Holy crap that's alot of deck summaries! I admit I only got to Reanimator for now, but without any knowledge or previous interest in the Legacy format you me interested, so job well done. I love articles that are packed with content.
I guess the pie chart may help answering this, but are all the decks you listed tier 1 or are some overall stronger in the current meta than others? Another area that I'm curious about is the overall price to build these various archetypes.
Shard take a chill pill buddy.
As I wrote many times, I love to kid - if I was a magic card, I'd probably be the "Harvester of Hyperbole!" I've used it in the past...not often, but I have...so I guess I'm pathetic. Now that the official rules/legal speak have been pointed to, I know better - at the time of this writing, I thought it a grey area and only meant my ongoing commentary to cause some laughter in the casual reader.
BTW - the whole reason superstitious folks say "bless you" is the old belief that sneezing gives the devil a moment to steal your soul...because you actually do go unconscious if only for a nanosecond :) Smile dude, life is short...(wish there was a humorous font sometimes!)
I would claim that ignoring cards that don't have a relevant second data point would be much better solution
than rendering 2 of the lists (% ones) completely useless and 1 nearly useless.
All I can tell from the lists is, which Worldwake cards start high priced and which are bottom of the barrel.
You are not going to get penalized for seeing your opponents hand in a reflection. However, if you do not tell them you can see it or stop doing it you will get penalized as that is against the rules.
One of the Ruels had this happen, perhaps someone could look it up in the event coverage archive if you don't believe me.
I gotta say you might be a bit off base here. Or at least coming on way too strong. I don't think a single reader on Puremtgo.com has hate for Hammy. In fact Id say he is by and large the most popular writer here (no slight to any others intended of course). So I think what this is, is just the usual grousing that goes on when things don't work as expected. No need for the rant or the chide.
part and parcel of how hamtastic gets his prices and makes the fabulous charts that everyone loves is based on a program (see his last article for the inside scoop). because of that method, sometimes prices might seem "wildly inaccurate" but that's expected with the massive fluctuations as a result of the prerelease weekend, followed by packs being sold at the store, then followed by premier/daily events.
i'd rather have these price charts then no price charts at all - ever. deal with it.
To be honest if you accidentally catch a glimpse of something then that is perfectly fine and i don't think anyone could say anything. But if you notice a pattern then abuse it to your advantage like continously looking in a guy glasses for the reflection then while you may never get caught it does make you a cheat. But hey if youre the kind of person that enjoys cheating in order to win then go for it. And by the way the sneezing thing is retarded. Seriously, if you are going to use things like that for your argument then you are pathetic.
As usual? I forgot our long history of analogies - a whopping 1...forgive me. (and that one was in jest...relax!)
I like your logic breakdown...I was just trying to put some humor into you guys...lighten up! Pretty easy to pick apart a joke, just next time try and use a paraprosdokian phrase to do it :)
rule 3.11 here I come.
I can see it now.
My opponent sneezes, (which medically is a brief blink of unconsciousness) - I notify the judge of this advantage, as I 'could have' possibly gained some sort of one...I think I can find so many of these,...my clock will run out next paper tourney, I'll stick to online probably :)
I'm not advocating 'actively pursuing" this - I sometimes just "see" nanosecond glimpses - and when that happens I'm not going to ignore any info gained, nor can I...how can you 'selectively forget' info? (more on this below)
You guys need to relax.
The last time I gained knowledge of a physical card was in said tourney almost a decade ago. I didn't "set up mirrors" as some of you are contorting my original phrasing -- my opponent had a massive wrist watch, and obviously I was staring at something so oversized...it was at that moment I saw the flicker of a Flametongue Kavu art...or so I thought, turns out I was right...so I remembered this and wrote of it. Remember it was inverted art that would be hard for Jackson Pollock to recognize - but knowing the majority of the decklist...I was pretty sure I was right.
Was I actively persuing this...no. It happened, my eyes saw it.
Have I ever 'set up any reflective medium?" - no.
Should I find myself in a paper tourney anytime soon...I'm going to take your guys' advice and mention any slight edge I have...perhaps the judge will get tired of being called over so often and I'll get booted for being too nice...then the gloves of sneaky will really come off!
Seriously, thanks for the comments guys. Love this forum, learn so much every time...hope your not taking me too seriously, I love to kid ;)
You know I waited til i could find documentation of this. According to 3.11 of the Tournament Rules Guide I do believe this would fall under actively pursuing hidden information. As in if a judge catches you looking in a mirror at an opponents hand or he has reason to suspect you looking in the reflections on glasses, it counts as a disqualification. The exact rules quote that I think apples is "Players must not actively attempt to gain information hidden from them." That is what you are doing. Moral grey area or not. It's legally wrong.
Old lady = opponent
Drop money = see hand
Do the right thing = tell them / don't peek
YOU decided that a more fitting analogy was to take the old lady out of the equation, aka the opponent. You stumble upon a person's hand of cards but don't know who it belongs to! Oh noes! Should you take the cards?!
My apologies. The first "man up" answer should start with "you're right," but the second shouldn't, it was a mistype. You could simply say your moral compass is different than my own, aka "waiting until the old lady leaves and taking the money" is okay in your books. It's not breaking any law so there's no wrong answer by law. And hey, maybe if the old lady found out she'd give you a high-five and say, "Man I should have been more aware...nice one!"
No, there's no grey area in your analogies. No one will fault you for reading your opponent in poker and in Magic. It's actually encouraged. People WILL fault you for taking a peek at the opponent's hand with reflections, as myself and others have already pointed out. This is very cut and dry. You can't mix these things up, and it's silly for you to keep trying to do so.
I don't even know what you mean about this "side-game of sorts." I'll guess you're referring to our argument? Correct me if I'm mistaken. If I am correct, then you really need to learn to take criticism instead of clinging to failing arguments.
"Saw something I shouldn't" is a very vague scenario isn't it? Saw what and in what way? But I do have an answer -- do whatever you want. I have my own morals and will voice my opinion, but I wouldn't force you to play by them. Hopefully based on our morals we could agree upon playing by the rules of Magic. If you used a mirror I wasn't aware of to peek at my hand, I would lose my respect for you if I found out because I find the behavior to be underhanded. If that doesn't bother you because you don't find it underhanded, then who cares right? Only the people who feel the same way as I do, and that's not you apparently.
You don't have to obey my morals. What I expect you to do is not to use such clearly bad analogies that do nothing to strengthen your argument. That's all there is to it.
@DOC - Both of your "man up" answers ask that the first clause be, "YOUR RIGHT" - I simply don't think you are.
Your surely going to win the popular and public vote...have fun with that.
My analogies were put there to do exactly that...show the grey area. I've been had by these, and when it happens my attitude isn't "..oh what a cheat!" It was more, "Man I should have been more aware...nice one!" I even feel like this side-game of sorts has its own strategies and fun to be had. Not standing atop some magical moral soapbox the second I don't have the upperhand.
I'm curious - if you and I were playing paper magic, and I saw something I shouldn't - what should I then do?
I understand your points, please don't expect me to OBEY yours.
Seriously? Dude, you were encouraging using reflections to look at the opponent's hand. You and I both know that's way different than any of your examples, from the "anonymous money" analogy to these. Who are you trying to fool here?
If anything, you're trying to defend the "it's okay to watch an old lady drop money by accident and claim it when she leaves" analogy. That strikes me a disgusting and close to theft. Similarly, I consider using a reflection that your opponent isn't aware of and playing around that knowledge to be underhanded and poor sportsmanship. What would you say to the person if he caught you? "It's your fault you didn't notice that mirror behind you in the corner that has an angle of your hand! PLAY TO WIIIIIIN!!!!" Sorry man, but that's not going to win you any respect. Reading a person's body language in poker / Magic is far different than peeking at their cards, there's no chance you can convince me or anyone else with half a brain that they're at all close.
If you really want to go with the over-the-top sarcastic examples, buddy I CAN go there, trust me. And it's not a game that I'm beat at easily. But I can also discuss things in a mature manner. Which way do you really want to do this? Really, just manning up and saying either, "You're right, my bad on that one," or "You're right, my moral compass is far different from yours" would both suffice. These purposely incorrect analogies do not.
While I agree it being thrown in 8th was pretty pointless considering the existence of Congregate which is basically the exact same card if im remembering it correctly. Seeing it combined with the remainder of the three kingdom cards though does make sense in a way since every draft format normally has a ridiculously lame life-gain card. Thought it and Alabaster Potion in the same set makes no sense
well technically since they only got released last friday their were no charts....so complaining about growth doesnt really matter. The prices wax and wane too drastcially on the back of release weekend plus a pro tour anyways to have any accurate data. So complaining about it is genrally pointless anyways
Holy crap that's alot of deck summaries! I admit I only got to Reanimator for now, but without any knowledge or previous interest in the Legacy format you me interested, so job well done. I love articles that are packed with content.
I guess the pie chart may help answering this, but are all the decks you listed tier 1 or are some overall stronger in the current meta than others? Another area that I'm curious about is the overall price to build these various archetypes.
Nice article dude. Some great tips. Lots of haters in this forum.
funny....who'd imagine that the very last sentence would have stirred up so much
The reason Std was chosen is beacuse I have been basing the decks on the most current format that the win condition card is in.
Great link! Thanks for the info - this is spot on what were were talking about! So officially...my bad :) It was fun to write of however !
Shard take a chill pill buddy.
As I wrote many times, I love to kid - if I was a magic card, I'd probably be the "Harvester of Hyperbole!" I've used it in the past...not often, but I have...so I guess I'm pathetic. Now that the official rules/legal speak have been pointed to, I know better - at the time of this writing, I thought it a grey area and only meant my ongoing commentary to cause some laughter in the casual reader.
BTW - the whole reason superstitious folks say "bless you" is the old belief that sneezing gives the devil a moment to steal your soul...because you actually do go unconscious if only for a nanosecond :) Smile dude, life is short...(wish there was a humorous font sometimes!)
if MED 3 is no longer sold how will ppl get the new dual lands and mana drains?
I would claim that ignoring cards that don't have a relevant second data point would be much better solution
than rendering 2 of the lists (% ones) completely useless and 1 nearly useless.
All I can tell from the lists is, which Worldwake cards start high priced and which are bottom of the barrel.
As I posted above, before reading all this below, http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/gpbri07/blo... is the situation I'm talking about.
(though I think he ultimately got dqed for lying)
You are not going to get penalized for seeing your opponents hand in a reflection. However, if you do not tell them you can see it or stop doing it you will get penalized as that is against the rules.
One of the Ruels had this happen, perhaps someone could look it up in the event coverage archive if you don't believe me.
I gotta say you might be a bit off base here. Or at least coming on way too strong. I don't think a single reader on Puremtgo.com has hate for Hammy. In fact Id say he is by and large the most popular writer here (no slight to any others intended of course). So I think what this is, is just the usual grousing that goes on when things don't work as expected. No need for the rant or the chide.
y'all should stop drinking the haterade.
part and parcel of how hamtastic gets his prices and makes the fabulous charts that everyone loves is based on a program (see his last article for the inside scoop). because of that method, sometimes prices might seem "wildly inaccurate" but that's expected with the massive fluctuations as a result of the prerelease weekend, followed by packs being sold at the store, then followed by premier/daily events.
i'd rather have these price charts then no price charts at all - ever. deal with it.
rainin6 out-
p.s. hamtastic = the man.
To be honest if you accidentally catch a glimpse of something then that is perfectly fine and i don't think anyone could say anything. But if you notice a pattern then abuse it to your advantage like continously looking in a guy glasses for the reflection then while you may never get caught it does make you a cheat. But hey if youre the kind of person that enjoys cheating in order to win then go for it. And by the way the sneezing thing is retarded. Seriously, if you are going to use things like that for your argument then you are pathetic.
As usual? I forgot our long history of analogies - a whopping 1...forgive me. (and that one was in jest...relax!)
I like your logic breakdown...I was just trying to put some humor into you guys...lighten up! Pretty easy to pick apart a joke, just next time try and use a paraprosdokian phrase to do it :)
rule 3.11 here I come.
I can see it now.
My opponent sneezes, (which medically is a brief blink of unconsciousness) - I notify the judge of this advantage, as I 'could have' possibly gained some sort of one...I think I can find so many of these,...my clock will run out next paper tourney, I'll stick to online probably :)
Well said. Thanks for the official number too!
I'm not advocating 'actively pursuing" this - I sometimes just "see" nanosecond glimpses - and when that happens I'm not going to ignore any info gained, nor can I...how can you 'selectively forget' info? (more on this below)
You guys need to relax.
The last time I gained knowledge of a physical card was in said tourney almost a decade ago. I didn't "set up mirrors" as some of you are contorting my original phrasing -- my opponent had a massive wrist watch, and obviously I was staring at something so oversized...it was at that moment I saw the flicker of a Flametongue Kavu art...or so I thought, turns out I was right...so I remembered this and wrote of it. Remember it was inverted art that would be hard for Jackson Pollock to recognize - but knowing the majority of the decklist...I was pretty sure I was right.
Was I actively persuing this...no. It happened, my eyes saw it.
Have I ever 'set up any reflective medium?" - no.
Should I find myself in a paper tourney anytime soon...I'm going to take your guys' advice and mention any slight edge I have...perhaps the judge will get tired of being called over so often and I'll get booted for being too nice...then the gloves of sneaky will really come off!
Seriously, thanks for the comments guys. Love this forum, learn so much every time...hope your not taking me too seriously, I love to kid ;)
Awesome article! I've been considering getting into Legacy and this is getting bookmarked for sure.
You know I waited til i could find documentation of this. According to 3.11 of the Tournament Rules Guide I do believe this would fall under actively pursuing hidden information. As in if a judge catches you looking in a mirror at an opponents hand or he has reason to suspect you looking in the reflections on glasses, it counts as a disqualification. The exact rules quote that I think apples is "Players must not actively attempt to gain information hidden from them." That is what you are doing. Moral grey area or not. It's legally wrong.
Alabaster Potion at least has the potential to be a combat trick if I am remembering correctly.
No, because your analogy, as usual, was wrong.
Old lady = opponent
Drop money = see hand
Do the right thing = tell them / don't peek
YOU decided that a more fitting analogy was to take the old lady out of the equation, aka the opponent. You stumble upon a person's hand of cards but don't know who it belongs to! Oh noes! Should you take the cards?!
My apologies. The first "man up" answer should start with "you're right," but the second shouldn't, it was a mistype. You could simply say your moral compass is different than my own, aka "waiting until the old lady leaves and taking the money" is okay in your books. It's not breaking any law so there's no wrong answer by law. And hey, maybe if the old lady found out she'd give you a high-five and say, "Man I should have been more aware...nice one!"
No, there's no grey area in your analogies. No one will fault you for reading your opponent in poker and in Magic. It's actually encouraged. People WILL fault you for taking a peek at the opponent's hand with reflections, as myself and others have already pointed out. This is very cut and dry. You can't mix these things up, and it's silly for you to keep trying to do so.
I don't even know what you mean about this "side-game of sorts." I'll guess you're referring to our argument? Correct me if I'm mistaken. If I am correct, then you really need to learn to take criticism instead of clinging to failing arguments.
"Saw something I shouldn't" is a very vague scenario isn't it? Saw what and in what way? But I do have an answer -- do whatever you want. I have my own morals and will voice my opinion, but I wouldn't force you to play by them. Hopefully based on our morals we could agree upon playing by the rules of Magic. If you used a mirror I wasn't aware of to peek at my hand, I would lose my respect for you if I found out because I find the behavior to be underhanded. If that doesn't bother you because you don't find it underhanded, then who cares right? Only the people who feel the same way as I do, and that's not you apparently.
You don't have to obey my morals. What I expect you to do is not to use such clearly bad analogies that do nothing to strengthen your argument. That's all there is to it.
How did you get it's OK to watch an old lady drop money by accident and claim it when she leaves out of my above writings?!
I clearly said the opposite, my point was that if you FIND it, it'd be quite silly to go asking people if they lost it.
I very clearly...hold on, I'll just copy paste what I said here so it's super clear:
“…of course if I saw some old lady drop it, I'd do the right thing...all relative…”
Now how is that "trying to defend" the theft of an old lady?
If you'd like I can send you some cheese shoe laces, so that your foot will taste a bit better in your mouth :)
@DOC - Both of your "man up" answers ask that the first clause be, "YOUR RIGHT" - I simply don't think you are.
Your surely going to win the popular and public vote...have fun with that.
My analogies were put there to do exactly that...show the grey area. I've been had by these, and when it happens my attitude isn't "..oh what a cheat!" It was more, "Man I should have been more aware...nice one!" I even feel like this side-game of sorts has its own strategies and fun to be had. Not standing atop some magical moral soapbox the second I don't have the upperhand.
I'm curious - if you and I were playing paper magic, and I saw something I shouldn't - what should I then do?
I understand your points, please don't expect me to OBEY yours.
Seriously? Dude, you were encouraging using reflections to look at the opponent's hand. You and I both know that's way different than any of your examples, from the "anonymous money" analogy to these. Who are you trying to fool here?
If anything, you're trying to defend the "it's okay to watch an old lady drop money by accident and claim it when she leaves" analogy. That strikes me a disgusting and close to theft. Similarly, I consider using a reflection that your opponent isn't aware of and playing around that knowledge to be underhanded and poor sportsmanship. What would you say to the person if he caught you? "It's your fault you didn't notice that mirror behind you in the corner that has an angle of your hand! PLAY TO WIIIIIIN!!!!" Sorry man, but that's not going to win you any respect. Reading a person's body language in poker / Magic is far different than peeking at their cards, there's no chance you can convince me or anyone else with half a brain that they're at all close.
If you really want to go with the over-the-top sarcastic examples, buddy I CAN go there, trust me. And it's not a game that I'm beat at easily. But I can also discuss things in a mature manner. Which way do you really want to do this? Really, just manning up and saying either, "You're right, my bad on that one," or "You're right, my moral compass is far different from yours" would both suffice. These purposely incorrect analogies do not.
While I agree it being thrown in 8th was pretty pointless considering the existence of Congregate which is basically the exact same card if im remembering it correctly. Seeing it combined with the remainder of the three kingdom cards though does make sense in a way since every draft format normally has a ridiculously lame life-gain card. Thought it and Alabaster Potion in the same set makes no sense
well technically since they only got released last friday their were no charts....so complaining about growth doesnt really matter. The prices wax and wane too drastcially on the back of release weekend plus a pro tour anyways to have any accurate data. So complaining about it is genrally pointless anyways