I'd argue a counterpoint in regards to Grim Flayer and Go For the Throat/Terminate/any point removal.
I think the deck that wants one of them, wants the other. While it seems pretty definitive that everyone sees the power of the Flayer versus control; I think another outlook could be that when combined with point removal in the mirror or vs aggro, Grim Flayer can lead to no small amount of blowouts during the combat step. The fact that this little fellow has trample, can lead to some very interesting block decisions for your opponent (Sensei think this has come up in a few of our matches) and regardless of having to one for one yourself with point removal, the trample clause will still ensure damage is dealt and value is gained off of this card's trigger. I also tend to like Go For the Throat more against aggro than cards like Chain Lightening and Dreadbore, mostly because most of the critters in 4CB styles of lists have large butts and generally foment a double or even triple block from opposing aggro critters after turning the game. When this happens Go For the Throat can protect your most relevant threats, like Siege Rhino, Anafenza, or even Sylvan Advocate. This will tend to lead to 2-1 value off of a 1-1 point removal spell--so I think it's a tough sell to discount instant speed relevance in a deck that primarily looks to win through combat damage. Certainly, it can out value through its PWs but it wins through damage at the end of the day and that means leaving the board open long enough to shut the door on opposition.
But, that leads to a greater difference in how my variants of this deck work and Stsung's works. Hers is focused more so in beating the mirror, mine is designed to beat aggro and control, because often times I feel like against midrange I'll have the time to draw the game out and find a place to force my opponent to make a mistake--if I know they're a better player than me and I'd have to face the mirror match, then I'd take her deck any day of the week. But, as she stated her deck is designed for a wider meta, mine is fairly pointed.
Not saying any of this is right, but I wanted to offer some counterpoints to card assessment and show that I don't think both of these cards can be purely assessed in a vacuum because I think they're linked through a moderate amount of synergy in how different versions of this deck are trying to win.
Another argument would be that this fellow serves nicely as a Sylvan Library that attacks and in the same matchup as Sylvan Library, tends to end the game quickly. Having to run a greater volume of instant speed removal (2 more or so) seems like a fair trade off for a card that can have the same effect vs. control, but have moderate downside vs other removal heavy decks. Plus, if I'm facing aggro or midrange and they're taking up their turn 2 or 3 to remove one of my threats, while I'm playing 4CB, I tend to be happy anyway because I don't expect I'll run out of threats, but they'll eventually run out of removal. This is also why you'll note, Stsung opts to play dismember, because she knows her deck does not want to spend so much mana on turn 3 or 4 that she can't also present a relevant threat.
This deck was built to beat Delver decks. Mono Black Control is another favorable matchup followed by Elves/Stompy and Tron. The worst matchup is Burn since if you can't hit Curse of something you will eventually die to it. You need Gurmag Angler and win the game before you die to burn spells and this enchantment I don't know the name of.
Bogles is a nightmare but I used to run edicts before and I never ran into Bogles so I didn't really care that much about that deck. Electrickery does the trick though. The matchup is not actually bad, it's more of a 50/50 matchup. You just terribly die, or win which doesn't make it enjoyable much. The 'assemble a 20 power creature' decks don't have a good matchup with this either.
Hi stsung, regarding your list (a nice one by the way), what were your 3 worst matchups you feared? And your 3 best matchups?
My guess would be (from most scary to 3rd-most scary):
WORST
1. Bogles
2. "I become the Monarch" Decks
3. Burn
BEST
1. Mono Black Control (I don't see how MBC could possibly win against you except in cases of extreme mana troubles or extreme luck-sacking with multiple and timely discard spells in a row)
2. Midnight Guard Combo (this includes all similar fragile glass cannon combo decks that rely on creatures for their combo)
3. Turbo Fog
I sold out 5 years ago when I was running 6 bots. Looks like a ton has changed. I was going to come back and start playing and run bots again because I have some free time again. Everything has me on edge.
I honestly do not play enough pauper to actually have an opinion on Dinrova Horror. I think I would play it in the Familiars deck, but other than that, I'm very comfortable maneuvering my way around a creature heavy format with a creature light control deck.
Allow me to say one or two words about UB decks in Pauper.
My first pauper deck was a UB Teachings. I love this deck but with the actual metagame is a little bit hard to play a creatureless control deck.
However, at the moment Dinrova Horror was downshifted to common I start to see many players using it in a UB deck and getting some results. The combination of Dinrova + Ghostly Flicker + Archaeomancer is fatal!
Yeah, UB comes in many flavors and I never felt that any of these flavors satisfied me so I was tinkering with Grixis because I had the same problems with UR as well. That can also go from blitz to control.
This deck doesn't feature Prohibit because that's too expensive for my liking but it's a fun deck. It just needed some mox monkeys (too expensive).
4 Augur of Bolas
2 Brainstorm
1 Capsize
4 Counterspell
1 Crypt Incursion
2 Curse of the Bloody Tome
2 Dimir Aqueduct
4 Dismal Backwater
1 Dispel
1 Electrickery
2 Essence Scatter
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Flame Slash
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Island
4 Izzet Boilerworks
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Mountain
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Swamp
4 Swiftwater Cliffs
3 Terminate
2 Think Twice
1 Whispers of the Muse
1 Curse of the Bloody Tome
1 Dispel
3 Duress
1 Electrickery
3 Gurmag Angler
2 Hydroblast
4 Pyroblast
I like seeing you get into the Pauper spirit, Josh! Dimir is a funny color combination in Pauper because there are about 4 different Dimir decks that are on various places of the Midrange / Control scale: Dimir Flicker, Dimir Alchemy, Dimir Teachings, and now Dimir Reanimator. Find the one that suits you best!
Every 3-6 months wizards does something that shakes the confidence of the populace and there is a hysterical mass selloff. Prices drop because of this and continue dropping until the sell off stops...3 mos later the prices start climbing again. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
The prices of Power have been depressed and remain depressed because of a number of factors that aren't entirely clear but mostly because Treasure Chests make them much more available than one might think based on the old posts of (ex-employee) Worth regarding giving them their due.
The duals have seen print a number of times with VMA just being the latest. Volcanic and Underground Sea sometimes get as high as 35 tix. Then they drop. Apparently speculators keep selling off when the amount gets to certain level and then the prices drop again into the low 20s.
As for others, WHICH cards are high depend a lot on what's being played.
I sold out almost 2 years ago, but I check in occasionally to look at prices cause I still have a few cards in my account. What happened? Nothing seems to be worth anything anymore. Alpha duals have never recovered from their 2014 price drop when VMA came out. Some early Modern cards like from Mirrodin and Kamagawa block are under $1 when they used to be close to $10. I guess I'm glad I sold out when I did. Is MTGO having a dry spell?
If you're running sufficient white and colourless walkers, Djeru, With Eyes Open is an excellent tutor, not to mention Call, and Deploy, the Gatewatch.
Yeah, I can understand that. I'd be very happy to see Flayer against your deck^_~.
BTW I had a funny moment in one of my 100cs matches lately. I equipped Spirit of the Labyrinth with Sword of Fire and Ice which was very cool since my opponent was on Burn and I presented a very fast unblockable clock. Not being able to draw a card though felt terrible :-/
Kindly noted, thanks for the explanation, makes sense. I guess my opinion is based on what I fear more. I always fear Grim Flayer from across the table more than Sylvan Advocate, but that's because I don't play aggressive decks.
It feels so punishing to be hit even once by the Flayer. We all know that feeling. It's like a "Sword of Fire and Ice" moment or a "Sword of Feast and Famine" moment - when it's happening to you, you know that something is going horribly wrong for you, and a foreboding of worse things to come! :)
Grim Flayer is a strange card much like Sylvan Library in this deck. This card is crazy good against control and it alone can simply win the game. Against creature decks though, it's not that great. I often had to attack in a very strange way and trample through to be able to use the Flayer's ability at least once. It is true that in some cases that 1 trigger of it was all was needed. Unfortunately the card is often 2/2 when you need a 4 toughness creature or at least 3 toughness creature. In German Highlander Grim Flayer is rather a card to be cut. In CSM it really depends on what you run into. I don't think it is wrong to have it in your 75 cards.
I would not compare Sylvan Advocate to Grim Flayer because each card fills a different role. I still have more use for Sylvan Advocate than Grim Flayer though.
From my point of view Grim Flayer is the better card but its versatility in the format is quite low while Sylvan Advocate can stop (slow down) an aggressive deck and is a fine attacker. Nothing less, nothing more. With more lands in play it becomes a powerful two drop. Grim Flayer is more often a 2/2 but against WW decks or RDW it's just bad. I was boarding out this card relatively often.
I never felt the need for Go for the Throat. I need an edge against control decks (Grim Flayer is good against white-based control decks but not really against BUG/Grixis or Izzet control decks) and additional removal is something I'd rather avoid. Against decks it would be fine I can usually win by having more efficient creatures or planeswalkers. I'd run Golgari Charm over that card for example.
All this is also based on the fact that my deck is prepared for a wider meta and the fact that I like to have possibilities and answers even in rather aggressive deck.
You definitely should. Beats doing nothing. :D
I'd argue a counterpoint in regards to Grim Flayer and Go For the Throat/Terminate/any point removal.
I think the deck that wants one of them, wants the other. While it seems pretty definitive that everyone sees the power of the Flayer versus control; I think another outlook could be that when combined with point removal in the mirror or vs aggro, Grim Flayer can lead to no small amount of blowouts during the combat step. The fact that this little fellow has trample, can lead to some very interesting block decisions for your opponent (Sensei think this has come up in a few of our matches) and regardless of having to one for one yourself with point removal, the trample clause will still ensure damage is dealt and value is gained off of this card's trigger. I also tend to like Go For the Throat more against aggro than cards like Chain Lightening and Dreadbore, mostly because most of the critters in 4CB styles of lists have large butts and generally foment a double or even triple block from opposing aggro critters after turning the game. When this happens Go For the Throat can protect your most relevant threats, like Siege Rhino, Anafenza, or even Sylvan Advocate. This will tend to lead to 2-1 value off of a 1-1 point removal spell--so I think it's a tough sell to discount instant speed relevance in a deck that primarily looks to win through combat damage. Certainly, it can out value through its PWs but it wins through damage at the end of the day and that means leaving the board open long enough to shut the door on opposition.
But, that leads to a greater difference in how my variants of this deck work and Stsung's works. Hers is focused more so in beating the mirror, mine is designed to beat aggro and control, because often times I feel like against midrange I'll have the time to draw the game out and find a place to force my opponent to make a mistake--if I know they're a better player than me and I'd have to face the mirror match, then I'd take her deck any day of the week. But, as she stated her deck is designed for a wider meta, mine is fairly pointed.
Not saying any of this is right, but I wanted to offer some counterpoints to card assessment and show that I don't think both of these cards can be purely assessed in a vacuum because I think they're linked through a moderate amount of synergy in how different versions of this deck are trying to win.
Another argument would be that this fellow serves nicely as a Sylvan Library that attacks and in the same matchup as Sylvan Library, tends to end the game quickly. Having to run a greater volume of instant speed removal (2 more or so) seems like a fair trade off for a card that can have the same effect vs. control, but have moderate downside vs other removal heavy decks. Plus, if I'm facing aggro or midrange and they're taking up their turn 2 or 3 to remove one of my threats, while I'm playing 4CB, I tend to be happy anyway because I don't expect I'll run out of threats, but they'll eventually run out of removal. This is also why you'll note, Stsung opts to play dismember, because she knows her deck does not want to spend so much mana on turn 3 or 4 that she can't also present a relevant threat.
This deck was built to beat Delver decks. Mono Black Control is another favorable matchup followed by Elves/Stompy and Tron. The worst matchup is Burn since if you can't hit Curse of something you will eventually die to it. You need Gurmag Angler and win the game before you die to burn spells and this enchantment I don't know the name of.
Bogles is a nightmare but I used to run edicts before and I never ran into Bogles so I didn't really care that much about that deck. Electrickery does the trick though. The matchup is not actually bad, it's more of a 50/50 matchup. You just terribly die, or win which doesn't make it enjoyable much. The 'assemble a 20 power creature' decks don't have a good matchup with this either.
Hi stsung, regarding your list (a nice one by the way), what were your 3 worst matchups you feared? And your 3 best matchups?
My guess would be (from most scary to 3rd-most scary):
WORST
1. Bogles
2. "I become the Monarch" Decks
3. Burn
BEST
1. Mono Black Control (I don't see how MBC could possibly win against you except in cases of extreme mana troubles or extreme luck-sacking with multiple and timely discard spells in a row)
2. Midnight Guard Combo (this includes all similar fragile glass cannon combo decks that rely on creatures for their combo)
3. Turbo Fog
Were my guesses accurate? Interested to hear.
I sold out 5 years ago when I was running 6 bots. Looks like a ton has changed. I was going to come back and start playing and run bots again because I have some free time again. Everything has me on edge.
Oh I like your list!
I honestly do not play enough pauper to actually have an opinion on Dinrova Horror. I think I would play it in the Familiars deck, but other than that, I'm very comfortable maneuvering my way around a creature heavy format with a creature light control deck.
That is a wealth of knowledge! Thank you :)
Thanks AJ!
Hello there!
Allow me to say one or two words about UB decks in Pauper.
My first pauper deck was a UB Teachings. I love this deck but with the actual metagame is a little bit hard to play a creatureless control deck.
However, at the moment Dinrova Horror was downshifted to common I start to see many players using it in a UB deck and getting some results. The combination of Dinrova + Ghostly Flicker + Archaeomancer is fatal!
What do you think about it?
Yeah, UB comes in many flavors and I never felt that any of these flavors satisfied me so I was tinkering with Grixis because I had the same problems with UR as well. That can also go from blitz to control.
This deck doesn't feature Prohibit because that's too expensive for my liking but it's a fun deck. It just needed some mox monkeys (too expensive).
4 Augur of Bolas
2 Brainstorm
1 Capsize
4 Counterspell
1 Crypt Incursion
2 Curse of the Bloody Tome
2 Dimir Aqueduct
4 Dismal Backwater
1 Dispel
1 Electrickery
2 Essence Scatter
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Flame Slash
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Island
4 Izzet Boilerworks
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Mountain
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Swamp
4 Swiftwater Cliffs
3 Terminate
2 Think Twice
1 Whispers of the Muse
1 Curse of the Bloody Tome
1 Dispel
3 Duress
1 Electrickery
3 Gurmag Angler
2 Hydroblast
4 Pyroblast
Pauper is weird to me, because I go from enjoying it to avoiding it like the plague at the drop of a hat.
I like seeing you get into the Pauper spirit, Josh! Dimir is a funny color combination in Pauper because there are about 4 different Dimir decks that are on various places of the Midrange / Control scale: Dimir Flicker, Dimir Alchemy, Dimir Teachings, and now Dimir Reanimator. Find the one that suits you best!
Every 3-6 months wizards does something that shakes the confidence of the populace and there is a hysterical mass selloff. Prices drop because of this and continue dropping until the sell off stops...3 mos later the prices start climbing again. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.
The prices of Power have been depressed and remain depressed because of a number of factors that aren't entirely clear but mostly because Treasure Chests make them much more available than one might think based on the old posts of (ex-employee) Worth regarding giving them their due.
The duals have seen print a number of times with VMA just being the latest. Volcanic and Underground Sea sometimes get as high as 35 tix. Then they drop. Apparently speculators keep selling off when the amount gets to certain level and then the prices drop again into the low 20s.
As for others, WHICH cards are high depend a lot on what's being played.
I sold out almost 2 years ago, but I check in occasionally to look at prices cause I still have a few cards in my account. What happened? Nothing seems to be worth anything anymore. Alpha duals have never recovered from their 2014 price drop when VMA came out. Some early Modern cards like from Mirrodin and Kamagawa block are under $1 when they used to be close to $10. I guess I'm glad I sold out when I did. Is MTGO having a dry spell?
And here I was hoping the blank what really matters was a philosophical point....
I should note that MTGO deleted the Admiral deck AGAIN after the show. :) Fun times.
Nothing really matters ;)
oops. my mistake^_^. *facepalm*.
Agreed.
*in your 115
I agree with you about GFtT. Like you said, I'd play Golgari Charm or even Chain Lightning/Dreadbore before GFtT (main)
Botanical sanctum should be on the Standard list. It is played in BUG RUG energy. Canal is only played in RUG
If you're running sufficient white and colourless walkers, Djeru, With Eyes Open is an excellent tutor, not to mention Call, and Deploy, the Gatewatch.
Yeah, I can understand that. I'd be very happy to see Flayer against your deck^_~.
BTW I had a funny moment in one of my 100cs matches lately. I equipped Spirit of the Labyrinth with Sword of Fire and Ice which was very cool since my opponent was on Burn and I presented a very fast unblockable clock. Not being able to draw a card though felt terrible :-/
Kindly noted, thanks for the explanation, makes sense. I guess my opinion is based on what I fear more. I always fear Grim Flayer from across the table more than Sylvan Advocate, but that's because I don't play aggressive decks.
It feels so punishing to be hit even once by the Flayer. We all know that feeling. It's like a "Sword of Fire and Ice" moment or a "Sword of Feast and Famine" moment - when it's happening to you, you know that something is going horribly wrong for you, and a foreboding of worse things to come! :)
Hello Michelle,
thank you for reading.
Grim Flayer is a strange card much like Sylvan Library in this deck. This card is crazy good against control and it alone can simply win the game. Against creature decks though, it's not that great. I often had to attack in a very strange way and trample through to be able to use the Flayer's ability at least once. It is true that in some cases that 1 trigger of it was all was needed. Unfortunately the card is often 2/2 when you need a 4 toughness creature or at least 3 toughness creature. In German Highlander Grim Flayer is rather a card to be cut. In CSM it really depends on what you run into. I don't think it is wrong to have it in your 75 cards.
I would not compare Sylvan Advocate to Grim Flayer because each card fills a different role. I still have more use for Sylvan Advocate than Grim Flayer though.
From my point of view Grim Flayer is the better card but its versatility in the format is quite low while Sylvan Advocate can stop (slow down) an aggressive deck and is a fine attacker. Nothing less, nothing more. With more lands in play it becomes a powerful two drop. Grim Flayer is more often a 2/2 but against WW decks or RDW it's just bad. I was boarding out this card relatively often.
I never felt the need for Go for the Throat. I need an edge against control decks (Grim Flayer is good against white-based control decks but not really against BUG/Grixis or Izzet control decks) and additional removal is something I'd rather avoid. Against decks it would be fine I can usually win by having more efficient creatures or planeswalkers. I'd run Golgari Charm over that card for example.
All this is also based on the fact that my deck is prepared for a wider meta and the fact that I like to have possibilities and answers even in rather aggressive deck.