Lot of useful information made readily available, good work!
Even for someone who knows most of it it's at least a quick way to find links to deck lists you might be a little fuzzy on.
Only decent paper cards in my closet are a play-set of Pernicious Deed, Burning & Living Wishes.
And a singleton Tolarian Academy, heh.
Andy always seemed like the balance between George the dreamer and Zach the naysayer. Kind of disappointing to see Andy go, but if someone's isn't feeling it, I guess it's time to go rather than keep doing what you don't want to be doing. Good luck with everything, Andy, and thanks for all your work supporting this format.
I like Slash Panther lists and I have been playing a version with 23 creatures plus two Lotus Petals (just for the speed of getting a turn 1 Lodestone or a Precursor with only {2} lands) and zero Null Rod and zero Mishra's Factory. I like the speed and what naysayers need to keep in mind is that you have your full complement of Spheres and Chalice, so it has the same amount of control with a faster clock. I've also been turned on to Precursor Golem. That thing is a beast. My initial testing with the deck seems pretty strong, but I haven't tested the mirror much.
Sphinx in Blue's Gush-Control deck is a house. It shuts down Shops (yeah, they can get a Duplicant, but that's with no card draw or counter back up). Sphinx does double duty of blocking and gaining you life while still putting on the beats . . . and gaining you life. Seems solid to me. In combat it shuts down every Shop creature, and with first strike, takes out Steel Hellkite and walks away. Pro red and green stop the two most common removal spells, Nature's Claim and Ancient Grudge. Seems amazing in the meta, actually.
My vote for a new co-host is Bactgudz or Timmins, but I'm not sure how willing or free they are. Those guys were very informative in past appearances and are amazing players.
It would be great if you guys could post a short synopsis as a header for your article before you get into decks. Give a subjects discussed kinda thing. I often have to listen in parts and it would be great if i could fast forward and find the most interesting parts first.
Hey that's a cool pic! :D Nice card. Id probably use the covers for Physical Graffiti and Houses of the Holy if I were to make some. Two of my favorite covers ever. And certainly they top my personal preferences.
My Itouch is only 16gb and is probably one of the first made (it was a gift). I just haven't much patience for the i software...Eventually I'll load it up. Apparently this morning I irritated the house by accidentally setting the alarm feature. :p
I was actually aware of the changes to the end step and how we now have a cleanup step and how some cards got "at the beginning of the end step" and "next end step" type rewordings. I mentioned them in my rather long post above.
What I actually did was to wait until the sac/exile trigger was on the stack, during my end step. So the trigger had already had its chance to go on the stack and I didn't skip any end step. I think you were suggesting that I had actually skipped an end step?
I still maintain that both Corpse Dance and Sneak Attack should work with Sundial/Time Stop/Stifle even though they don't work in the client. We get one extra turn out of the creature, but then at the beginning of the next end step (the second one) another (spurious, I think) trigger goes on the stack forcing me to sac/exile.
I wasn't able to find any definitive answer to this on the wizards site apart from the link I mentioned, which is quite old and predates the M10 rules changes. However, I did find several casual forums where people agreed that the combo should work.
I guess the thing that bugs me is that things like Mimic Vat and the others that Lord Erman mentions work--I've tested some of them, just to be sure--but Corpse Dance and Sneak Attack don't even though they've got exactly the same templating, ie they all say "at the beginning of the next end step".
I think in the end, I'll raise a bug report with them and see what they say. I'll post back here if/when I hear something.
Yeah, I can understand getting sucked into something, particularly if you have an addictive personality. Still, compared to other vices, flopping virtual cards with friends is low on the ladder of self-destruction. =p
Argh! Yeah, let this be a lesson to you: never leave home without a fully loaded iPod/iTouch. I'm such an iPod junkie, I bought the biggest I could find (160 GB, which they no longer produce) and still have it nearly full. It's like a personal entertainment center.
Speaking of Zeppelin, I altered Assault Zeppelid in honor of Led Zeppelin:
You actually managed to find a few things that hadn't occurred to me. The only thing of consequence that you missed (that I know of at any rate) are the Cumulative Upkeep cards, Glacial Chasm in particular.
Thanks for the well wishes. I yearn to be back in the saddle again but then I know I put way too much time into MODO and the break has been productive in other ways.
I did have my i-touch but it has barely anything on it and I STILL haven't figured out how to set it up for apps from itunes. Though I did get to listen to the Led Zep bbc recordings (again) while trying to sleep through a super fever. An experience I don't wish to repeat. ;p
Draft 4, Round 2, Game 2: They have 6 poison, you have Ichorclaw equipped with the sword and a Spread the Sickness in hand - why not destroy the Myr and swing for lethal?
Glad you're feeling better and perhaps a forced absence from MTGO for all of us might not be so bad.
Regarding hospital boredom, that's why I love my old iPod Classic. It really is always with me in times like an unexpected wait, on a trip or in a hospital. On there I keep music, stand-up comedy, radio shows, TV shows, films, audio books, games, etc.: a good mix of diversions. =)
Hey man, glad to hear you're feeling better! Was wondering where you'd been, enjoy the time you have out of town, enjoy the weather (if it's good) and hope to hear from you again soon!
thanks - This article has come along at a really good time for me - I've spent part of this summer going through my paper collection which had been in storage. I was surprised how good some of it still is - just going through and trying to decide what to sell and what to keep has been very difficult for me. I missed out on close to ten year's worth of paper cards, so I'm missing more recent staples (looking at you Tarmogoyf). However, I was pleasantly surprised to find some things I wasn't expecting like full playsets of Force and Wasteland and some blue duals I didn't remember buying. Thanks for "scanning endless amounts of decklists" for me. It should help me out!
I think the problem is due to the unintuitive and somewhat ambiguous history of timing rules. The End of Turn triggers all need to be rewritten for m10 rules. M10 changed the end step so that it has a clearly delineated beginning and then cleanup. Because of this since the beginning is never achieved it looks for the next available beginning and starts the trigger.
But wait you say the sundial ended the turn before said trigger could be recorded. But that isn't how certain cards work. If a card says the text on it (until the next end step or the like) it will keep checking until the trigger happens even though you'd think not. (Sundial doesn't negate these which is why Corpse Dance once would have worked this way but now does not since its errata to avoid broken combos with it back in the day.)
Hey, I think you're mostly right about the Grim Affliction pick, it's proliferate is strong (because it's black) but the Volt Charge has a stronger, rawer power (3 dmg, and ability to hit players) though I'm usually a black player regardless.
Concerning the Glistener Elf and my lack of giving it thought. The elf is really good in multiples, and works best in an aggro deck (or one that has a good amount of equipment) meaning it's dependent a lot on an opening hand (I'd much rather have a Flensermite than a Glistener Elf as the game goes on, as bad as both of them are), other future picks, and whether I have multiples of them. That's too much for me to bank on it being good and I don't really like low impact cards (which was why I was so hesitant on picking Flensermite in the MBS pack)
Some other cards that come to mind that can be abused with the Sundial:
Herald of Leshrac: don't pay upkeep, then end your turn when its leaves play trigger is on the stack; you lose a turn, but you've got their lands permanently. Alternatively, use a bounce effect like Vedalken Mastermind or Crystal Shard later in your turn to get more value out of it.
Wormfang Manta: neuter the ETB trigger to save up a turn; by use of bounce and clever stacking you can go infinite in turns for an upkeep cost of 6UU. Final Fortune on a stick is a lot cheaper, though, and has the same number of moving parts.
Lord of Tresserhorn: another one of those creatures with hefty ETB drawbacks.
Another thing that strikes me is the list of existing cards that the Sundial is like:
Torpor Orb: as you mentioned. Sundial is sometimes better because you can end the turn before a Naturalize targeting it resolves when you've got a Leveler or somesuch on the stack.
Stifle, Trickbind, Voidslime: you mentioned Stifle.
Vanishing/Reality Ripple: very different cards in many ways, but also have overlaps, mainly to do with avoiding turn-end triggers
Illusionary Mask: avoids ETB triggers.
Time Stop: Sundial can do it in each of your turns for a whole lot less.
Defense Grid/City of Solitude: Sundial can stop opponents playing stuff in your turn, but at a steep cost
Any of these cards are probably worth looking up for deck ideas. I'm sure quite a few of them could be retooled to use the Sundial instead.
I don't understand how this didn't work. It's a one-time "at the beginning of the next end step" trigger. If you activate the Sundial at the end of your turn when the trigger is on the stack, the sac effect should never resolve. Did you try something different or get any more explanation back from Wizards than "you can't do that?"
This was bugging me so I put together a test deck with Sneak Attack and Time Stop in it. I actually got mixed results. I was able to stop time with the sacrifice trigger on the stack and my creature didn't die there and then. But then at the end of my next turn (this was a solitaire game) the trigger happened again. This makes no sense to me since as far as I was aware "at the beginning of the next end step" triggers only happen once.
Q: What's up with last week's Time Stop / Waylay thing?
A: Ok, here's how it works… Things that say “at end of turn” will trigger the next time the game reaches the end of turn step [CR 313.1]. Permanents tend to have a triggered ability that will apply regardless of the turn. Spells (like Waylay) and abilities (like Sneak Attack) tack on a trigger but only once. If you Time Stop early, that delayed trigger is still ready to go off [CR 404.4b]. If you let the trigger event occur and Time Stop before it resolves, the delayed trigger will have gone off and not trigger again—you'll keep the tokens (or the Sneak-y creature).
Which is, to me, unequivocally saying that Sneak Attack + Time Stop/Stifle/Sundial should work to keep the creature in play without there being any more triggers to contend with. I hope we can get a ruling on this and, if needs be, an update to fix the problem...
Lot of useful information made readily available, good work!
Even for someone who knows most of it it's at least a quick way to find links to deck lists you might be a little fuzzy on.
Only decent paper cards in my closet are a play-set of Pernicious Deed, Burning & Living Wishes.
And a singleton Tolarian Academy, heh.
I'd settle for Wizards finding some extra play sets of Forces and Wastelands in the MTGO closet and releasing them into the system.
Thanks for not having twitter and skype blowing up across the screen and making noises every 2 seconds like other vloggers on this site.
Andy always seemed like the balance between George the dreamer and Zach the naysayer. Kind of disappointing to see Andy go, but if someone's isn't feeling it, I guess it's time to go rather than keep doing what you don't want to be doing. Good luck with everything, Andy, and thanks for all your work supporting this format.
I like Slash Panther lists and I have been playing a version with 23 creatures plus two Lotus Petals (just for the speed of getting a turn 1 Lodestone or a Precursor with only {2} lands) and zero Null Rod and zero Mishra's Factory. I like the speed and what naysayers need to keep in mind is that you have your full complement of Spheres and Chalice, so it has the same amount of control with a faster clock. I've also been turned on to Precursor Golem. That thing is a beast. My initial testing with the deck seems pretty strong, but I haven't tested the mirror much.
Sphinx in Blue's Gush-Control deck is a house. It shuts down Shops (yeah, they can get a Duplicant, but that's with no card draw or counter back up). Sphinx does double duty of blocking and gaining you life while still putting on the beats . . . and gaining you life. Seems solid to me. In combat it shuts down every Shop creature, and with first strike, takes out Steel Hellkite and walks away. Pro red and green stop the two most common removal spells, Nature's Claim and Ancient Grudge. Seems amazing in the meta, actually.
My vote for a new co-host is Bactgudz or Timmins, but I'm not sure how willing or free they are. Those guys were very informative in past appearances and are amazing players.
It would be great if you guys could post a short synopsis as a header for your article before you get into decks. Give a subjects discussed kinda thing. I often have to listen in parts and it would be great if i could fast forward and find the most interesting parts first.
Just a suggestion.
(=
That's probably a good plan. Even if you're wrong it doesn't hurt to let them know (again) how uninituitive the whole timing issue is.
Hey that's a cool pic! :D Nice card. Id probably use the covers for Physical Graffiti and Houses of the Holy if I were to make some. Two of my favorite covers ever. And certainly they top my personal preferences.
My Itouch is only 16gb and is probably one of the first made (it was a gift). I just haven't much patience for the i software...Eventually I'll load it up. Apparently this morning I irritated the house by accidentally setting the alarm feature. :p
for a one sided Illusions of Grandeur? Similar to the Donate interaction, by just ending turn when the -20 hits..or does it?
PS I'm leaning to yes, but too lazy to check.
Glad you enjoyed the article, I sure wish I found playsets of Forces and Wastelands in my closet lol.
I was actually aware of the changes to the end step and how we now have a cleanup step and how some cards got "at the beginning of the end step" and "next end step" type rewordings. I mentioned them in my rather long post above.
What I actually did was to wait until the sac/exile trigger was on the stack, during my end step. So the trigger had already had its chance to go on the stack and I didn't skip any end step. I think you were suggesting that I had actually skipped an end step?
I still maintain that both Corpse Dance and Sneak Attack should work with Sundial/Time Stop/Stifle even though they don't work in the client. We get one extra turn out of the creature, but then at the beginning of the next end step (the second one) another (spurious, I think) trigger goes on the stack forcing me to sac/exile.
I wasn't able to find any definitive answer to this on the wizards site apart from the link I mentioned, which is quite old and predates the M10 rules changes. However, I did find several casual forums where people agreed that the combo should work.
I guess the thing that bugs me is that things like Mimic Vat and the others that Lord Erman mentions work--I've tested some of them, just to be sure--but Corpse Dance and Sneak Attack don't even though they've got exactly the same templating, ie they all say "at the beginning of the next end step".
I think in the end, I'll raise a bug report with them and see what they say. I'll post back here if/when I hear something.
Yeah, I can understand getting sucked into something, particularly if you have an addictive personality. Still, compared to other vices, flopping virtual cards with friends is low on the ladder of self-destruction. =p
Argh! Yeah, let this be a lesson to you: never leave home without a fully loaded iPod/iTouch. I'm such an iPod junkie, I bought the biggest I could find (160 GB, which they no longer produce) and still have it nearly full. It's like a personal entertainment center.
Speaking of Zeppelin, I altered Assault Zeppelid in honor of Led Zeppelin:
http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss48/MMMoggg/MTGO%20Custom%20card%20a...
=D
You actually managed to find a few things that hadn't occurred to me. The only thing of consequence that you missed (that I know of at any rate) are the Cumulative Upkeep cards, Glacial Chasm in particular.
Heya Acgabs hope all is going well with you too...you know you can email me (at the above address) or just use my (full) name+gmail.com.
Thanks for the well wishes. I yearn to be back in the saddle again but then I know I put way too much time into MODO and the break has been productive in other ways.
I did have my i-touch but it has barely anything on it and I STILL haven't figured out how to set it up for apps from itunes. Though I did get to listen to the Led Zep bbc recordings (again) while trying to sleep through a super fever. An experience I don't wish to repeat. ;p
I use Camtasia Studio. It's pretty user friendly, though it takes a toll on the CPU of the comp.
Draft 4, Round 2, Game 2: They have 6 poison, you have Ichorclaw equipped with the sword and a Spread the Sickness in hand - why not destroy the Myr and swing for lethal?
Glad you're feeling better and perhaps a forced absence from MTGO for all of us might not be so bad.
Regarding hospital boredom, that's why I love my old iPod Classic. It really is always with me in times like an unexpected wait, on a trip or in a hospital. On there I keep music, stand-up comedy, radio shows, TV shows, films, audio books, games, etc.: a good mix of diversions. =)
What do you use to record your games ?
Hey man, glad to hear you're feeling better! Was wondering where you'd been, enjoy the time you have out of town, enjoy the weather (if it's good) and hope to hear from you again soon!
thanks - This article has come along at a really good time for me - I've spent part of this summer going through my paper collection which had been in storage. I was surprised how good some of it still is - just going through and trying to decide what to sell and what to keep has been very difficult for me. I missed out on close to ten year's worth of paper cards, so I'm missing more recent staples (looking at you Tarmogoyf). However, I was pleasantly surprised to find some things I wasn't expecting like full playsets of Force and Wasteland and some blue duals I didn't remember buying. Thanks for "scanning endless amounts of decklists" for me. It should help me out!
I think the problem is due to the unintuitive and somewhat ambiguous history of timing rules. The End of Turn triggers all need to be rewritten for m10 rules. M10 changed the end step so that it has a clearly delineated beginning and then cleanup. Because of this since the beginning is never achieved it looks for the next available beginning and starts the trigger.
But wait you say the sundial ended the turn before said trigger could be recorded. But that isn't how certain cards work. If a card says the text on it (until the next end step or the like) it will keep checking until the trigger happens even though you'd think not. (Sundial doesn't negate these which is why Corpse Dance once would have worked this way but now does not since its errata to avoid broken combos with it back in the day.)
Hey, I think you're mostly right about the Grim Affliction pick, it's proliferate is strong (because it's black) but the Volt Charge has a stronger, rawer power (3 dmg, and ability to hit players) though I'm usually a black player regardless.
Concerning the Glistener Elf and my lack of giving it thought. The elf is really good in multiples, and works best in an aggro deck (or one that has a good amount of equipment) meaning it's dependent a lot on an opening hand (I'd much rather have a Flensermite than a Glistener Elf as the game goes on, as bad as both of them are), other future picks, and whether I have multiples of them. That's too much for me to bank on it being good and I don't really like low impact cards (which was why I was so hesitant on picking Flensermite in the MBS pack)
Some other cards that come to mind that can be abused with the Sundial:
Herald of Leshrac: don't pay upkeep, then end your turn when its leaves play trigger is on the stack; you lose a turn, but you've got their lands permanently. Alternatively, use a bounce effect like Vedalken Mastermind or Crystal Shard later in your turn to get more value out of it.
Wormfang Manta: neuter the ETB trigger to save up a turn; by use of bounce and clever stacking you can go infinite in turns for an upkeep cost of 6UU. Final Fortune on a stick is a lot cheaper, though, and has the same number of moving parts.
Lord of Tresserhorn: another one of those creatures with hefty ETB drawbacks.
Another thing that strikes me is the list of existing cards that the Sundial is like:
Torpor Orb: as you mentioned. Sundial is sometimes better because you can end the turn before a Naturalize targeting it resolves when you've got a Leveler or somesuch on the stack.
Stifle, Trickbind, Voidslime: you mentioned Stifle.
Vanishing/Reality Ripple: very different cards in many ways, but also have overlaps, mainly to do with avoiding turn-end triggers
Illusionary Mask: avoids ETB triggers.
Time Stop: Sundial can do it in each of your turns for a whole lot less.
Defense Grid/City of Solitude: Sundial can stop opponents playing stuff in your turn, but at a steep cost
Any of these cards are probably worth looking up for deck ideas. I'm sure quite a few of them could be retooled to use the Sundial instead.
I don't understand how this didn't work. It's a one-time "at the beginning of the next end step" trigger. If you activate the Sundial at the end of your turn when the trigger is on the stack, the sac effect should never resolve. Did you try something different or get any more explanation back from Wizards than "you can't do that?"
This was bugging me so I put together a test deck with Sneak Attack and Time Stop in it. I actually got mixed results. I was able to stop time with the sacrifice trigger on the stack and my creature didn't die there and then. But then at the end of my next turn (this was a solitaire game) the trigger happened again. This makes no sense to me since as far as I was aware "at the beginning of the next end step" triggers only happen once.
In fact, I looked this up and found this page on the wizards site: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/jc6
To quote from it:
Q: What's up with last week's Time Stop / Waylay thing?
A: Ok, here's how it works… Things that say “at end of turn” will trigger the next time the game reaches the end of turn step [CR 313.1]. Permanents tend to have a triggered ability that will apply regardless of the turn. Spells (like Waylay) and abilities (like Sneak Attack) tack on a trigger but only once. If you Time Stop early, that delayed trigger is still ready to go off [CR 404.4b]. If you let the trigger event occur and Time Stop before it resolves, the delayed trigger will have gone off and not trigger again—you'll keep the tokens (or the Sneak-y creature).
Which is, to me, unequivocally saying that Sneak Attack + Time Stop/Stifle/Sundial should work to keep the creature in play without there being any more triggers to contend with. I hope we can get a ruling on this and, if needs be, an update to fix the problem...
Awesome article, great content