I never played Prismatic, but I did occasionally visit the threads where Prismatic players reacted in disbelief to the latest round of weird B/R changes. I hope they've learned something from that lack of coherence.
I'm hoping that they are dealing in a different way with Singleton 100 and with casual formats in general. The weekly tournaments seem to be a good thing, and my optimistic theory is that they plan to use the incoming data from them to improve the B/R lists soon.
I agree that Prismatic has probably left a void. It should be good for Wizards to have a bunch of different formats, particularly as they continue to grow MTGO and the player base gets big enough to support more niche formats, or make the existing niche formats stronger. Multiple formats make more of the card values go up, which is good for their business. The multiple formats also get more players in, because there are some players who just aren't into std/ext/classic.
One last thought - it's weird to me that they have grouped four formats together and called them "casual formats." (kaleidoscope, 100CS, pauper, standard vanguard). "Casual" is the wrong word for those formats. Also, they say that their business model is to use those formats to get people to jump into the other formats. I think that is also the wrong approach.
this is the first time i read one of your article and i find this really interesting. deck building is something i am having a hard time learning. so i'm really happy to come across this one. i like how you dissect the decks and go from there. consider me a fan.
Let's face it, I'm not building either deck. Fusion Elemental doesn't excite me as much as it does SteveH. But I gave this article five stars for the thought process - the story it told. I had a similar experience to SteveH recently. I had heard on a forum that Spawnwrithe + equipment = awesomeness and I wanted to try it out. But I'm kind of bad at deck building. And their lists were all standard legal, but I wanted to play it in classic. So I shuffled up some Lightning Bolts, Berserks, uh.... Warhammers, one Jitte, Taiga and Savannah, Kird Ape, and some other random crap. And I got slaughtered even in the casual room. Sometimes my opponents would just play one removal spell and then goldfish me. Horrible. So I can appreciate being in love with a certain card and having to debug a mess of a deck. In my case it was too much equipment, not enough hands. But when I "fixed it" I was left with a sub-optimal zoo deck. So the deck died.
^ not my submission for another CDD. I've got two other decks I'm trying to decide between. (I told you I'm no good.)
SteveH, if you're reading this, I have some card recommendations, even though I'm no good. First, I'll assume you're absolutely set on Fusion Elemental and the standard format. I'm sure Magic R&D would be happy to know that you actually paid 5 mana for FE. Actually, you paid more like 7, which is kind of a fair deal for an 8/8. You don't want a fair deal! You want to steal that 8/8. As long as you're using a support card to play FE you should try some better ones. Steve nailed it - Smokebraider is the best. But Smokebraider only works on elementals. If later on in your Magic future you fall in love with the next Progenitus be sure to try Elvish Piper, Dramatic Entrance, or Impromptu Raid. These cards also help you play around control decks if you're into advanced strategy.
Personally, I think your changes to the deck are quite bad: you're losing consistency and raw power in the first turns to play cards too dependant on momentary blink and slow cards like grim harvest, going back, again, to being more weak to graveyard hate. Also, getting 4 guardians T2 can kill too many decks, IMHO they should stay. Nice article however, I loved the old rock days of plagualords, never understood why that deck died in legacy.
First of all great article. I would like to hear abit more about non tier 1 decks as well but then probably it would be way too long.
Why didn't you run a counterbalance deck backed with kitchen finks as metahate deck? I think counterbalance is really stron right now, elves-zoo hardly have any cards that cost other than 1-2 and balance on 2-3 basically shots down loam decks as well. And finks would help you survive and hold the fort against zoo decks until you assemble the lock.
It is a shame there is no ichorid in recent top 8s. I see more and more people dropping leylines in their sbs and reducing number of gy hate they have. I think ichorid can be a great contender in this kind of environment.
On FoW subject. I do not own FoW and I don't think I can pay 70 tix a piece so because of that I can never play a real blue deck :(. However there are lots of great decks out there that does not require FoW and in the current meta report you just wrote about there are no FoWs are top 3. I think the main problem is that FoW is the poster child of Classic and people look at its price and think classic is not affordable. For people like me who loves to play classic there are always options so I don't think FoW is an actual barrier unless you obsesed with blue.
The reason i was so adamant about mutavault is that it is better then mishra's. yes i said it. It may not be able to pump itself or other vaults, but.... it piggybacks on lord of atlantis and does not die to pridemage, grip, or grudge. So all in all a superior choice when making a meta hate deck.
There you go, providing reasonings for your statements helps a lot. The only problem I have is that we have no idea what zen will bring, and also that soldiers/white weenie may be easy enough to disrupt.
And thanks for proving my point for me. Glen Elandra Archmage is a perfect example of a card that was widely considered to be 'not good enogh' but suddenly *was* good enough and the price jumped up.
Taking an extra turn is a pretty big effect, even in standard. Of course, this reprint also means that it will be extended legal for the next 7 years as well. Which is why I think it's a always a foolish statement to make a sweeping generalozation about a card like this; a card with a powerful, albeit expensive, effect.
I really enjoyed this article. My only issue is that this article started out as a casual deck clinic but came up with non-budget decks in the end. I would prefer to see budget decks in articles like this over decks with $100+ manabases. This complaint aside I still found your article very entertaining and easy to read. Thanks for sharing it.
Glowrider is a better alternative to Thorns of Amethyst, as it's a body that can attack.
I would be interested to see how Solitaire aka Enchantress will shape up to be once Saga populated the online servers. It has quite a few anti-aggro cards: Solitary Confinement, Elephant Grass, and Moat.
The deck seems like it would have a lot of mana issues. With only 4 swamps, a putrid leech can't be reliably played on turn 2, and even with mostly plains and forests a turn 2 qasali pridemage will probably be a stretch at times. Given how greedy some of the card choices are, like unmake, maybe running some borderposts would be a good idea. I could see a few of the green-white borderposts being very beneficial.
The cost of FOW is one of the biggest barriers to classic. I will never pay 70 for an online card, and I would not pay 50 either. That is just ridiculous. If FOW got down to 5-10, then I would consider it. The majority of people that play mtgo are younger, poor people. Only the obsessed and/or wealthy are willing to pay stupid amounts of money for digital cards. I would be willing to bet over 90% of people on mtgo will never buy a single card that costs 10tix or more. So while FOW may be the most expensive card for classic, it is just one of many overpriced cards that are stopping people from playing that format. I know about 20 people (irl) that play mtgo, and not one of them even considers spending money like that. So the format is ignored by all but a few.
It can be a fun format, but not when 4 cards equal a paycheck.
i saw an old list of chapins for extended haterade and it featured alot of artifacts ala staxx, such as trinisphere,thorn of amethyst. and also gaddock is a good choice tho not vs loam zoo elf,
would cursed totem be any good vs elves here? tho at the cost of pridemage.
why not treetop or mishra over mutas?
aluren may never work in classic just too many options out there i feel that just overpower or out race it.
so going to advocate humility in all standstill decks from now on
I'd give it six red mana symbols, but it only goes to five.
On FoW: Unfortunately, I'm not at a good financial moment in my life (college and such). But, if I did have a job, I would probably wait at $70. FoW is such an amazing card, but it's also a card you need a playset of, making it $280, which is a little much for my tastes. Some decks can be built for half that. However, I would be happy buying it at $60-$55. Of course, I'd much rather see a staple like FoW get closer to its price in the paper game.
On Aluren: Aluren was one of those decks I always wanted to try online. I'd love to see it become succesful.
That's definitely the cool think about suspend, you can customize to your taste. I liked fury charm and dust of moments better then time bug because fury gave me more options, and dust gets pretty crazy when all of your cards are suspended. Riftwing is always good, but I wanted reality strobe to go every round. But in 2hg really anything can happen so those are good stuff to put in the deck. They were my second place cards for this one :)
I can see you are going with a suspend theme here, but as long as you are working on multiple upkeeps, maybe you could worm a honden or three in there?
I can imagine some decks where it could work, but because of the color (and THREE white manas for kickers) the only I can really imagine being usefull is some kind of mana ramp G/W with Elspeth and Dauntless Escort.
Could be very nice, I think. The only problem is - other mana ramp decks KILL, this one will only destroy the other guy's game - and as interesting as it sounds, WINNING is always better...
If I had a nickle for every time I said that and the card ended up seeing play, I'd be freaking rich. Especially if I get it for the card I do say are good. Psh, Glen Elendra Archmage a jank rare? Get your heads out your buts peeps xD.
I think Time Warp does not have a place in modern standard though. Especially since this metagame is almost certainly going to be dominated by white for the next few months, or possibly a MBC deck, or hell, I wouldn't be surprised if U/B Traumatize/Echoes doesn't make a resurgence...
I never played Prismatic, but I did occasionally visit the threads where Prismatic players reacted in disbelief to the latest round of weird B/R changes. I hope they've learned something from that lack of coherence.
I'm hoping that they are dealing in a different way with Singleton 100 and with casual formats in general. The weekly tournaments seem to be a good thing, and my optimistic theory is that they plan to use the incoming data from them to improve the B/R lists soon.
I agree that Prismatic has probably left a void. It should be good for Wizards to have a bunch of different formats, particularly as they continue to grow MTGO and the player base gets big enough to support more niche formats, or make the existing niche formats stronger. Multiple formats make more of the card values go up, which is good for their business. The multiple formats also get more players in, because there are some players who just aren't into std/ext/classic.
One last thought - it's weird to me that they have grouped four formats together and called them "casual formats." (kaleidoscope, 100CS, pauper, standard vanguard). "Casual" is the wrong word for those formats. Also, they say that their business model is to use those formats to get people to jump into the other formats. I think that is also the wrong approach.
hey doc (short for casual doctor)
this is the first time i read one of your article and i find this really interesting. deck building is something i am having a hard time learning. so i'm really happy to come across this one. i like how you dissect the decks and go from there. consider me a fan.
Let's face it, I'm not building either deck. Fusion Elemental doesn't excite me as much as it does SteveH. But I gave this article five stars for the thought process - the story it told. I had a similar experience to SteveH recently. I had heard on a forum that Spawnwrithe + equipment = awesomeness and I wanted to try it out. But I'm kind of bad at deck building. And their lists were all standard legal, but I wanted to play it in classic. So I shuffled up some Lightning Bolts, Berserks, uh.... Warhammers, one Jitte, Taiga and Savannah, Kird Ape, and some other random crap. And I got slaughtered even in the casual room. Sometimes my opponents would just play one removal spell and then goldfish me. Horrible. So I can appreciate being in love with a certain card and having to debug a mess of a deck. In my case it was too much equipment, not enough hands. But when I "fixed it" I was left with a sub-optimal zoo deck. So the deck died.
^ not my submission for another CDD. I've got two other decks I'm trying to decide between. (I told you I'm no good.)
SteveH, if you're reading this, I have some card recommendations, even though I'm no good. First, I'll assume you're absolutely set on Fusion Elemental and the standard format. I'm sure Magic R&D would be happy to know that you actually paid 5 mana for FE. Actually, you paid more like 7, which is kind of a fair deal for an 8/8. You don't want a fair deal! You want to steal that 8/8. As long as you're using a support card to play FE you should try some better ones. Steve nailed it - Smokebraider is the best. But Smokebraider only works on elementals. If later on in your Magic future you fall in love with the next Progenitus be sure to try Elvish Piper, Dramatic Entrance, or Impromptu Raid. These cards also help you play around control decks if you're into advanced strategy.
Personally, I think your changes to the deck are quite bad: you're losing consistency and raw power in the first turns to play cards too dependant on momentary blink and slow cards like grim harvest, going back, again, to being more weak to graveyard hate. Also, getting 4 guardians T2 can kill too many decks, IMHO they should stay. Nice article however, I loved the old rock days of plagualords, never understood why that deck died in legacy.
Well written, nice length. Counterbalance is kind of slow VS zoo to answer Wicked's question.
First of all great article. I would like to hear abit more about non tier 1 decks as well but then probably it would be way too long.
Why didn't you run a counterbalance deck backed with kitchen finks as metahate deck? I think counterbalance is really stron right now, elves-zoo hardly have any cards that cost other than 1-2 and balance on 2-3 basically shots down loam decks as well. And finks would help you survive and hold the fort against zoo decks until you assemble the lock.
It is a shame there is no ichorid in recent top 8s. I see more and more people dropping leylines in their sbs and reducing number of gy hate they have. I think ichorid can be a great contender in this kind of environment.
On FoW subject. I do not own FoW and I don't think I can pay 70 tix a piece so because of that I can never play a real blue deck :(. However there are lots of great decks out there that does not require FoW and in the current meta report you just wrote about there are no FoWs are top 3. I think the main problem is that FoW is the poster child of Classic and people look at its price and think classic is not affordable. For people like me who loves to play classic there are always options so I don't think FoW is an actual barrier unless you obsesed with blue.
I would play classic if FoW was around 30, but at 50 or 70 it is just far too expensive for my tastes.
The reason i was so adamant about mutavault is that it is better then mishra's. yes i said it. It may not be able to pump itself or other vaults, but.... it piggybacks on lord of atlantis and does not die to pridemage, grip, or grudge. So all in all a superior choice when making a meta hate deck.
Thanks for the feedback man, I'll be sure to include more budget versions in the future.
There you go, providing reasonings for your statements helps a lot. The only problem I have is that we have no idea what zen will bring, and also that soldiers/white weenie may be easy enough to disrupt.
And thanks for proving my point for me. Glen Elandra Archmage is a perfect example of a card that was widely considered to be 'not good enogh' but suddenly *was* good enough and the price jumped up.
Taking an extra turn is a pretty big effect, even in standard. Of course, this reprint also means that it will be extended legal for the next 7 years as well. Which is why I think it's a always a foolish statement to make a sweeping generalozation about a card like this; a card with a powerful, albeit expensive, effect.
I really enjoyed this article. My only issue is that this article started out as a casual deck clinic but came up with non-budget decks in the end. I would prefer to see budget decks in articles like this over decks with $100+ manabases. This complaint aside I still found your article very entertaining and easy to read. Thanks for sharing it.
Glowrider is a better alternative to Thorns of Amethyst, as it's a body that can attack.
I would be interested to see how Solitaire aka Enchantress will shape up to be once Saga populated the online servers. It has quite a few anti-aggro cards: Solitary Confinement, Elephant Grass, and Moat.
I would not be playing the format at all. Force of Will, Dual Lands, LED, Vamp Tutor are all much too expensive for to buy on my own.
The deck seems like it would have a lot of mana issues. With only 4 swamps, a putrid leech can't be reliably played on turn 2, and even with mostly plains and forests a turn 2 qasali pridemage will probably be a stretch at times. Given how greedy some of the card choices are, like unmake, maybe running some borderposts would be a good idea. I could see a few of the green-white borderposts being very beneficial.
The cost of FOW is one of the biggest barriers to classic. I will never pay 70 for an online card, and I would not pay 50 either. That is just ridiculous. If FOW got down to 5-10, then I would consider it. The majority of people that play mtgo are younger, poor people. Only the obsessed and/or wealthy are willing to pay stupid amounts of money for digital cards. I would be willing to bet over 90% of people on mtgo will never buy a single card that costs 10tix or more. So while FOW may be the most expensive card for classic, it is just one of many overpriced cards that are stopping people from playing that format. I know about 20 people (irl) that play mtgo, and not one of them even considers spending money like that. So the format is ignored by all but a few.
It can be a fun format, but not when 4 cards equal a paycheck.
i saw an old list of chapins for extended haterade and it featured alot of artifacts ala staxx, such as trinisphere,thorn of amethyst. and also gaddock is a good choice tho not vs loam zoo elf,
would cursed totem be any good vs elves here? tho at the cost of pridemage.
why not treetop or mishra over mutas?
aluren may never work in classic just too many options out there i feel that just overpower or out race it.
so going to advocate humility in all standstill decks from now on
I'd give it six red mana symbols, but it only goes to five.
On FoW: Unfortunately, I'm not at a good financial moment in my life (college and such). But, if I did have a job, I would probably wait at $70. FoW is such an amazing card, but it's also a card you need a playset of, making it $280, which is a little much for my tastes. Some decks can be built for half that. However, I would be happy buying it at $60-$55. Of course, I'd much rather see a staple like FoW get closer to its price in the paper game.
On Aluren: Aluren was one of those decks I always wanted to try online. I'd love to see it become succesful.
I hope people really appreciate all the hard work you put into those lists. I might have to try the Haterade some more.
I definitely wanted too! But I like theme, maybe I'll do a shrine deck down the road.
That's definitely the cool think about suspend, you can customize to your taste. I liked fury charm and dust of moments better then time bug because fury gave me more options, and dust gets pretty crazy when all of your cards are suspended. Riftwing is always good, but I wanted reality strobe to go every round. But in 2hg really anything can happen so those are good stuff to put in the deck. They were my second place cards for this one :)
I can see you are going with a suspend theme here, but as long as you are working on multiple upkeeps, maybe you could worm a honden or three in there?
pretty nice block article BoB ! waiting for the next one
I can imagine some decks where it could work, but because of the color (and THREE white manas for kickers) the only I can really imagine being usefull is some kind of mana ramp G/W with Elspeth and Dauntless Escort.
Could be very nice, I think. The only problem is - other mana ramp decks KILL, this one will only destroy the other guy's game - and as interesting as it sounds, WINNING is always better...
Man, good catch, I accidentally left out Realm Razer from that list. If Josh thinks it's worth his time, maybe he can fix it for me.
If I had a nickle for every time I said that and the card ended up seeing play, I'd be freaking rich. Especially if I get it for the card I do say are good. Psh, Glen Elendra Archmage a jank rare? Get your heads out your buts peeps xD.
I think Time Warp does not have a place in modern standard though. Especially since this metagame is almost certainly going to be dominated by white for the next few months, or possibly a MBC deck, or hell, I wouldn't be surprised if U/B Traumatize/Echoes doesn't make a resurgence...