I don't see how you get to $32.61 for the grapeshot storm deck.
I haven't added every card up, but I don't see any super expensive card in the deck that would push that price that high, is the math right?
"The one thing that I think precludes p9 from being reprinted ever is that they essentially exist as proof of the folly of overpowering cards and the as the reason for the need for serious product testing"
Huh? And Mana Drain isn't? Yawgmoth's Will isn't? There are a couple reasons that you might not want power 9 online, but their power level isn't one of them. Classic is already the most powerful format online - making it more so (turning it into Vintage) isn't going to make a difference - except to WoTC accountants...
"I think I would like to see option where classic and legacy co-exist until the Power 9 arrives to convert classic into Vintage."
I agree with that, somewhat. Id' want to know P9 was coming if legacy was announced. If not though, I'm more willing to push out Legacy until the power are online. It's all about perception, and I've pointed this out on more than one occasion. As soon as you release "online Legacy" you immediately beg "where is online Vintage". People associate Vintage with one thing (and of this, there is no doubt) - the power 9. Regardless of how much different Classic is from Legacy - Bazaars, Drains, Will & Acacdemy etc... without Power 9 it will only ever be the red-headed step child of core formats. Classic as it would be, would take a massive momentum hit. Which is a big problem because if you suck the life out of it, only to try and revive it with P9 later, the damage may have already been done. Would it be impossible to recover from - maybe not. But if it's a matter of 5 months - I think anticipation for Legacy is less harmful than a possible classic hiatus.
That being said, I'm not insensitive to the idea that there is a definite divide with what people see as acceptable eternal play. Some people just don't like facing Dredge, or don't like Crucible/Strip, or won't like Oath, etc...but enjoy playing a lot of their older cards. But I don't see the format suffering for it at the moment. Where are the cries of "I'd love to play zoo but I can't because Dredge is so mighty? They are, so far, non-existant.
It's a difficult balance for MTGO. While Urza's Saga might be the straw that breaks the camel's back, it's release (which I'd expect in April 2010), isn't going to immediately turn people off. In fact, it might be nice to see if a number of people who clamour for Legacy aren't actually just as interested in more Vintage style play. Remember, the main impoteus for bringing Legacy online is to entice MORE people to play online. That means essentially taking from the pool of current paper Legacy players. But who's to say how many of those players are only playing Legacy (as opposed to Vintage) because it much cheaper and much easier to get sanctioned matches? How many of them would happily just play Vintage if they could, with those barriesr removed? I'm pretty sure it's not a significant number, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that it is.
interesting read...im actually in my junior year at college and think these tips may help me more in studying than magic but that might end up better for me
Yes, that is definitely worth mentioning. But as you said it's not cut a dry whether including them is really worth it when it increases your suceptibility to nonbasic land hate.
I personally think that UG has too much of a problem dealing with Miners and Magus of the Moon to really want to up your nonbasic land count that much. Also if you draw the Underground Sea and Taiga before popping the Mire, you've just created a dead card for yourself. Granted that is a rare possibility, but it's still an added risk.
If the deck had a more creature stealing focus, then adding red mana makes a bit more sense, because stealing a miner could be quite good. In other words a blue deck with; Old Man of the Sea, Threads of Disloyalty, Vedalken Shackles, Sower of Temptation, etc...
Also if you don't already have those duals, it can add a significant cost to the deck that is probably not worth it for 1 more fetchland.
One minor Land you missed for your UG land base you constructed: Blood Stained Mire
Even prior to ME3 this was a good source of UG mana by including an Underground Sea and a Taiga. It just depends if you want to run those 2 nonbasics over 2 basics for the chance at an extra UG source. So it wasn't necessarily always correct, but it was often overlooked by people even though I know a few who used that strategy.
I've been building a Golem/Thopter Tribal deck haven't tested it yet but it looks fun. The Thopter Foundry Sword of the Meek, and Krark-Clan Ironworks combo is lethal.
Classic is extremely expensive because it can use some of the most expensive cards in existence. 100 singleton uses all the cards that classic does and even has a larger deck size. You can't reasonably assume that the best decks are going to cheap.
The good news is that once you've constructed a 100 singleton deck, you can keep playing it without the need to change it too much once a new set comes out. It's a big up-front cost, but a small cost to continue playing.
Having said this, there are some ways to cut down on the cost of building a deck. In fact, you mentioned them in the last part of your reply. Mono-red, White-Weenie, and Mono-black are basically the cheapest competitive/ semi-competitive decks out there.
If you're going to go cheap, go mono-colored, or one color with a splash of a second color.
I don't use the term must-include lightly when it comes to Wasteland. Even against the decks you mentioned Wasteland has decent targets. White-Weenie has Karakas and Kjeldoran Outpost. Mono-black has Volrath's Stronghold and Cabal Coffers, and Mono-Red has Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, the Keldon lands, and possibly the Ravnica Bouncelands. Even in the worst case, Wasteland is still a colorless source of mana. I would even consider playing Ghost Quarter in some instances simply because of how strong some of the lands are in this format.
I've won or lost more games due to Wasteland than any other card. When I am playing I specifically try to play around it. Play out the basic lands first, then the Fetchlands then the other lands. If I have a comes into play tapped land, I can usually expect that it'll be wastelanded before I can use it. It is usually the first land I find with Weathered Wayfarer and it often functions like a colorless timewalk.
Even if Wasteland is only mediocre against 1 of the 8 top decks out there, I'd still make it the first nonbasic land that goes into my deck, and it would be the last nonbasic land that I would cut.
I will agree with paul on the ziggurat...its amazing if i want to cast a creature, but if i need a color for a spell its awful. The main reason i used it was for the Fire-Field since its fairly aggresive and has unearth but requires blue. I could try out grixis panorama in its place though. Demonfire is currently being imitated by fireball more for budget constraints. Poppet is an interesting card...if im against red i dont drop it till late..i just wish there were better aggresviely costed demons. The only thing ive considered replacing it with is takenuma bleeder since the damage from attacking should not be a concern.
Well, multiple purposes, but kickstarting the debate and building up the format was primary amongst them. I'm delighted that they seem to have worked.You're welcome, Paul.
No, I meant Sledder/Raider, but I see now how bad the play I suggested the Goblin player make can be in this situation. Whoops.
And yes, Crusader is the term I am using for both Raider and Sledder who provide an effect quite similar to Crusade for the Goblin deck.
-Alex
Alternately, the spikes have been and gone. We saw what happens to the Tribal metagame when prizes are on the line about four years ago, and it conforms to the tightening of viable decks. PRE testing doesn't result in the same level of ubiquity, but it does require using the same room, unless you agree beforehand with friends to get some serious time in one of the other rooms to run through a decent gauntlet.
Yeah by metagame I refer only to the tourney settings. Refering to the casual play area as a metagame is like calling a stew a soup. Interestingly close but no cigar. Tourney changes the metagame and as you said it probably is currently wide open (non tight) but I expect that will change as the format deepens in popularity. That is what I meant by fun but not necessarily holding up to the metagame. Not the one in casual but the one in tourney as winning decks start dominating the scene and people start planning the counter-offensives.
I don't doubt that your decks in general succeed quite well casually. You are a good deck builder but the spikes have yet to arrive.
I was actually not familiar with Jagged Poppet so I googled it. It seems to me that Hellbent as a keyword is a marginal crutch. Red (and black) does tend to have the problem of running out of cards but by the time that has happened Hellbent rarely helps (except maybe in the case of Demonfire which is notably absent and Gathen Raiders which doesn't fit the tribe.
Also Your non-creature suite seems quite extensive so 4x Ancient Ziggurat seems a serious error. The card is situationally bad if you get a grip with more non creature spells than creatures and there are many better lands to choose from in this format. I do appreciate the budgetness of the card however. Perhaps Rupture Spire if that is your intent or search such as Terramorphic Expanse.
They are called the Power Nine because they completely and utterly dominated the tourney scene before there was even a type 1 or 2 much less the fancier named "Vintage" and "Standard" and "Legacy". As such they are really broken beyond repair. Even with the amount of power in todays formats the power 9 are undercosted and overeffective. On top of that I remember the reserved list which WOTC formed as a promise to collectors not to reprint the power 9. Well they also promised they wouldn't reprint dual lands or legends or arabian nights. See where that went. But it seems to me that to break that promise would be wrong. (Though they did do the alt art giant cards so..?)
On the other hand Magic Online is a separate entity from paper. And if the p9 were in a future set release online it would not diminish the value of the paper game. It seems to me that given how popular releasing the rest of the duals and some of the funkier cards from Legends and Rot3K etc it would be a natural move to release the p9 online. If this happened and the rest of the unprinted cards that are vintage legal came online I don't think Classic would be diminished any more than Extended is diminished by Classic. Yes they are different but Extended has a fairly strong following and niche. Ive been busy lately playing psuedoclassic with Singleton 100 but Extended is still my mainstay.
The one thing that I think precludes p9 from being reprinted ever is that they essentially exist as proof of the folly of overpowering cards and the as the reason for the need for serious product testing. But when they were printed no one had an inkling that Magic would be so popular (thanks Silicon Vally! :D) Since they stand as this proof they are likely only to be reprinted as variations of the theme. Ancestral Vision instead of Ancestral Recall, Timewarp instead of Timewalk, etc.
That said without the power 9 there can be no Vintage imho. But Classic is an ever changing format anyway since every year it gets at least 4 new sets worth of cards. More on odd years. This means that the format is constantly needing to adapt and grow, as do its players. We can sit by and watch it happen but it will happen. Exodus is coming, next year Urza's Cycle is coming...Masques etc will eventually arrive, and by that time there will a ton of as yet unnamed sames with new cards and mechanics that will change the way Eternal formats are played online and off.
For this reason, I think the discussion is moot though interesting. Thanks for the article (finally?)
This would have been an enjoyable article if not for the constant complaining about your opp's superior card quality and your lack of expensive cards.
I don't see how you get to $32.61 for the grapeshot storm deck.
I haven't added every card up, but I don't see any super expensive card in the deck that would push that price that high, is the math right?
Good work man!!! Keep on with the good stuff.
i don't own a Magic Online account.
can i still participate?
"The one thing that I think precludes p9 from being reprinted ever is that they essentially exist as proof of the folly of overpowering cards and the as the reason for the need for serious product testing"
Huh? And Mana Drain isn't? Yawgmoth's Will isn't? There are a couple reasons that you might not want power 9 online, but their power level isn't one of them. Classic is already the most powerful format online - making it more so (turning it into Vintage) isn't going to make a difference - except to WoTC accountants...
"I think I would like to see option where classic and legacy co-exist until the Power 9 arrives to convert classic into Vintage."
I agree with that, somewhat. Id' want to know P9 was coming if legacy was announced. If not though, I'm more willing to push out Legacy until the power are online. It's all about perception, and I've pointed this out on more than one occasion. As soon as you release "online Legacy" you immediately beg "where is online Vintage". People associate Vintage with one thing (and of this, there is no doubt) - the power 9. Regardless of how much different Classic is from Legacy - Bazaars, Drains, Will & Acacdemy etc... without Power 9 it will only ever be the red-headed step child of core formats. Classic as it would be, would take a massive momentum hit. Which is a big problem because if you suck the life out of it, only to try and revive it with P9 later, the damage may have already been done. Would it be impossible to recover from - maybe not. But if it's a matter of 5 months - I think anticipation for Legacy is less harmful than a possible classic hiatus.
That being said, I'm not insensitive to the idea that there is a definite divide with what people see as acceptable eternal play. Some people just don't like facing Dredge, or don't like Crucible/Strip, or won't like Oath, etc...but enjoy playing a lot of their older cards. But I don't see the format suffering for it at the moment. Where are the cries of "I'd love to play zoo but I can't because Dredge is so mighty? They are, so far, non-existant.
It's a difficult balance for MTGO. While Urza's Saga might be the straw that breaks the camel's back, it's release (which I'd expect in April 2010), isn't going to immediately turn people off. In fact, it might be nice to see if a number of people who clamour for Legacy aren't actually just as interested in more Vintage style play. Remember, the main impoteus for bringing Legacy online is to entice MORE people to play online. That means essentially taking from the pool of current paper Legacy players. But who's to say how many of those players are only playing Legacy (as opposed to Vintage) because it much cheaper and much easier to get sanctioned matches? How many of them would happily just play Vintage if they could, with those barriesr removed? I'm pretty sure it's not a significant number, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that it is.
interesting read...im actually in my junior year at college and think these tips may help me more in studying than magic but that might end up better for me
Yes, that is definitely worth mentioning. But as you said it's not cut a dry whether including them is really worth it when it increases your suceptibility to nonbasic land hate.
I personally think that UG has too much of a problem dealing with Miners and Magus of the Moon to really want to up your nonbasic land count that much. Also if you draw the Underground Sea and Taiga before popping the Mire, you've just created a dead card for yourself. Granted that is a rare possibility, but it's still an added risk.
If the deck had a more creature stealing focus, then adding red mana makes a bit more sense, because stealing a miner could be quite good. In other words a blue deck with; Old Man of the Sea, Threads of Disloyalty, Vedalken Shackles, Sower of Temptation, etc...
Also if you don't already have those duals, it can add a significant cost to the deck that is probably not worth it for 1 more fetchland.
Pretty nice, some solid synergies. Not sure on the singleton Mirror Golem, although it can be a decent stalemate breaker. Considered Brass Herald?
One minor Land you missed for your UG land base you constructed: Blood Stained Mire
Even prior to ME3 this was a good source of UG mana by including an Underground Sea and a Taiga. It just depends if you want to run those 2 nonbasics over 2 basics for the chance at an extra UG source. So it wasn't necessarily always correct, but it was often overlooked by people even though I know a few who used that strategy.
Mercy Killing + Torrent of Souls has always been bonkers in my devour deck. Try a couple!
I've been building a Golem/Thopter Tribal deck haven't tested it yet but it looks fun. The Thopter Foundry Sword of the Meek, and Krark-Clan Ironworks combo is lethal.
4 Walking Archive
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Glassdust Hulk
4 Arcbound Reclaimer
4 Salvage Titan
1 Mirror Golem
1 Darksteel Colossus
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Sword of the Meek
4 Krark-Clan Ironworks
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
6 Island
6 Plains
3 Academy Ruins
lol i always fail at changelings when considering creatures but tauren mauler would be perfect i think
Aggressively costed demons, try Taurean Mauler, Skeletal or Ghostly changelings, or Changeling Berserker.
Kresh the Bloodbraided would go well there. I was tempted to stick him in my deck, but couldn't find room. Fun card though for casual.
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Classic is extremely expensive because it can use some of the most expensive cards in existence. 100 singleton uses all the cards that classic does and even has a larger deck size. You can't reasonably assume that the best decks are going to cheap.
The good news is that once you've constructed a 100 singleton deck, you can keep playing it without the need to change it too much once a new set comes out. It's a big up-front cost, but a small cost to continue playing.
Having said this, there are some ways to cut down on the cost of building a deck. In fact, you mentioned them in the last part of your reply. Mono-red, White-Weenie, and Mono-black are basically the cheapest competitive/ semi-competitive decks out there.
If you're going to go cheap, go mono-colored, or one color with a splash of a second color.
I don't use the term must-include lightly when it comes to Wasteland. Even against the decks you mentioned Wasteland has decent targets. White-Weenie has Karakas and Kjeldoran Outpost. Mono-black has Volrath's Stronghold and Cabal Coffers, and Mono-Red has Mishra's Factory, Mutavault, the Keldon lands, and possibly the Ravnica Bouncelands. Even in the worst case, Wasteland is still a colorless source of mana. I would even consider playing Ghost Quarter in some instances simply because of how strong some of the lands are in this format.
I've won or lost more games due to Wasteland than any other card. When I am playing I specifically try to play around it. Play out the basic lands first, then the Fetchlands then the other lands. If I have a comes into play tapped land, I can usually expect that it'll be wastelanded before I can use it. It is usually the first land I find with Weathered Wayfarer and it often functions like a colorless timewalk.
Even if Wasteland is only mediocre against 1 of the 8 top decks out there, I'd still make it the first nonbasic land that goes into my deck, and it would be the last nonbasic land that I would cut.
I will agree with paul on the ziggurat...its amazing if i want to cast a creature, but if i need a color for a spell its awful. The main reason i used it was for the Fire-Field since its fairly aggresive and has unearth but requires blue. I could try out grixis panorama in its place though. Demonfire is currently being imitated by fireball more for budget constraints. Poppet is an interesting card...if im against red i dont drop it till late..i just wish there were better aggresviely costed demons. The only thing ive considered replacing it with is takenuma bleeder since the damage from attacking should not be a concern.
Well, multiple purposes, but kickstarting the debate and building up the format was primary amongst them. I'm delighted that they seem to have worked.You're welcome, Paul.
No, I meant Sledder/Raider, but I see now how bad the play I suggested the Goblin player make can be in this situation. Whoops.
And yes, Crusader is the term I am using for both Raider and Sledder who provide an effect quite similar to Crusade for the Goblin deck.
-Alex
Poppet is always risky. Other than that, it's a decent array of ogres with a solid removal pool. I agree with Paul on the ziggurat.
Alternately, the spikes have been and gone. We saw what happens to the Tribal metagame when prizes are on the line about four years ago, and it conforms to the tightening of viable decks. PRE testing doesn't result in the same level of ubiquity, but it does require using the same room, unless you agree beforehand with friends to get some serious time in one of the other rooms to run through a decent gauntlet.
is a man land i use in my midrabge naya deck
Yeah by metagame I refer only to the tourney settings. Refering to the casual play area as a metagame is like calling a stew a soup. Interestingly close but no cigar. Tourney changes the metagame and as you said it probably is currently wide open (non tight) but I expect that will change as the format deepens in popularity. That is what I meant by fun but not necessarily holding up to the metagame. Not the one in casual but the one in tourney as winning decks start dominating the scene and people start planning the counter-offensives.
I don't doubt that your decks in general succeed quite well casually. You are a good deck builder but the spikes have yet to arrive.
I was actually not familiar with Jagged Poppet so I googled it. It seems to me that Hellbent as a keyword is a marginal crutch. Red (and black) does tend to have the problem of running out of cards but by the time that has happened Hellbent rarely helps (except maybe in the case of Demonfire which is notably absent and Gathen Raiders which doesn't fit the tribe.
Also Your non-creature suite seems quite extensive so 4x Ancient Ziggurat seems a serious error. The card is situationally bad if you get a grip with more non creature spells than creatures and there are many better lands to choose from in this format. I do appreciate the budgetness of the card however. Perhaps Rupture Spire if that is your intent or search such as Terramorphic Expanse.
I have several comments on this subject
They are called the Power Nine because they completely and utterly dominated the tourney scene before there was even a type 1 or 2 much less the fancier named "Vintage" and "Standard" and "Legacy". As such they are really broken beyond repair. Even with the amount of power in todays formats the power 9 are undercosted and overeffective. On top of that I remember the reserved list which WOTC formed as a promise to collectors not to reprint the power 9. Well they also promised they wouldn't reprint dual lands or legends or arabian nights. See where that went. But it seems to me that to break that promise would be wrong. (Though they did do the alt art giant cards so..?)
On the other hand Magic Online is a separate entity from paper. And if the p9 were in a future set release online it would not diminish the value of the paper game. It seems to me that given how popular releasing the rest of the duals and some of the funkier cards from Legends and Rot3K etc it would be a natural move to release the p9 online. If this happened and the rest of the unprinted cards that are vintage legal came online I don't think Classic would be diminished any more than Extended is diminished by Classic. Yes they are different but Extended has a fairly strong following and niche. Ive been busy lately playing psuedoclassic with Singleton 100 but Extended is still my mainstay.
The one thing that I think precludes p9 from being reprinted ever is that they essentially exist as proof of the folly of overpowering cards and the as the reason for the need for serious product testing. But when they were printed no one had an inkling that Magic would be so popular (thanks Silicon Vally! :D) Since they stand as this proof they are likely only to be reprinted as variations of the theme. Ancestral Vision instead of Ancestral Recall, Timewarp instead of Timewalk, etc.
That said without the power 9 there can be no Vintage imho. But Classic is an ever changing format anyway since every year it gets at least 4 new sets worth of cards. More on odd years. This means that the format is constantly needing to adapt and grow, as do its players. We can sit by and watch it happen but it will happen. Exodus is coming, next year Urza's Cycle is coming...Masques etc will eventually arrive, and by that time there will a ton of as yet unnamed sames with new cards and mechanics that will change the way Eternal formats are played online and off.
For this reason, I think the discussion is moot though interesting. Thanks for the article (finally?)