You are correct, I have not tried MF. So far no one has really convinced me that I'm making a mistake either. Sure, it might be a win condition for a game that goes into the extreme late-game (15-20+ turns). However, if the game has gone that long, either both decks are just terrible, or both decks and players are very evenly matched and the game has stalled with both players in topdeck mode. In the latter situation, any halfway decent creature has a better chance of winning the game than MF does - not only that, but the creature likely will still be good if it had been drawn earlier in the game - MF won't be.
Playing MF because it can randomly win some late games is the same as playing 42 cards with the game plan of decking your opponent. Both basically want to do the same thing, and if the games gone long enough for MF to end it, then it likely could be stalled out another 10 turns to deck the ol'fashioned way. Actually, on second thought, its worse, because playing 42 cards doesn't necessarily mean you're wasting a draw on a bad one...
I know that I'm being obstinate about this - and while I doubt I could be swayed, I would be really interested for one of the pro-MF's to post a screenshot of a game that they have won with MF.
"This was almost my first case where M10 combat rules would have altered the result of a play, but not quite. He swings me down to 15 and passes, and I pull another body to wield the sledge in Matca Rioters. In his first main he cycles an Esper Sojourners tapping my Matca Rioters, which seems like odd timing for the effect until he completes the play with Controlled Instincts."
"So far, the only bad side to MF I can think of is being countered, or having it stuck in your opener. Remember now, those of us in favor of it have used it. It seems as if all the opponents of it are critics who haven't even tried it. Is that true?"
Magic is an investment game. We generate resources and invest them in effects that advance our agenda of winning the game. You see it as a neutral result to invest three mana and a card in the effect "shuffle target library." and that's a failure to see the value of your resources. Good players see that as such an obviously bad and highly likely result, they don't need to try it to understand that a singleton MF is a poor investment of resources.
yes i was wondering if someone would catch the mispelling of ado lol I caught it as it went up as I was unable to run through spellcheck as all the names cause word to go crazy so I just looked it over ran a search for some common word mistakes/miscapitlizations and sent it. Aparently I missed a few. But yeah as It has now been posted on wizards.com decks of the week Bant By lord of atlantis. and apparently claytor fixed adeau lol.
3 Coiling Oracle
2 Jhessian Infiltrator
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Oversoul of Dusk
4 Rafiq of the Many
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Shorecrasher Mimic
4 Wilt-Leaf Liege
3 Bant Charm
2 Behemoth Sledge
2 Finest Hour
4 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
2 Plains
2 Temple Garden
4 Treetop Village
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Bastion
sideboard
1 Bant Charm
4 Captured Sunlight
2 Glare of Subdual
3 Guttural Response
2 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
How the heck does someone come up with that mana base for that block 5cc deck? I'm just floored looking at it...I honestly want to know how some arrives at determining how to put that mix of all those different lands together.
You actually do get credit for the win, you just don't get the unlocked card, which for someone like me who could care less about rankings, is just as bad. I had to sit around all day and replay AI matches to get the cards unlocked. Sort of mind numbing.
I'd really have to agree with you on most of your points. Especially the deckbuilding stuff. I find it so painful I don't think I'll be playing for awhile that I draw a card like Wall of Roots or the gain 8 life spell in a 70+ card deck. The graphics and the whole tap X to respond is really cool. Couldn't agree more on a F6 lol!
Men can be removed, tapped, countered, all sorts of vulnerabilities. That was more the point I was trying to make. So far, the only bad side to MF I can think of is being countered, or having it stuck in your opener. Remember now, those of us in favor of it have used it. It seems as if all the opponents of it are critics who haven't even tried it. Is that true?
The Hydra is a man. Mind Funeral is a semi useless effect. He isn't say it is just useless during your opening draw but any time other than very late in the game. Akin more to the 10 CMC creatures that Timmy loves so much.
cursing out good players is stuff of legends on MODO. Your experience is no exception. Not quite as funny as being accused of cheating playing chess online but still pretty funny. I had a guy I was playing SWISS draft with tell me he was going to kill himself after our match ended. Next Draft he was merrily drafting away as if nothing happened. Then my finals opponent asked if I knew the player and I said yes Id played him in a previous draft. More anecdotes proceeded. :p
I will only say that I had a game where the player had a mind funeral after a long exhausting game and he won...only to lose the next two. So it is definitely not a bomb even if it can be a weird finisher. I can see why people like it though...it moves a random number of nonlands to your opponent's graveyard + 4 lands. That seems like advantage even if it isn't. It is really just a narrowing of the deck which makes it deadlier if you don't happen to mill off all the bombs/answers.
I'm not fully grasping your point on this. In your latest draft article you picked up an Apocalypse Hydra which won you the game. Isn't that card comparable to some degree as it is pretty much useless in your opening hand? I really fail to see that argument. It's like saying that you shouldn't snag a burn spell unless you plan on burning your opponent to death. All the proponents of the card have simply said that it has worked as an efficient Win Con if the game goes late. How is it then different from your Hydra?
I would think a big factor in the higher win percentage in Swiss is, well, the fact that it's Swiss. When you lose in round one, you go on to play another player who lost. Your run in the loser's bracket is going to be inherently easier. There is no loser's bracket in 43--after round one, you either play against another undefeated player, or you are done.
To make the point again: unless it wins you a game via decking *that you would not have won otherwise*, a lone Mind Funeral is wasted mana on a wasted card. For every instance of "it totally won me the game on turn 15" (a significant percentage of which that player would have won anyway) there are 20+ games where it would have been a dead draw. That's just my estimate, but I think it's fair to suggest that fewer than one in 20 limited Magic games go to turn 15, or see a library under 10 cards, even with a "controlling deck."
All the pro-funeral people here are making the common card-assessment mistake of only viewing a card in its best possible light, like a poker player insisting 93 suited is a playable hand because of that big pot it won them that one time.
You want to judge cards by their worst-case scenarios and typical scenarios, and Mind Funeral’s worst-case scenario *is* it's most typical scenario: dead card, wasted mana. “But it’s awesome on turn 15!” is *not* what you want to be saying about your spells.
A challenge to all pro-Mind Funeral players: Go look at your last 20 draft replays now that we have replays back. Give the loser of the game a free Mind Funeral the turn before they die, and assume it mills for 10. In how many games would the loser turn into a winner?
If you are uninterested in making that effort with your replays, at least start taking note going forward with your new matches, and maybe you’ll eventually be convinced.
I would, but the two times I won with it I was playing in the Friday Night Magic draft at my local card shop, and granted, the level of skill you find there is nowhere near what you find online, therefore, both victories could be due to just bad play.
hey for 10 bucks and the card that is going to sell for more than 10 bucks, i say this is a no brainer.
i like playing the game and i too wish upon a star for a f6
You are correct, I have not tried MF. So far no one has really convinced me that I'm making a mistake either. Sure, it might be a win condition for a game that goes into the extreme late-game (15-20+ turns). However, if the game has gone that long, either both decks are just terrible, or both decks and players are very evenly matched and the game has stalled with both players in topdeck mode. In the latter situation, any halfway decent creature has a better chance of winning the game than MF does - not only that, but the creature likely will still be good if it had been drawn earlier in the game - MF won't be.
Playing MF because it can randomly win some late games is the same as playing 42 cards with the game plan of decking your opponent. Both basically want to do the same thing, and if the games gone long enough for MF to end it, then it likely could be stalled out another 10 turns to deck the ol'fashioned way. Actually, on second thought, its worse, because playing 42 cards doesn't necessarily mean you're wasting a draw on a bad one...
I know that I'm being obstinate about this - and while I doubt I could be swayed, I would be really interested for one of the pro-MF's to post a screenshot of a game that they have won with MF.
R3G2.
unless i took it out of context, you wrote:
"This was almost my first case where M10 combat rules would have altered the result of a play, but not quite. He swings me down to 15 and passes, and I pull another body to wield the sledge in Matca Rioters. In his first main he cycles an Esper Sojourners tapping my Matca Rioters, which seems like odd timing for the effect until he completes the play with Controlled Instincts."
Excellent article, made me think (especially back to the 3 Griffins I have drafted so far, which did me absolutely no good at all :p)
"So far, the only bad side to MF I can think of is being countered, or having it stuck in your opener. Remember now, those of us in favor of it have used it. It seems as if all the opponents of it are critics who haven't even tried it. Is that true?"
Magic is an investment game. We generate resources and invest them in effects that advance our agenda of winning the game. You see it as a neutral result to invest three mana and a card in the effect "shuffle target library." and that's a failure to see the value of your resources. Good players see that as such an obviously bad and highly likely result, they don't need to try it to understand that a singleton MF is a poor investment of resources.
yes i was wondering if someone would catch the mispelling of ado lol I caught it as it went up as I was unable to run through spellcheck as all the names cause word to go crazy so I just looked it over ran a search for some common word mistakes/miscapitlizations and sent it. Aparently I missed a few. But yeah as It has now been posted on wizards.com decks of the week Bant By lord of atlantis. and apparently claytor fixed adeau lol.
3 Coiling Oracle
2 Jhessian Infiltrator
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Oversoul of Dusk
4 Rafiq of the Many
4 Rhox War Monk
4 Shorecrasher Mimic
4 Wilt-Leaf Liege
3 Bant Charm
2 Behemoth Sledge
2 Finest Hour
4 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
2 Plains
2 Temple Garden
4 Treetop Village
3 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Bastion
sideboard
1 Bant Charm
4 Captured Sunlight
2 Glare of Subdual
3 Guttural Response
2 Loxodon Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
Lame.
Lots and lots of testing goes into decks to tune the mana base.
I am on live as JXClaytor. However, I've let my little brother use my wireless adapter so he could try out live.
I think Bant really is a strong shard for kaleidoscope.
How the heck does someone come up with that mana base for that block 5cc deck? I'm just floored looking at it...I honestly want to know how some arrives at determining how to put that mix of all those different lands together.
Hey man.. my xbox gamertag is xlenneyx if you are ever looking for a friendly, non-quitting environment to play in.
You actually do get credit for the win, you just don't get the unlocked card, which for someone like me who could care less about rankings, is just as bad. I had to sit around all day and replay AI matches to get the cards unlocked. Sort of mind numbing.
I'd really have to agree with you on most of your points. Especially the deckbuilding stuff. I find it so painful I don't think I'll be playing for awhile that I draw a card like Wall of Roots or the gain 8 life spell in a 70+ card deck. The graphics and the whole tap X to respond is really cool. Couldn't agree more on a F6 lol!
Men can be removed, tapped, countered, all sorts of vulnerabilities. That was more the point I was trying to make. So far, the only bad side to MF I can think of is being countered, or having it stuck in your opener. Remember now, those of us in favor of it have used it. It seems as if all the opponents of it are critics who haven't even tried it. Is that true?
way to expect mana flood. that's practically half your deck.
got a report from fathers day coming in sometime in the next week and half 2 weeks.
The Hydra is a man. Mind Funeral is a semi useless effect. He isn't say it is just useless during your opening draw but any time other than very late in the game. Akin more to the 10 CMC creatures that Timmy loves so much.
cursing out good players is stuff of legends on MODO. Your experience is no exception. Not quite as funny as being accused of cheating playing chess online but still pretty funny. I had a guy I was playing SWISS draft with tell me he was going to kill himself after our match ended. Next Draft he was merrily drafting away as if nothing happened. Then my finals opponent asked if I knew the player and I said yes Id played him in a previous draft. More anecdotes proceeded. :p
I will only say that I had a game where the player had a mind funeral after a long exhausting game and he won...only to lose the next two. So it is definitely not a bomb even if it can be a weird finisher. I can see why people like it though...it moves a random number of nonlands to your opponent's graveyard + 4 lands. That seems like advantage even if it isn't. It is really just a narrowing of the deck which makes it deadlier if you don't happen to mill off all the bombs/answers.
I'm not fully grasping your point on this. In your latest draft article you picked up an Apocalypse Hydra which won you the game. Isn't that card comparable to some degree as it is pretty much useless in your opening hand? I really fail to see that argument. It's like saying that you shouldn't snag a burn spell unless you plan on burning your opponent to death. All the proponents of the card have simply said that it has worked as an efficient Win Con if the game goes late. How is it then different from your Hydra?
Who ever plays less than 17 lands in a 40 card deck? Way to expect mana screw.
As someone who is interesting in playing Classic (someday), I really would like to see more of these.
I would think a big factor in the higher win percentage in Swiss is, well, the fact that it's Swiss. When you lose in round one, you go on to play another player who lost. Your run in the loser's bracket is going to be inherently easier. There is no loser's bracket in 43--after round one, you either play against another undefeated player, or you are done.
To make the point again: unless it wins you a game via decking *that you would not have won otherwise*, a lone Mind Funeral is wasted mana on a wasted card. For every instance of "it totally won me the game on turn 15" (a significant percentage of which that player would have won anyway) there are 20+ games where it would have been a dead draw. That's just my estimate, but I think it's fair to suggest that fewer than one in 20 limited Magic games go to turn 15, or see a library under 10 cards, even with a "controlling deck."
All the pro-funeral people here are making the common card-assessment mistake of only viewing a card in its best possible light, like a poker player insisting 93 suited is a playable hand because of that big pot it won them that one time.
You want to judge cards by their worst-case scenarios and typical scenarios, and Mind Funeral’s worst-case scenario *is* it's most typical scenario: dead card, wasted mana. “But it’s awesome on turn 15!” is *not* what you want to be saying about your spells.
A challenge to all pro-Mind Funeral players: Go look at your last 20 draft replays now that we have replays back. Give the loser of the game a free Mind Funeral the turn before they die, and assume it mills for 10. In how many games would the loser turn into a winner?
If you are uninterested in making that effort with your replays, at least start taking note going forward with your new matches, and maybe you’ll eventually be convinced.
I would, but the two times I won with it I was playing in the Friday Night Magic draft at my local card shop, and granted, the level of skill you find there is nowhere near what you find online, therefore, both victories could be due to just bad play.