You really should have waited to play that Charger in your first game. Play some other dudes and bait his removal. You're going to win with that dragon and you don't want him to blow it up >.<
While I don't know that splashing green was necessarily an upgrade, the idea that you would have won big had you played the R/B build is just wrong. Playing R/B would not have kept Hellkite Charger from getting Vapor Snared four times. There's nothing particularly wrong with either build.
Also, "doesn't have a firm grasp of the format"? Where do you get that? What's the lesson supposed to be? "Don't play one of the bombiest cards in the format because it might get Mind Controlled four times?"
The deck could have posted a winning record, I believe, just as easily as it went 0-3 drop. One of the hazards of judging a sealed pool or build based on results is that the sample size is extremely small. I don't believe that the build is an 0-3 build; it's just bad fortune that in at least five instances a card that normally wins the game when it hits didn't work out, and in four of those it worked against.
I like the deck idea (right now, anything that isn't Jund looks good), but I do have some issues with it. First, building a deck to beat Jund seems like a good idea, but I'm not sure that you also need to tailor that deck to beat RDW, since I am uncertain that RDW is a major meta game consideration. I am also not sure that the UW control shell is the best place to start with this sort of thing. For one, Iona morph is a very vulnerable strategy, because you not only have to draw into both combo pieces, you usually also need to have counter magic up for when you try to cast polymorph or risk having your token removed in response. Given that you run zero negates main and only 2 dispels in the board, this might be a large problem (casting polymorph with cancel mana up is not a winning plan). Also, considering that you only have 6 token producers (4garden, 1 coup, 1 elspeth) and only Jace to speed up your draws, you run into the risk of not drawing the right piece in time. Also, 3 iona is far, far too many, since you will almost never hardcast it (even with chalice), and seeing one in your opening 7 is an effective mulligan. Maybe 2 if they somehow manage to remove the first, but 3 is totally overkill.
One of the major problems with Ionamorph (which I have tested a lot pre-WWK and a fair amount since) is that you are very often too slow to be able to do anything with it. Yeah, it's a cute trick against RDW or Vampires where they have no chance to remove it and you can calmly draw into the rest of your deck, but if you don't get it out very early, it might be too late to matter. Iona can't swing into night hawk or bloodwitch, prevents you from wrathing the board (profitably) and won't stop them from recurring bloodghast into kalista highborne's life drain. Progenitus at least has the advantage of being able to race pretty much anything. Moreover, Iona becomes increasingly worse against decks which aren't monocolored (most of the current meta). It often feels like it was either win-more (because if you're controlling the game to the point where you can resolve the combo, you can often just win through other means) or dead cards in hand that you really wish were other things. It just feels like a lot of the time, you're running a worse version of UW control with a shakier manabase (that you aren't even taking full advantage of; if you must play Bant control, at least up the bant charm count, that card is amazing in the current meta).
Gotta agree with dunkle_stille here, to some degree. Splashing for green seems greedy, and uneccesarry.
I don`t like the way you show the curve in your deck. Displaying the multikicker-cards at 1 isn`t helping you see/show the curve, and I personally put removal at the spot in the curve equal to it`s manacost, -if- it`s reasonable to play it at that turn (compare Punishing Fire to Dead Reckoning and Magma Rift). Furthermore, I believe it had been helpfull if you showed the cards that didn`t make the cut in the same picture, or near it, so that figuring out what mistakes were made in deckbuilding would be easier for the forum-dwellers. I absolutely believe you got greedy with Occultist (at least in the BR-build), and that more 2-drops should be added (specifically Blood Seeker)
All in all, it`s nice to get an article on Zen/WWK limited, and I have no problem that it`s being done by someone who doesn`t have a firm grasp of the format.
Have you tested using the U or W zendikons as Polymorph targets? Sticking one on a Khalni could be nice. My guess is the U would often set you back a land drop and the W is too expensive, but I was wondering if you actually tested them or not.
Make all non-creature non-land cards banned... This SHOULD be a format, but not TRIBAL. There are enough creatures with special abilities to make it fun.
Make it Classic Tribal Singleton... I agree, too forced. Not fun.
Make it Double Tribal Classic... I like the idea, but why not just up the creature requirement to 30 and keep deck at 60 minimum. More simple.
Ban the BUNNIES* out of the format... I'd like to know the actual curse word used here, per the *footnote. Either way, it sounds like a long, complicated list to me.
Change Tribal Apocalypse to a swiss tournament... Again, you use the word tournament. Why wouldn't someone use the best possible deck they have in a tournament with a prize. Shard Phoenix should just start a leader board for "points" if everyone is so into FUN.
Anyone interested in a "fun, creature based, tribal type game" should talk to DarkPact_13 from the Ebon Dawn clan. Ebon Dawn already has extensive rule sets built on said type of game. They have a website with a leader board and "medals". I enjoyed playing their events a lot and the conversations above made me recall them. They also banned instant win conditions and land destruction, which help the environment become more friendly. I suggest Ebon Dawn to anyone. Talk to MTGO screen name DarkPact_13.
...this weekend when when I won an avatar for winning a wwkx3 draft (I think?). I saw it pop up in the "new cards" window and assumed there must be a bug, then forgot to look later.
"What's the point if you can play some version of Control, Aggro, or Combo in almost every format?"
I don't think this is a problem in any format but tribal.
Magic chose 5 colors when they created the game so it would be dynamic. You're supposed to have a deck and play style available, which fit the way you want to play. Unfortunately, most people just complain about types of cards instead of trying to better their collection, their play, and find a way to beat that card type. They just cry, or post a game description that says "no counters" or "no land d".
On second thought, let's make the tribal format, only green creatures and basic forests.
IMO, Tribal is a "FUN" format for people who don't like tournament play. And I don't know who said it, but it was a TOURNAMENT. If you expect people to bring friendly decks to a tournament... I don't know what to say. The point is to win YES? Tribal players like creature based gameplay. Just make the format all creatures and the "economical" players and "counter/land d/anything not creature" haters can have their format.
While Vangaurd may be dead as a tournament format, it is not dead to the casual player. The very fact that new cards are being put out every couple of months means that decks can constantly be evolving. Yes, the community is much much much smaller now, but it is by no means dead. The true fans will continue to play it, and for them Cotton's article is very relevant.
It's probably not was relevant for faceless cowards who hide under anonymity so they can say things that a massively offensive.
How did you immediately dismiss ruin ghost? I agree your white is not amazing, but for Ruin Ghost to not even get a passing mention as a strong card in your pool...
Depends very much on how you plan to mill them out. If you only have the Mill and no mass draw effects like Howling Mine or Font of Mythos. Then Gaea's Blessing hoses mill quite effectively. HOWEVER, any instant speed draw or Howling Mine effects keep Gaea's Blessing from doing too much damage, simply by forcing an opponent to run two main deck. Personally, I use Howling Mine. Very effective.
well i cant wait to the fight thats going to break out, but till then....
i found you can go three colors, as long as you dont have a triple bbb in one of the costs. the eye also helps too. of course this was in my draft and not sealed, but thats me.
6 of each color, there you go, hardly a mana issue, but with 18 lands it could still happen, joke but still happen.
now im not nearly as good as dunkle, so ill stop right there...
I would love to hear your reasons for playing or not playing an avatar instead of the fact that you would or wouldn't. Say something about how you dislike Jhoira being random and not very skill intensive or how Karona takes you back to playing against Powerstruggle in Shandalar.
Even though vanguards are dead i can feel you were very fond of them. We can see the link and what the cards do, but I (and maybe we) want to read about what that card does for you and maybe we'll understand your ratings better if you decide to share that with us.
Most red decks indeed leave a red mana open after game one (slowing them down a turn in the process) Against those decks you either target a Kor Firewalker or wait for a Refraction trap and bring the bad news.
As we speak i'm testing against multicolor removal decks. and let me give you an update:
- I've tried Empyrial Archangel, but basilisk collar and vampire nighthawks keep killing it.
- Terrastodon is awesome. I'm thinking about playing 2 or 3 in the sideboard
Martial Coup is really a 1 off. Playing it for less than 5 is a strong signal and the tokens become "flagbearers".
Elspeth is nice, but if i had more room, i would rather add an extra Jace the Mind Sculptor. I've already cut some control cards and going even lower will crack the shell.
Against Zvi Bant i'd probably just name blue disabling rafiq and finest hour. After sideboard they also lose Mind control and bant charm. They don't run any removal and you'll be racing with removal for three turns.
Progentius would be worse, because they can drop a rafiq or finest hour and kill you. In this matchup i love the khalni "Time Warp" gardens.
Thanks for your input though, i can use all the help i can get from you. More than often i steal some knowledge from your articles to perfect my game.
This is a very cool deck! I have a couple of questions;
Why are you only running one each of elspeth and martial coup? They both look like they're very important for the deck (preventing you dying and providing half the combo!)
Do red decks not tend to burn the token you're targetting in response to the polymorph?
Would it be worth having a couple of progeniti in the board? They seem like they might be better than iona against jund or that zvi-bant deck?
deck looks like a lot of fun, i woulda liked to see some examples of how it performed personally, but the strat seems sound tho the price tag is a little hefty
Well, actually the first build was pretty good. Cut the Footing for Akoum Battlesinger and you get a decent deck. Good Removal, sick bombs, a nice curve and some synergies. I guess cutting the minotaur for Grim Discovery is also a possiblity, to reuse your Allys or the Dragon, but the Minotaur can at least block a fatty.
Sad that you ended up splashing for 3 mediocre cards. In a deck, that wants BBB on Turn 6. There's a rule of thumb for splashing - either it's a bomb or a pretty good removal. You just made your deck worse by adding unnessacary cards and crippled your manabase. And Khalni Garden as splash is so lol. In Alara I'd go with it, but in this block, devours doesnt exists. You will lose many games with the tapped land.
With skill and maybe a bit of luck, the first build can make 4-0. The build you ended up screams for a classical 0-2 drop, and so it went ( 0-3 even ).
At least you learned to never ever splash again with nearly no fixing for mediocre cards in an otherwise pretty good deck. At least I hope so.
You really should have waited to play that Charger in your first game. Play some other dudes and bait his removal. You're going to win with that dragon and you don't want him to blow it up >.<
While I don't know that splashing green was necessarily an upgrade, the idea that you would have won big had you played the R/B build is just wrong. Playing R/B would not have kept Hellkite Charger from getting Vapor Snared four times. There's nothing particularly wrong with either build.
Also, "doesn't have a firm grasp of the format"? Where do you get that? What's the lesson supposed to be? "Don't play one of the bombiest cards in the format because it might get Mind Controlled four times?"
The deck could have posted a winning record, I believe, just as easily as it went 0-3 drop. One of the hazards of judging a sealed pool or build based on results is that the sample size is extremely small. I don't believe that the build is an 0-3 build; it's just bad fortune that in at least five instances a card that normally wins the game when it hits didn't work out, and in four of those it worked against.
I like the deck idea (right now, anything that isn't Jund looks good), but I do have some issues with it. First, building a deck to beat Jund seems like a good idea, but I'm not sure that you also need to tailor that deck to beat RDW, since I am uncertain that RDW is a major meta game consideration. I am also not sure that the UW control shell is the best place to start with this sort of thing. For one, Iona morph is a very vulnerable strategy, because you not only have to draw into both combo pieces, you usually also need to have counter magic up for when you try to cast polymorph or risk having your token removed in response. Given that you run zero negates main and only 2 dispels in the board, this might be a large problem (casting polymorph with cancel mana up is not a winning plan). Also, considering that you only have 6 token producers (4garden, 1 coup, 1 elspeth) and only Jace to speed up your draws, you run into the risk of not drawing the right piece in time. Also, 3 iona is far, far too many, since you will almost never hardcast it (even with chalice), and seeing one in your opening 7 is an effective mulligan. Maybe 2 if they somehow manage to remove the first, but 3 is totally overkill.
One of the major problems with Ionamorph (which I have tested a lot pre-WWK and a fair amount since) is that you are very often too slow to be able to do anything with it. Yeah, it's a cute trick against RDW or Vampires where they have no chance to remove it and you can calmly draw into the rest of your deck, but if you don't get it out very early, it might be too late to matter. Iona can't swing into night hawk or bloodwitch, prevents you from wrathing the board (profitably) and won't stop them from recurring bloodghast into kalista highborne's life drain. Progenitus at least has the advantage of being able to race pretty much anything. Moreover, Iona becomes increasingly worse against decks which aren't monocolored (most of the current meta). It often feels like it was either win-more (because if you're controlling the game to the point where you can resolve the combo, you can often just win through other means) or dead cards in hand that you really wish were other things. It just feels like a lot of the time, you're running a worse version of UW control with a shakier manabase (that you aren't even taking full advantage of; if you must play Bant control, at least up the bant charm count, that card is amazing in the current meta).
Gotta agree with dunkle_stille here, to some degree. Splashing for green seems greedy, and uneccesarry.
I don`t like the way you show the curve in your deck. Displaying the multikicker-cards at 1 isn`t helping you see/show the curve, and I personally put removal at the spot in the curve equal to it`s manacost, -if- it`s reasonable to play it at that turn (compare Punishing Fire to Dead Reckoning and Magma Rift). Furthermore, I believe it had been helpfull if you showed the cards that didn`t make the cut in the same picture, or near it, so that figuring out what mistakes were made in deckbuilding would be easier for the forum-dwellers. I absolutely believe you got greedy with Occultist (at least in the BR-build), and that more 2-drops should be added (specifically Blood Seeker)
All in all, it`s nice to get an article on Zen/WWK limited, and I have no problem that it`s being done by someone who doesn`t have a firm grasp of the format.
/me erects a "Please don't feed the trolls" sign pointing at Anonymous.
Have you tested using the U or W zendikons as Polymorph targets? Sticking one on a Khalni could be nice. My guess is the U would often set you back a land drop and the W is too expensive, but I was wondering if you actually tested them or not.
This guy writes for everyone he possibly can just to get the $. He's not a bad writer, but then again, he's not a great player either -_-
Make all non-creature non-land cards banned... This SHOULD be a format, but not TRIBAL. There are enough creatures with special abilities to make it fun.
Make it Classic Tribal Singleton... I agree, too forced. Not fun.
Make it Double Tribal Classic... I like the idea, but why not just up the creature requirement to 30 and keep deck at 60 minimum. More simple.
Ban the BUNNIES* out of the format... I'd like to know the actual curse word used here, per the *footnote. Either way, it sounds like a long, complicated list to me.
Change Tribal Apocalypse to a swiss tournament... Again, you use the word tournament. Why wouldn't someone use the best possible deck they have in a tournament with a prize. Shard Phoenix should just start a leader board for "points" if everyone is so into FUN.
Anyone interested in a "fun, creature based, tribal type game" should talk to DarkPact_13 from the Ebon Dawn clan. Ebon Dawn already has extensive rule sets built on said type of game. They have a website with a leader board and "medals". I enjoyed playing their events a lot and the conversations above made me recall them. They also banned instant win conditions and land destruction, which help the environment become more friendly. I suggest Ebon Dawn to anyone. Talk to MTGO screen name DarkPact_13.
...this weekend when when I won an avatar for winning a wwkx3 draft (I think?). I saw it pop up in the "new cards" window and assumed there must be a bug, then forgot to look later.
Not sure how many, but I know some did fire this weekend.
"What's the point if you can play some version of Control, Aggro, or Combo in almost every format?"
I don't think this is a problem in any format but tribal.
Magic chose 5 colors when they created the game so it would be dynamic. You're supposed to have a deck and play style available, which fit the way you want to play. Unfortunately, most people just complain about types of cards instead of trying to better their collection, their play, and find a way to beat that card type. They just cry, or post a game description that says "no counters" or "no land d".
On second thought, let's make the tribal format, only green creatures and basic forests.
IMO, Tribal is a "FUN" format for people who don't like tournament play. And I don't know who said it, but it was a TOURNAMENT. If you expect people to bring friendly decks to a tournament... I don't know what to say. The point is to win YES? Tribal players like creature based gameplay. Just make the format all creatures and the "economical" players and "counter/land d/anything not creature" haters can have their format.
New vanguards are printed without stas... not really good for a new influx of strategies if you ask me.
While Vangaurd may be dead as a tournament format, it is not dead to the casual player. The very fact that new cards are being put out every couple of months means that decks can constantly be evolving. Yes, the community is much much much smaller now, but it is by no means dead. The true fans will continue to play it, and for them Cotton's article is very relevant.
It's probably not was relevant for faceless cowards who hide under anonymity so they can say things that a massively offensive.
How did you immediately dismiss ruin ghost? I agree your white is not amazing, but for Ruin Ghost to not even get a passing mention as a strong card in your pool...
Depends very much on how you plan to mill them out. If you only have the Mill and no mass draw effects like Howling Mine or Font of Mythos. Then Gaea's Blessing hoses mill quite effectively. HOWEVER, any instant speed draw or Howling Mine effects keep Gaea's Blessing from doing too much damage, simply by forcing an opponent to run two main deck. Personally, I use Howling Mine. Very effective.
Cotton just needs to stop, Vanguard is over and his articles help no one.
well i cant wait to the fight thats going to break out, but till then....
i found you can go three colors, as long as you dont have a triple bbb in one of the costs. the eye also helps too. of course this was in my draft and not sealed, but thats me.
6 of each color, there you go, hardly a mana issue, but with 18 lands it could still happen, joke but still happen.
now im not nearly as good as dunkle, so ill stop right there...
Let me be the first to comment on your article.
I would love to hear your reasons for playing or not playing an avatar instead of the fact that you would or wouldn't. Say something about how you dislike Jhoira being random and not very skill intensive or how Karona takes you back to playing against Powerstruggle in Shandalar.
Even though vanguards are dead i can feel you were very fond of them. We can see the link and what the cards do, but I (and maybe we) want to read about what that card does for you and maybe we'll understand your ratings better if you decide to share that with us.
Most red decks indeed leave a red mana open after game one (slowing them down a turn in the process) Against those decks you either target a Kor Firewalker or wait for a Refraction trap and bring the bad news.
As we speak i'm testing against multicolor removal decks. and let me give you an update:
- I've tried Empyrial Archangel, but basilisk collar and vampire nighthawks keep killing it.
- Terrastodon is awesome. I'm thinking about playing 2 or 3 in the sideboard
Martial Coup is really a 1 off. Playing it for less than 5 is a strong signal and the tokens become "flagbearers".
Elspeth is nice, but if i had more room, i would rather add an extra Jace the Mind Sculptor. I've already cut some control cards and going even lower will crack the shell.
Against Zvi Bant i'd probably just name blue disabling rafiq and finest hour. After sideboard they also lose Mind control and bant charm. They don't run any removal and you'll be racing with removal for three turns.
Progentius would be worse, because they can drop a rafiq or finest hour and kill you. In this matchup i love the khalni "Time Warp" gardens.
Thanks for your input though, i can use all the help i can get from you. More than often i steal some knowledge from your articles to perfect my game.
Am I missing something or is that a total nombo?
If the zendikon land dies, you get the land back anyway.
Good article as usual. The part about the Hellkite Charger was hilarious. Made me laugh for a few minutes.
This is a very cool deck! I have a couple of questions;
Why are you only running one each of elspeth and martial coup? They both look like they're very important for the deck (preventing you dying and providing half the combo!)
Do red decks not tend to burn the token you're targetting in response to the polymorph?
Would it be worth having a couple of progeniti in the board? They seem like they might be better than iona against jund or that zvi-bant deck?
Anyway, nice article!
deck looks like a lot of fun, i woulda liked to see some examples of how it performed personally, but the strat seems sound tho the price tag is a little hefty
Nice how you missbuild it ( big times ).
Well, actually the first build was pretty good. Cut the Footing for Akoum Battlesinger and you get a decent deck. Good Removal, sick bombs, a nice curve and some synergies. I guess cutting the minotaur for Grim Discovery is also a possiblity, to reuse your Allys or the Dragon, but the Minotaur can at least block a fatty.
Sad that you ended up splashing for 3 mediocre cards. In a deck, that wants BBB on Turn 6. There's a rule of thumb for splashing - either it's a bomb or a pretty good removal. You just made your deck worse by adding unnessacary cards and crippled your manabase. And Khalni Garden as splash is so lol. In Alara I'd go with it, but in this block, devours doesnt exists. You will lose many games with the tapped land.
With skill and maybe a bit of luck, the first build can make 4-0. The build you ended up screams for a classical 0-2 drop, and so it went ( 0-3 even ).
At least you learned to never ever splash again with nearly no fixing for mediocre cards in an otherwise pretty good deck. At least I hope so.