I dont want to sound too harsh but your picking or the thought process involved could need some improvement. That you can play 2-1 anyway is a testament to your playing skill I guess. :)
I dont have time to mention everything but it already begins with the first pick where you dont even mention the removal but instead take a guy that already kinda commits you to black as a main color.
At two times you are passing the in-color uncommon Tangarths Rage, which is actually a solid and flexible card.
Fireslinger over Grindstone (bye bye $15) is fine in a PE T8 or something, but this leaves the impression that you are not checking all the cards in a pack.
And what is up with your late/hate picks ? Dream Cache over Wind Drake, Pit Imp over Mounted Archers, Thalakos Seer over Giant Crab ?
of the 4 tempest drafts i played i won 3 with powersinks, counterspells, capsizes and some finishers. yes counterspells are viable in this format. The one I lost I branched out with green white. overall hate drafting the set though.
I lost to the 5c deck in the semis and once I saw the deck, I wanted to hurl a bit. The fact that every relevant stabalizing / finishing card is a 2-of (save Elspeth, which has 3) pissed me off to no end. Stoic Angel and Battlegrace Angel are basically the 'core' of the deck allowing it to take advantage of the mountains of removal it runs. I highly suggest dumping those garbage Thoctar and getting at least a 3/3 split going if not cutting back on Visionaries. I don't really get why they even want to be here, a 2 mana cantrip that chumps? Pretty awful against everything except WW. Naya Charm is underrated, card is amazing.
In a swiss draft where you are guaranteed to have a pack minimum (if you are decent) I cannot understand passing the most expensive card in the set, no matter what. Can you explain this move? Did you not know?
thanks for covering tempest. i have no idea how to draft it and have been waiting for a walk through to appear. also, thanks for doing this column. my online rating has gone up more than 70 pts in the last 6 weeks from reading your draft reviews.
I totally agree I have been testing your list and losing the singleton breeding pool to a ghost quarter or a hymn to tourach is game ending. I have not had chance to play it in the post wasteland era but it for sure is not viable as is. I think just using 3 breeding pool should be sufficient though and the gush helps to duck the wastelands too so i think this deck is still very viable UTH
I agree totally. Why not the Jungle Shrine there is only 4 one drops? Seems like a no-brainer addition but the deck did make it to 2nd place so it must be playable. Personally I like the Bloodpyre, I'm running a more aggro version of this deck with Bloodpyre in the board but it sees a lot play especially against Naya and Bant decks.
Good article but that Boros deck's mana makes me want to die. You have 4 one drops, run some freaking tap lands. The Panoramas are more disruptive to this deck than lands coming in tapped due to the 8 WW spells. Run 4x Jungle Shrine. This will also let you cut the mountain in the board which I think we can all agree is loose.
I also don't think it needs Bloodpire, it has plenty of exaulted to attack into a battlegrace, resounding silence to RFG them, Knight-Captain to Fog, and of course O Ring.
Even if I and other active classic players might not be the target audience for this article I felt it lacking of content and substance.
You are basically writing "T1 Necro wins" and repeat that rather obvious statement over and over. Not even one word about why you are not playing Chrome Mox if T1 Necro is that good. Not even one word about sideboard plans, too.
With a deck as simple as this it would be far more useful to write about the situations when you are not able to simply lay down Necro T1 or T2 and go nuts. Or at least write about the discard choices after drawing 18 cards and actually explain to a new player of this deck why you think that drawing 18 on T1 is better than spreading the draws over more turns. Surely there must be situations where your action differs based on what your opp is playing/doing.
There was much more untapped potential here and I had expected more from this site and from you. I mean if you dont want to reveal real insight because you'd rather win against uninformed players thats fine I guess, but then writing an lackluster article might not be the best idea.
Yes, the cost to play classic can be extremely high and therefore demoralising. However, do not give up, just don't. One good think about eternal formats is that the metagame doesn't change completely every time a new set comes out, so most archetypes remain viable for years (with some changes of course). But the point is, you can acquire the money cards at your own pace and when you finally have them, Classic will still be there for you. It's not like buying a playset of Mutavaults to play them in Standard only for one year.
My own experience is that i decided to get into Classic almost a year ago and it took me several months of saving and trading off my standard cards to finally complete my playset of Force of Will and other cards i needed. But it was worth it!
The best way, as UTH and spg said, is to start with a FoW-less deck and go from there. There are several great options to keep you entertained.
To raise the usefulness of the deck Supplement from the start of the next article I will start adding comments to accompany each deck. Noting the main gameplan of the deck and how this particular list varies from the standard list in that genre. If anyone else has any ideas how to expand and improve the deck supplement Id love to hear from you. Thanks UTH
This is a very good point about Dredge. The list currently in the Top 8 is from Lucindo who has made multiple Classic Top 8s in the past few months. That being said Lucindo is widely regarded as one of the best Dredge players on MTGO, and I think he normally plays Extended so ported his extended format dredge deck to the event. I suspect he does not own Dredge. In previous decklist supplements I have used a list containing Lions Eye Diamond, but where possible I like to use the lists from the current block of Events that the main article refers to. You are completely correct that the Diamond version is strictly better as it opens up the possibility of some insane plays, the diamondless version is good for a newcomer beginner if budget is tight. I think going forward I need to Thrash out the supplement article with keynotes next to each deck, this will probably be more useful to the reader, although more time consuming for me. I think this could be a a big improvment to the series so I will try and get this done next time. Thanks for the comments and I agree that Lions Eye Diamond should be in Classic Dredge. Looking forward to seeing the effect of Tempest all the best UTH
Sorry I was maybe a little harsh. I thought my quotes were self-explanatory. The first quote should actually have been this:
"If the player is at 18 life, or 19 and wants to hold a Force, then 17 times."
Wants to hold a Force? Isn't that why this deck plays Force? Protecting a t1 Necro is a good start, but when you draw 15+ cards hitting a Force should be in the picture. You have the same odds of gaining life with Spike as you do of hitting a Force.
The second one was kind of a joke. I play good cards in my deck but I'll give anything not to cast them. Heh, just struck me as funny.
I don't know where Mr hillbilly got that I'm just now learning to play the Necro deck, but I don't see how it would have any relevance if I were. Isn't this article for people who haven't played it before? The things I pointed out are just obviously questionable to someone who has never even seen the deck before.
I know these are free and I appreciate that, but for everyone's sake who is actually learning to play with/against Necro from the article, I think they could do better in who they find to present it.
I don't really have any grudge against Javasci, but I did play him in a 2hg match once and his plays were truly bizarre/terrible. That's all.
Classic is kind of funny though, in that there are like 20 people online that play it and Javasci is apparently one of the above average players.
This article was meant to be about ways to beat Necro, but I completely forgot about Halo (because almost nobody plays it) and cost increasers (because they're pretty rare in Classic too, although I was playing around with them recently).
To spg especially, but general: When I play necro turn 1, I play it with the plan of, win quickly. So, I always necro for the max I can afford, and I think it only failed me once, out of three PE top 8s plus many practice games with Necro.
This also means that Daze is much handier than Gush - I'd rather have a card that protects turn 1 Necro than a card that's basically win more. (If you have enough storm to tendrils leaving opponent at 4, you can necro to find another soul spike. I've done that many times.
I enjoyed the article showing your thoughts around building the deck from scratch. Despite the loss of some of the article, probably the best/most interesting one written by you that I have read. Building a deck from scratch with nothing but an idea and then researching what to put in it is one of the most enjoyable things about magic for me.
I have a real issue with the dredge list however, especially if people new to the format are going to use it as a reference. I will explain my issue in BIG BOLD PRINT:
IT IS INEXCUSABLE TO HAVE A DREDGE LIST IN CLASSIC WITHOUT LION'S EYE DIAMONDS.
Firstly Thanks spg for the excellent reply and link to the supplementary decklists. There are many decks that do not require Force of will. Many discussions have occured elsewhere about the merits of entering the eternal formats. Undeniably the intial barrier of entry is higher but I honestly believe that the cost of Classic is lower LONGTERM than that required to consistant and competively play extended or standard. The good thing about cards like Force of Will is that they are unlikley to drop considerably in price (unless there is a reprint or a promo release of course). If your entry budget is low then you can consider affinity, burn, or dredge, and even goblins (which has dropped in price since the extended rotation and has acheived good Top8 results in the recent Classic Events. Wizards have already announced plans to support legacy online too so there will be too formats in which to use the cards. Additionally many decks have the same core cards. Although the cardpool is potentially massive in reality the cardpool of playable classic-calibre cards is not all that big. Many of these cards can be picked up very cheapily. Finally if you are interested in Classic Play Id recommend you checkout early articles in this series in addition to www.classicquarter.com If you do decide to play classic you will get a warm and friendly welcome from the amazing community of classic.
I stopped watching after 2nd pick. Evincar's Justice is insane and one of the best cards in the set.
I dont want to sound too harsh but your picking or the thought process involved could need some improvement. That you can play 2-1 anyway is a testament to your playing skill I guess. :)
I dont have time to mention everything but it already begins with the first pick where you dont even mention the removal but instead take a guy that already kinda commits you to black as a main color.
At two times you are passing the in-color uncommon Tangarths Rage, which is actually a solid and flexible card.
Fireslinger over Grindstone (bye bye $15) is fine in a PE T8 or something, but this leaves the impression that you are not checking all the cards in a pack.
And what is up with your late/hate picks ? Dream Cache over Wind Drake, Pit Imp over Mounted Archers, Thalakos Seer over Giant Crab ?
of the 4 tempest drafts i played i won 3 with powersinks, counterspells, capsizes and some finishers. yes counterspells are viable in this format. The one I lost I branched out with green white. overall hate drafting the set though.
I lost to the 5c deck in the semis and once I saw the deck, I wanted to hurl a bit. The fact that every relevant stabalizing / finishing card is a 2-of (save Elspeth, which has 3) pissed me off to no end. Stoic Angel and Battlegrace Angel are basically the 'core' of the deck allowing it to take advantage of the mountains of removal it runs. I highly suggest dumping those garbage Thoctar and getting at least a 3/3 split going if not cutting back on Visionaries. I don't really get why they even want to be here, a 2 mana cantrip that chumps? Pretty awful against everything except WW. Naya Charm is underrated, card is amazing.
Just my slgiht rant.
I see 2 Wrath of Gods in the card price change section, is one of those supposed to be Damnation?
In a swiss draft where you are guaranteed to have a pack minimum (if you are decent) I cannot understand passing the most expensive card in the set, no matter what. Can you explain this move? Did you not know?
Thanks,
ch
thanks for covering tempest. i have no idea how to draft it and have been waiting for a walk through to appear. also, thanks for doing this column. my online rating has gone up more than 70 pts in the last 6 weeks from reading your draft reviews.
when i saw this list that was the first thing i changed . 3x breeding pool for sure.
yes the extra pain hurts a lot but being able to play my win cons is good.
alo i dont know if it was right but i dropped the opts for fire/ice that way i could tap a biggun to get through.
I totally agree I have been testing your list and losing the singleton breeding pool to a ghost quarter or a hymn to tourach is game ending. I have not had chance to play it in the post wasteland era but it for sure is not viable as is. I think just using 3 breeding pool should be sufficient though and the gush helps to duck the wastelands too so i think this deck is still very viable UTH
I agree totally. Why not the Jungle Shrine there is only 4 one drops? Seems like a no-brainer addition but the deck did make it to 2nd place so it must be playable. Personally I like the Bloodpyre, I'm running a more aggro version of this deck with Bloodpyre in the board but it sees a lot play especially against Naya and Bant decks.
Good article but that Boros deck's mana makes me want to die. You have 4 one drops, run some freaking tap lands. The Panoramas are more disruptive to this deck than lands coming in tapped due to the 8 WW spells. Run 4x Jungle Shrine. This will also let you cut the mountain in the board which I think we can all agree is loose.
I also don't think it needs Bloodpire, it has plenty of exaulted to attack into a battlegrace, resounding silence to RFG them, Knight-Captain to Fog, and of course O Ring.
I really like the analysis, very useful.
About grow, I think that wastelands marks the end of singleton lands. Probably it is better go straight to 3 colors.
I do not think that is a typo, I think that is just confusion in regards to data :)
haha best article ever... ending on a decklist. Such an abrupt ending. I love it.
Even if I and other active classic players might not be the target audience for this article I felt it lacking of content and substance.
You are basically writing "T1 Necro wins" and repeat that rather obvious statement over and over. Not even one word about why you are not playing Chrome Mox if T1 Necro is that good. Not even one word about sideboard plans, too.
With a deck as simple as this it would be far more useful to write about the situations when you are not able to simply lay down Necro T1 or T2 and go nuts. Or at least write about the discard choices after drawing 18 cards and actually explain to a new player of this deck why you think that drawing 18 on T1 is better than spreading the draws over more turns. Surely there must be situations where your action differs based on what your opp is playing/doing.
There was much more untapped potential here and I had expected more from this site and from you. I mean if you dont want to reveal real insight because you'd rather win against uninformed players thats fine I guess, but then writing an lackluster article might not be the best idea.
Yes, the cost to play classic can be extremely high and therefore demoralising. However, do not give up, just don't. One good think about eternal formats is that the metagame doesn't change completely every time a new set comes out, so most archetypes remain viable for years (with some changes of course). But the point is, you can acquire the money cards at your own pace and when you finally have them, Classic will still be there for you. It's not like buying a playset of Mutavaults to play them in Standard only for one year.
My own experience is that i decided to get into Classic almost a year ago and it took me several months of saving and trading off my standard cards to finally complete my playset of Force of Will and other cards i needed. But it was worth it!
The best way, as UTH and spg said, is to start with a FoW-less deck and go from there. There are several great options to keep you entertained.
To raise the usefulness of the deck Supplement from the start of the next article I will start adding comments to accompany each deck. Noting the main gameplan of the deck and how this particular list varies from the standard list in that genre. If anyone else has any ideas how to expand and improve the deck supplement Id love to hear from you. Thanks UTH
Sorry I have noticed a typo in the main article - FatManInALittleCoat has taken two different decks to the Top8 not the four stated sorry. UTH
It should read I dont think he owns Lion's Eye Diamond :P
Hi Country,
This is a very good point about Dredge. The list currently in the Top 8 is from Lucindo who has made multiple Classic Top 8s in the past few months. That being said Lucindo is widely regarded as one of the best Dredge players on MTGO, and I think he normally plays Extended so ported his extended format dredge deck to the event. I suspect he does not own Dredge. In previous decklist supplements I have used a list containing Lions Eye Diamond, but where possible I like to use the lists from the current block of Events that the main article refers to. You are completely correct that the Diamond version is strictly better as it opens up the possibility of some insane plays, the diamondless version is good for a newcomer beginner if budget is tight. I think going forward I need to Thrash out the supplement article with keynotes next to each deck, this will probably be more useful to the reader, although more time consuming for me. I think this could be a a big improvment to the series so I will try and get this done next time. Thanks for the comments and I agree that Lions Eye Diamond should be in Classic Dredge. Looking forward to seeing the effect of Tempest all the best UTH
Sorry I was maybe a little harsh. I thought my quotes were self-explanatory. The first quote should actually have been this:
"If the player is at 18 life, or 19 and wants to hold a Force, then 17 times."
Wants to hold a Force? Isn't that why this deck plays Force? Protecting a t1 Necro is a good start, but when you draw 15+ cards hitting a Force should be in the picture. You have the same odds of gaining life with Spike as you do of hitting a Force.
The second one was kind of a joke. I play good cards in my deck but I'll give anything not to cast them. Heh, just struck me as funny.
I don't know where Mr hillbilly got that I'm just now learning to play the Necro deck, but I don't see how it would have any relevance if I were. Isn't this article for people who haven't played it before? The things I pointed out are just obviously questionable to someone who has never even seen the deck before.
I know these are free and I appreciate that, but for everyone's sake who is actually learning to play with/against Necro from the article, I think they could do better in who they find to present it.
I don't really have any grudge against Javasci, but I did play him in a 2hg match once and his plays were truly bizarre/terrible. That's all.
Classic is kind of funny though, in that there are like 20 people online that play it and Javasci is apparently one of the above average players.
This article was meant to be about ways to beat Necro, but I completely forgot about Halo (because almost nobody plays it) and cost increasers (because they're pretty rare in Classic too, although I was playing around with them recently).
To spg especially, but general: When I play necro turn 1, I play it with the plan of, win quickly. So, I always necro for the max I can afford, and I think it only failed me once, out of three PE top 8s plus many practice games with Necro.
This also means that Daze is much handier than Gush - I'd rather have a card that protects turn 1 Necro than a card that's basically win more. (If you have enough storm to tendrils leaving opponent at 4, you can necro to find another soul spike. I've done that many times.
I enjoyed the article showing your thoughts around building the deck from scratch. Despite the loss of some of the article, probably the best/most interesting one written by you that I have read. Building a deck from scratch with nothing but an idea and then researching what to put in it is one of the most enjoyable things about magic for me.
1st off, I love the article UTH.
I have a real issue with the dredge list however, especially if people new to the format are going to use it as a reference. I will explain my issue in BIG BOLD PRINT:
IT IS INEXCUSABLE TO HAVE A DREDGE LIST IN CLASSIC WITHOUT LION'S EYE DIAMONDS.
Thanks and have a wonderful day :D
Firstly Thanks spg for the excellent reply and link to the supplementary decklists. There are many decks that do not require Force of will. Many discussions have occured elsewhere about the merits of entering the eternal formats. Undeniably the intial barrier of entry is higher but I honestly believe that the cost of Classic is lower LONGTERM than that required to consistant and competively play extended or standard. The good thing about cards like Force of Will is that they are unlikley to drop considerably in price (unless there is a reprint or a promo release of course). If your entry budget is low then you can consider affinity, burn, or dredge, and even goblins (which has dropped in price since the extended rotation and has acheived good Top8 results in the recent Classic Events. Wizards have already announced plans to support legacy online too so there will be too formats in which to use the cards. Additionally many decks have the same core cards. Although the cardpool is potentially massive in reality the cardpool of playable classic-calibre cards is not all that big. Many of these cards can be picked up very cheapily. Finally if you are interested in Classic Play Id recommend you checkout early articles in this series in addition to www.classicquarter.com If you do decide to play classic you will get a warm and friendly welcome from the amazing community of classic.