Well, when the format becomes dominated by ridiculously fast aggro (which it will initially, let's be honest), then this will be too slow. As a result, some kind of mid-range deck will emerge to beat up on the fast aggro. I'd guess this'll be pretty good against random mid-range, so maybe it'll show up later in the format. My point is, I doubt it'll be totally irrelevant, but I still don't think it's particularly good. Standard will be left with a 6-mana wrath of permanents, and a 7-mana wrath which gets you some tokens.
This had better be a precursor to a good wrath in zendikar, but I have a feeling it's just part of maro's plan to turn magic into a strictly creature combat game because "it's more fun". I mean, they've already succesfully got rid of combo from standard.
I understand opening up design space to make better "block WoGs". But I'm still worried, because bolt is back (this one works for "both sides" though), ball lightning is back, and there are several good efficient cheap creatures in the format. And not only is Mana leak or other permission of that level out but also WoG? What keeps aggro under control? Granted we have the new StP, but that isn't so hot against 1 or 2-mana beaters.
Back to better "block WoGs", honestly, what can they do? At 4-mana, I don't think they can make it better than WoG (even with the creatures being much better than they used to be). So are we going to see "strictly worse" WoGs at 4-mana (like removing the no regen clause), and then that one shows up in M2011? Who knows. Are we going to see Final Judgment at 5-mana as it should have been costed anyway? Hallowed Burial at 4? Some weaker version of WoG at 3 may be interesting (something that removes 4 cc and under, perhaps).
@LE:
Well, I don't know any of those TCG's and frankly: I don't care! I think it's utterly disappointing that a game such as MtG awards price to some folks just for living on the right side of the ocean.
I pay a lot of money playing MtG and not some other TCG that doesn't allow "foreigners" into tournaments. I know tons of online (for instance: poker) games that award prices to whoever plays a tournament regardless of where one lives... so that's just a lame excuse.
I hate it, I hate MtGO for it and this stuff is non-stop...
Let's just hope they print something decent in zendikar, and they give us back wrath or damnation in 12th ed. This card is plain horrible with the ridicolous fast aggros around these days.
i have to agree with you there. Our passion to mtg must be very strong to accept the conditions : unfriendly schedules, rewards unreachable ...
... but the fact is that i love this game too much to give up because of that. That being said, i am pretty sure it could be possible to WotC to find issues allowing to european players to take advantage of some dedicated reward program
I know a lot of online Trading Card Games where those "foreigners" such as myself are not even allowed into simple tournaments because of international gambling laws. So we are lucky that we don't have such problems here on MTGO. It's sad that I won't be able to get those nice lands but I will never complain about this just because I know those other games and just because I know how lucky I am actually.
OK, as a 'foreigner' I shouldn't complain because I have lost nothing but it's just a little annoying to see what others can 'earn' yet I will have to buy if I want them.....
Flash is very funny to play to me even with the restriction. Although i think sliver kill a bit more efficient, i tried this "old school" version some weeks ago(for details, i ran it with Cavern in order to be able to lauch the combo on turn 0, but without good results).
My final though was that to run Dreadnought was pretty interesting : i kept the wall but i also tried to run 4xdreadnought + 4xstifle in order to 1) be able to keep the flash kill as well, 2) to give another possible kill condition with the noughts (using flash by sacrificing 1 nought to keep the other on play or simply by stifling it), 3) to be able to counter a crypt/relic activation in case of.
I cant say i had that good result (and i never ran it in PE) but i felt something more versatile with this version... Did the Flash specialist try something that looks like to that ? And if not, why ?
Once I saw somewhere that WotC wanted to make regeneration matter. Now it does. Deity of Scars andMossbridge Troll are a few such creatures with regenerate that come to my mind. I'm already thinking of a deck that uses Planar Cleansing:
Big Mana
22x Lands
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Trace of Abundance
4x Rampant Growth
Removal
4x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Path to Exile or Unmake
3x Planar Cleansing
Finishers
4x Deity of Scars
3x Sapling of Colfenor - because of indestructibility
4x Cudgel Troll - a new troll with regen.
I think I like whip a bit too much. picking it 4th would be too high most of the time... but depending on the deck and the power of the pack I could see taking it that early. However 6th-ish does sound more about right.
I have not had much opportunity to play with the Thoctar - I really can see myself liking it a lot though.
Finally - Bit Blast. No doubt, its the best spot removal in the block and I will almost always take it 1st all the time. However, I don't think its a tier I under my methodology - I have only given two of those so far - Martial Coup and Nichol Bolas, Planeswalker. The only card I see as tier I from reborn is Lavalanch. While Bit blast is crazy good - I don't think it stands up next to these other three cards in terms of sheer game sweeping power.
to be more specific about why it's up there hammy. The standard deck elfball (the one I played you with the other night) uses Regal force since it provides a nice body and massive card advantage around turn 4. Last week's Top Decks on the WotC site shined some light on the finicky deck.
I have some, too. I have no idea. I figure I'll save them for after this weekend. The Mirage Block sealed Champs is this weekend, so Wizards may fire up some drafts afterward. If not, maybe next NIX TIX celebration?
Or I might just bust them, on the offhand chance of opening a Lion's Eye Diamond, Vampiric Tutor and Null Rod. :)
While I understand why you might say it, I don`t really think Thrinax interacts better with Infest than Fatestitcher. The saprolings will also roll over and die to the sweeper. Taking Fatestitcher is better in the way of not commiting, and it`s not only my love for Grixis talking here. You also say that you too think Stitcher is the most powerfull card, IMO this was the turning-point-pick in the draft and you took the wrong one. The 2 cards are very close in power-level, and Stitcher is simply less devoting when it comes to colours. Gratz on the win though, trainwrecks win too :)
Bituminous Blast should be a I IMO, it completely turns around games.
Disagree completely on Deathbringer Thoctar. "He brings a lot of power and flexibility to the table and is easily a bomb."
No, he's a 3/3 for SIX that brings *nothing* else to the table without some very specific things happening first. Even if you get those things to happen and he gets some counters, he is only truly sick against a bunch of 1-toughness creatures across the way. If you manage to get some counters on him against an opponent without 1-toughness creatures, he can make things tricky, but he's rarely going to be nuts given what you paid for him.
A bomb has an immediate, swingy impact on the game, not a circumstantial, sometimes-great impact on the game. A bomb brings you back even when you are behind, puts you ahead when you are even, and puts the game away when you are ahead (like Bituminous Blast). Deathbringer Thoctar is not a bomb. III - IV range on your scale at best. Expensive and only conditionally good with the right board or support cards.
Demonic Dread: I *loved* this card in triple Reborn. T1 borderpost, T2 Leech, T3 dread into hackblade, swing past their blocker for 7. It's certainly not as good in full Alara block, although is highly deck dependent. If you have an insanely aggro deck with killer two-drops, it's actually quite good. That's the tough part about putting cascade spells with a marginal base ability on a scale at all: their quality is determined mostly by what they can flip.
Demonspine Whip is IV or lower IMO, and you should be taking them when they are the only thing in the pack pick 7-9 range. It would have to be a pretty terrible pack to take one 4th.
I generally agree with most of your analysisses, but I think it fails to give a good enough impression of all the cards when youre not considering different archetypes. Specifically; Demonic Dread and Kathari Bomber. Although I dislike the randomness Cascade means, it is still a role-filler for agressive BR/BRx-decks. It will probably hit a 2-drop, and if it`s your lucky day a removal-spell. The extra damage you get trough and the potential removal-spell is worth the extra mana and randomness involved. While I don`t like relying on luck so much, I can`t argue that Demonic Dread isn`t a decent card in the right archetype.
As for Bomber, this card is prety good. If it lacked the unearth it would be sub-par, you don`t pay 3 for Dragon Fodder. However, the unearth really makes it a source of mana-maxemising, which is a good thing in Magic. You want to spend as much of your mana as possible. Also note that the exspensive, but rewarding, unearth cost makes it just the kind of creature an aggresive Grixis-deck would want, do some early damage, then race with unearth. 2 chump-blockers can really turn a L into a W. The tokens also go great with a Jund-deck that, you know, likes tokens.
Lastly, calling Demonspine Whip 4th-7th is as far as I can tell veeeeery wrong. First of all, Reborn is loaded with good cards, so you should still be seeing Blades and Sangrite Backlashes. Secondly, Whip is pretty much Firebreathing to the creature of your choise, which isn`t that relevant in the first 5 turns, and as long as you both have pretty much equally sized creatures, equally sized creatures will still trade unless you have something whacky like First strike. The difference will be that you have 1 less creature, as you have a Whip instead. Note that Whip would be strong in something like Jund tokens, where you will pretty much always have the smallest body and the most creatures.
Overall, I agree pretty much with everything :) And I enjoy the series,so keep it up
100s is one of my favorite formats. I took a nearly exact replica of tus's list for last weekends event and ran it into the ground. I may be trying a control build next week, to get delicous foily cloaks.
Like the article, but just wondering why not Memory Laps over the Mana Leak? It's seems the time ebb would work more to your advantage imo giving you the tempo advantage.
I feel that your article gives a good explanation to better understand the initial differences of the format. One could go on and on about many sub-sections and I enjoyed that you kept the overall ideas well balanced as well as gave brief examples.
I always learn a lot from your PE articles as a player of the format, but so far I think this is my favorite article aimed at everyone.
Great article, VERY useful for wannabe-competitive pauper deck designers like myself. I think you're provided us with solid general principles to take into account when designing a deck, and that these principles are useful in constraining ideas for competitive decks.
In abstract, I think your deck looks good. The first turns are packed with action, you have a clear plan and ways to protect it.
In terms of card choices, I wouldn't change the number of Steels. Ninja has partial anti-sinergy with them (although playing them ON the ninja wouldn't be a bad plan obv.) and you have 10 targets in the deck that maximize the auras by being UW. Talon Trooper doesn't look very impressive TBH, but a quick gatherer search doesn't reveal anything massively useful to run over it in pauper whilst keeping it godhead-targetable. Maybe stormblade?
Prohibit over mana leak maybe?
Anyway, the deck looks good and I'd love to test it. These are just a few quick thoughts off the top of my head.
Some more of "here's the big archetypes in pauper, and here's how to beat them" type articles.
I think that would be a good starting point in the creation of a concensus deck that, while
it may not be a "best deck in the format", would at least have reasonable game against the
major players...
(I have yet to be able to come up with a deck that can handle aggro while still having a ghost
of a chance against mbc and/or storm combo. But then my deck-building skills definately fall
into the casual-room level).
Well, when the format becomes dominated by ridiculously fast aggro (which it will initially, let's be honest), then this will be too slow. As a result, some kind of mid-range deck will emerge to beat up on the fast aggro. I'd guess this'll be pretty good against random mid-range, so maybe it'll show up later in the format. My point is, I doubt it'll be totally irrelevant, but I still don't think it's particularly good. Standard will be left with a 6-mana wrath of permanents, and a 7-mana wrath which gets you some tokens.
This had better be a precursor to a good wrath in zendikar, but I have a feeling it's just part of maro's plan to turn magic into a strictly creature combat game because "it's more fun". I mean, they've already succesfully got rid of combo from standard.
As far as I see it, America is NOT on the RIGHT side of the ocean... It is on the (dramatic pause) left side! (conventions, conventions).
Just trying to introduce some light-hearted commentary.
Ivo.
I understand opening up design space to make better "block WoGs". But I'm still worried, because bolt is back (this one works for "both sides" though), ball lightning is back, and there are several good efficient cheap creatures in the format. And not only is Mana leak or other permission of that level out but also WoG? What keeps aggro under control? Granted we have the new StP, but that isn't so hot against 1 or 2-mana beaters.
Back to better "block WoGs", honestly, what can they do? At 4-mana, I don't think they can make it better than WoG (even with the creatures being much better than they used to be). So are we going to see "strictly worse" WoGs at 4-mana (like removing the no regen clause), and then that one shows up in M2011? Who knows. Are we going to see Final Judgment at 5-mana as it should have been costed anyway? Hallowed Burial at 4? Some weaker version of WoG at 3 may be interesting (something that removes 4 cc and under, perhaps).
Ivo.
@LE:
Well, I don't know any of those TCG's and frankly: I don't care! I think it's utterly disappointing that a game such as MtG awards price to some folks just for living on the right side of the ocean.
I pay a lot of money playing MtG and not some other TCG that doesn't allow "foreigners" into tournaments. I know tons of online (for instance: poker) games that award prices to whoever plays a tournament regardless of where one lives... so that's just a lame excuse.
I hate it, I hate MtGO for it and this stuff is non-stop...
Let's just hope they print something decent in zendikar, and they give us back wrath or damnation in 12th ed. This card is plain horrible with the ridicolous fast aggros around these days.
i have to agree with you there. Our passion to mtg must be very strong to accept the conditions : unfriendly schedules, rewards unreachable ...
... but the fact is that i love this game too much to give up because of that. That being said, i am pretty sure it could be possible to WotC to find issues allowing to european players to take advantage of some dedicated reward program
I know a lot of online Trading Card Games where those "foreigners" such as myself are not even allowed into simple tournaments because of international gambling laws. So we are lucky that we don't have such problems here on MTGO. It's sad that I won't be able to get those nice lands but I will never complain about this just because I know those other games and just because I know how lucky I am actually.
LE
OK, as a 'foreigner' I shouldn't complain because I have lost nothing but it's just a little annoying to see what others can 'earn' yet I will have to buy if I want them.....
Nice article from our mtgo specialist of Flash :)
Flash is very funny to play to me even with the restriction. Although i think sliver kill a bit more efficient, i tried this "old school" version some weeks ago(for details, i ran it with Cavern in order to be able to lauch the combo on turn 0, but without good results).
My final though was that to run Dreadnought was pretty interesting : i kept the wall but i also tried to run 4xdreadnought + 4xstifle in order to 1) be able to keep the flash kill as well, 2) to give another possible kill condition with the noughts (using flash by sacrificing 1 nought to keep the other on play or simply by stifling it), 3) to be able to counter a crypt/relic activation in case of.
I cant say i had that good result (and i never ran it in PE) but i felt something more versatile with this version... Did the Flash specialist try something that looks like to that ? And if not, why ?
Swinging, blocking and making sure that your creatures are the only non-lands on the board once you hit 6 mana since 2009...
You say Euro lands in the article, but the pictures are of APAC lands.
Once I saw somewhere that WotC wanted to make regeneration matter. Now it does. Deity of Scars andMossbridge Troll are a few such creatures with regenerate that come to my mind. I'm already thinking of a deck that uses Planar Cleansing:
Big Mana
22x Lands
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Trace of Abundance
4x Rampant Growth
Removal
4x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Path to Exile or Unmake
3x Planar Cleansing
Finishers
4x Deity of Scars
3x Sapling of Colfenor - because of indestructibility
4x Cudgel Troll - a new troll with regen.
This would be a nice deck actually.
LE
As always, thanks for the comments.
I think I like whip a bit too much. picking it 4th would be too high most of the time... but depending on the deck and the power of the pack I could see taking it that early. However 6th-ish does sound more about right.
I have not had much opportunity to play with the Thoctar - I really can see myself liking it a lot though.
Finally - Bit Blast. No doubt, its the best spot removal in the block and I will almost always take it 1st all the time. However, I don't think its a tier I under my methodology - I have only given two of those so far - Martial Coup and Nichol Bolas, Planeswalker. The only card I see as tier I from reborn is Lavalanch. While Bit blast is crazy good - I don't think it stands up next to these other three cards in terms of sheer game sweeping power.
I agree; Bit Blast is easily Tier I.
That said, I love single-mind ogre, too. Not so high on whip and breath of malfegor.
to be more specific about why it's up there hammy. The standard deck elfball (the one I played you with the other night) uses Regal force since it provides a nice body and massive card advantage around turn 4. Last week's Top Decks on the WotC site shined some light on the finicky deck.
I have some, too. I have no idea. I figure I'll save them for after this weekend. The Mirage Block sealed Champs is this weekend, so Wizards may fire up some drafts afterward. If not, maybe next NIX TIX celebration?
Or I might just bust them, on the offhand chance of opening a Lion's Eye Diamond, Vampiric Tutor and Null Rod. :)
While I understand why you might say it, I don`t really think Thrinax interacts better with Infest than Fatestitcher. The saprolings will also roll over and die to the sweeper. Taking Fatestitcher is better in the way of not commiting, and it`s not only my love for Grixis talking here. You also say that you too think Stitcher is the most powerfull card, IMO this was the turning-point-pick in the draft and you took the wrong one. The 2 cards are very close in power-level, and Stitcher is simply less devoting when it comes to colours. Gratz on the win though, trainwrecks win too :)
I'm waiting for the next article, although, I am sure that this topic will be a bit dry for most LOL.
Bituminous Blast should be a I IMO, it completely turns around games.
Disagree completely on Deathbringer Thoctar. "He brings a lot of power and flexibility to the table and is easily a bomb."
No, he's a 3/3 for SIX that brings *nothing* else to the table without some very specific things happening first. Even if you get those things to happen and he gets some counters, he is only truly sick against a bunch of 1-toughness creatures across the way. If you manage to get some counters on him against an opponent without 1-toughness creatures, he can make things tricky, but he's rarely going to be nuts given what you paid for him.
A bomb has an immediate, swingy impact on the game, not a circumstantial, sometimes-great impact on the game. A bomb brings you back even when you are behind, puts you ahead when you are even, and puts the game away when you are ahead (like Bituminous Blast). Deathbringer Thoctar is not a bomb. III - IV range on your scale at best. Expensive and only conditionally good with the right board or support cards.
Demonic Dread: I *loved* this card in triple Reborn. T1 borderpost, T2 Leech, T3 dread into hackblade, swing past their blocker for 7. It's certainly not as good in full Alara block, although is highly deck dependent. If you have an insanely aggro deck with killer two-drops, it's actually quite good. That's the tough part about putting cascade spells with a marginal base ability on a scale at all: their quality is determined mostly by what they can flip.
Demonspine Whip is IV or lower IMO, and you should be taking them when they are the only thing in the pack pick 7-9 range. It would have to be a pretty terrible pack to take one 4th.
I generally agree with most of your analysisses, but I think it fails to give a good enough impression of all the cards when youre not considering different archetypes. Specifically; Demonic Dread and Kathari Bomber. Although I dislike the randomness Cascade means, it is still a role-filler for agressive BR/BRx-decks. It will probably hit a 2-drop, and if it`s your lucky day a removal-spell. The extra damage you get trough and the potential removal-spell is worth the extra mana and randomness involved. While I don`t like relying on luck so much, I can`t argue that Demonic Dread isn`t a decent card in the right archetype.
As for Bomber, this card is prety good. If it lacked the unearth it would be sub-par, you don`t pay 3 for Dragon Fodder. However, the unearth really makes it a source of mana-maxemising, which is a good thing in Magic. You want to spend as much of your mana as possible. Also note that the exspensive, but rewarding, unearth cost makes it just the kind of creature an aggresive Grixis-deck would want, do some early damage, then race with unearth. 2 chump-blockers can really turn a L into a W. The tokens also go great with a Jund-deck that, you know, likes tokens.
Lastly, calling Demonspine Whip 4th-7th is as far as I can tell veeeeery wrong. First of all, Reborn is loaded with good cards, so you should still be seeing Blades and Sangrite Backlashes. Secondly, Whip is pretty much Firebreathing to the creature of your choise, which isn`t that relevant in the first 5 turns, and as long as you both have pretty much equally sized creatures, equally sized creatures will still trade unless you have something whacky like First strike. The difference will be that you have 1 less creature, as you have a Whip instead. Note that Whip would be strong in something like Jund tokens, where you will pretty much always have the smallest body and the most creatures.
Overall, I agree pretty much with everything :) And I enjoy the series,so keep it up
100s is one of my favorite formats. I took a nearly exact replica of tus's list for last weekends event and ran it into the ground. I may be trying a control build next week, to get delicous foily cloaks.
Like the article, but just wondering why not Memory Laps over the Mana Leak? It's seems the time ebb would work more to your advantage imo giving you the tempo advantage.
I feel that your article gives a good explanation to better understand the initial differences of the format. One could go on and on about many sub-sections and I enjoyed that you kept the overall ideas well balanced as well as gave brief examples.
I always learn a lot from your PE articles as a player of the format, but so far I think this is my favorite article aimed at everyone.
Great article, VERY useful for wannabe-competitive pauper deck designers like myself. I think you're provided us with solid general principles to take into account when designing a deck, and that these principles are useful in constraining ideas for competitive decks.
In abstract, I think your deck looks good. The first turns are packed with action, you have a clear plan and ways to protect it.
In terms of card choices, I wouldn't change the number of Steels. Ninja has partial anti-sinergy with them (although playing them ON the ninja wouldn't be a bad plan obv.) and you have 10 targets in the deck that maximize the auras by being UW. Talon Trooper doesn't look very impressive TBH, but a quick gatherer search doesn't reveal anything massively useful to run over it in pauper whilst keeping it godhead-targetable. Maybe stormblade?
Prohibit over mana leak maybe?
Anyway, the deck looks good and I'd love to test it. These are just a few quick thoughts off the top of my head.
Love the columns, keep em coming.
You know what I'd like to see?
Some more of "here's the big archetypes in pauper, and here's how to beat them" type articles.
I think that would be a good starting point in the creation of a concensus deck that, while
it may not be a "best deck in the format", would at least have reasonable game against the
major players...
(I have yet to be able to come up with a deck that can handle aggro while still having a ghost
of a chance against mbc and/or storm combo. But then my deck-building skills definately fall
into the casual-room level).