Mirage block did have some graveyard elements, but my point was that Odyssey was the first to really make the graveyard a focal point in the game.
The U/R Magnivore deck was a top 4 list from States back when it was legal, you're right I probably could have picked a more optimal list - but I was just trying to get the basic idea out there.
I missed the Rift Bolt, you're definitely right.
I know I could have X=0'd that Banefire, I didn't have nearly enough mana to burn him out with one spell - I needed two.
Thanks for the feedback - and thanks keeping me honest!
Of all your proposals, the only one which raises a red flag in my eyes is the ext-only one. We fought so hard to keep the pool open when they tried to reduce it to standard, and that same principle still applies today. Onslaught block, the first dedicated tribal block and the one to which we probably owe the existence of the format, has rotated out of extended. A large number of 'name a tribe' utility spells have gone with it. We'd be cutting ourselves off from some of the best cards which would only see play in the format, for relatively little gain. Looking further back, this also destroys any hope of playing old school tribes varying from the thrulls of the MEDs through to the knights, djinni and efreeti in Mirage, the Licids, Dauthi, Soltari and Kor of Tempest, Dwarves, Cephalids, Centaurs and more. Limiting cards whose only contribution to the format is their creature type is not the way, because in that manner they do contribute.
Now, adapting it to Legacy strikes me as an interesting idea. 'Classic with the brakes on' is perhaps the best hope for the format, but we really do need concistency.
"The utility of your graveyard is almost a given in modern day Magic - but back before Odyssey the graveyard was largely just a place where spells and creatures went after being used up."
Maro said recently that Mirage was the first block to have a graveyard theme, but admittedly it wasn't as blatantly in your face as Odyssey block.
The U/R magnivore deck you featured looks fugly.
"Since I was stuck on two lands, it's the only creature kill in the deck that would have saved me from Glowrider."
Suspended rift bolt?
"I've got double Demonfire in my hand, and the game would be over if I had Banefire instead."
Throw one demonfire with X=0, then you have hellbent and Demonfire is a Banefire... I guess you didn't have enough mana to throw X = his life total? I sure hope you didn't lose this one because you weren't aware of the hellbent ability on demonfire.
It's only happened when I've finished a draft and then load a constructed deck in the deck editor.
Yes, I actually replace the lands, and put the other lands back in the collection, not the sideboard. I didn't know you could do it without matching up all the cards (basic lands).
I haven't experienced any deck errors when adding basic lands. Are you actually "replacing" lands in step 3? i.e., moving any lands that are in your pool out of it?
I build my deck without adding lands at all, save, load in regular editor, add cool lands, resave, load in event editor and have had no problems.
If you plan on doing consecutive events, then a restart is required or you get that error. It doesn't handle back-to-back well at all.
Godot has explained how to do this in his previous articles. I've done it with full view Zendikar lands. The only problem I've had with it is that after I've done it, my deck editor occasionally gives me errors relating to my deck not matching the sealed deck. The only way I can get rid of these errors is to restart Magic Online.
1. Construct your deck as normal.
2. Save your deck using the save button in the draft deck editor screen.
3. Load your deck in the deck editor and simply replace the basic lands with whatever basic lands you want to use.
4. Save your deck with the new lands.
5. Load your deck in the deck construction screen.
6. Submit your deck.
dude awesome article..
probably your best one so far, as you know i love the old lists, the history and the evolution of archtypes.
keep it up and no, you.
Also what about cutting white in the wish[gbr] list throwing in pulse on top of the deeds
going up to more basics and acidic slime looks baller in sur a deathtouch creeping mold.
ur good indeed! i think time has set in with zzz and the days of w/b aggro are kinda of gone and now some people go for u/g right from the get go, still, i too look forward to world wake coming into play
Really cool idea and I really appreciate the work that you put into doing this. While its easy to debate the actual meaning of the data you collected, it's great just to have access to it.
I have to agree with a previous poster in that this type of data is probably more useful in identifying what the more skilled players are playing, rather than what cards specifically are leading to victories. There pretty much aren't any cards (maybe nighthawk?) whose presence alone can be expected to alter the outcome of a game. As a result, I would expect most cards that the vast majority of players will always play if they are on color, to have a rating that is not significantly different from 50%. Just as you said yourself, Journey should win more, if people actually played it right. I think the same may go for hookmaster here, although maybe it isn't as exciting in sealed as it is in draft. Along the same lines, I think the reason nimbus wings scored so low is that it is exactly the type of card that beginners value quite highly but more experienced players tend to prefer avoiding. It is very hard to agree that the act itself of playing such a card is what lead to a loss. Rather, the act of playing the card indicates that it is more likely that a weaker player is piloting this deck.
I think most players see the banning of (Life from the Loam) and (Crucible of Worlds) as a preemptive banning before (Wasteland) entered the environment. Neither cards was dominating the environment before they were banned.
(Life from the Loam) and (Intuition)/(Gifts Ungiven) create a back-breaking combo together and therefore I don't want to see both sides of that combo unbanned together.
I've put off buying Survival because I also have strong feeling it will be banned sooner rather than later. It's far too powerful with Squee, Dredge, reanimation spells (Discard any creature to get Akroma, discard Akroma to get Loyal Retainers), and a number of other cards.
Tarmotog said: "I do not know much about what is going on in their world but apparently, Imperial Seal is banned on the basis that it's too costly (which is a very relevant factor to formats that want more people playing them)."
Tarmotog said: "Buried Alive, from what I know, apart from assisting the above deck, usually sets up a Genesis recursion or a possible dredge chain. Again, the "no sideboard to cover graveyard" might be the reason for its banning unless there is a stronger reason behind it."
Yes, there's a stronger reasoning behind it's banning: magicplayer.org <-- ctrl-f: "Buried Alive // Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker" (Sorry, can't offer more exact linking as magicplayer's index page doesn't support permalinking of any sort). But in short: Buried alive was originally banned as *theoretically*, Buried Alive + (random) Reanimate spell (3 + 1 mana combo) was a GG of opponent was tapped out, (stack for Buried Alive would be: Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker; Pestermite and Karmic Guide). This was considered too strong a combo.
Tarmotog said: "The most interesting card in that bunch is probably Trinisphere. I've never actually seen a Trinisphere being played in 100 card Singleton which leaves me rather intrigued as to what made it ban-worthy."
The real reason for Trinisphere being banned is that Mishra's Workshop is legal, along with other tempo cards (Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors) played in stax. Turn one Workshop + Trinisphere was considered too unfun and luck pushing. The source is buried somewhere in the forum, (use search for "Trinisphere".) *Edit*, found it: http://magicplayer.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=784&postdays=0&postorder=as...
Tarmotog said: "Enlightened Tutor and Mystical Tutor are very interesting choices because..."
Again, see magicplayer.org index page and do ctrl-f for "Enlightened Tutor" for details.
I think my biggest concern with the banned lists in general is that it is never really explained. It would do worlds of good if the people of who decide the banned list actually gave some explanation as to the decisions that were made. I may be wrong because I haven't been following the banned lists for a very long time but they don't seem to have much in terms of warning or explanation. Simply saying "x is banned" or "no changes to the banned list" doesn't really fill me with a whole lot of confidence that this is being looked at very thoughtfully.
I would prefer something like "Cards x,y, and z are on our watch list, but results indicate that they haven't broken the format." or "Card X is preemptively banned because it is functionally similar to card Y which is already on the banned list" or something like that.
that you did not include cocoa pebbles! I actually made top 4 of a ext ptq back in the day with it losing to sean mckowen and panda burst up in neutral ground, ah memories.
Very nice job sir, if only survival didnt suck in the face of oath. oh well. only 12ish? more months till the legacy/vintage split.
I have wondered this, too. It seems like more expensive cards should win games more frequently than cheaper cards--not because they are necessarily better to have in your deck, but because the very fact you played them means that a lot of things had already worked out well for you earlier in the game. In the future, if there is such a bias, I plan on handicapping more expensive cards accordingly. However, I need to capture more data from more formats before I can do that.
In other news, very, very few games I watched were won or lost on account of mana screw. I was surprised to see that.
We're talking about a format based on creature types being bogged down by old non-creature cards.
Has there ever been a banned creature? The only one I can think of would be Juggernaut.
So why not this.
1) Tribal creature type rules apply.
2) If it's a creature card, it's legal.
3) If it's a non-creature card, it has to be in standard/extended.
I think that addresses most of the concerns... I'm just not sure how difficult it would be to code...
That has to be one of the most unexpected namechecks I've recieved. Excellent article, I love the way you provide a thorough historical analysis.
Mirage block did have some graveyard elements, but my point was that Odyssey was the first to really make the graveyard a focal point in the game.
The U/R Magnivore deck was a top 4 list from States back when it was legal, you're right I probably could have picked a more optimal list - but I was just trying to get the basic idea out there.
I missed the Rift Bolt, you're definitely right.
I know I could have X=0'd that Banefire, I didn't have nearly enough mana to burn him out with one spell - I needed two.
Thanks for the feedback - and thanks keeping me honest!
Of all your proposals, the only one which raises a red flag in my eyes is the ext-only one. We fought so hard to keep the pool open when they tried to reduce it to standard, and that same principle still applies today. Onslaught block, the first dedicated tribal block and the one to which we probably owe the existence of the format, has rotated out of extended. A large number of 'name a tribe' utility spells have gone with it. We'd be cutting ourselves off from some of the best cards which would only see play in the format, for relatively little gain. Looking further back, this also destroys any hope of playing old school tribes varying from the thrulls of the MEDs through to the knights, djinni and efreeti in Mirage, the Licids, Dauthi, Soltari and Kor of Tempest, Dwarves, Cephalids, Centaurs and more. Limiting cards whose only contribution to the format is their creature type is not the way, because in that manner they do contribute.
Now, adapting it to Legacy strikes me as an interesting idea. 'Classic with the brakes on' is perhaps the best hope for the format, but we really do need concistency.
8th pick halo hunter wut?
thx ryan, this was another great article from you.
next time, i'd like to see (read) a theory/strategy article.
keep up the good work
t :)
r3g1
did you ever think to kor skyfisher your cartographer and be able to double pump your landfall creatures at any point?
Yeah, I ended up sideboarding it in a few times.
"The utility of your graveyard is almost a given in modern day Magic - but back before Odyssey the graveyard was largely just a place where spells and creatures went after being used up."
Maro said recently that Mirage was the first block to have a graveyard theme, but admittedly it wasn't as blatantly in your face as Odyssey block.
The U/R magnivore deck you featured looks fugly.
"Since I was stuck on two lands, it's the only creature kill in the deck that would have saved me from Glowrider."
Suspended rift bolt?
"I've got double Demonfire in my hand, and the game would be over if I had Banefire instead."
Throw one demonfire with X=0, then you have hellbent and Demonfire is a Banefire... I guess you didn't have enough mana to throw X = his life total? I sure hope you didn't lose this one because you weren't aware of the hellbent ability on demonfire.
nice deck you ended up with. I do think that the blue rare ally is better than the black one you splashed for though.
It's only happened when I've finished a draft and then load a constructed deck in the deck editor.
Yes, I actually replace the lands, and put the other lands back in the collection, not the sideboard. I didn't know you could do it without matching up all the cards (basic lands).
I haven't experienced any deck errors when adding basic lands. Are you actually "replacing" lands in step 3? i.e., moving any lands that are in your pool out of it?
I build my deck without adding lands at all, save, load in regular editor, add cool lands, resave, load in event editor and have had no problems.
If you plan on doing consecutive events, then a restart is required or you get that error. It doesn't handle back-to-back well at all.
Godot has explained how to do this in his previous articles. I've done it with full view Zendikar lands. The only problem I've had with it is that after I've done it, my deck editor occasionally gives me errors relating to my deck not matching the sealed deck. The only way I can get rid of these errors is to restart Magic Online.
1. Construct your deck as normal.
2. Save your deck using the save button in the draft deck editor screen.
3. Load your deck in the deck editor and simply replace the basic lands with whatever basic lands you want to use.
4. Save your deck with the new lands.
5. Load your deck in the deck construction screen.
6. Submit your deck.
I'm not currently a member of the puremtgo clan on online, but i would definitely be interested in being a part of the constructed clan.
Thanks, Pat
tiderunner on Magic Online
dude awesome article..
probably your best one so far, as you know i love the old lists, the history and the evolution of archtypes.
keep it up and no, you.
Also what about cutting white in the wish[gbr] list throwing in pulse on top of the deeds
going up to more basics and acidic slime looks baller in sur a deathtouch creeping mold.
If you still have room, I would like to join your constructed clan.
-Shuyin Knight of Zanarkand on Magic Online
A bit off topic but how do you play with those full art lands rather than the Zen default lands?
ur good indeed! i think time has set in with zzz and the days of w/b aggro are kinda of gone and now some people go for u/g right from the get go, still, i too look forward to world wake coming into play
Really cool idea and I really appreciate the work that you put into doing this. While its easy to debate the actual meaning of the data you collected, it's great just to have access to it.
I have to agree with a previous poster in that this type of data is probably more useful in identifying what the more skilled players are playing, rather than what cards specifically are leading to victories. There pretty much aren't any cards (maybe nighthawk?) whose presence alone can be expected to alter the outcome of a game. As a result, I would expect most cards that the vast majority of players will always play if they are on color, to have a rating that is not significantly different from 50%. Just as you said yourself, Journey should win more, if people actually played it right. I think the same may go for hookmaster here, although maybe it isn't as exciting in sealed as it is in draft. Along the same lines, I think the reason nimbus wings scored so low is that it is exactly the type of card that beginners value quite highly but more experienced players tend to prefer avoiding. It is very hard to agree that the act itself of playing such a card is what lead to a loss. Rather, the act of playing the card indicates that it is more likely that a weaker player is piloting this deck.
I think most players see the banning of (Life from the Loam) and (Crucible of Worlds) as a preemptive banning before (Wasteland) entered the environment. Neither cards was dominating the environment before they were banned.
(Life from the Loam) and (Intuition)/(Gifts Ungiven) create a back-breaking combo together and therefore I don't want to see both sides of that combo unbanned together.
I've put off buying Survival because I also have strong feeling it will be banned sooner rather than later. It's far too powerful with Squee, Dredge, reanimation spells (Discard any creature to get Akroma, discard Akroma to get Loyal Retainers), and a number of other cards.
Tarmotog said: "I do not know much about what is going on in their world but apparently, Imperial Seal is banned on the basis that it's too costly (which is a very relevant factor to formats that want more people playing them)."
You got it right: http://magicplayer.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=896&postdays=0&postorder=as...
(see the format's maintainer, Sturmgott's answer straight below that linked post).
Tarmotog said: "Buried Alive, from what I know, apart from assisting the above deck, usually sets up a Genesis recursion or a possible dredge chain. Again, the "no sideboard to cover graveyard" might be the reason for its banning unless there is a stronger reason behind it."
Yes, there's a stronger reasoning behind it's banning: magicplayer.org <-- ctrl-f: "Buried Alive // Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker" (Sorry, can't offer more exact linking as magicplayer's index page doesn't support permalinking of any sort). But in short: Buried alive was originally banned as *theoretically*, Buried Alive + (random) Reanimate spell (3 + 1 mana combo) was a GG of opponent was tapped out, (stack for Buried Alive would be: Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker; Pestermite and Karmic Guide). This was considered too strong a combo.
Tarmotog said: "The most interesting card in that bunch is probably Trinisphere. I've never actually seen a Trinisphere being played in 100 card Singleton which leaves me rather intrigued as to what made it ban-worthy."
The real reason for Trinisphere being banned is that Mishra's Workshop is legal, along with other tempo cards (Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors) played in stax. Turn one Workshop + Trinisphere was considered too unfun and luck pushing. The source is buried somewhere in the forum, (use search for "Trinisphere".) *Edit*, found it: http://magicplayer.org/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=784&postdays=0&postorder=as...
Tarmotog said: "Enlightened Tutor and Mystical Tutor are very interesting choices because..."
Again, see magicplayer.org index page and do ctrl-f for "Enlightened Tutor" for details.
I'm pretty sure guys from magicplayer.org have a lot more to offer, thus made a ping back of this article at: http://www.magicplayer.org/forum/index.php?topic=225.0
Especially in this "if you are going to support a format, support the format!" bit.
I'm sure someone with less written acumen and exposure was thinking a lot of the same things you are writing here about Vanguard.
I think my biggest concern with the banned lists in general is that it is never really explained. It would do worlds of good if the people of who decide the banned list actually gave some explanation as to the decisions that were made. I may be wrong because I haven't been following the banned lists for a very long time but they don't seem to have much in terms of warning or explanation. Simply saying "x is banned" or "no changes to the banned list" doesn't really fill me with a whole lot of confidence that this is being looked at very thoughtfully.
I would prefer something like "Cards x,y, and z are on our watch list, but results indicate that they haven't broken the format." or "Card X is preemptively banned because it is functionally similar to card Y which is already on the banned list" or something like that.
that you did not include cocoa pebbles! I actually made top 4 of a ext ptq back in the day with it losing to sean mckowen and panda burst up in neutral ground, ah memories.
Very nice job sir, if only survival didnt suck in the face of oath. oh well. only 12ish? more months till the legacy/vintage split.
I have wondered this, too. It seems like more expensive cards should win games more frequently than cheaper cards--not because they are necessarily better to have in your deck, but because the very fact you played them means that a lot of things had already worked out well for you earlier in the game. In the future, if there is such a bias, I plan on handicapping more expensive cards accordingly. However, I need to capture more data from more formats before I can do that.
In other news, very, very few games I watched were won or lost on account of mana screw. I was surprised to see that.