It wasn't just the Top 8. Eldrazi was the third most successful archetype by numbers in Day 1, 31 players came playing Eldrazi and 26 of those players made Day 2 (an 81.3% conversion rate - the best of any deck). Only Affinity and Burn put more players into Day 2 with a far worse conversion rate.
Also, LSV said that of all the players on his team's Colourless Eldrazi deck 50% made the Top 25. Eldrazi domination wasn't just the story of the Top 8 but the story of the whole Pro Tour.
That kind of dominance signals to me that there aren't a lot of 'things that beat it already'.
Completely agree. First time ever a Pro Tour format where lightning bolt was legal there were zero copies in the top 8. The thing about Eldrazi wasn't that it took the field by surprise, its conversion rate to day 2 and top 8 is greater than any other deck in pro tour history. All of the pros knew about the deck too - evident by the Affinity Afficionados who were both active in their respective teams but also set on playing Affinity.
Having played against the deck a bit online and seeing a huge *volume* of WTB adds for Eldrazi pieces, I think the reaction is warranted. Sure let it have its time in the sun and see how the meta reacts - much like Treasure Cruise.
It must be stressed that there is a fundamental difference with this sort of interaction - the fact is that what it is doing is more broken than plenty of other mana accelerants that have been banned - Seething Song & Summer Bloom can be interacted with from broad answers like counter spells and discard spells. Eldrazi Temple is similar to Cloud Post, but Eye of Ugin is unique in the way it discounts mana costs. 7 x 2 power creature on turn 1 is possible. 2 x 3 cmc creatures on turn 2, 4 x 3 cmc creatures on turn 3 etc.
Watching the CFB 'What if?' vs videos shows that Eldrazi is on a similar level to Amulet Bloom, but is far less complex to play, can't lose the game to pact triggers and has far more redundancy simply because it plays so many creatures.
There will be unconventional ways to combat this and archetypes that shift up in the meta - Merfolk, GW hatebears etc, but a huge number of decks could be entirely invalidated.
I am eagerly awaiting the results of the 3 x Modern Grand Prix in March. That will determine *when* 1 or both of the lands get banned.
Had Black and Rogers had better limited records, the top eight would have included lantern and GW chord combo. Both decks are outstanding not only against the field but against Eldrazi as well. That would also drop the numbers of Eldrazi in the top eight.
It's not a big deal :D We're not gonna have to run Painter's Servants or Blood Moons (but will because Blood Moon is already great!)
I disagree with your assessment of the format, as I have expressed in my own article.
A deck doesn't dominate a Pro Tour, with the best players in the world present, through mere surprise factor or simply because it was played by good players (otherwise I think we would see a lot more results like this). The deck dominated the Pro Tour like no other deck has in a previous Modern Pro Tour (or most Standard Pro Tours frankly). Eldrazi isn't just Top Tier it is the dominant deck in the new format.
Will the format adapt to Eldrazi being the dominant deck in the format? Of course it will. However, if you are forced into playing Blood Moon or Painter's Servant decks to be successful then the format is not adapting but being heavily warped in an unhealthy way (like when people played main deck Oxidize to fight Ravager Affinity). I'm sure the format will adapt in more subtle ways, like more heavily focused sideboards, but the best way to tackle Eldrazi seems to be to play a very fast Aggro deck. I think the success of Eldrazi will narrow the field rather than broaden it.
Does there need to be a ban? I would unequivocally say yes. We've seen plenty of cards be banned for a lot less and I think we will see Eldrazi continue to dominate and warp the format until a ban takes place.
Players are for sure overreacting to Eldrazi right now. They are too focused on the results of the top eight, and just miss out on things that beat it already, and are not looking outside the established stuff for answers.
You did a very good job in explaining the issues though.
I find the lists amusing and think of them as a temporary problem.
Granted they are strong, and aren't even "perfected" yet.
But, resilience is not their strong point.
I doubt there needs to be a ban for this.
I agree. The preponderance of winning Eldrazi over the weekend was almost entirely due to its surprise factor and preparedness or lack there of. The Eldrazi decks are a surprisingly competitive archetype but they are not onerously dominant. I like the RW deck at the end. Seems a little hard to push your wincon through but it is a great example of how you can run a control deck without any blue.
The goblin freeform deck reminds me of the Taroo Taroo deck that was from an article I read quite some time ago in The Duelist about the need for variance and the 4 of limit. 22 mountain 12 goblin lackey, 12 Goblin War Marshall 8 reckless abandon and 6 trumpet blast if memory serves me correctly. It would open on lackey and turn 2 would put war marshal into play then sac him to abandon making 5 1/1s in play and opponent at 15 life for casting the follow up trumpet blast.
I had 25 Dark Depths lying around from a prior investment opportunity so I thought I would put them to some good use. :) The Clerics just junk up a ground game and make sure Marit Lage connects. It was the best I could come up with on the spur of the moment, and I thought it would beat Goblins at any rate. I was pretty sure I was an underdog, though, against AJ.
Congrats to Miha and the 3 horsemen, especially Yokai for breaking through a crowd of old timers to take his place just under Miha and AJ for being the original thinking Tribal Demi God that he is.
The funny thing about baseball is that it varies depending on the situation. Sometimes a grounder is better and sometimes a bunt is more useful.
Back to the topic, I'd probably be more inclined to play Standard Pauper if current uncommons that were once common were legal, as I feel it opens up the format a bit more and increases the power level a bit without going off the deep end. A lot of the rarity shifts that go up do so for limited gameplay, not necessarily because the cards are inherently more powerful. Obviously having Rolling Thunder at common skews the limited gameplay of that set, and while yes, it is great in Classic Pauper, Standard Pauper lacks the big-mana necessary to really get it going.
Either way, it's a good discussion to have and I'm glad that the folks who support the format are having it.
I hope mpdc goes well.
As for the ratings, not wishing to appear negative, however the baseball terms are lost on me, and even after googling I'm unsure which of bunt and grounder is better. I guess a hit is a hit in any language. I suggest a score out of 5 might avoid misunderstandings.
But you will find you can't cast lightning bolt at all if your opponent has hexproof, you have shroud and he flips the morph guy he has up to reveal a sagu mauler. (Flipping a morph doesn't go on the stack.) The only opportunity to cast (and have it countered) would be if he gives priority to your bolt and then flips.
Thank you. Your illustration helped me differentiate/learn between triggered abilities and other things that typically resolve- specifically, spells cast whose target is no longer eligible. In the past, I would have thought that the +1/+1 counter on the creature was spent, much like the mana I tapped to cast, I dunno, say, Lightning Bolt. However, triggers seem more like an 'if/then' situation, which I will do well to remember. At least, if I am right? :)
This question teaches a couple things:
1) The difference between triggered and activated abilities.
2) The rule that if all targets of a spell or ability are illegal, the spell or ability is countered on resolution.
3) That if a spell or ability is countered, you don’t do any parts of its instructions. The concept of doing what you can if some – but not all – targets are removed is a different issue which may or may not come up in discussion.
4) That card wordings can be confusing.
5) That I like to tell stories.
If the judge candidate has trouble identifying triggered abilities, I will remind them that triggered abilities contain one of three words: “when,” “whenever,” or “at.” They don’t have costs. Activated abilities have costs, and usually begin [cost]: do stuff. You can recognize an activated ability by the colon. You pay all costs, then chose targets, etc., then the activated ability goes on the stack. With a triggered ability, you choose targets, modes, etc., then it goes on the stack.
As with any spell or ability, if all targets are illegal, then the spell or ability is countered on resolution (f/k/a “fizzled.”) (Another judge question involves identifying types of abilities: I lay out six cards and have judges identify the mana, loyalty, activated, triggered, static, and spell abilities, and how they know which is which.)
To get the question right, you need to understand that this is a triggered ability. Triggered abilities don’t actually do anything (except maybe target) when they go on the stack. The only do stuff when (and if) they resolve.
I mean, I kinda expect no bans, obviously. The people calling for bans by this weekend? Completely unable to exist in reality.
Everyone is gonna awfully disappointed when there are no bans right? :D
It wasn't just the Top 8. Eldrazi was the third most successful archetype by numbers in Day 1, 31 players came playing Eldrazi and 26 of those players made Day 2 (an 81.3% conversion rate - the best of any deck). Only Affinity and Burn put more players into Day 2 with a far worse conversion rate.
Also, LSV said that of all the players on his team's Colourless Eldrazi deck 50% made the Top 25. Eldrazi domination wasn't just the story of the Top 8 but the story of the whole Pro Tour.
That kind of dominance signals to me that there aren't a lot of 'things that beat it already'.
Thanks!
There were some interesting decklist deeper in the tournament information.
Completely agree. First time ever a Pro Tour format where lightning bolt was legal there were zero copies in the top 8. The thing about Eldrazi wasn't that it took the field by surprise, its conversion rate to day 2 and top 8 is greater than any other deck in pro tour history. All of the pros knew about the deck too - evident by the Affinity Afficionados who were both active in their respective teams but also set on playing Affinity.
Having played against the deck a bit online and seeing a huge *volume* of WTB adds for Eldrazi pieces, I think the reaction is warranted. Sure let it have its time in the sun and see how the meta reacts - much like Treasure Cruise.
It must be stressed that there is a fundamental difference with this sort of interaction - the fact is that what it is doing is more broken than plenty of other mana accelerants that have been banned - Seething Song & Summer Bloom can be interacted with from broad answers like counter spells and discard spells. Eldrazi Temple is similar to Cloud Post, but Eye of Ugin is unique in the way it discounts mana costs. 7 x 2 power creature on turn 1 is possible. 2 x 3 cmc creatures on turn 2, 4 x 3 cmc creatures on turn 3 etc.
Watching the CFB 'What if?' vs videos shows that Eldrazi is on a similar level to Amulet Bloom, but is far less complex to play, can't lose the game to pact triggers and has far more redundancy simply because it plays so many creatures.
There will be unconventional ways to combat this and archetypes that shift up in the meta - Merfolk, GW hatebears etc, but a huge number of decks could be entirely invalidated.
I am eagerly awaiting the results of the 3 x Modern Grand Prix in March. That will determine *when* 1 or both of the lands get banned.
Had Black and Rogers had better limited records, the top eight would have included lantern and GW chord combo. Both decks are outstanding not only against the field but against Eldrazi as well. That would also drop the numbers of Eldrazi in the top eight.
It's not a big deal :D We're not gonna have to run Painter's Servants or Blood Moons (but will because Blood Moon is already great!)
I disagree with your assessment of the format, as I have expressed in my own article.
A deck doesn't dominate a Pro Tour, with the best players in the world present, through mere surprise factor or simply because it was played by good players (otherwise I think we would see a lot more results like this). The deck dominated the Pro Tour like no other deck has in a previous Modern Pro Tour (or most Standard Pro Tours frankly). Eldrazi isn't just Top Tier it is the dominant deck in the new format.
Will the format adapt to Eldrazi being the dominant deck in the format? Of course it will. However, if you are forced into playing Blood Moon or Painter's Servant decks to be successful then the format is not adapting but being heavily warped in an unhealthy way (like when people played main deck Oxidize to fight Ravager Affinity). I'm sure the format will adapt in more subtle ways, like more heavily focused sideboards, but the best way to tackle Eldrazi seems to be to play a very fast Aggro deck. I think the success of Eldrazi will narrow the field rather than broaden it.
Does there need to be a ban? I would unequivocally say yes. We've seen plenty of cards be banned for a lot less and I think we will see Eldrazi continue to dominate and warp the format until a ban takes place.
I appreciate the lists you highlighted outside of the top 8!
Players are for sure overreacting to Eldrazi right now. They are too focused on the results of the top eight, and just miss out on things that beat it already, and are not looking outside the established stuff for answers.
You did a very good job in explaining the issues though.
I find the lists amusing and think of them as a temporary problem.
Granted they are strong, and aren't even "perfected" yet.
But, resilience is not their strong point.
I doubt there needs to be a ban for this.
I agree. The preponderance of winning Eldrazi over the weekend was almost entirely due to its surprise factor and preparedness or lack there of. The Eldrazi decks are a surprisingly competitive archetype but they are not onerously dominant. I like the RW deck at the end. Seems a little hard to push your wincon through but it is a great example of how you can run a control deck without any blue.
The goblin freeform deck reminds me of the Taroo Taroo deck that was from an article I read quite some time ago in The Duelist about the need for variance and the 4 of limit. 22 mountain 12 goblin lackey, 12 Goblin War Marshall 8 reckless abandon and 6 trumpet blast if memory serves me correctly. It would open on lackey and turn 2 would put war marshal into play then sac him to abandon making 5 1/1s in play and opponent at 15 life for casting the follow up trumpet blast.
Freeform is a format that rewards insanity and edge cases. I couldn't resist going for the single most ridiculous deck to ever win money. :)
I was pretty sure if someone was going to remember the Chancellor deck, that would be AJ. :)
I had 25 Dark Depths lying around from a prior investment opportunity so I thought I would put them to some good use. :) The Clerics just junk up a ground game and make sure Marit Lage connects. It was the best I could come up with on the spur of the moment, and I thought it would beat Goblins at any rate. I was pretty sure I was an underdog, though, against AJ.
Congrats to Miha and the 3 horsemen, especially Yokai for breaking through a crowd of old timers to take his place just under Miha and AJ for being the original thinking Tribal Demi God that he is.
The funny thing about baseball is that it varies depending on the situation. Sometimes a grounder is better and sometimes a bunt is more useful.
Back to the topic, I'd probably be more inclined to play Standard Pauper if current uncommons that were once common were legal, as I feel it opens up the format a bit more and increases the power level a bit without going off the deep end. A lot of the rarity shifts that go up do so for limited gameplay, not necessarily because the cards are inherently more powerful. Obviously having Rolling Thunder at common skews the limited gameplay of that set, and while yes, it is great in Classic Pauper, Standard Pauper lacks the big-mana necessary to really get it going.
Either way, it's a good discussion to have and I'm glad that the folks who support the format are having it.
I think it also shows that templating can make some cards unintuitive.
I hope mpdc goes well.
As for the ratings, not wishing to appear negative, however the baseball terms are lost on me, and even after googling I'm unsure which of bunt and grounder is better. I guess a hit is a hit in any language. I suggest a score out of 5 might avoid misunderstandings.
But you will find you can't cast lightning bolt at all if your opponent has hexproof, you have shroud and he flips the morph guy he has up to reveal a sagu mauler. (Flipping a morph doesn't go on the stack.) The only opportunity to cast (and have it countered) would be if he gives priority to your bolt and then flips.
Thank you. Your illustration helped me differentiate/learn between triggered abilities and other things that typically resolve- specifically, spells cast whose target is no longer eligible. In the past, I would have thought that the +1/+1 counter on the creature was spent, much like the mana I tapped to cast, I dunno, say, Lightning Bolt. However, triggers seem more like an 'if/then' situation, which I will do well to remember. At least, if I am right? :)
I am a judge and this one stumped me for longer than I would like to admit.
This question teaches a couple things:
1) The difference between triggered and activated abilities.
2) The rule that if all targets of a spell or ability are illegal, the spell or ability is countered on resolution.
3) That if a spell or ability is countered, you don’t do any parts of its instructions. The concept of doing what you can if some – but not all – targets are removed is a different issue which may or may not come up in discussion.
4) That card wordings can be confusing.
5) That I like to tell stories.
If the judge candidate has trouble identifying triggered abilities, I will remind them that triggered abilities contain one of three words: “when,” “whenever,” or “at.” They don’t have costs. Activated abilities have costs, and usually begin [cost]: do stuff. You can recognize an activated ability by the colon. You pay all costs, then chose targets, etc., then the activated ability goes on the stack. With a triggered ability, you choose targets, modes, etc., then it goes on the stack.
As with any spell or ability, if all targets are illegal, then the spell or ability is countered on resolution (f/k/a “fizzled.”) (Another judge question involves identifying types of abilities: I lay out six cards and have judges identify the mana, loyalty, activated, triggered, static, and spell abilities, and how they know which is which.)
To get the question right, you need to understand that this is a triggered ability. Triggered abilities don’t actually do anything (except maybe target) when they go on the stack. The only do stuff when (and if) they resolve.
I see Giant are legal, did I already announce it officially? I sort of forgot about that, but I guess their re-admission was a no-brainer.