Thanks for the more in-depth explanation. Fun deck... but not in a bad way. :) Congrats again on winning the budget contest. It is nice to see innovation and creativity rewarded so handsomely.
Not true. A copied Mimic has the capability to be activated, but won't be activated unless your opponent subesequently casts a spell in the relevant colors. As such, in the example given, your mimic has been activated and is 5/3, but theirs remains in its original state as a 2/1. I wouldn't have written it if I hadn't exploited it to good effect in the client. If you remain unconvinced, I invite you to test the interaction in the client, and if it appears inaccurate, to file a bug report.
"They make a lot of existing cards worse and only a few cards better. This is not bad for the game."
Hmmm... not so sure about that.
Not sure why people are saying this gives more strat. Chances are people are going to avoid cards like Sakura Tribe Elder or Mog Fanatic. Sacrifice cards in general now seem to be over costed.
Are you going to waste that 3rd turn drop on a Fulminator Mage? Doubtful.
I do like how everyone convinces themselves this is for the better.
Sure a lot of these picks were really bad, but hindsight is 20/20. Everyone here has had weeks of experience with RRR by now and as Basic Land said, this was his first RRR draft. As a 1900 infinite limited player, I took Anathamancers very highly the first 1-2 days of release events, they were reselling for 1.5-2 tix each! Hindsight tells us that those grey ogres would be going 13th-14th. So maybe his drafting skills are terrible, or maybe he didn't make his drafting intentions clear enough to the reader, isn't that what the discussion is for?
"Cytoshape works best as removal alongside Plaxcaster Frogling or Vigean Hydropon, but it also works well with Shorecrasher Mimic, as the spell activates yours into a 5/3 even as it turns the opposing creature into a 2/1."
If you target Shorecrasher Mimic with Snakeform, the Mimic's triggered ability goes on the stack on top of Snakeform. It resolves first, making the Mimic a 5/3 Trampler. Then Snakeform resolves, making the Mimic a 1/1 Snake with no abilities. How do you get a 5/3 mono-green Snake? Am I missing something?
illusory demon isn't a bad card. its a 4/3 flying creature for 3. ignore that other dude, hes kinda clueless calling it unplayable. it's not a first pick, but i would be surprised getting it past 12th pick. an unplayable card is tukatongue thalid (can't wait for people to argue this one).
skittering skirge was good in urza block, it was a 3/2 flyer for 2 with a similar drawback.
the 4/3 is good because you can set it up where u will win the race when u play him, or if you are on defense you can play him, then trade with one of their attackers and the drawback is negligible.
Thanks, I apologize if I was overly-defensive, I just didn't want to be lumped in with walkthroughs by players with a results-oriented mentality, when I am all about the decisions. I do appreciate that you took the time to make and post pick feedback, and hope you continue to do so.
It's always harder to lower the power level of the game, even if it makes the game easier to understand and it makes the game more challenging by introducing more choices into the game.
I think introducing Planeswalkers to the game is similar to the M2010 combat rule changes. They both change the game, give players more choices, and add to the flavor of the game. The main difference is that introducing Planeswalkers made a lot of existing cards better (ie, direct damage can be used to kill planeswalkers) and a few cards worse. The M2010 combat rule changes do the reverse. They make a lot of existing cards worse and only a few cards better. This is not bad for the game. But it does tend to upset a lot of people.
People hate change, but these rules could very well push magic into a better realm. Pump being nerfed seems so minor. Gadot hit the mark, all while sipping coffee and wearing a crazy mask. =P
Phantasmal Fiend is by far the best creature in the draft, and the ability to play with it's P/T after damage stacked is a major ability.
But I agree with both posters above - especially PRJ's comments about how the combat damage step has become more complicated in terms of decisions - not less so.
The fervor over damage not stacking has become pretty ridiculous. Listening to people talk about it, you'd think the new rule has dramatically changed the outcome of every single combat step. (Not saying you guys were over the top in the podcast, but just on the web in general right now.)
Not being able to sac and deal damage creates tougher choices, and tougher choices favor the superior player. Period.
As for weakening pump, that too is being WAY overblown by everyone from top pros on down. The only time this really matters is when you attack an opponent with mana up, you have pump, and your creature is blocked by one that would trade if nothing changes but could be saved by pump.
Does that one infrequent case really make pump that much worse? I don't think it does. And if it makes it slightly worse? Fine, instant-speed removal goes up a notch, pump effects go down a notch. It is not a huge deal, though.
Anyway, I can't believe how far in the minority I am among Spikes in thinking that this is a good rule change given the goals behind it. People don't like change, and are reflexively blowing the strategic implications way out of proportion.
I just want to make a quick comment on the end of DotS. This does not "dumb down" Magic, and we do not lose any strategic decisions. If anything, we get more.
Under the old rules, everyone who is even moderately skilled knows that you stack damage, then sacrifice. It is like not playing stuff during the first main phase if you don't need to, or holding excess lands in hand as a bluff. It's not skill - it's fundamentals.
Under the new system, though, you have to make choices.
For example, under the old system, if your opponent sent a Nayas Hushblade into your Qasali Pridemage, and the opponent had an Obelisk in play, you stacked damage and killed the Obelisk. Now, you have to decide which is more important, killing the Hushblade or the Obelisk. It is no longer a free and automatic two for one.
Combat is also more complex.
Here's how combat works in the current rules:
Enter combat, players can play instants and abilities.
Declare attackers, players can play instants and abilities.
Declare blockers, players can play instants and abilities.
Stack damage, players can play instants and abilities.
End of combat, players can play instants and abilities.
Here's how the new combat works.
Enter combat, players can play instants and abilities.
Declare attackers, players can play instants and abilities.
Declare blockers, if gang blocks happen, order blockers, players can play instants and abilities.
Damage happens.
End of combat, players can play instants and abilities.
In the past, you would swing, block, maybe play instants, stack damage and then play more instants. Now, you can play the same instants and abilities before and after attackers, blockers and after combat. The difference is that you cannot wait to see how damage will be dealt before using pump to save your guys. Instead, you have to use your tricks early enough that the opponent can respond.
Ordering blockers also appears to be more strategic, and more complex, than assigning damage is now. For example, assume that you a swinging with a Yoked Plowbeast, into an opponent with 3 1/1 Goblin tokens, a 1/3 Aethsworn Knight and a Canyon Minotaur. Your opponent blocks with all of them. You have a Might of Alara (for +3/+3) and your opponent has five lands - one each type - untapped and one card in hand. Under the old rules, you could count on stacking damage, then using your pump to save your guy, and killing at least two of his guys by putting 3 damage on the Minotaur or the Knight, and 1 each on two tokens. If he has a trick, he can asave one, assuming he didn't have a Sigil Blessing.
Under the new rules, you are pretty certain to kill one guy, and maybe more, depending on how you order the blockers, and what trick your opponent might have. Let's assume that your priority is the Knight, plus some tokens. You order the blockers Knight, token, token, token, Minotaur. After casting the Might of Alara, you will be doing 8 damage, so you will get the Knight and three tokens if he has no tricks. If he has Might of Alara (for +5/+5) you will get the Knight, no tokens. Other pump will save some number of tokens. If you think he has the Might, you could be better off ordering the blockers as token, token, token, dudes - even if he casts Might, you still kill all three. If you think he's got nothing, then Knight, Minotuar, tokens, is the right order - you trade your Plowbeast and pump for four of his creatures.
It seems to me that this is not less complex than the old damage on the stack. It also seems to me that I pump spells and bounce still have some relevance. It is just going to be different, and harder until we get used to it. We are losing some crutches, but it will be better afterwards.
You missed the point you target your mimic w/ the Snakeform, so it's a greem sanke, and can block the Oversoul to stop dame to you. As an added trick you could turn a Mimic into a Kitchen Fink using Cytoshape, and block the Oversoul. I'd be so tempted to add just one card to the mix Fate Transfer.
"A note on the interaction between the mimic and the two utility spells: the 5/3 trample will override almost any other size setting criteria, save counters. If you hit a mimic with Snakeform, it can successfully block Oversoul of Dusk."
The oversoul has protection from blue. You can't snakeform it and you can't block it with a shorecrasher mimic. It's also rather unclear with your description what you are targetting with the snakeform.
why don't everyone wait to play with the new rules before handing out sweeping generalizations?
Thanks for the more in-depth explanation. Fun deck... but not in a bad way. :) Congrats again on winning the budget contest. It is nice to see innovation and creativity rewarded so handsomely.
It varies depending on the game state. I considered Mirrorweave, but I preferred the verstatility of the cheaper on-color option.
Not true. A copied Mimic has the capability to be activated, but won't be activated unless your opponent subesequently casts a spell in the relevant colors. As such, in the example given, your mimic has been activated and is 5/3, but theirs remains in its original state as a 2/1. I wouldn't have written it if I hadn't exploited it to good effect in the client. If you remain unconvinced, I invite you to test the interaction in the client, and if it appears inaccurate, to file a bug report.
Nice deck. How often do you use Ctyoshape as removal? Did you test out Mirroweave for one-sided wraths?
"They make a lot of existing cards worse and only a few cards better. This is not bad for the game."
Hmmm... not so sure about that.
Not sure why people are saying this gives more strat. Chances are people are going to avoid cards like Sakura Tribe Elder or Mog Fanatic. Sacrifice cards in general now seem to be over costed.
Are you going to waste that 3rd turn drop on a Fulminator Mage? Doubtful.
I do like how everyone convinces themselves this is for the better.
Like we had a choice haha.
But ah well... whats done is done.
Sure a lot of these picks were really bad, but hindsight is 20/20. Everyone here has had weeks of experience with RRR by now and as Basic Land said, this was his first RRR draft. As a 1900 infinite limited player, I took Anathamancers very highly the first 1-2 days of release events, they were reselling for 1.5-2 tix each! Hindsight tells us that those grey ogres would be going 13th-14th. So maybe his drafting skills are terrible, or maybe he didn't make his drafting intentions clear enough to the reader, isn't that what the discussion is for?
And Exodus' comments came from left field.
I agree with TopBossUltra.
I do fail to see the point in people hating on Motu for writing these articles.. I personally enjoy reading these articles.
Above post is correct, also
"Cytoshape works best as removal alongside Plaxcaster Frogling or Vigean Hydropon, but it also works well with Shorecrasher Mimic, as the spell activates yours into a 5/3 even as it turns the opposing creature into a 2/1."
Both creatures will end up 5/3.
If you target Shorecrasher Mimic with Snakeform, the Mimic's triggered ability goes on the stack on top of Snakeform. It resolves first, making the Mimic a 5/3 Trampler. Then Snakeform resolves, making the Mimic a 1/1 Snake with no abilities. How do you get a 5/3 mono-green Snake? Am I missing something?
how did you do in the last pro tour
illusory demon isn't a bad card. its a 4/3 flying creature for 3. ignore that other dude, hes kinda clueless calling it unplayable. it's not a first pick, but i would be surprised getting it past 12th pick. an unplayable card is tukatongue thalid (can't wait for people to argue this one).
skittering skirge was good in urza block, it was a 3/2 flyer for 2 with a similar drawback.
the 4/3 is good because you can set it up where u will win the race when u play him, or if you are on defense you can play him, then trade with one of their attackers and the drawback is negligible.
Thanks, I apologize if I was overly-defensive, I just didn't want to be lumped in with walkthroughs by players with a results-oriented mentality, when I am all about the decisions. I do appreciate that you took the time to make and post pick feedback, and hope you continue to do so.
@ Mastaflash
I guess I am just a hug guy myself ;)
It's always harder to lower the power level of the game, even if it makes the game easier to understand and it makes the game more challenging by introducing more choices into the game.
I think introducing Planeswalkers to the game is similar to the M2010 combat rule changes. They both change the game, give players more choices, and add to the flavor of the game. The main difference is that introducing Planeswalkers made a lot of existing cards better (ie, direct damage can be used to kill planeswalkers) and a few cards worse. The M2010 combat rule changes do the reverse. They make a lot of existing cards worse and only a few cards better. This is not bad for the game. But it does tend to upset a lot of people.
People hate change, but these rules could very well push magic into a better realm. Pump being nerfed seems so minor. Gadot hit the mark, all while sipping coffee and wearing a crazy mask. =P
I loved this article Walker. It was outright outstanding, and brought to light advanced level strategy in Classic.
Everyone interested in seing how to play competitive classic should should read this article - please keep writing by account.
Phantasmal Fiend is by far the best creature in the draft, and the ability to play with it's P/T after damage stacked is a major ability.
But I agree with both posters above - especially PRJ's comments about how the combat damage step has become more complicated in terms of decisions - not less so.
Good contest and congratz to winners.
The fervor over damage not stacking has become pretty ridiculous. Listening to people talk about it, you'd think the new rule has dramatically changed the outcome of every single combat step. (Not saying you guys were over the top in the podcast, but just on the web in general right now.)
Not being able to sac and deal damage creates tougher choices, and tougher choices favor the superior player. Period.
As for weakening pump, that too is being WAY overblown by everyone from top pros on down. The only time this really matters is when you attack an opponent with mana up, you have pump, and your creature is blocked by one that would trade if nothing changes but could be saved by pump.
Does that one infrequent case really make pump that much worse? I don't think it does. And if it makes it slightly worse? Fine, instant-speed removal goes up a notch, pump effects go down a notch. It is not a huge deal, though.
Anyway, I can't believe how far in the minority I am among Spikes in thinking that this is a good rule change given the goals behind it. People don't like change, and are reflexively blowing the strategic implications way out of proportion.
I just want to make a quick comment on the end of DotS. This does not "dumb down" Magic, and we do not lose any strategic decisions. If anything, we get more.
Under the old rules, everyone who is even moderately skilled knows that you stack damage, then sacrifice. It is like not playing stuff during the first main phase if you don't need to, or holding excess lands in hand as a bluff. It's not skill - it's fundamentals.
Under the new system, though, you have to make choices.
For example, under the old system, if your opponent sent a Nayas Hushblade into your Qasali Pridemage, and the opponent had an Obelisk in play, you stacked damage and killed the Obelisk. Now, you have to decide which is more important, killing the Hushblade or the Obelisk. It is no longer a free and automatic two for one.
Combat is also more complex.
Here's how combat works in the current rules:
Enter combat, players can play instants and abilities.
Declare attackers, players can play instants and abilities.
Declare blockers, players can play instants and abilities.
Stack damage, players can play instants and abilities.
End of combat, players can play instants and abilities.
Here's how the new combat works.
Enter combat, players can play instants and abilities.
Declare attackers, players can play instants and abilities.
Declare blockers, if gang blocks happen, order blockers, players can play instants and abilities.
Damage happens.
End of combat, players can play instants and abilities.
In the past, you would swing, block, maybe play instants, stack damage and then play more instants. Now, you can play the same instants and abilities before and after attackers, blockers and after combat. The difference is that you cannot wait to see how damage will be dealt before using pump to save your guys. Instead, you have to use your tricks early enough that the opponent can respond.
Ordering blockers also appears to be more strategic, and more complex, than assigning damage is now. For example, assume that you a swinging with a Yoked Plowbeast, into an opponent with 3 1/1 Goblin tokens, a 1/3 Aethsworn Knight and a Canyon Minotaur. Your opponent blocks with all of them. You have a Might of Alara (for +3/+3) and your opponent has five lands - one each type - untapped and one card in hand. Under the old rules, you could count on stacking damage, then using your pump to save your guy, and killing at least two of his guys by putting 3 damage on the Minotaur or the Knight, and 1 each on two tokens. If he has a trick, he can asave one, assuming he didn't have a Sigil Blessing.
Under the new rules, you are pretty certain to kill one guy, and maybe more, depending on how you order the blockers, and what trick your opponent might have. Let's assume that your priority is the Knight, plus some tokens. You order the blockers Knight, token, token, token, Minotaur. After casting the Might of Alara, you will be doing 8 damage, so you will get the Knight and three tokens if he has no tricks. If he has Might of Alara (for +5/+5) you will get the Knight, no tokens. Other pump will save some number of tokens. If you think he has the Might, you could be better off ordering the blockers as token, token, token, dudes - even if he casts Might, you still kill all three. If you think he's got nothing, then Knight, Minotuar, tokens, is the right order - you trade your Plowbeast and pump for four of his creatures.
It seems to me that this is not less complex than the old damage on the stack. It also seems to me that I pump spells and bounce still have some relevance. It is just going to be different, and harder until we get used to it. We are losing some crutches, but it will be better afterwards.
Good podcast, BTW.
You missed the point you target your mimic w/ the Snakeform, so it's a greem sanke, and can block the Oversoul to stop dame to you. As an added trick you could turn a Mimic into a Kitchen Fink using Cytoshape, and block the Oversoul. I'd be so tempted to add just one card to the mix Fate Transfer.
Targeting the Mimic with the Snakeform, which will turn it into a 5/3 green snake, which can trade with Oversoul of Dusk.
"A note on the interaction between the mimic and the two utility spells: the 5/3 trample will override almost any other size setting criteria, save counters. If you hit a mimic with Snakeform, it can successfully block Oversoul of Dusk."
The oversoul has protection from blue. You can't snakeform it and you can't block it with a shorecrasher mimic. It's also rather unclear with your description what you are targetting with the snakeform.
Looks a nice deck to play AJ, well done on the win.