Regarding Meddling Mage - it's very good news to me having it be reprinted. In Classic, I think it's a card that could go in some decks, but those decks aren't played as much as they could be because Meddling Mage is too expensive, and in the current format playing a deck that could use Meddling Mage, without it, is a large handicap.
Regarding the artwork though, the new artwork is very good in the abstract. And in terms of Pikula's picture: Not counting TSB, were any invitational cards ever reprinted before this? If no, then A) it reflects well on Chris Pikula that his card design was good enough to be reprinted on its own merits, and B) it sets the precedent that invitational cards can and will have new artwork if they're ever reprinted - so it's not a slight to Chris Pikula.
You forgot Invoke the Firemind, which acts as Blaze and Mind Spring both. Izzet has some of the best spell recursion with Izzet Chronomancer and the devastating Nucklavee. As for the creatures, don't underestimate Mindwrack Liege just because it costs 6 mana. Being able to cheat Progenitus, Nicol Bolas or similar threats into play in your opponent's EOT step can be devastating. They also have the only time walk variant in the format.
which are legal in Tribal. In most of those cases, those decks do not have any one definable, bannable card which empowers them, but rather a critical mass of excellent cards.
Many of the bans are a legacy of the days when the card pool for tribal was Invasion block, 7th, Odyssey Block and Onslaught, but given the way the format has evolved, some are looking increasingly dated and unworthy of their place. Story Circle is more relevant than the tribal variant in the majority of cases.
Totally agree at the second pick you take Mycoloth. Pitch the first pick guy...hes only ok. Mycoloth, if it sticks even for a couple turns, is game over. Your neighbor is clearly signaling that he doesnt want to go green. You gotta pick up on that and take that dood.
One poster said obv you made the right choice since in pack 3...etc. But if you change your first pack picks then obv someone else would have been esper and those picks wouldnt have tabled. Seems obv but mabye not to all...
and no mox diamonds in gush ? i thought it would be good like gush deploy mox feed tog go!
speculating a combo deck hmm? would be great, yes legacy online ftw. possibly a gauge to vintage
I meant compared to something like Goblins, Elves or Merfolk which are playable in regular classic at a sanctioned level. I think the ban decisions need to take into consideration that this is Classic based, and that the most degenerate decks are very likely decks that can be ported without much (or any) change straight from classic (Flash with Sliver kill, for example).
Although the format isn't sanctioned, I think the banning should be considered in that sort of light and kept to a minimal list; if something is banned, it is very hard to play it at all (one would need to do Classic and rely / trust the opponent at the very least). If something is not banned and you don't want to play against it, it won't come up most of the time in classic and it is just in general easier to deal with. This is why I would unban everything up to Tsabo's Decree. Engineered Plague costs 3 and has a huge impact, should stay banned.
I don't think "spirit of the format" bans like "ban everything that allows you to name out creature types" makes sense. For example, at the time of inception the "tribal CoP" was banned. Why? This is a 4 mana enchantment that requires more mana to do anything. Opposition, Glare of Subdual, Worship or other 4-mana enchantments are very likely a better idea even if this card can sometimes "prevent" damage from every creature the opponent has.
And I found that the on-tribe Court Hussar was fine as a ponder substitute to dig with. Since you're effectively running 8 copies of each component anyway, I never had any problem in getting the combo. Well-reasoned analysis, although bear in mind that a deck featuring Mirror Entity, Chameleon Colossus and Taurean Mauler is not necessarily subpar.
...do count as every creature type everywhere. It is possible to build, for example, a Wolverine Tribal with Karplusan Wolverine, Spurred Wolverine and three Changelings. It's worth noting the changeling non-creature spells (and other cards with the tribal supertype) do not count for tribal purposes.
Tsabo's Decree - it is 6 mana after all, if you are playing dark rituals you can do better stuff even within the constrain of Tribal
Endemic Plague - 2 card combos that only act as 1-sided wraths for that much mana put in do not need to stay banned
Circle of Solace - 4 mana, 1W for each activation! That's a lot of mana to keep tied up to fog every turn
Unnatural Selection - even when it could "Winnow" it was an on-board trick, people could just not play the 2nd copy after first getting hit; not it can not even do that it is ridiculous this is still banned.
Peer Pressure - it isn't easy to get this to work as a mass Blatant Thievery, and doing so forces you into subpar creatures mostly.
Of all these the only one I could have 2nd thoughts is Decree, because accelerating to it seems like it could be a competitive strategy. Everything else is rather casual "Johnny" style stuff even when you pull it off.
Of the possible 2 card combos, the decent ones are not banned e.g. the ones AJ used, particularly Suleiman + Artificial Evolution as it not only sweeps them it also "Meddling Mages / Llawans" all their stuff for as low as 3 mana - that is a soft lock reminiscent of Scepter+Chant (which is stronger and currently allowed in the format by the way) as it stops combat damage to you and prevents them from developing with more creatures. I could imagine Suleiman getting banned, but I don't think even that is needed.
AJ, next time you try to break Suleiman, maybe run some Tutors for it (Enlightened Tutor and Merchant Scroll are and in-color).
The rest of the cards can stay banned, there are two specific to tribal. Engineered Plague is really strong (even in regular classic) and should definitively stay banned. Jitte makes sense in a such a creature defined format as it is really that strong in combat.
i never tried tribal at the moment, but i will for sure. I like the concept too much, and i often build decks in others format which were pretty close to tribal builds. Your articles are pushing me to try the format very soon (nice job) even if i am really enjoying Kal format currently (kal is really an awesome format to me).
I have a rule question (sorry if it is stupid, but i am a noob in the format) : how does changeling work in the amount of tribal cards ? I mean when you are building a tribal deck, are the changeling considered also as "all creature type" or is it only considered as changeling type ? I guess it is changeling only, but i would like to be sure :)
By the way, i agree with the fact that some anonymous comment are really useless...
I'm anxious to see if the Coatl will be awesome. I'd bet yes if I could. Especially with Brainstorm and Top. Maybe play it with Jace? The "bad player" in me wants to pair it with Overbeing of Myth, of course.
Interesting note about Pikula's picture. My gut reaction to new artwork would be "meh" except that he is the only Invitational winner (who has had his card made yet) who has lost his artwork. I thought that all of the TSB reprints kept their original art. I didn't know that Kai's art changed. But that they went through the trouble of making new art for Kai but yet kept him in the picture makes me wonder why they didn't do that for Pikula, too.
@reaper9889: If you hit R&D with cascade then just play the Development half! Big effect at a big discount.
I agree with the poster about 1st draft picks, you got 2 drumhunters, draft the 5 power guys. Topan Ascetic fits the bill as well.
The second draft I would take mycoloth as a VERY good sign to go green, which uncommon could he have taken instead of mycoloth? I can only think of tower gargoyle.
I've never played tribal, but you argued so convincingly for your changes to the banned list that I completely agree. Whatever you say should go on on off, should go on or off.
I'm very surprised that Tsabo's Decree, Engineered Plague, and Endemic Plague are banned, and that Extinction isn't. That is definitely a mistake. I guess they only ban cards if people complain? Maybe no one is abusing it?
Argument and argumentation have two different meanings, of which you apparently are not aware. I already thought his argument, such as it was, was without merit, so his position could not have been weakened from its already baseless level. Instead, I suggested he check his argumentation so that in future debates he not lose cred for mindless distraction.
There will always be a few... 'less than stellar' comments with an open door policy, but there are also diamonds in the rough. Let people say what they like: The good comments are good if they have a name attached or no. Let each post stand on its own merits.
this reply seems somewhat uncalled for. I know full well what Damnation does (And even that can be made one-sided through the use of cards such as Cauldron Haze, mechanics such as persist or indestructability), but the point stands. As for what will and won't be banned, that is still up in the air, and will be up in the air on a month by month basis.
are you that insecure about yourself that you have to go out of your way to call out other people for actually using their vocabulary? i know bazaar and he is far from a dumb dumb.
on another note is there any way to make it impossible for people to leave comments if they are not registered? this will save a lot of people a lot of time, the rediculos posts such as dumb dumb, and the posts like mine that call out the anon retardedness.
argumentation? can't you just say argument? you must be really scared to be looked at as a dumb dumb... and no, i am not the guy who originally called you that.
Allow me to start with a caveat of: I'm not a very good player; as my 75-card, I don't even have a sideboard, casual piles can attest to.
However, you seem to be siding out the stingers and seals for 4 duress in nearly 3/4 of your matches.
Would it not make more sense then to have the 4 duress main and side in the stingers/seals for those few
matches where you wouldn't of sided them out?
Like I said, I'm not a strong player and maybe there's a good reason to start with them in the sideboard
instead of main...
Thanks for all the writeups you've been doing...they've certainly helped me, and eventually I might even
graduate out of the noob category :)
Regarding Meddling Mage - it's very good news to me having it be reprinted. In Classic, I think it's a card that could go in some decks, but those decks aren't played as much as they could be because Meddling Mage is too expensive, and in the current format playing a deck that could use Meddling Mage, without it, is a large handicap.
Regarding the artwork though, the new artwork is very good in the abstract. And in terms of Pikula's picture: Not counting TSB, were any invitational cards ever reprinted before this? If no, then A) it reflects well on Chris Pikula that his card design was good enough to be reprinted on its own merits, and B) it sets the precedent that invitational cards can and will have new artwork if they're ever reprinted - so it's not a slight to Chris Pikula.
You forgot Invoke the Firemind, which acts as Blaze and Mind Spring both. Izzet has some of the best spell recursion with Izzet Chronomancer and the devastating Nucklavee. As for the creatures, don't underestimate Mindwrack Liege just because it costs 6 mana. Being able to cheat Progenitus, Nicol Bolas or similar threats into play in your opponent's EOT step can be devastating. They also have the only time walk variant in the format.
which are legal in Tribal. In most of those cases, those decks do not have any one definable, bannable card which empowers them, but rather a critical mass of excellent cards.
Many of the bans are a legacy of the days when the card pool for tribal was Invasion block, 7th, Odyssey Block and Onslaught, but given the way the format has evolved, some are looking increasingly dated and unworthy of their place. Story Circle is more relevant than the tribal variant in the majority of cases.
Totally agree at the second pick you take Mycoloth. Pitch the first pick guy...hes only ok. Mycoloth, if it sticks even for a couple turns, is game over. Your neighbor is clearly signaling that he doesnt want to go green. You gotta pick up on that and take that dood.
One poster said obv you made the right choice since in pack 3...etc. But if you change your first pack picks then obv someone else would have been esper and those picks wouldnt have tabled. Seems obv but mabye not to all...
-M
Great article... horrible picture. Change it back or to something more appealing.
and no mox diamonds in gush ? i thought it would be good like gush deploy mox feed tog go!
speculating a combo deck hmm? would be great, yes legacy online ftw. possibly a gauge to vintage
dont worry BoB we know youre not a dumb dumb, and whiffy that pic is creeping me out dude
I meant compared to something like Goblins, Elves or Merfolk which are playable in regular classic at a sanctioned level. I think the ban decisions need to take into consideration that this is Classic based, and that the most degenerate decks are very likely decks that can be ported without much (or any) change straight from classic (Flash with Sliver kill, for example).
Although the format isn't sanctioned, I think the banning should be considered in that sort of light and kept to a minimal list; if something is banned, it is very hard to play it at all (one would need to do Classic and rely / trust the opponent at the very least). If something is not banned and you don't want to play against it, it won't come up most of the time in classic and it is just in general easier to deal with. This is why I would unban everything up to Tsabo's Decree. Engineered Plague costs 3 and has a huge impact, should stay banned.
I don't think "spirit of the format" bans like "ban everything that allows you to name out creature types" makes sense. For example, at the time of inception the "tribal CoP" was banned. Why? This is a 4 mana enchantment that requires more mana to do anything. Opposition, Glare of Subdual, Worship or other 4-mana enchantments are very likely a better idea even if this card can sometimes "prevent" damage from every creature the opponent has.
And I found that the on-tribe Court Hussar was fine as a ponder substitute to dig with. Since you're effectively running 8 copies of each component anyway, I never had any problem in getting the combo. Well-reasoned analysis, although bear in mind that a deck featuring Mirror Entity, Chameleon Colossus and Taurean Mauler is not necessarily subpar.
...do count as every creature type everywhere. It is possible to build, for example, a Wolverine Tribal with Karplusan Wolverine, Spurred Wolverine and three Changelings. It's worth noting the changeling non-creature spells (and other cards with the tribal supertype) do not count for tribal purposes.
I would personally unban:
Tsabo's Decree - it is 6 mana after all, if you are playing dark rituals you can do better stuff even within the constrain of Tribal
Endemic Plague - 2 card combos that only act as 1-sided wraths for that much mana put in do not need to stay banned
Circle of Solace - 4 mana, 1W for each activation! That's a lot of mana to keep tied up to fog every turn
Unnatural Selection - even when it could "Winnow" it was an on-board trick, people could just not play the 2nd copy after first getting hit; not it can not even do that it is ridiculous this is still banned.
Peer Pressure - it isn't easy to get this to work as a mass Blatant Thievery, and doing so forces you into subpar creatures mostly.
Of all these the only one I could have 2nd thoughts is Decree, because accelerating to it seems like it could be a competitive strategy. Everything else is rather casual "Johnny" style stuff even when you pull it off.
Of the possible 2 card combos, the decent ones are not banned e.g. the ones AJ used, particularly Suleiman + Artificial Evolution as it not only sweeps them it also "Meddling Mages / Llawans" all their stuff for as low as 3 mana - that is a soft lock reminiscent of Scepter+Chant (which is stronger and currently allowed in the format by the way) as it stops combat damage to you and prevents them from developing with more creatures. I could imagine Suleiman getting banned, but I don't think even that is needed.
AJ, next time you try to break Suleiman, maybe run some Tutors for it (Enlightened Tutor and Merchant Scroll are and in-color).
The rest of the cards can stay banned, there are two specific to tribal. Engineered Plague is really strong (even in regular classic) and should definitively stay banned. Jitte makes sense in a such a creature defined format as it is really that strong in combat.
i never tried tribal at the moment, but i will for sure. I like the concept too much, and i often build decks in others format which were pretty close to tribal builds. Your articles are pushing me to try the format very soon (nice job) even if i am really enjoying Kal format currently (kal is really an awesome format to me).
I have a rule question (sorry if it is stupid, but i am a noob in the format) : how does changeling work in the amount of tribal cards ? I mean when you are building a tribal deck, are the changeling considered also as "all creature type" or is it only considered as changeling type ? I guess it is changeling only, but i would like to be sure :)
By the way, i agree with the fact that some anonymous comment are really useless...
MY budget deck has been beating rare and dual land filled decks all day in the two player queue : P
Ooh! Explorations! Click it.
I'm anxious to see if the Coatl will be awesome. I'd bet yes if I could. Especially with Brainstorm and Top. Maybe play it with Jace? The "bad player" in me wants to pair it with Overbeing of Myth, of course.
Interesting note about Pikula's picture. My gut reaction to new artwork would be "meh" except that he is the only Invitational winner (who has had his card made yet) who has lost his artwork. I thought that all of the TSB reprints kept their original art. I didn't know that Kai's art changed. But that they went through the trouble of making new art for Kai but yet kept him in the picture makes me wonder why they didn't do that for Pikula, too.
@reaper9889: If you hit R&D with cascade then just play the Development half! Big effect at a big discount.
I agree with the poster about 1st draft picks, you got 2 drumhunters, draft the 5 power guys. Topan Ascetic fits the bill as well.
The second draft I would take mycoloth as a VERY good sign to go green, which uncommon could he have taken instead of mycoloth? I can only think of tower gargoyle.
I've never played tribal, but you argued so convincingly for your changes to the banned list that I completely agree. Whatever you say should go on on off, should go on or off.
I'm very surprised that Tsabo's Decree, Engineered Plague, and Endemic Plague are banned, and that Extinction isn't. That is definitely a mistake. I guess they only ban cards if people complain? Maybe no one is abusing it?
Argument and argumentation have two different meanings, of which you apparently are not aware. I already thought his argument, such as it was, was without merit, so his position could not have been weakened from its already baseless level. Instead, I suggested he check his argumentation so that in future debates he not lose cred for mindless distraction.
By a player that had the best naya deck I have seen in sometime.
At least he went on to win the 8 man.
There will always be a few... 'less than stellar' comments with an open door policy, but there are also diamonds in the rough. Let people say what they like: The good comments are good if they have a name attached or no. Let each post stand on its own merits.
this reply seems somewhat uncalled for. I know full well what Damnation does (And even that can be made one-sided through the use of cards such as Cauldron Haze, mechanics such as persist or indestructability), but the point stands. As for what will and won't be banned, that is still up in the air, and will be up in the air on a month by month basis.
are you that insecure about yourself that you have to go out of your way to call out other people for actually using their vocabulary? i know bazaar and he is far from a dumb dumb.
on another note is there any way to make it impossible for people to leave comments if they are not registered? this will save a lot of people a lot of time, the rediculos posts such as dumb dumb, and the posts like mine that call out the anon retardedness.
what the heck happened in that 2nd draft? not drafting a whole lot of alara, that 2nd draft looked insane for you. wanna post what happened?
argumentation? can't you just say argument? you must be really scared to be looked at as a dumb dumb... and no, i am not the guy who originally called you that.
Except it looks at Planeswalker type instead of name.