Yeah honestly I'm surprised they are not run more often. Explosives is good versus most decks and blows some out of the water. Countertop shuts down almost every deck in the format. And Shackles is pretty solid too :)
If a large amount of Countertop/shackles decks begin to show up, then it's probably time to move away from B/W, but until then, I feel like it's a very strong option.
RE Vanguard yeah I didn't see that in action vs Dragonstorm, pretty cool.
As far as Classic, burn was played by a decent number of players which didn't hurt Flash. That said there was not burn at the top tables from what I saw. One burn deck made top eight but it clearly was unprepared for what was in the top eight.
BW I think is an okay deck but honestly I'm not a huge fan. I really like all the cards it runs but I think it has a couple problems. Cheif among them being Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance, Engineered Explosives, and Tarmogoyf. A single one of those cards can trump half BW's spells. I would expect a rise in Counterbalance decks in the near future and that will hurt BW.
That said it might just be personal bias because all the decks I play have Countertop and Explosives, and more often than not Shackles.
For Vanguard, I think there are two keys to cwllc's WG Mirri deck. First, Gaddock Teeg stops Damnation or Jhoira tricks. Second, cwllc has Burrenton Forge-Tender and Pariah for a 2-card combo win vs Dragonstorm. I will probably never play Mirri as long as Dragonstorm and Ashling are around, but cwllc's deck has more game against Dragonstorm than I realized. Adding black for Doran may give Mirri more game against Ashling, although Ashling usually packs point removal for the few creatures the avatar can't gun down.
Wouldn't something like Decree of Pain be good in this deck as it provides some defense after the epic spell .... also Mindstone can ramp your mana into the epic and then bolser it by sacking it for card draw afterwards.
I wouldn't say that RGW is obviously the most optimal color for the red epic either. Mono red is pretty good with tron or vesuva/cloudpost .... you have all the red channel spells, divining top .... plus activating red myojin with red epic on the stack is nice ... myojin and darksteel collosus make for a nice burn from epic.
I understand that you want to keep it as THE win condition, but the deck is the same incredibly weak. If you want to keep the entire deck centered on neverending torment, you should at least backup it with counters, mass removal for enchantments and artifacts (going white), something to keep up the game when you already cannot cast spells anymore. Your deck (without any rudeness) is just a bunch of draw plus one win-condition plus 4 mass removal cards, with all the troubles i've already described in my last comment. However, it's your deck and you are free to put it the way you like, I've just the idea that having at least the 30% of winning is nice when playing (otherwise, solitaire is better :) )
Draegar, thats an excellent point about the autochon wurm, the RGW is the best fit for Undying flames, as their are some excellent multi's that augment its power, but thats gonna have to wait til later...
Elrogos, you have some excellent points, especially about channel, but the goal in setting out wasnt to make torment the alternate win condition, but rather THE win condition, while a better deck could be made, i decided to center the deck around the epic cards, rather than just fit them into a proven deck.
Congrats on your first article. For the record, I enjoy reading articles about "jank" cards, it may never find any real hidden gems, but it is far more fun to build something that no one else is building than just take the latest deck that Kenji is running off the net. I'd personally ditch the four slots for Quicken though, and add something else, whether it's for some Drudge Skeletons, or something heftier, you need a few more critters, and an early game (you don't want to lose your apprentices, so you need something besides them to take hits). I'd also consider walking away from Boseiju, it can be useful sure, but it's a card I'd be sideboarding against MUC decks and that's about it. Just my opinion. Good luck with the articles, I'm looking forward to Part 2.
Well I must say your article was written great. Your subject not so much. I hope you keep writting artilces, but I would beg of you to write something worth reading. This little serious honestly is not. I believe casual decks have no chance ever. If they work out well then they aren't casual anymore, and if they don't work out then they just lose and suck to play. It's a no win situation I think.
Keep up the writing and please consider going in a new direction with it.
Ehy, congratulations for the deck and trying to use neverending torment in a deck. I love that card, and i like to play it; however, i can't understand how your deck is supposed to win in even a super-casual environment.
First, you can't go on "casual" with 4 aeon chroniclers, 4 damnations, 4 Jace and the 4 duals, unless you accept to go against "casual" decks that play confidant, Jitte, Tarmogoyf and fetchlands.
Second, the deck itself is really really too weak! you try to fit in the Gravestorm thing, wasting slots that could be useful with creatures or cards that can be played as abilities instead as spells; you try Aeon Chroniclers withouth the slightest mana accelleration (when are you suspending them? on turn 6 for just one turn? so they die to your own damnation the next turn if you are not already "dead"?); you use subpar cards like quicken, jushi apprentice (useless without some protection, maybe from counters), spellbook; you assume that 4 damnation can put an end to all the troubles you can have (casual decks go from the fast gruul that do not die to damnation to the mirari's wake decks that wreck you if you have not responses to yosei or mirari's wake etc. 4 damnation are useful maybe the 40% of the times).
I would really change the deck keeping Neverending torment as an alternative win condition, i would add green for some accelleration and big critters (simic sky swallowers), i would put in 3 graceful adept that can stop initial threats, some decent beater with evasion and drawing (soramaro for example), keep 2 damnation and put in 3 decree of pain; plus some strong counter, blu miojin and some "channel" cards.
Your mana curve could have been helped alot by the inclusion of Vesper Ghoul, which incidently, is also a zombie. But still the problematic 1/1 though.
I think it would have been interesting to mention the makeup of the field overall, and the influence of last week's Building on a Budget column. Specifically, the most common archetype last week was Burn after it had been dying down for a while. I think this was part of the reason for Flash's resurgence.
Dang no love/recommendations for BW Ale? It's a very solid alternative to UGr thresh, although it definently does require more testing. However, to be fair, Whiffy Penguin is one of the best thresh players out there, and he accounts for a decent amount of the t8s.
My testing has shown that Elephant is actually a risk in this format. Currently, between bounce and cheap removal, Elephant represents a huge risk and potential tempo loss. Additionally, the three power one drop has been semi-replaced with Rootwalla. In more controling metas, Elephant is probably the right call however. This subsequentially means Wurm is not worth the trouble most of the time.
Agree with the above poster. Great job! Makes me wish I knew about this site long long ago with all the great information I am reading here. not sure when started, but I am greatfull you did.
Against MUC, the right game plan makes it very easy to win. I wouldn't say you can't lose, but look at my article on this site about beating MUC- Stompy is very good at doing just that.
Black based removal is more of a coin flip. Sometimes you can just overrun them before the removal matters, and sometimes they get the defensive curve you need. I find, however, that Black decks that run endgame spells like Corrupt or Consume Spirit have a better shot of beating the deck.
Yeah honestly I'm surprised they are not run more often. Explosives is good versus most decks and blows some out of the water. Countertop shuts down almost every deck in the format. And Shackles is pretty solid too :)
flow rock is a good choice for a ptq? guys i need help my ptq is next week i no have a one decklist :(
Yeah, this seems much more than casual to me. Also i would prefer my casual decks to actually win sometimes...
How about:
creatures(14):
x4 Voidmage Prodigy(counters under Epic)
x4 Jushi Apprentice(and a wizard)
x4 Fathom Seer(Epic triggers, stack, flip and search for 4 more cards)
x2 Etheral Usher(transmutes for Torment)
spells(
x4 Remand
x4 Repeal
x4 Ichor Slick/creature kill(does playing this w/ madness count as playing a spell? if not maybe Death Pulse?)
x4 Think Twice(or other cheap draw of choice)
x3 Neverending Torment
x4 Mindstone (acceleration, much needed for 6cc win condition)
land(23)
x4 Watery Grave(while strictly casual, these should be on everyone's list to get untill ME2 comes out)
x4 Dimir Aquaduct(bouces a land)
x2 Toloria West
x1 Boseju
x2 Swamp
x10 Islands
If you have the above you proball have most/all of my deck. I would like to see how it does comparativly.
Regards,
___helper_monkey on MTGO
If a large amount of Countertop/shackles decks begin to show up, then it's probably time to move away from B/W, but until then, I feel like it's a very strong option.
RE Vanguard yeah I didn't see that in action vs Dragonstorm, pretty cool.
As far as Classic, burn was played by a decent number of players which didn't hurt Flash. That said there was not burn at the top tables from what I saw. One burn deck made top eight but it clearly was unprepared for what was in the top eight.
BW I think is an okay deck but honestly I'm not a huge fan. I really like all the cards it runs but I think it has a couple problems. Cheif among them being Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance, Engineered Explosives, and Tarmogoyf. A single one of those cards can trump half BW's spells. I would expect a rise in Counterbalance decks in the near future and that will hurt BW.
That said it might just be personal bias because all the decks I play have Countertop and Explosives, and more often than not Shackles.
For Vanguard, I think there are two keys to cwllc's WG Mirri deck. First, Gaddock Teeg stops Damnation or Jhoira tricks. Second, cwllc has Burrenton Forge-Tender and Pariah for a 2-card combo win vs Dragonstorm. I will probably never play Mirri as long as Dragonstorm and Ashling are around, but cwllc's deck has more game against Dragonstorm than I realized. Adding black for Doran may give Mirri more game against Ashling, although Ashling usually packs point removal for the few creatures the avatar can't gun down.
Wouldn't something like Decree of Pain be good in this deck as it provides some defense after the epic spell .... also Mindstone can ramp your mana into the epic and then bolser it by sacking it for card draw afterwards.
I wouldn't say that RGW is obviously the most optimal color for the red epic either. Mono red is pretty good with tron or vesuva/cloudpost .... you have all the red channel spells, divining top .... plus activating red myojin with red epic on the stack is nice ... myojin and darksteel collosus make for a nice burn from epic.
I understand that you want to keep it as THE win condition, but the deck is the same incredibly weak. If you want to keep the entire deck centered on neverending torment, you should at least backup it with counters, mass removal for enchantments and artifacts (going white), something to keep up the game when you already cannot cast spells anymore. Your deck (without any rudeness) is just a bunch of draw plus one win-condition plus 4 mass removal cards, with all the troubles i've already described in my last comment. However, it's your deck and you are free to put it the way you like, I've just the idea that having at least the 30% of winning is nice when playing (otherwise, solitaire is better :) )
Draegar, thats an excellent point about the autochon wurm, the RGW is the best fit for Undying flames, as their are some excellent multi's that augment its power, but thats gonna have to wait til later...
Elrogos, you have some excellent points, especially about channel, but the goal in setting out wasnt to make torment the alternate win condition, but rather THE win condition, while a better deck could be made, i decided to center the deck around the epic cards, rather than just fit them into a proven deck.
The Red epic spell (can't remember the actual name) already has a pretty good deck going for it
using that 14 cmc wurm from Rav (sorry I suck at remembering names)
Congrats on your first article. For the record, I enjoy reading articles about "jank" cards, it may never find any real hidden gems, but it is far more fun to build something that no one else is building than just take the latest deck that Kenji is running off the net. I'd personally ditch the four slots for Quicken though, and add something else, whether it's for some Drudge Skeletons, or something heftier, you need a few more critters, and an early game (you don't want to lose your apprentices, so you need something besides them to take hits). I'd also consider walking away from Boseiju, it can be useful sure, but it's a card I'd be sideboarding against MUC decks and that's about it. Just my opinion. Good luck with the articles, I'm looking forward to Part 2.
Please explain to me how including a three mana 1/1 that hurts me helps my mana curve, since most of my spells cost three or less?
-Alex
Well I must say your article was written great. Your subject not so much. I hope you keep writting artilces, but I would beg of you to write something worth reading. This little serious honestly is not. I believe casual decks have no chance ever. If they work out well then they aren't casual anymore, and if they don't work out then they just lose and suck to play. It's a no win situation I think.
Keep up the writing and please consider going in a new direction with it.
Ehy, congratulations for the deck and trying to use neverending torment in a deck. I love that card, and i like to play it; however, i can't understand how your deck is supposed to win in even a super-casual environment.
First, you can't go on "casual" with 4 aeon chroniclers, 4 damnations, 4 Jace and the 4 duals, unless you accept to go against "casual" decks that play confidant, Jitte, Tarmogoyf and fetchlands.
Second, the deck itself is really really too weak! you try to fit in the Gravestorm thing, wasting slots that could be useful with creatures or cards that can be played as abilities instead as spells; you try Aeon Chroniclers withouth the slightest mana accelleration (when are you suspending them? on turn 6 for just one turn? so they die to your own damnation the next turn if you are not already "dead"?); you use subpar cards like quicken, jushi apprentice (useless without some protection, maybe from counters), spellbook; you assume that 4 damnation can put an end to all the troubles you can have (casual decks go from the fast gruul that do not die to damnation to the mirari's wake decks that wreck you if you have not responses to yosei or mirari's wake etc. 4 damnation are useful maybe the 40% of the times).
I would really change the deck keeping Neverending torment as an alternative win condition, i would add green for some accelleration and big critters (simic sky swallowers), i would put in 3 graceful adept that can stop initial threats, some decent beater with evasion and drawing (soramaro for example), keep 2 damnation and put in 3 decree of pain; plus some strong counter, blu miojin and some "channel" cards.
Your mana curve could have been helped alot by the inclusion of Vesper Ghoul, which incidently, is also a zombie. But still the problematic 1/1 though.
Also, I like the new section header images.
I think it would have been interesting to mention the makeup of the field overall, and the influence of last week's Building on a Budget column. Specifically, the most common archetype last week was Burn after it had been dying down for a while. I think this was part of the reason for Flash's resurgence.
Get an avatar please
Dang no love/recommendations for BW Ale? It's a very solid alternative to UGr thresh, although it definently does require more testing. However, to be fair, Whiffy Penguin is one of the best thresh players out there, and he accounts for a decent amount of the t8s.
My testing has shown that Elephant is actually a risk in this format. Currently, between bounce and cheap removal, Elephant represents a huge risk and potential tempo loss. Additionally, the three power one drop has been semi-replaced with Rootwalla. In more controling metas, Elephant is probably the right call however. This subsequentially means Wurm is not worth the trouble most of the time.
-Alex
Agree with the above poster. Great job! Makes me wish I knew about this site long long ago with all the great information I am reading here. not sure when started, but I am greatfull you did.
Great material , you should keep doing that metagame stats every week or so, it's really great you did it , and we ppl need something like that :)
Thanks!
Against MUC, the right game plan makes it very easy to win. I wouldn't say you can't lose, but look at my article on this site about beating MUC- Stompy is very good at doing just that.
Black based removal is more of a coin flip. Sometimes you can just overrun them before the removal matters, and sometimes they get the defensive curve you need. I find, however, that Black decks that run endgame spells like Corrupt or Consume Spirit have a better shot of beating the deck.
-Alex
I believe that a lack of color was playing doran.
I've seen a few people playing Mage in the main now, I'm not sure if this is the hot new trend now, or if it is a fad.