Come on, where the brewers at? Here's a nice count for somebody else to crush. It does a little ramp, a little control, gains life and has the chance of infinite counters from 2 Scalelords.
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple of Plenty
3 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Crucible of the Spirit Dragon
8 Forest
4 Plains
24 Lands
2. From what people talk, the card Delver of Secrets is not that good against many decks but it is good against Shops. So I guess that having a land that can block and trade with a flipped Delver is good enough.
I've played a fair amount of Shops decks, and though I'm certainly not as knowledgeable as the masters of the archetype I don't think they read this site so I'll try to answer as best I can.
1. This particular version, called Terra Nova, runs a much higher land count than other variants and does not contain any Forgemasters, Metalworkers, Karns or anything else that gets hosed by Null Rod. Basically it disrupts the opponent far more than itself in most matchups.
2. What TugaChampion said.
3. Ports were used in a lot of older Stax lists that sought to play a long game by establishing a hard lock via Smokestack and winning with something like Karn, Silver Golem. The recent incarnations are more tempo oriented and have replaced them with Cavern of Souls and Mishra's Factories. Port is also fairly ineffective against Bazaars and Instants.
4. I side them out against Dredge. If I do happen to draw one G1, I'll typically set the first on 1 to protect myself against Cabal Therapy, and save any others in the normally vain hope that I can throw it out on 0 to feed a Forgemaster.
Many thanks Tuga Champion for your helpful tips. I am very grateful to you. I will take all these points on board.
My comments are:
1. I am pleased that I am not the only one who thought that Chalice is a very awkward card against Dredge :)
2. I am still very surprised that Rishadan Port is not used in this Shops deck. If I were on the opposing side of a Shops player, the last thing I'd want to see is another playset of a land-destruction land, coz the opposing player will already be desperate for mana and will NOT appreciate his opponent tapping down one of his lands each turn. I find it so hard to accept that 2 x Blinkmoths are better than 2 x Rishadan Ports, although I could accept that Mishra's Factory is hard to part with, particularly since multiple copies comboes with itself and with Mutavult. Is there any Shops player out there who can guide me on this?
That all sounds about right. I've also never played against Shops. Although I did lose to a guy who countered his own sol ring with his own chalice of the void. So, they are more worried about stopping you from doing anything.
1. I have never played Shops (in fact I have only played Oath) but it's because it is so strong against some decks, that you don't mind it shutting down some of your own cards. The Moxen and Sol Ring are only there to make your deck more explosive and play more lock pieces earlier. After a few turns, you probably have enough mana from lands anyway.
2. Phyrexian Revoker can name many things. Sometimes it's a Mox on the opp's side so it acts as a pseudo Sphere but it can also shut down several things like planeswalkers (mainly Dack Fayden but also Jace), Time Vault, Griselbrand and there are probably more. And it also beats for 2 while doing that.
3. I don't know but maybe because it's not good enough disruption? at least 5 of your lands detroy their lands, Workshops can't activate it and Ancient Tomb is a pain to use Port. You do want some manlands to beat down. I have lost some games against Shops to manlands because I was able to play Oath but he refused to play creature and kept attacking and I couldn't draw Orchard on time.
4. Chalice doesn't do much against dredge. I wouldn't even bother with it, unless I couldn't do anything else. On 1 they have Misstep which doesn't really matter and Therapy which also doesn't hurt you that much since you don't have FoWs. Sometimes even the flashback sacrificing a creature to make zombies is good enough. For 0 is only hurts you and for 2 it just makes them not able to cast Narcomoeba and Bloodghast. I'd say at 1 it does something but make that play only if really needed as it's not a huge priority play. After Sideboard it's better on one because it stops Nature's Claim and other hate cards but I'm not sure if you side it out or not.
Hi Joe, I like your enthusiasm with Vintage and keep it up.
Joe, can I ask you a few questions to help a new Vintage player:
1. Why does the Shops deck above run 3 x Null Rod (when these will backfire on the Shops player by shutting down the Moxen and Sol Ring of the Shops player)?
2. Why is Phyrexian Revoker in Shops? (Do you know what it is mainly used to target? Would it usually be the Mox or Sol Ring that the other player might have on the battlefield)?
3. Why does Shops not run Rishadan Port? (Wouldn't a playset of Rishadan be superior to 2 x Blinkmoth and 2 x Mishra's Factory for example)?
4. If a Shops player is playing against Dredge, what mana cost would you recommend choosing for the Chalice of the Void (0, 1, or 2?)
Yeah that is mostly true. Very rarely games are won on turn 1, although that number increases if you count Shops locking you out of the game on turn 1 on the play or even something like Oath + Orchard. The majority of the games still don't go that way.
I don't really count Dredge on those because they will have Bazaar turn 1 over 90% of the time but it's a deck that you can have a very good match up post sideboard if you want.
And even playing with 4 Ghost Quarters instead of 4 Wastelands doesn't make your deck much worse.
I'm playing Oath so I have a good match up against Shops, but it's still very important to win the roll because the games on the draw are always difficult.
Some people say they don't like Vintage because of turn 1 wins or because sometimes one player chains restricted card into restricted card. In my opinion this is flawed logic. I think most who say this haven't played Vintage at all, or don't have much experience with it. There are busted draws in every format, they are even more busted in Vintage so it seems more unfair. Also there are many games in other formats that are basically over on turn 1 but the players don't know it (especially the one that will lose) because they can't see each other hands. But in those formats you get the illusion that you had a chance, that you actually played a game when in fact it was lost from the start.
And yes, Vintage is certainly the most fun I've had playing Magic, at least constructed Magic.
Awesome value in Modern for sure where your four mana spell had better buy you something up front. It's not so much that I'm saying no one is playing it. I'm saying it's not the same 'play Rhino, win' card that it used to be. Remember it was so hard to get rid of this creature after KTK launched. Now there are not only tools to easily remove him, but creatures on par with him. Maybe not in the 4 drop spot, but the format is so over the top slow 5, 6 and even 7 drops are commonly hitting the battlefield.
Weird data. I have not fought against any BG in my drafts. My only 2 8-4 wins came from a Mardu deck. Warrior build to be specific. I only play BG when i get assault formation.
Yeah, I noticed the Slice and Dice after I posted my comment. You did use it on me in one of the games, and I was like, "Ha, I'll just counter tha...Oh wait, he cycled it. Damn."
"Sacrifice Siege Rhino. Opponent discards a removal spell." Yeah, you said it all right there. I don't play Standard, but I'm surprised you say people aren't playing him anymore. In Modern I think he is still a boss. A Lightning Helix plus a beater in one card. At his worst he is a sponge for a removal spell.
I had one Slice and Dice for that, which would have turned the match around had I drawn it.
You can't counter its cycling ability with conventional means, so it wipes their board, cantrips, and does so as an uncounterable instant. It's sweet when you draw it.
You have 2 SB slots open, I wonder if a couple of pyroclasms in the board would help in your delver match up ... it will wipe the board of all but you Mentors (prowess trigger saves it).
Awesome. I feel if you can go 3-1 in Vintage than that must be like going 4-0 in any other format. Vintage just seems hard to me and the competition is so high. Do you know why you're losing to Delver? I could be wrong but it seems like it's your toughest match up, besides Workshops, of course. Would something like Electrickery or Scouring Sands be an option for you against all those 1/1's?
Sounds good. I cashed the Friday night Vintage daily event with that list. I think it's in a good spot, since I beat 2 other Mentor decks, and a Dredge deck. I lost to Delver, but I played well at least.
Yeah, I hope they sort that one out too. It has been a real pain for me - particularly when I was trying to do my Grixis Delver article. At the moment I'm just avoiding writing articles about decks with Electrolyze in but really hope they sort it.
Besides,watches can be acclimated during abounding added memorable cultural contest and shows for http://www.kreatepromotions.co.uk archetype altogether parties,Christmas ceremonies,Valentine's Day,accord day,galas,ball events,music concerts,candid matches,football matches,and so on.Therefore one has to say that affected watches are eatured actualization watches? Do you instantly wish to grab a acclaimed cast watch? If yes,again amuse buy Breitling Watches because they are one of the a lot of http://www.makingartwork.co.uk admirable and avant-garde watches in the common watch bazaar a lot of recently.
Thanks for showing off the Mentor list, Joe. I now know all your secrets, mwahahaha. But honestly, we need to battle it out again soon. If the Vintage lobby is ever dry and you're dying to play, just shoot me a pm or a challenge.
Yup. Monuments count!
Thank you, the Kids aren't alright.
This is very helpful, I appreciate all your comments and thoughts.
Come on, where the brewers at? Here's a nice count for somebody else to crush. It does a little ramp, a little control, gains life and has the chance of infinite counters from 2 Scalelords.
4 Windswept Heath
4 Temple of Plenty
3 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Crucible of the Spirit Dragon
8 Forest
4 Plains
24 Lands
4 Sylvan Caryatid
2 Nyx Fleece Ram
4 Orator of Ojutai
3 Dromoka, the Eternal
3 Dragonlord Dromoka
3 Enduring Scalelord
1 Foe-Razer Regent
20 creatures
4 Assault Formation
4 Frontier Siege
3 Dromoka Monument
2 Banishing Light
1 Citadel Siege
2 End Hostilities
16 Non-Creatures
DCT = 21 (counting the monuments since they turn into dragons)
Happy to have helped.
2. From what people talk, the card Delver of Secrets is not that good against many decks but it is good against Shops. So I guess that having a land that can block and trade with a flipped Delver is good enough.
I've played a fair amount of Shops decks, and though I'm certainly not as knowledgeable as the masters of the archetype I don't think they read this site so I'll try to answer as best I can.
1. This particular version, called Terra Nova, runs a much higher land count than other variants and does not contain any Forgemasters, Metalworkers, Karns or anything else that gets hosed by Null Rod. Basically it disrupts the opponent far more than itself in most matchups.
2. What TugaChampion said.
3. Ports were used in a lot of older Stax lists that sought to play a long game by establishing a hard lock via Smokestack and winning with something like Karn, Silver Golem. The recent incarnations are more tempo oriented and have replaced them with Cavern of Souls and Mishra's Factories. Port is also fairly ineffective against Bazaars and Instants.
4. I side them out against Dredge. If I do happen to draw one G1, I'll typically set the first on 1 to protect myself against Cabal Therapy, and save any others in the normally vain hope that I can throw it out on 0 to feed a Forgemaster.
Many thanks Tuga Champion for your helpful tips. I am very grateful to you. I will take all these points on board.
My comments are:
1. I am pleased that I am not the only one who thought that Chalice is a very awkward card against Dredge :)
2. I am still very surprised that Rishadan Port is not used in this Shops deck. If I were on the opposing side of a Shops player, the last thing I'd want to see is another playset of a land-destruction land, coz the opposing player will already be desperate for mana and will NOT appreciate his opponent tapping down one of his lands each turn. I find it so hard to accept that 2 x Blinkmoths are better than 2 x Rishadan Ports, although I could accept that Mishra's Factory is hard to part with, particularly since multiple copies comboes with itself and with Mutavult. Is there any Shops player out there who can guide me on this?
That all sounds about right. I've also never played against Shops. Although I did lose to a guy who countered his own sol ring with his own chalice of the void. So, they are more worried about stopping you from doing anything.
I'll try to answer these the best I can.
1. I have never played Shops (in fact I have only played Oath) but it's because it is so strong against some decks, that you don't mind it shutting down some of your own cards. The Moxen and Sol Ring are only there to make your deck more explosive and play more lock pieces earlier. After a few turns, you probably have enough mana from lands anyway.
2. Phyrexian Revoker can name many things. Sometimes it's a Mox on the opp's side so it acts as a pseudo Sphere but it can also shut down several things like planeswalkers (mainly Dack Fayden but also Jace), Time Vault, Griselbrand and there are probably more. And it also beats for 2 while doing that.
3. I don't know but maybe because it's not good enough disruption? at least 5 of your lands detroy their lands, Workshops can't activate it and Ancient Tomb is a pain to use Port. You do want some manlands to beat down. I have lost some games against Shops to manlands because I was able to play Oath but he refused to play creature and kept attacking and I couldn't draw Orchard on time.
4. Chalice doesn't do much against dredge. I wouldn't even bother with it, unless I couldn't do anything else. On 1 they have Misstep which doesn't really matter and Therapy which also doesn't hurt you that much since you don't have FoWs. Sometimes even the flashback sacrificing a creature to make zombies is good enough. For 0 is only hurts you and for 2 it just makes them not able to cast Narcomoeba and Bloodghast. I'd say at 1 it does something but make that play only if really needed as it's not a huge priority play. After Sideboard it's better on one because it stops Nature's Claim and other hate cards but I'm not sure if you side it out or not.
Great Article.
Hi Joe, I like your enthusiasm with Vintage and keep it up.
Joe, can I ask you a few questions to help a new Vintage player:
1. Why does the Shops deck above run 3 x Null Rod (when these will backfire on the Shops player by shutting down the Moxen and Sol Ring of the Shops player)?
2. Why is Phyrexian Revoker in Shops? (Do you know what it is mainly used to target? Would it usually be the Mox or Sol Ring that the other player might have on the battlefield)?
3. Why does Shops not run Rishadan Port? (Wouldn't a playset of Rishadan be superior to 2 x Blinkmoth and 2 x Mishra's Factory for example)?
4. If a Shops player is playing against Dredge, what mana cost would you recommend choosing for the Chalice of the Void (0, 1, or 2?)
Thanks
I agree with all of that!
Well scratch that idea then...
Yeah that is mostly true. Very rarely games are won on turn 1, although that number increases if you count Shops locking you out of the game on turn 1 on the play or even something like Oath + Orchard. The majority of the games still don't go that way.
I don't really count Dredge on those because they will have Bazaar turn 1 over 90% of the time but it's a deck that you can have a very good match up post sideboard if you want.
And even playing with 4 Ghost Quarters instead of 4 Wastelands doesn't make your deck much worse.
I'm playing Oath so I have a good match up against Shops, but it's still very important to win the roll because the games on the draw are always difficult.
Some people say they don't like Vintage because of turn 1 wins or because sometimes one player chains restricted card into restricted card. In my opinion this is flawed logic. I think most who say this haven't played Vintage at all, or don't have much experience with it. There are busted draws in every format, they are even more busted in Vintage so it seems more unfair. Also there are many games in other formats that are basically over on turn 1 but the players don't know it (especially the one that will lose) because they can't see each other hands. But in those formats you get the illusion that you had a chance, that you actually played a game when in fact it was lost from the start.
And yes, Vintage is certainly the most fun I've had playing Magic, at least constructed Magic.
So far I'm winning the contest. I'm adding a caveat. There must be at least two contestants for the competition to pay out.
Awesome value in Modern for sure where your four mana spell had better buy you something up front. It's not so much that I'm saying no one is playing it. I'm saying it's not the same 'play Rhino, win' card that it used to be. Remember it was so hard to get rid of this creature after KTK launched. Now there are not only tools to easily remove him, but creatures on par with him. Maybe not in the 4 drop spot, but the format is so over the top slow 5, 6 and even 7 drops are commonly hitting the battlefield.
Weird data. I have not fought against any BG in my drafts. My only 2 8-4 wins came from a Mardu deck. Warrior build to be specific. I only play BG when i get assault formation.
Yeah, I noticed the Slice and Dice after I posted my comment. You did use it on me in one of the games, and I was like, "Ha, I'll just counter tha...Oh wait, he cycled it. Damn."
"Sacrifice Siege Rhino. Opponent discards a removal spell." Yeah, you said it all right there. I don't play Standard, but I'm surprised you say people aren't playing him anymore. In Modern I think he is still a boss. A Lightning Helix plus a beater in one card. At his worst he is a sponge for a removal spell.
I had one Slice and Dice for that, which would have turned the match around had I drawn it.
You can't counter its cycling ability with conventional means, so it wipes their board, cantrips, and does so as an uncounterable instant. It's sweet when you draw it.
Pyroclasm is also a good idea potentially.
oops! The two slots are supposed to be Containment Priest! Since the site doesn't recognize those cards yet, it must not have added them.
You have 2 SB slots open, I wonder if a couple of pyroclasms in the board would help in your delver match up ... it will wipe the board of all but you Mentors (prowess trigger saves it).
Awesome. I feel if you can go 3-1 in Vintage than that must be like going 4-0 in any other format. Vintage just seems hard to me and the competition is so high. Do you know why you're losing to Delver? I could be wrong but it seems like it's your toughest match up, besides Workshops, of course. Would something like Electrickery or Scouring Sands be an option for you against all those 1/1's?
Sounds good. I cashed the Friday night Vintage daily event with that list. I think it's in a good spot, since I beat 2 other Mentor decks, and a Dredge deck. I lost to Delver, but I played well at least.
Yeah, I hope they sort that one out too. It has been a real pain for me - particularly when I was trying to do my Grixis Delver article. At the moment I'm just avoiding writing articles about decks with Electrolyze in but really hope they sort it.
Besides,watches can be acclimated during abounding added memorable cultural contest and shows for http://www.kreatepromotions.co.uk archetype altogether parties,Christmas ceremonies,Valentine's Day,accord day,galas,ball events,music concerts,candid matches,football matches,and so on.Therefore one has to say that affected watches are eatured actualization watches? Do you instantly wish to grab a acclaimed cast watch? If yes,again amuse buy Breitling Watches because they are one of the a lot of http://www.makingartwork.co.uk admirable and avant-garde watches in the common watch bazaar a lot of recently.
Thanks for showing off the Mentor list, Joe. I now know all your secrets, mwahahaha. But honestly, we need to battle it out again soon. If the Vintage lobby is ever dry and you're dying to play, just shoot me a pm or a challenge.