There is an archetype that involves grabbing up Zephyr Sprites, Raging Goblins, and Trumpet Blasts. Along with things like Jackal Pups, etc. I can't say I recommend it, as it's a huge gamble. But you can often get every Zephyr Sprite and Trumpet Blast at the table, as nobody in their right mind is picking them. When it works out, I'm sure your dead opponent will be sitting there thinking "wtf just happened to me?"
I've never tried this archetype myself, I think one of Olivier Ruel's or Luis Scott Vargas's draft walkthroughs showed them drafting it. Nice thing to try if you're really bored and looking for something different to do, I guess!
I wouldn't mind one Zephyr Sprite as a 23rd filler card in a flyers and walls deck. Wouldn't want to play two, and zero is better. I did get stuck with two zephyr sprites in one draft, it didn't go well.
I agree with virtually everything. Except...raging goblin. It does have a home in a few decks. If you get 2 of the rare goblin lord he is good, if you have the jackal pup deck he is good. And my favorite, rg aggro with overrun(s) on t5 ftw.
He is still junk in those decks, but he is a key part of them too.
I once lost a draft match to a guy that on both games he won he made a magebane armored, whipersilk cloaked Platinum angel. That was tough, I can tell you. I had a controlish deck with a few Essence scatters and a Mind control, but had nothing that could deal with all those artifacts at the same time.
On the black bombs, I would have added the Xhatrid demon. He is really heavy black, but it's very devastating when it lands into play.
The main point I wanted to make is that it's more important to get the draft and sealed environment right for Master's Edition 4,5, or 6 than strictly adhere to the policy of "we can't reprint it, it's already online."
I had secondary points that I wanted to make such as cards that could be included to generate interest in master's edition. However it was not entirely clear from the get-go what my primary end goal was. As much as I like the top ten format, it does have a tendancy to scatter intent.
Cards like Terramorphic Expanse, Naturalize, Terror, Path to Exile, and Prismatic Lens really are necessary for a limited environment to succeed, so why not use them to smooth things out limited.
Then there are other cards that help drive sales and increase interest in a set. These are probably best left to later sets after most of the relevant cards have been reprinted. However it is another selling point to including other reprints so I felt it was a valid point for the article.
I really didn't want to get into specifics because then the discussion largely boils down to what cards we'd like to see again. In my mind that kind of discussion is rather trivial. However I can see now that the devil is in the details with this kind of discussion.
That being said, if it wasn't for Just Fate, I highly agree that Path to Exile would be more acceptable than another StP in many ways. There are probably a number of spots where this is the case, but they are very minor. I even suggested putting Naturalize in MED4 because Disenchant was overused as the MEDs enchantment/artifact removal.
I don't think your article made your point very clear on the specifics though
how bout this,
med 4 is coming soon, and regaurdless of what it has in it we can assume that it will have all of the missing legacy staples it could have. Maybe we get lucky and get us som p9 too.
Ok so goal 1 of med sets is now completed, we have every tourny style card online for vintage and legacy. hooray.
Now its a year later and the price of duals is rough due to legacys popularity.
enter med5 which has reprints of duals and a smattering of cards never released online before and a smattering of cards reprinted from both previous med sets and other sets.
Med5 becomes popular because it is a balance draft set due to the fact they had no stupid reprint policys tying their hands.
med6 comes out the next year and voila! we have yet another set that wotc can cram down our throats every year
how bout this,
med 4 is coming soon, and regaurdless of what it has in it we can assume that it will have all of the missing legacy staples it could have. Maybe we get lucky and get us som p9 too.
Ok so goal 1 of med sets is now completed, we have every tourny style card online for vintage and legacy. hooray.
Now its a year later and the price of duals is rough due to legacys popularity.
enter med5 which has reprints of duals and a smattering of cards never released online before and a smattering of cards reprinted from both previous med sets and other sets.
Med5 becomes popular because it is a balance draft set due to the fact they had no stupid reprint policys tying their hands.
med6 comes out the next year and voila! we have yet another set that wotc can cram down our throats every year
They've already done this, and it's generally been accepted that adding non-preIPA cards for limited is a necessary part of making these sets - see Disenchant already appearing twice.
They already add lots of cards for pauper. If anything, pauper players have gotten more out of MEDs than Classic players did.
But adding cards for extended? Again - you are removing focus from the set I get what you are trying to do by adding audience to the set, but that merely removes audience from other areas. So you have to be very specific with your cards.
For example, if you said you wanted to add Birds of Paradise to the set, because you had a bird theme going with Soraya, the Falconer (and many other unreleased birds) and you were going to use the original art, I think that would be a great addition. A original art Wrath of God might appeal to a lot of people. But randomly throwing in, say, Doran the Siege Tower will not fit into the theme and limited play and/or cause people to think "that could have been [insert nostalgic rare I really wanted to see]".
Again, MEDs sets need the same kind of focus that regular sets do. More so, since they are really only selling to a particular crowd. If you want some extended reprints, there are plenty of chances to see them in Duel Decks, FTVs, or hell, even Standard sets (i.e. smother)
Later, When MED has run it's course on trying to get new cards into the system THEN you can focus on random reprints. For now, MED sets will have to appeal to the non-eternal crowd on it's own merits. And if it doesn't - oh well.
to be quite honest im kind of drawing a blank unless you mean some sort of play harabaz it has haste tap it, plays tons more, tap them for any abilities, etc.
If so then concordant crossroads would be great and it does give me a first turn play, it just makes me wish for more allies with good tap abilities.
Have you tried some way of giving your allies haste? One of the things I've thought about is how Harabaz Druid and Seagate Loremaster can practically combo out with a Lightning Greaves or a Concondant Crossroads in play.
I remember playing with MED 1 and 10th edition in a league, however it was far enough back that I'm not sure whether it was a league or sealed deck tourney. I remember thinking it was a bit worse straight 10th edition and overall I wasn't very impressed.
What I acknowledge is opening up the list of possible reprints to more sets, for example everything that is currently out of print, is a dangerous proposition and needs to be done carefully. Reprint too many cards and the set loses focus. Reprint too many valuable cards and you upset collectors as those cards fall in value. However, if done correctly, by sprinkling a few well chosen reprint cards into the set, mostly at common rarities, you can boost the drivers without much impact otherwise.
In my article I tried to accentuate the positive benefits of this kind of decision, but failed to adequately mention the dangers of taking it too far.
What I'm suggesting is adding cards that are better for limited play and adding a few chase cards for pauper and possibly extended. How is that considered a reductor of limited play or constructed playables?
Doesn't mean you get to ignore the concept of designing for limited play. While the themes aren't as strong as current offerings, they are most certainly there. They are very definitely designed with limited play in in mind from the beginning. Even MED1 was designed with Limited play in mind - though it was assumed that MED1 would be played alongside 10th edition.
What's important here, and what you seem to be missing, is that MED sets need to stay tightly focused in order to be as good as possible in the areas that drive sales, and avoid making mistake in areas that reduce sales. The drivers are Nostalgia and eternal constructed staples, and the reductors are poor limited play and poor frequency of the drivers (meaning too much crap). MED1 had almost no constructed playables and wasn't playable in it's own limited environment, MED2 had too much crap (including, might I add, far too many reprints from the Coldsnap precons) and MED3 finally got it right and sold the holy hell out of the set.
Your call here is asking essentially for more reductors.
I don't think your comparison between Worldwake and the Master's Edition sets is all that valid.
Modern sets like Worldwake are designed limited play in mind. They are also designed with a storyline and envrionment behind them, and designed remarkably well to work both in drafts and sealed decks as well as constructed play. To a certain extent this is also true with older sets like Urza's Saga and I wouldn't even dream of making any kind of change to them in any way.
Master's Edition is a different story, it is already going to be a compilation set without an overall theme. (Yes I know subset themes are present like Portal 3 legends and Thallids, but it is nothing like the themes in Zendikar or Alara block) It is going to be composed of sets that were never meant for limited or sealed deck tournaments and yet it will be pushed heavily in both types of tournaments. The cards are going to have very limited appeal to most players. Especially if there are 5-6 chase rares for legacy/classic, and little to nothing of value for any other format. And of course it will not be redeamable.
I can see how one more Master's Edition could be successful if they reprinted the power 9, but I think using the "never before released online" concept for master's edition is a waste of potential. It should be a major reason for Master's Edition, but I don't think it should be the only reason for Master's Edition. Especially after we've exhausted quite a few of the chase "never before released online" cards already.
Allies are the new slivers I will admit, though i slept through this past PRE due to a midnight bus ride coming back from new york so I did not see them. Im guessing they were base green/white but thats only a guess. Yeah allies are popular know, though its expected with how they all work together.
good stuff I haven't yet gotten that angel and I'm disappointed that I cannot yet afford a set, tbh I've seen a lot of angel decks so I was more interested in the Ogres... I had forgotten about that card and that deck looks kinda fun I'll definitely have to look at them
I noticed two ally decks this past PRE not to mention a number of em in casual (and not just tribal I've played em in classic/multi/ext) and I'm already tired of seeing them :\ ... I won't deny building a deck and trying them myself, but I get tired of things that are overplayed
that aside I do have to say I like the idea of Rite of Rep in there, I would think the cost was too heavy, but with the ally its pretty nice tech
How many times have you said that? Safe passage is a really strong card IMO, even besides stopping the almighty overrun. Blocking with a bunch of dooks in a stall or attacking and looking like you're trying to break it up, and then playing this, is often a blowout.
One thing I think maybe people too casually toss aside when thinking about MED design is that, while the cards are old, *they are new to MTGO*. The focus of MED is to bring those cards online which we don't have - much like a new set like Worldwake brings new cards - expect Master's Edition is for online eyes only.
Now imagine Worldwake had a bunch of Conflux cards in it. And some Ravnica. Hell throw in some Champions of Kamigawa cards. Not only would people would rage in the streets over such a decision, it would totally destroy any semblance of what WoTC was trying to accomplish with the set - including having a thematic template.
The same applies to MED sets. Not only are they setting out to accomplish putting all new cards out there, they are trying to have the set themed and viable in limited play. If the theme(s) are functional in nature, as MED4 surely will be (Hi, artifacts and Antiquities), dropping in random cards - even really good ones - will not mesh well with what the set seeks to accomplish. As a great example, *you* might want more Null Rods, but do you really think that's a great idea to put that card in a set that will, by design, consist of a lot of artifacts?
Now, I see the day when Master's Edition - should they continue beyond the 4th - will have to move away from that focus. The reason is simple - there simply isn't anything good left to release that would be new to sell the sets. Honestly, once we get Maze of Ith, Regrowth, Sinkhole (prob all moved to rare) and I guess something like Control Magic (maybe moved to rare) the Legacy cards are pretty much tapped out. At which point you are left with Mishra's Workshop and every remaining unprinted Vintage Restricted card, and restricted cards simply don't sell sets - especially to non-vintage players :) So really, they've got about one set left of cards to mash together before they are completely out of "Buy me! I've got XXX in me" cards to sell MEDs. That would be the perfect time to start turning MEDs into rehashes of old cards. I wouldn't want to be the person tasked with designing that set for limited play though.
The other 800 or so completely useless cards that exist unreleased online are such a minor point. Personally, once MED4 is done I would just slap them all into a FTV: The Rest set for online only and be done with it, as the vast majority of them are simply renamed Grizzly Bears and Hill Giants or cards with no value to anyone.
Edit: I should add that there is a way to cheat around the lack of good unreleased rares and get pretty much anything into an MED set, but I know WoTC reads these articles and comments and I don't want to give them any ideas - though they've probably thought of it anyway.
There is an archetype that involves grabbing up Zephyr Sprites, Raging Goblins, and Trumpet Blasts. Along with things like Jackal Pups, etc. I can't say I recommend it, as it's a huge gamble. But you can often get every Zephyr Sprite and Trumpet Blast at the table, as nobody in their right mind is picking them. When it works out, I'm sure your dead opponent will be sitting there thinking "wtf just happened to me?"
I've never tried this archetype myself, I think one of Olivier Ruel's or Luis Scott Vargas's draft walkthroughs showed them drafting it. Nice thing to try if you're really bored and looking for something different to do, I guess!
I wouldn't mind one Zephyr Sprite as a 23rd filler card in a flyers and walls deck. Wouldn't want to play two, and zero is better. I did get stuck with two zephyr sprites in one draft, it didn't go well.
u said the nighthawk attacked nissa twice? If i'm not mistaken one hit from a deathtouch creature kills a planeswalker
Also Thousand-Year Elixer is nuts with both. And the Agadeem guy too.
I agree with virtually everything. Except...raging goblin. It does have a home in a few decks. If you get 2 of the rare goblin lord he is good, if you have the jackal pup deck he is good. And my favorite, rg aggro with overrun(s) on t5 ftw.
He is still junk in those decks, but he is a key part of them too.
I once lost a draft match to a guy that on both games he won he made a magebane armored, whipersilk cloaked Platinum angel. That was tough, I can tell you. I had a controlish deck with a few Essence scatters and a Mind control, but had nothing that could deal with all those artifacts at the same time.
On the black bombs, I would have added the Xhatrid demon. He is really heavy black, but it's very devastating when it lands into play.
That is fair critism.
The main point I wanted to make is that it's more important to get the draft and sealed environment right for Master's Edition 4,5, or 6 than strictly adhere to the policy of "we can't reprint it, it's already online."
I had secondary points that I wanted to make such as cards that could be included to generate interest in master's edition. However it was not entirely clear from the get-go what my primary end goal was. As much as I like the top ten format, it does have a tendancy to scatter intent.
Cards like Terramorphic Expanse, Naturalize, Terror, Path to Exile, and Prismatic Lens really are necessary for a limited environment to succeed, so why not use them to smooth things out limited.
Then there are other cards that help drive sales and increase interest in a set. These are probably best left to later sets after most of the relevant cards have been reprinted. However it is another selling point to including other reprints so I felt it was a valid point for the article.
I really didn't want to get into specifics because then the discussion largely boils down to what cards we'd like to see again. In my mind that kind of discussion is rather trivial. However I can see now that the devil is in the details with this kind of discussion.
in Principle, but to make my point, I think that if the toss up is between Path to Exile and Just Fate ( http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?name=Just%20Fate ) then Just Fate is the hands-down winner by virtue of it not being released yet.
That being said, if it wasn't for Just Fate, I highly agree that Path to Exile would be more acceptable than another StP in many ways. There are probably a number of spots where this is the case, but they are very minor. I even suggested putting Naturalize in MED4 because Disenchant was overused as the MEDs enchantment/artifact removal.
I don't think your article made your point very clear on the specifics though
yes many thanks to flippers for running the event in my place over spring break!
Yeah, that's basically what I meant. My Ally version has 4 Loremasters because it's absolutely nuts with haste.
When I mentioned Extended, I was thinking about stuff like Path to Exile to fill a white removal spot instead of yet another Swords to Plowshares.
I don't think that random reprints like Doran would be good any more than you do.
how bout this,
med 4 is coming soon, and regaurdless of what it has in it we can assume that it will have all of the missing legacy staples it could have. Maybe we get lucky and get us som p9 too.
Ok so goal 1 of med sets is now completed, we have every tourny style card online for vintage and legacy. hooray.
Now its a year later and the price of duals is rough due to legacys popularity.
enter med5 which has reprints of duals and a smattering of cards never released online before and a smattering of cards reprinted from both previous med sets and other sets.
Med5 becomes popular because it is a balance draft set due to the fact they had no stupid reprint policys tying their hands.
med6 comes out the next year and voila! we have yet another set that wotc can cram down our throats every year
how bout this,
med 4 is coming soon, and regaurdless of what it has in it we can assume that it will have all of the missing legacy staples it could have. Maybe we get lucky and get us som p9 too.
Ok so goal 1 of med sets is now completed, we have every tourny style card online for vintage and legacy. hooray.
Now its a year later and the price of duals is rough due to legacys popularity.
enter med5 which has reprints of duals and a smattering of cards never released online before and a smattering of cards reprinted from both previous med sets and other sets.
Med5 becomes popular because it is a balance draft set due to the fact they had no stupid reprint policys tying their hands.
med6 comes out the next year and voila! we have yet another set that wotc can cram down our throats every year
Just to let you all know I will be covering the last two weeks of decks in an article after the one I have currently submitted is published.
They've already done this, and it's generally been accepted that adding non-preIPA cards for limited is a necessary part of making these sets - see Disenchant already appearing twice.
They already add lots of cards for pauper. If anything, pauper players have gotten more out of MEDs than Classic players did.
But adding cards for extended? Again - you are removing focus from the set I get what you are trying to do by adding audience to the set, but that merely removes audience from other areas. So you have to be very specific with your cards.
For example, if you said you wanted to add Birds of Paradise to the set, because you had a bird theme going with Soraya, the Falconer (and many other unreleased birds) and you were going to use the original art, I think that would be a great addition. A original art Wrath of God might appeal to a lot of people. But randomly throwing in, say, Doran the Siege Tower will not fit into the theme and limited play and/or cause people to think "that could have been [insert nostalgic rare I really wanted to see]".
Again, MEDs sets need the same kind of focus that regular sets do. More so, since they are really only selling to a particular crowd. If you want some extended reprints, there are plenty of chances to see them in Duel Decks, FTVs, or hell, even Standard sets (i.e. smother)
Later, When MED has run it's course on trying to get new cards into the system THEN you can focus on random reprints. For now, MED sets will have to appeal to the non-eternal crowd on it's own merits. And if it doesn't - oh well.
to be quite honest im kind of drawing a blank unless you mean some sort of play harabaz it has haste tap it, plays tons more, tap them for any abilities, etc.
If so then concordant crossroads would be great and it does give me a first turn play, it just makes me wish for more allies with good tap abilities.
Have you tried some way of giving your allies haste? One of the things I've thought about is how Harabaz Druid and Seagate Loremaster can practically combo out with a Lightning Greaves or a Concondant Crossroads in play.
I remember playing with MED 1 and 10th edition in a league, however it was far enough back that I'm not sure whether it was a league or sealed deck tourney. I remember thinking it was a bit worse straight 10th edition and overall I wasn't very impressed.
What I acknowledge is opening up the list of possible reprints to more sets, for example everything that is currently out of print, is a dangerous proposition and needs to be done carefully. Reprint too many cards and the set loses focus. Reprint too many valuable cards and you upset collectors as those cards fall in value. However, if done correctly, by sprinkling a few well chosen reprint cards into the set, mostly at common rarities, you can boost the drivers without much impact otherwise.
In my article I tried to accentuate the positive benefits of this kind of decision, but failed to adequately mention the dangers of taking it too far.
What I'm suggesting is adding cards that are better for limited play and adding a few chase cards for pauper and possibly extended. How is that considered a reductor of limited play or constructed playables?
Doesn't mean you get to ignore the concept of designing for limited play. While the themes aren't as strong as current offerings, they are most certainly there. They are very definitely designed with limited play in in mind from the beginning. Even MED1 was designed with Limited play in mind - though it was assumed that MED1 would be played alongside 10th edition.
(don't believe me? Check out the link - http://www.classicquarter.com/articles/020_080116.asp)
What's important here, and what you seem to be missing, is that MED sets need to stay tightly focused in order to be as good as possible in the areas that drive sales, and avoid making mistake in areas that reduce sales. The drivers are Nostalgia and eternal constructed staples, and the reductors are poor limited play and poor frequency of the drivers (meaning too much crap). MED1 had almost no constructed playables and wasn't playable in it's own limited environment, MED2 had too much crap (including, might I add, far too many reprints from the Coldsnap precons) and MED3 finally got it right and sold the holy hell out of the set.
Your call here is asking essentially for more reductors.
I don't think your comparison between Worldwake and the Master's Edition sets is all that valid.
Modern sets like Worldwake are designed limited play in mind. They are also designed with a storyline and envrionment behind them, and designed remarkably well to work both in drafts and sealed decks as well as constructed play. To a certain extent this is also true with older sets like Urza's Saga and I wouldn't even dream of making any kind of change to them in any way.
Master's Edition is a different story, it is already going to be a compilation set without an overall theme. (Yes I know subset themes are present like Portal 3 legends and Thallids, but it is nothing like the themes in Zendikar or Alara block) It is going to be composed of sets that were never meant for limited or sealed deck tournaments and yet it will be pushed heavily in both types of tournaments. The cards are going to have very limited appeal to most players. Especially if there are 5-6 chase rares for legacy/classic, and little to nothing of value for any other format. And of course it will not be redeamable.
I can see how one more Master's Edition could be successful if they reprinted the power 9, but I think using the "never before released online" concept for master's edition is a waste of potential. It should be a major reason for Master's Edition, but I don't think it should be the only reason for Master's Edition. Especially after we've exhausted quite a few of the chase "never before released online" cards already.
Allies are the new slivers I will admit, though i slept through this past PRE due to a midnight bus ride coming back from new york so I did not see them. Im guessing they were base green/white but thats only a guess. Yeah allies are popular know, though its expected with how they all work together.
The one card I want to see put in MED4 is swamp mosquito in common. My pauper poison is begging for it.
good stuff I haven't yet gotten that angel and I'm disappointed that I cannot yet afford a set, tbh I've seen a lot of angel decks so I was more interested in the Ogres... I had forgotten about that card and that deck looks kinda fun I'll definitely have to look at them
I noticed two ally decks this past PRE not to mention a number of em in casual (and not just tribal I've played em in classic/multi/ext) and I'm already tired of seeing them :\ ... I won't deny building a deck and trying them myself, but I get tired of things that are overplayed
that aside I do have to say I like the idea of Rite of Rep in there, I would think the cost was too heavy, but with the ally its pretty nice tech
"Oh, you have overrun.. gg"
How many times have you said that? Safe passage is a really strong card IMO, even besides stopping the almighty overrun. Blocking with a bunch of dooks in a stall or attacking and looking like you're trying to break it up, and then playing this, is often a blowout.
Sure why not.
One thing I think maybe people too casually toss aside when thinking about MED design is that, while the cards are old, *they are new to MTGO*. The focus of MED is to bring those cards online which we don't have - much like a new set like Worldwake brings new cards - expect Master's Edition is for online eyes only.
Now imagine Worldwake had a bunch of Conflux cards in it. And some Ravnica. Hell throw in some Champions of Kamigawa cards. Not only would people would rage in the streets over such a decision, it would totally destroy any semblance of what WoTC was trying to accomplish with the set - including having a thematic template.
The same applies to MED sets. Not only are they setting out to accomplish putting all new cards out there, they are trying to have the set themed and viable in limited play. If the theme(s) are functional in nature, as MED4 surely will be (Hi, artifacts and Antiquities), dropping in random cards - even really good ones - will not mesh well with what the set seeks to accomplish. As a great example, *you* might want more Null Rods, but do you really think that's a great idea to put that card in a set that will, by design, consist of a lot of artifacts?
Now, I see the day when Master's Edition - should they continue beyond the 4th - will have to move away from that focus. The reason is simple - there simply isn't anything good left to release that would be new to sell the sets. Honestly, once we get Maze of Ith, Regrowth, Sinkhole (prob all moved to rare) and I guess something like Control Magic (maybe moved to rare) the Legacy cards are pretty much tapped out. At which point you are left with Mishra's Workshop and every remaining unprinted Vintage Restricted card, and restricted cards simply don't sell sets - especially to non-vintage players :) So really, they've got about one set left of cards to mash together before they are completely out of "Buy me! I've got XXX in me" cards to sell MEDs. That would be the perfect time to start turning MEDs into rehashes of old cards. I wouldn't want to be the person tasked with designing that set for limited play though.
The other 800 or so completely useless cards that exist unreleased online are such a minor point. Personally, once MED4 is done I would just slap them all into a FTV: The Rest set for online only and be done with it, as the vast majority of them are simply renamed Grizzly Bears and Hill Giants or cards with no value to anyone.
Edit: I should add that there is a way to cheat around the lack of good unreleased rares and get pretty much anything into an MED set, but I know WoTC reads these articles and comments and I don't want to give them any ideas - though they've probably thought of it anyway.