It's no wonder that's the winning deck. The first few cards alone are just enough to make you scared in the middle of the game. Strategy still plays a major part in it though. - Trident University
Still, writing that " major bot chains discuss shutting down" suggest to me that they choose between shutting down or keep on running. I guess that V4-ready bots will continue running (if they exist?). All other bots will naturally not be running. Not much of a choise?
V4 is in beta and still changing so it is no surprise that bots are not V4 ready.
I hope that you are able to make a good V4 bot quickly. I like bots.
I'm sure there are a lot of other problems with v4 but this is my main gripe. I can't understand how on v3 I can see my hand, the majority of each graveyard, have clear pop-up windows for the Exiled pile and any Revealed Cards, the stack has it's own always-open area and I have a card preview in the top left that is always open while on v4 I have none of these things and the battlefield still manages to be irritatingly small.
I only play on my laptop as I don't have a desktop and I have a 15.6" screen. I know this isn't the largest screen available but it works fine with v3 and I can't see why it should work just as well with v4. I don't know what they are doing with the space but on screens like mine it is certainly not being used efficiently.
Hey Montolio, I never put together the video / article for our match from my point of view. Probably the moment has passed now. Glad you were recording, too!
Seriously. I think this is my biggest complaint about the entire new version. I literally cannot believe that they waste SO MUCH screen space in v4 on useless crap.
My list is below. I believe 2 is supposed to be fixed in v4. 3 is currently fixed, but then they mess it up again and again.
1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events.
2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts.
3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible.
4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly!
5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper
6: Power 9!
7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic)
8: Program Split option back in!
9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp)
10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor.
11: Bring leagues Back!
There are some bots for v4 already developed and running, they most certainly will continue to do so during v3's downtime. I won't name names, it will be easy to find them during said downtime.
As a bot developer, I can agree with what he says. V4 is buggy and inconsistent, trying to deal with all the issues has slowed development down massively.
The way Pete writes it, it sounds like the major bot chains choose to shut down during the two days V3 is turned off. And this is presumably because trading is "unstable" in V4 right now.
Is this really true?
I just thought the dealers had not yet programmed the bots to V4, so that they really do not have a choice in shutting down or not?
If this is the case then it is a bit harsh to say that: "Shiny simply does not handle trades well enough. The crashes, bugs and problems are bad enough that most of the dealers recommend that users reinstall v3 to complete trades.".
Sigil of Sleep is sick. I was on its receiving end a lot during the UD release events, but sadly didn't come up with a strategy such as yours. Which is a shame, too, because I used to play with the Osprey and the Metathran A LOT back in the simpler times of 1999.
As for Immortal Servitude.decs they are ubiquitous and vary a bit in particulars but you can always tell them by their many sac outlets and ways to discard or otherwise mass-selfmill. And draw mechanisms (like those mentioned cards make sense to add in if possible in the target CMC.) The two slot has some interesting possibilities including Blood Artist, Cartel Aristocrat, Thalia etc. But the Three Slot has even better choices I think with Malcontents, undercity informer, Biovisionarys, Splinterfright, etc.
I've already extensively posted my opinions on the Beta stuff in the forums so Ill just leave that there. most of the other news isn't particularly of interest to me but I can see some of it having a large impact on the community in general.
The idea that 70% of those who tried V4 stuck with it can't be true. I haven't heard a single positive thing about V4 from any of the writers who have tried it. Pete here has been more charitable and forgiving than most, but even he treats using it like learning a highly unnecessary foreign language. Even accounting for the fact that people who don't like it will be more vocal, the 70% figure just can't be correct.
From the screenshots and videos I've seen, the appearance of V4 looks like they're trying to make it more appealing to newbies transitioning from DotP. Maybe they think that's good enough for business (DotP was obviously pretty good for paper magic's sales) that they're willing to alienate all current players and figure "well they'll just have to learn to suffer through it, where else are they gonna go?"
All I know is that V4 is completely unnecessary, and nobody wants it, so the move to switch people over must be driven by a desire to appeal to people who aren't presently using MTGO.
I feel sorry for Ryan Spain, being forced to shill for this crappy product in order to keep what he expected to be his dream job.
Infinite players do make profit for Wizards. Stop spreading this fallacy. I'll explain starting with the two false models.
Model 1: Each queue makes an average of X dollars profit for Wizards, so regardless of who wins what, they want more people to play to fire as many queues as possible regardless of who wins what. Each player in an 8 man queue is responsible for 1/8 of the profit.
Error: But what if when some winners take packs instead of some losers, the losers no longer have the resources to pay to play, so more queues today sometimes means fewer queues tomorrow.
Model 2: Ultimately, only players who purchase directly from the store make profit for Wizards.
Error: But what drives the need for purchasing from the store? Loss. Who delivers loss? The winners. Every time a player causes another player to make a purchase at the store that they would not make if they had won their match, the winner of the match is causing a profit for Wizards. The only time infinite players do not make profit for WotC is when they knock out a player who is not willing to spend any more money, otherwise they are forcing people to spend more.
That final part about players' budgets is important. There are hypothetical player populations that make free-rolling players scorned because everyone has a very small fixed amount of money they can spend. There are also populations where the players mostly decide to keep playing no matter what, money be damned, the free-rollers profiting the company to the fullest. The reality is somewhere in this range.
Now ask yourself, what do you see more, stingy players who stick to a strict budget no matter what, or loose players who keep playing in spite of losing, the type of player who plans to play X times a month rather than pay Y dollars per month.
WotC would never tell free-rollers to stop playing because they do contribute to profit, though it's difficult to put a number on how much. In the worst case, the winners act to extract as much money from the losers as they were going to pay, often hastening the process and ensuring its completion. At best, they are extracting more, from the players who never meet their bounds of budget and will pay as much as they lose.
My most successful draft format ever, and an experience similar as yours with triple SHM, was triple Urza's Destiny. I think I won about 10 UD-UD-UD drafts IN A ROW (and I'm not even a good drafter usually), by going monoblue and taking as many Sigil of Sleep, Metathran Soldier and Fledging Osprey as possible. Nobody was doing that, and the set was small enough that over the course of the 3 boosters you could collect up to 5 or 6 copies of each (that's the first time I even realized Limited doesn't use the "4 copies per deck" rule.) Turn-1 Osprey into Turn-2 Sigil, or Turn-2 Metathran into Turn-3 Sigil was game over 90% of the times, given the scarcity of serious removals. People kept losing to it, yet I never met anybody else who drafted the same cards. Good times.
I have a theory (that maybe I'll flesh out in an article at some point) where the MTG blocks are proceeding in a 7-year cycle. After the "Ancient Age" (or Ancient Age plus Middle Age, if you consider the Dark/Homeland/Alliances as the lowest point in MTG history), the first cycle started with Mirage, which is when organized play and a more clear "we know what we're doing" feel originated (so Renaissance Age?) Mirage to Onslaught are 7 blocks. Then the Modern Age starts.
We have 1. Mirrodin (artifact block), 2. Kamigawa (heavily flavored, underpowerd, top-down design block), 3. Ravnica (multicolored block), 4. Time Spiral (experimental/return to Dominaria block), 5. Lorwyn/Shadowmoor (tribal block), 6. Alara (differently multicolored block), 7. Zendikar.
Then the third cycle is having:
1. Return to Mirrodin
2. Return to a top-down, flavorful block
3. Return to Ravnica
I don't know if the next one will be something comparable to Time Spiral (which maybe is meant to remain unique in MTG history), but so far it works. Of the three remaining blocks/planes, I think I'd like a return to Lorwyn the most, but I don't know if the story allows it.
(Double post)
Have either of you tried the latest build? I'm pretty sure they fixed these issues.
The winners are really awesome. I've never seen the game as fast as this one though. It's really amazing. - Michael Courouleau
It's no wonder that's the winning deck. The first few cards alone are just enough to make you scared in the middle of the game. Strategy still plays a major part in it though. - Trident University
I believe you.
Still, writing that " major bot chains discuss shutting down" suggest to me that they choose between shutting down or keep on running. I guess that V4-ready bots will continue running (if they exist?). All other bots will naturally not be running. Not much of a choise?
V4 is in beta and still changing so it is no surprise that bots are not V4 ready.
I hope that you are able to make a good V4 bot quickly. I like bots.
Completely agree with this too.
I'm sure there are a lot of other problems with v4 but this is my main gripe. I can't understand how on v3 I can see my hand, the majority of each graveyard, have clear pop-up windows for the Exiled pile and any Revealed Cards, the stack has it's own always-open area and I have a card preview in the top left that is always open while on v4 I have none of these things and the battlefield still manages to be irritatingly small.
I only play on my laptop as I don't have a desktop and I have a 15.6" screen. I know this isn't the largest screen available but it works fine with v3 and I can't see why it should work just as well with v4. I don't know what they are doing with the space but on screens like mine it is certainly not being used efficiently.
Hey Montolio, I never put together the video / article for our match from my point of view. Probably the moment has passed now. Glad you were recording, too!
Congrats!
"10: At Least Consider Real World Screen Sizes"
Seriously. I think this is my biggest complaint about the entire new version. I literally cannot believe that they waste SO MUCH screen space in v4 on useless crap.
I'm glad that you enjoy these :) Hopefully it ends up helping you. This format is truly the most difficult format I've analyzed so far.
I feel famous :)
My list is below. I believe 2 is supposed to be fixed in v4. 3 is currently fixed, but then they mess it up again and again.
1: 64 man drafts added to rotation of Events.
2: Visual/Audible Notification of disconnect, deckbuild/afk time expiring and round starts.
3: Prize Payouts as close to draft sets as possible.
4: Rotate Classic draft queues monthly!
5: MOCS level events for Classic/Pauper
6: Power 9!
7: Award Promo Cards for Constructed PEs (esp for Legacy/Classic)
8: Program Split option back in!
9: Set Favorite version in deck editor (i.e. always use x swamp)
10: Better sorting of gold cards in deck editor.
11: Bring leagues Back!
There are some bots for v4 already developed and running, they most certainly will continue to do so during v3's downtime. I won't name names, it will be easy to find them during said downtime.
As a bot developer, I can agree with what he says. V4 is buggy and inconsistent, trying to deal with all the issues has slowed development down massively.
The way Pete writes it, it sounds like the major bot chains choose to shut down during the two days V3 is turned off. And this is presumably because trading is "unstable" in V4 right now.
Is this really true?
I just thought the dealers had not yet programmed the bots to V4, so that they really do not have a choice in shutting down or not?
If this is the case then it is a bit harsh to say that: "Shiny simply does not handle trades well enough. The crashes, bugs and problems are bad enough that most of the dealers recommend that users reinstall v3 to complete trades.".
Blaming it all on Shiny is too easy.
This weekend is the LCQ for Peasant that means last chance qualifiers. Come on out to secure your place for extra prizes and bigger rewards.
Been waiting for this! Great article, all the work you put in on these is appreciated! Glad that it appears the format is in for a big slow-down.
Sigil of Sleep is sick. I was on its receiving end a lot during the UD release events, but sadly didn't come up with a strategy such as yours. Which is a shame, too, because I used to play with the Osprey and the Metathran A LOT back in the simpler times of 1999.
As for Immortal Servitude.decs they are ubiquitous and vary a bit in particulars but you can always tell them by their many sac outlets and ways to discard or otherwise mass-selfmill. And draw mechanisms (like those mentioned cards make sense to add in if possible in the target CMC.) The two slot has some interesting possibilities including Blood Artist, Cartel Aristocrat, Thalia etc. But the Three Slot has even better choices I think with Malcontents, undercity informer, Biovisionarys, Splinterfright, etc.
I've already extensively posted my opinions on the Beta stuff in the forums so Ill just leave that there. most of the other news isn't particularly of interest to me but I can see some of it having a large impact on the community in general.
The idea that 70% of those who tried V4 stuck with it can't be true. I haven't heard a single positive thing about V4 from any of the writers who have tried it. Pete here has been more charitable and forgiving than most, but even he treats using it like learning a highly unnecessary foreign language. Even accounting for the fact that people who don't like it will be more vocal, the 70% figure just can't be correct.
From the screenshots and videos I've seen, the appearance of V4 looks like they're trying to make it more appealing to newbies transitioning from DotP. Maybe they think that's good enough for business (DotP was obviously pretty good for paper magic's sales) that they're willing to alienate all current players and figure "well they'll just have to learn to suffer through it, where else are they gonna go?"
All I know is that V4 is completely unnecessary, and nobody wants it, so the move to switch people over must be driven by a desire to appeal to people who aren't presently using MTGO.
I feel sorry for Ryan Spain, being forced to shill for this crappy product in order to keep what he expected to be his dream job.
Infinite players do make profit for Wizards. Stop spreading this fallacy. I'll explain starting with the two false models.
Model 1: Each queue makes an average of X dollars profit for Wizards, so regardless of who wins what, they want more people to play to fire as many queues as possible regardless of who wins what. Each player in an 8 man queue is responsible for 1/8 of the profit.
Error: But what if when some winners take packs instead of some losers, the losers no longer have the resources to pay to play, so more queues today sometimes means fewer queues tomorrow.
Model 2: Ultimately, only players who purchase directly from the store make profit for Wizards.
Error: But what drives the need for purchasing from the store? Loss. Who delivers loss? The winners. Every time a player causes another player to make a purchase at the store that they would not make if they had won their match, the winner of the match is causing a profit for Wizards. The only time infinite players do not make profit for WotC is when they knock out a player who is not willing to spend any more money, otherwise they are forcing people to spend more.
That final part about players' budgets is important. There are hypothetical player populations that make free-rolling players scorned because everyone has a very small fixed amount of money they can spend. There are also populations where the players mostly decide to keep playing no matter what, money be damned, the free-rollers profiting the company to the fullest. The reality is somewhere in this range.
Now ask yourself, what do you see more, stingy players who stick to a strict budget no matter what, or loose players who keep playing in spite of losing, the type of player who plans to play X times a month rather than pay Y dollars per month.
WotC would never tell free-rollers to stop playing because they do contribute to profit, though it's difficult to put a number on how much. In the worst case, the winners act to extract as much money from the losers as they were going to pay, often hastening the process and ensuring its completion. At best, they are extracting more, from the players who never meet their bounds of budget and will pay as much as they lose.
Hey ty PW. Kill switch is the shabrizznackle against affinity and Stax!
Hey ty PW. Kill switch is the shabrizznackle against affinity and Stax!
My most successful draft format ever, and an experience similar as yours with triple SHM, was triple Urza's Destiny. I think I won about 10 UD-UD-UD drafts IN A ROW (and I'm not even a good drafter usually), by going monoblue and taking as many Sigil of Sleep, Metathran Soldier and Fledging Osprey as possible. Nobody was doing that, and the set was small enough that over the course of the 3 boosters you could collect up to 5 or 6 copies of each (that's the first time I even realized Limited doesn't use the "4 copies per deck" rule.) Turn-1 Osprey into Turn-2 Sigil, or Turn-2 Metathran into Turn-3 Sigil was game over 90% of the times, given the scarcity of serious removals. People kept losing to it, yet I never met anybody else who drafted the same cards. Good times.
Hadn't had a chance to congratulate you yet. Also, Kill Switch seems good with Arcum Dagsson, and Needle Bug, too.
Sorry to hear that Ilsken. That was really bad luck and has happened to us all at some point in time. Congrats on a solid top 8!
Andy
Definitely African but the set was very reminiscent of AN and imho was inspired by it.
I have a theory (that maybe I'll flesh out in an article at some point) where the MTG blocks are proceeding in a 7-year cycle. After the "Ancient Age" (or Ancient Age plus Middle Age, if you consider the Dark/Homeland/Alliances as the lowest point in MTG history), the first cycle started with Mirage, which is when organized play and a more clear "we know what we're doing" feel originated (so Renaissance Age?) Mirage to Onslaught are 7 blocks. Then the Modern Age starts.
We have 1. Mirrodin (artifact block), 2. Kamigawa (heavily flavored, underpowerd, top-down design block), 3. Ravnica (multicolored block), 4. Time Spiral (experimental/return to Dominaria block), 5. Lorwyn/Shadowmoor (tribal block), 6. Alara (differently multicolored block), 7. Zendikar.
Then the third cycle is having:
1. Return to Mirrodin
2. Return to a top-down, flavorful block
3. Return to Ravnica
I don't know if the next one will be something comparable to Time Spiral (which maybe is meant to remain unique in MTG history), but so far it works. Of the three remaining blocks/planes, I think I'd like a return to Lorwyn the most, but I don't know if the story allows it.