole profile of players (Spikes, semi-pro) who just ride the horse of the current PTQ season, then get rid of everything. This way they can maybe buy a deck to use in more easily firing daily events during the off-season, making some more packs out of it. Then at the start of the next season, they buy a new deck from scratch, and it'll probably contain some of the cards they sold the previous year (e.g. dual lands), but also the new cards that's been printed in the meanwhile. If they just kept the old cards all along, it would have been a "frozen asset" for them (and some of them would be utterly worthless now). I understand this logic, even if this isn't how I play Magic at all.
I've done it with paper. It's very hard to sell off paper modern cards for a good value, Fetch lands have gone down, I have 4 foiled thoughtseize's, can't do anything with it, Clique's were all traded for $30 a piece, but all I could really get was some cash and Lilly's.
People are using the last few weeks to trade or sell all their modern paper to get ready for the STD PTQ's. I have one on the 7th, and the decks are insanely expensive on average. The RG aggro deck runs 4 Sword of W&P maindeck and 4 Sword of F&F in the sideboard. So what would you get rid of? Your STD stuff, or your modern stuff and play STD?
Btw, for the next PTQ I'm playing a Super-Ramp-Friends deck. So it's like GW with Titan into Planeswalkers into Elesh Norn, or Karn, or just ramp up a creature like Gideon's ultimate. It's RGW, and the red is only for mass removal and Red Sun Zenith. Btw, Red Sun Zenith does work. Exile away!
Well they haven't announced anything. But I just go website to website looking for anything, interviews/videos/speculation, etc.. It helps me buy cards before they drop.
I have heard that Goyf will be reprinted in the Spring of 2014 (If the world doesn't end).
From what I have put together, they want to lower the power of creatures because they have gotten out of control. They also want a 2 year cycle on the main stuff in core sets, So that alone says that Titans are 99.97% not being reprinted, while the planeswalkers will for their 2 year cycle, and the Duals wont based on a 2 year cycle, but this is just speculation since nobody knows.
The two things I am hedging on?
1) They might bring back duals that do damage to you, like tap for 1, deals nothing, tap for colored mana take a point of damage.
2) What are they going to replace the titans with? If they bring back the current PW's and get rid of Titans, what card would make you go to a store for the pre-release? I would think a Goyf, but they definitely need to introduce something.
All I know is that all the cards in that set Wizards said will be released. The issue is that STD Goyf wouldn't be great without fetch lands.
I am thinking they might bring back some interesting ZEN and SOM stuff in M13, but who knows. I wouldn't mind seeing something like a fetch land in M13. It wouldn't be too broken since the duals are just duals and not like the Beta Duals.
I had Hall's situation slightly off and it is even more interesting this way, from Sperling's article on CFB:
"In Zack Hall’s words, “We were in game one, I had 3 land (tapped) and 4-5 cards in hand. He has 1 land and an Aether Vial on one counter. I pass the turn and he EoT Vials in Nomads en-Kor. He untaps, ticks Vial up and puts in Cephalid Illusionist. Mike flashes me a Force and a blue card and says, “I have you”. I have no instants in hand, so I know it’s probably true that I’m dead. My response is, “Show me”."
Flores decks himself, then has to draw for the turn.
I feel like this sort of thing is common in tourneys and thus not really remarkable. Though I suppose given the cast of characters in this little set of dramas makes it more special. Flores is actually fairly nice (he agreed to be involved with the E-League Deck Clinic back in the day when I was looking for a more pro point of view for instance.) But the whole brag, e-pine, trump this stuff are not his best traits.
You probably know my own pov on JMTs. (But if you don't: I think they are the highest level of scummery aside from out and out cheating.) They become less dastardly when the "victim" is someone who does this sort of thing regularly or likes to brag about it at any rate, since there is a certain amount just-deserts. But really is this worth your time? (Or ours?)
The Anderson "scandal" is just another example of why IDs are so uncool.
Grats on the 2x Alchemy picks. Geist might have been better than the 2nd one but meh, 2-1 says I could be wrong. :)
Just to be clear - have they or have they not made an official announcement? If so, can you point me to an article or something? and If not, can you point me to and article where they talk about what they're thinking? I'm just curious.
I hope those awful uncommon CIPT duals from 8th don't come back.
"Other successes were during the old Extended format: Prices followed a pattern, rising in the fall and winter as Extended was popular due to being a PTQ format and dying during the spring and summer as it was no longer relevent. I would buy Engineered Explosives for sub-10 prices, Chrome Mox for 6-7, and shocklands for 25-50% off their in-season prices. I wasn't particularly aggressive about doing this either, but I could regularly invest 100-200 tickets during the summer and flip it for 300-400 tickets come fall. I imagine that if Modern is not a year-round PTQ format that we will see some similar peaks and valleys with cards like Vendillion Clique on MTGO."
I think there are at least some people who sell the cards at the end of the season at as high a price as possible so as not to be stuck with them if they become "old tech" and the price drops out.
Generally they would be the ones who only play the "best" deck after it becomes established in order to maximize their win percentages.
Though I'm purely speculating on this point.
I never really understood the seasonal price fluctuations either, either cards are good or they aren't.
I like the Scars duals, you just can't play too many of them. I'm really surprised Modern prices are dropping- do people only keep their cards during PTQ season? What happens when the next season starts up again? Do they acquire their decks all over again?
I also took the survey you listed. There are some things I feel could be greatly improved with Magic Online- the first and foremost of which is players having a voice into which cards they feel are too abusive for any particular format. I would like to see a thing where users can vote for the cards they absolutely cannot stand/think needs banning.
I still enjoy paper quite a bit; both of those incidents (if you want to call them that) were basically the result of bad play by Mike and Todd's opponent. If they know their TBs well, play tight technically, they're not losing a shot at T8. Paper is a ton of fun; more social. I can get mad at username JustSin more than I can Justin Michaels (or whatever) in person.
I have to say that reading this article and the one earlier this week about someone's adventures (sorry name is slipping my mind atm) in Paper and it doesn't really endear me to missing playing paper as opposed to online, not to mention my own bad experiences with fellow players during paper events
Yep, I'm not ripping the article, but I gave it three stars (still good!) because while the analysis was interesting, it seemed to have an overall incorrect plan (albeit by a couple months, not being absolutely wrong or anything).
Standings show both men at 36 points, 37 with a draw. There is a problem. Three players already had 37 points or more. Five others could draw into 37 points (or win and go higher, although winning/losing would knock out 2 of these people, taking us back down to Todd/Opponent+3+3) which is further exasperated by the fact that Shuuhei was playing vs a 34pointer, so he has to win. Plus, there was a match of 34 pointers playing, and Caleb Durward at 37 points could lose to a 34pointer who got paired WAY up.
Zack/Mike went like this: Mike is playing cephalid breakfast, which combos off with Narcomoebas and dread return (using hermit to dump the deck in the GY). It is sorcery-speed comboing due to Dread Return, but it is hard to interact with mid-combo... unless you tell your opponent that you've got the combo, he says show me, and you proceed to combo out... before drawing your card, indicating that you activated hermit, etc, on your upkeep step and allowed Zack to disrupt you since you can't just hold priority (like you could during your main phase).
The reason some people were mad was that Zack's "Show me" could be taken to mean "show me the combo and you win", if you're an idiot or playing at FNM or something. Otherwise, say, if you're playing for money, it generally means "Show me that you can beat me without me stopping you", which is how it went down here, and Mike lost the match. This is the type of trick the Flores thinks is amazing, so I don't feel bad that he got gotcha'd.
@char49d - that IS magic...looking for every out, playing every angle...clocks, bluffs, free info, etc... Just because someone doesn't see all available angles and then they cry foul to their own short-sidedness is folly and a poor fallacy at best...
True, it's not a popular belief, (see below in a few weeks), or one that would get you elected if magic was a counciled position...but it is one that continues to win, present case noted. If your 'the good guy' and I 'ever so shady-like' beat you...I'd never choose differently...complain all you want, I win.
I win, shady or not, you, as loser, get to complain and state why "X/Y/Z" are good/bad for the game, in the end...the tally marks matter, did you win or not? I did.
No one would make fun of Mr. Rodgers if they had even the slightest clue about him or his life, I'd do a little research he's like a less controversial Mother Teresa.
No one deserves that happening to him more than Mike Flores, and that's hardly a scummy trick, legacy is littered with stories of people winning games even with the crucial part of their combos missing because people simply concede. If you are playing a combo that can kill you if your order things wrong, don't order them wrong.
I don't know anything about Todd Anderson since I don't really follow the pro scene, but if you convince someone to draw with you into top eight, and then you make it and they don't, clearly you should disqualify yourself from the tournament and give up your spot. That's an actual scummy move, your advancing in a tournament without playing actual magic.
hall vs flores = no cheating but some scumbaggery. Just because it isnt cheating doesnt mean its right
I was under the impression that todd anderson gave a good part of his winnings to the guy who didnt make top8 cause of him. Maybe that doesnt make up for it, but it seems like an accident due to bad math. These things happen.
Todd Anderson wins. Many fans of 'mr. rodgers' and 'touchy-feely" clowns may disagree, but they're in the losers circle.
COP: Loser - W: Pay one Whine token, suspend failure for one turn...attach as many 'excuse tokens' as needed.
I think instead of the onslaught lands, what would be the most practical would be the Mirage fetch lands.
They come into play tapped and you don't take the shock.
The only reason I say that is because they lead to a slower STD, which is what they are trying to accomplish since ZEN was such a fast set while ISD and SOM were fairly slow for STD.
The Mirage lands, like Rocky Tar Pit, Mountain Valley, Grasslands, etc. come into play tapped, and can do the same thing as ZEN, and Onslaught lands except they come into play tapped and don't give you the life loss.
They aren't as good, but it would be something different.
While we're wildly speculating, I think they might want to do two things:
1. reprint the shocklands, as everyone is thinking/hoping for. Or, even better, dual lands with the basic types and different names/functionality. I'd take dual lands with basic types that always enter tapped.
2. (and this isn't so commonly noted) reprint the old fetch lands from Onslaught to have them into Modern. They already noted that having fetch lands only for enemy colors was an anomaly of Modern. And now we are in a moment where Standard has no proper fetch lands at all, so bring back the Onslaught ones wouldn't conflict with anything (while probably with the Zendikar ones still in Standard would have been too much).
I'm not seeing Tarmo in Standard. It was a Standard card only a few years ago, and it's too dangerous, you have to balance the meta very accurately to avoid the emergence of a super-deck. I think it's more likely they will bring it back through some collateral product, just to put more of them in circulation and fight the secondary market price.
Goyf was pretty strong last time without fetches.
Yep, there's a whole profile of players (Spikes, semi-pro) who just ride the horse of the current PTQ season, then get rid of everything. This way they can maybe buy a deck to use in more easily firing daily events during the off-season, making some more packs out of it. Then at the start of the next season, they buy a new deck from scratch, and it'll probably contain some of the cards they sold the previous year (e.g. dual lands), but also the new cards that's been printed in the meanwhile. If they just kept the old cards all along, it would have been a "frozen asset" for them (and some of them would be utterly worthless now). I understand this logic, even if this isn't how I play Magic at all.
I've done it with paper. It's very hard to sell off paper modern cards for a good value, Fetch lands have gone down, I have 4 foiled thoughtseize's, can't do anything with it, Clique's were all traded for $30 a piece, but all I could really get was some cash and Lilly's.
People are using the last few weeks to trade or sell all their modern paper to get ready for the STD PTQ's. I have one on the 7th, and the decks are insanely expensive on average. The RG aggro deck runs 4 Sword of W&P maindeck and 4 Sword of F&F in the sideboard. So what would you get rid of? Your STD stuff, or your modern stuff and play STD?
Btw, for the next PTQ I'm playing a Super-Ramp-Friends deck. So it's like GW with Titan into Planeswalkers into Elesh Norn, or Karn, or just ramp up a creature like Gideon's ultimate. It's RGW, and the red is only for mass removal and Red Sun Zenith. Btw, Red Sun Zenith does work. Exile away!
Well they haven't announced anything. But I just go website to website looking for anything, interviews/videos/speculation, etc.. It helps me buy cards before they drop.
I have heard that Goyf will be reprinted in the Spring of 2014 (If the world doesn't end).
From what I have put together, they want to lower the power of creatures because they have gotten out of control. They also want a 2 year cycle on the main stuff in core sets, So that alone says that Titans are 99.97% not being reprinted, while the planeswalkers will for their 2 year cycle, and the Duals wont based on a 2 year cycle, but this is just speculation since nobody knows.
The two things I am hedging on?
1) They might bring back duals that do damage to you, like tap for 1, deals nothing, tap for colored mana take a point of damage.
2) What are they going to replace the titans with? If they bring back the current PW's and get rid of Titans, what card would make you go to a store for the pre-release? I would think a Goyf, but they definitely need to introduce something.
All I know is that all the cards in that set Wizards said will be released. The issue is that STD Goyf wouldn't be great without fetch lands.
I am thinking they might bring back some interesting ZEN and SOM stuff in M13, but who knows. I wouldn't mind seeing something like a fetch land in M13. It wouldn't be too broken since the duals are just duals and not like the Beta Duals.
I had Hall's situation slightly off and it is even more interesting this way, from Sperling's article on CFB:
"In Zack Hall’s words, “We were in game one, I had 3 land (tapped) and 4-5 cards in hand. He has 1 land and an Aether Vial on one counter. I pass the turn and he EoT Vials in Nomads en-Kor. He untaps, ticks Vial up and puts in Cephalid Illusionist. Mike flashes me a Force and a blue card and says, “I have you”. I have no instants in hand, so I know it’s probably true that I’m dead. My response is, “Show me”."
Flores decks himself, then has to draw for the turn.
The comments here just reflect personal opinions afaict. Don't be too alarmed yet.
I feel like this sort of thing is common in tourneys and thus not really remarkable. Though I suppose given the cast of characters in this little set of dramas makes it more special. Flores is actually fairly nice (he agreed to be involved with the E-League Deck Clinic back in the day when I was looking for a more pro point of view for instance.) But the whole brag, e-pine, trump this stuff are not his best traits.
You probably know my own pov on JMTs. (But if you don't: I think they are the highest level of scummery aside from out and out cheating.) They become less dastardly when the "victim" is someone who does this sort of thing regularly or likes to brag about it at any rate, since there is a certain amount just-deserts. But really is this worth your time? (Or ours?)
The Anderson "scandal" is just another example of why IDs are so uncool.
Grats on the 2x Alchemy picks. Geist might have been better than the 2nd one but meh, 2-1 says I could be wrong. :)
Just to be clear - have they or have they not made an official announcement? If so, can you point me to an article or something? and If not, can you point me to and article where they talk about what they're thinking? I'm just curious.
I hope those awful uncommon CIPT duals from 8th don't come back.
From http://magic-eternal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=108
"Other successes were during the old Extended format: Prices followed a pattern, rising in the fall and winter as Extended was popular due to being a PTQ format and dying during the spring and summer as it was no longer relevent. I would buy Engineered Explosives for sub-10 prices, Chrome Mox for 6-7, and shocklands for 25-50% off their in-season prices. I wasn't particularly aggressive about doing this either, but I could regularly invest 100-200 tickets during the summer and flip it for 300-400 tickets come fall. I imagine that if Modern is not a year-round PTQ format that we will see some similar peaks and valleys with cards like Vendillion Clique on MTGO."
Are you taking my bet against Goyf in M13 yet?
Research WotC R&D. They are reprinting the duals, but either different names, or different rarity.
The theory is that the duals will be uncommons that come into play tapped.
All the while Titans are out the window, and the bet is on for when they are printing Goyf for STD.
I think there are at least some people who sell the cards at the end of the season at as high a price as possible so as not to be stuck with them if they become "old tech" and the price drops out.
Generally they would be the ones who only play the "best" deck after it becomes established in order to maximize their win percentages.
Though I'm purely speculating on this point.
I never really understood the seasonal price fluctuations either, either cards are good or they aren't.
I like the Scars duals, you just can't play too many of them. I'm really surprised Modern prices are dropping- do people only keep their cards during PTQ season? What happens when the next season starts up again? Do they acquire their decks all over again?
I also took the survey you listed. There are some things I feel could be greatly improved with Magic Online- the first and foremost of which is players having a voice into which cards they feel are too abusive for any particular format. I would like to see a thing where users can vote for the cards they absolutely cannot stand/think needs banning.
"...and with the M12 ones not being reprinted"
Did I miss an announcement? Are the M10-M12 duals on their way out?!
I still enjoy paper quite a bit; both of those incidents (if you want to call them that) were basically the result of bad play by Mike and Todd's opponent. If they know their TBs well, play tight technically, they're not losing a shot at T8. Paper is a ton of fun; more social. I can get mad at username JustSin more than I can Justin Michaels (or whatever) in person.
Thank you for the explanation.
I have to say that reading this article and the one earlier this week about someone's adventures (sorry name is slipping my mind atm) in Paper and it doesn't really endear me to missing playing paper as opposed to online, not to mention my own bad experiences with fellow players during paper events
Yep, I'm not ripping the article, but I gave it three stars (still good!) because while the analysis was interesting, it seemed to have an overall incorrect plan (albeit by a couple months, not being absolutely wrong or anything).
Sorry, I tried to AVOID screwing up the stories due to lack of info:
At GP Nashville, Todd was in contention for T8. His tiebreaks were solid. His opponent was in contention too.
http://wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage...
Standings show both men at 36 points, 37 with a draw. There is a problem. Three players already had 37 points or more. Five others could draw into 37 points (or win and go higher, although winning/losing would knock out 2 of these people, taking us back down to Todd/Opponent+3+3) which is further exasperated by the fact that Shuuhei was playing vs a 34pointer, so he has to win. Plus, there was a match of 34 pointers playing, and Caleb Durward at 37 points could lose to a 34pointer who got paired WAY up.
http://wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage...
Todd's 37 points was good for seventh, but his opponent? Virtual top 8 as the only 37pointer to not T8. His weaker TBers doomed him.
Zack/Mike went like this: Mike is playing cephalid breakfast, which combos off with Narcomoebas and dread return (using hermit to dump the deck in the GY). It is sorcery-speed comboing due to Dread Return, but it is hard to interact with mid-combo... unless you tell your opponent that you've got the combo, he says show me, and you proceed to combo out... before drawing your card, indicating that you activated hermit, etc, on your upkeep step and allowed Zack to disrupt you since you can't just hold priority (like you could during your main phase).
The reason some people were mad was that Zack's "Show me" could be taken to mean "show me the combo and you win", if you're an idiot or playing at FNM or something. Otherwise, say, if you're playing for money, it generally means "Show me that you can beat me without me stopping you", which is how it went down here, and Mike lost the match. This is the type of trick the Flores thinks is amazing, so I don't feel bad that he got gotcha'd.