I have a long history with Flash. Back when the Sixth edition rules came out, I wrote a long post to the Wizards listserve about Flash under Sixth. To sum up, I objected to blue getting an instant-speed Stone Rain (Flash Avalanche Riders), Terror (Flash Nekretaal), Enchantment Tinker (Flash Rector), etc., etc. I don't know how much my original post had to do with the eratta, but it did ignite a firestorm of comments, and the eratta followed shortly thereafter.
Flash is a method of cheating creatures into play for a much lower mana cost. Other spells that have allowed cheating of mana costs have included Academy Rector, Tinker, Oath of Druids, Animate Dead, Replenish and more. All of them have been banned or restricted in various formats.
Wizards has been increasing the mana cost of cards tat put creatures directly into play. Originally, B plus some life was considered "reasonable." Now these cards are nin mana sorceries (Dragonstorm, Tooth and Nail), and they are still close to broken. A two mana instant is too good.
True, the Flash / Protean Hulk combo kill did not originate years before Hulk was printed, but I had a Flash combo kill (just not a very good one) back before the original eratta. Flash also powered out some broken CIP effects starting with 6th Edition rules. (Prior to sixth edition, the way interactions like this were handled is that the netrep made a ruling. Bethmo had said Flash didn't work the way it now does, so it didn't. With Sixth Edition, that all changed.)
GP Columbus didn't need pacts to get Flash banned.
Yeah for those wondering the story of Flash it goes something like this: Printed in Mirage, who cares. Academy Rector comes out, before this Wizards knew that this could mean bad things with flash. Flash's wording changed so that creature doesn't go into play unless you pay full cost. Last spring: WOTC stealth-unerratas Flash. Future Sight prerelease/spoilers show the U and G pacts. GP Columbus happens just before pacts are legal to play. Flash does very well and wins the GP. Flash is banned in Legacy.
Sure I missed some points there but that's the bulk of it.
*Ringleader*! :P But yeah, those goblin/elf cards will start dropping right away due to these being released, not a ton, but definately enough so that it won't be worth it to buy the decks.
First off gentlemen, Utopia Sprawl is in Dissension. Not Standard legal.
Second, Utopia Sprawl is Enchant Forest. There are 6 Forests in the whole deck. So even if it were Standard legal, it would still be a horrible choice.
Now, as for the deck, I tooled around with it in TP for a minute, and I have to say I don't really know why Garruk is in the deck in the first place. Garruk is very aggro, this deck is very control. Even in the situations where he would be good he just seems so win-more that it hurts.
I played 5 matches against 4 aggro, 1 U/W Pickles, went 2-2 vs. aggro, 1-0 vs. control. The control matchup had to be won post sideboard, was totally dominated game one. At no point during any of the games would a resolved Garruk have done anything but maybe soak up a few points of damage that were intended for my facehole. My first change to the deck was to -3 Garruk, +1 Boom/Bust, +1 Molten Disaster, +1 Avalanche Riders.
I played a very similar deck during TSP/PLC TSP Block, and the turn 3 land hit is very important vs. control, often because it is unexpected game 1. After boarding the deck appears to absolutely annihilate control strategies, so stealing game 1 is more important than usual IMO.
I added the extra Boom/Bust because geddon = gg, the extra disaster for the board sweeper that should help a little vs. aggro (I prayed for it during both of the aggro match losses, it would have won me the deciding game both times if I had drawn it), and the extra riders to hit the turn 3 LD a little more often.
I haven't had time to test it with the changes, will do so tomorrow when I get off work, and will post results then. All in all, fun deck to play, definately has game. Kudos.
PS: I dropped the 4th CotH before I started playing due to the fact that I despise 61 card decks with a passion. Feel free to allow this to color your opinion of my results as you see fit.
No, but Academy Rector could be used to get a powerful enchantment like Yawgmoth's Bargain into play so you could win the game very quickly. Since having an extra 10+ cards in your hand should be able to get you something good.
Hmm okay feeling somewhat responsible for this, let's see if I can find something to help it out
Mudbutton Torchling from Lorwyn seems useful an expensive 1/1 at Red and two but does 3 pts of damage dying off so doesn't much matter if you pay the kicker or not.
Epochrasite is a cheaper 1/1 that comes back tougher than it left but the time delay might be a killer there
It looks like Adarkar Valkyrie should be useful but I'm thinkin git's probably too expensive to be useful
Hmm okay feeling somewhat responsible for this, let's see if I can find something to help it out
Mudbutton Torchling from Lorwyn seems useful an expensive 1/1 at Red and two but does 3 pts of damage dying off so doesn't much matter if you pay the kicker or not.
Epochrasite is a cheaper 1/1 that comes back tougher than it left but the time delay might be a killer there
It looks like Adarkar Valkyrie should be useful but I'm thinkin git's probably too expensive to be useful
Flash's sudden spike in price had nothing to do with new cards being printed. It had every thing to do with it being unerrated back to its orginal wording.
I played against it a few times and do think it's tournament quality. 2 suggestions though: It doesn't seem to need dual lands that much; I'd get back to basics and then replace Fertile Ground with Utopia Sprawl. Also, since your deck doesn't need much more than four lands out (especially with the Planeswalker), shouldn't Creeping Mold be more useful than the Acid-Moss? When I was playing Andrew, he had to use the Primal Command to disenchant anything.
Just wanted to say thanks so much for writing this article. I always feel like I'm in the dark when it comes to these only-Classic legal sets. The way you broke down each set and ran the numbers was practical and helpful. When I read the article, I was initally surprised that there were so few chase cards in each set. I had noticed the recent drop in a lot of the MED rare prices but couldn't understand why. Now I understand.
I have one question: Do you think Force of Will will drop in price? I've been considering making "the purchase" to complete my playset but I'd be willing to wait if the prices fall. I know we have to consider that it's going out of print early next year and most people are done drafting the set. Now might be the best time. What do you think?
Again, thanks for putting all that information in one place and making it understandable. I'm sure I'll be referring to it again in the future.
The main problem with your article is that you don't bother to look at how much cracked packs of Standard legal sets are worth. Before Lorwyn was released I believe it was around $2. The frequency of different draft queues firing has almost nothing to do with the value of the cards in the pack, and everything to do with the fact that most people want to play the newest format.
I don't agree.. everyone on MTGO pretty much plays all formats.
Let's take the Flash example. It was a junk rare pretty much for 10 years then all of a sudden its what it is because of newer cards that get printed and all of a sudden they are powerhouses.
I think for the Ringleader alone the duel decks are worth it. and in MED there are plenty of cards that could see play eventually. the majority though are there just for fun. and when it comes down to it you got to have fun. while I love the effort on this. I just think you are over analyzing the sets. To me.. Mirage/Visions/Weatherlight brings me to a time where I rode my bike across town with my 2.67 to pick up a pack of Weatherlight-Stronghold.. it brings me to a time where I played fun decks because thats all i had.
Weatherlight was a weak set, but there are a lot of cool cards for not only PDC, but multiplayer, singleton, even prismatic gets some good commons and uncommons..
i guess what i'm trying to say is.. we all know that ripping packs isn't worth it.. but its fun.. and if nobody ripped packs the price of cards would skyrocket... and because of chase cards and the "gamble" its why people still do it.. . I do.. but i also think I spend a lot on cards in general.
Fun deck. Have you tried Greater Gargadon at all? Floating 6 mana, sacrificing your lands to Gargadon, then Bust is too much fun. Of course it's a lot less fun when you run into a counter spell.
Nice job on making a rogue deck to take out the STD metagame. I got a chance to playtest one or two games, and my only thoughts are not enough happening in the early game, I never needed or wanted to cast a flashback call of the herd, and there are too many Primal Commands. I got three in each game I played. Although, three games is hardly enough to be an accurate measure for anything important. I did enjoy playing the deck though, and there are alot more decisions to be made than I originally thought. Fun and exciting at every turn. Bravo! I am looking forward to your next rogue deck.
No worries. I've had the same thing happen to me mutlipe times. Random bolding and font changes... *grumble*
Good article!
haha too true.
Hope it looks better now, sorry about that.
-Alex
I have a long history with Flash. Back when the Sixth edition rules came out, I wrote a long post to the Wizards listserve about Flash under Sixth. To sum up, I objected to blue getting an instant-speed Stone Rain (Flash Avalanche Riders), Terror (Flash Nekretaal), Enchantment Tinker (Flash Rector), etc., etc. I don't know how much my original post had to do with the eratta, but it did ignite a firestorm of comments, and the eratta followed shortly thereafter.
Flash is a method of cheating creatures into play for a much lower mana cost. Other spells that have allowed cheating of mana costs have included Academy Rector, Tinker, Oath of Druids, Animate Dead, Replenish and more. All of them have been banned or restricted in various formats.
Wizards has been increasing the mana cost of cards tat put creatures directly into play. Originally, B plus some life was considered "reasonable." Now these cards are nin mana sorceries (Dragonstorm, Tooth and Nail), and they are still close to broken. A two mana instant is too good.
True, the Flash / Protean Hulk combo kill did not originate years before Hulk was printed, but I had a Flash combo kill (just not a very good one) back before the original eratta. Flash also powered out some broken CIP effects starting with 6th Edition rules. (Prior to sixth edition, the way interactions like this were handled is that the netrep made a ruling. Bethmo had said Flash didn't work the way it now does, so it didn't. With Sixth Edition, that all changed.)
FWIW, the new PDC resource site is pdcmagic.com...easy enough to remember.
I swear it looked good when I submitted it.
-Alex
I just thought that it was satire regarding the V3 chat feature... ;)
Erm someone fix the formatting of this article yo!
GP Columbus didn't need pacts to get Flash banned.
Yeah for those wondering the story of Flash it goes something like this: Printed in Mirage, who cares. Academy Rector comes out, before this Wizards knew that this could mean bad things with flash. Flash's wording changed so that creature doesn't go into play unless you pay full cost. Last spring: WOTC stealth-unerratas Flash. Future Sight prerelease/spoilers show the U and G pacts. GP Columbus happens just before pacts are legal to play. Flash does very well and wins the GP. Flash is banned in Legacy.
Sure I missed some points there but that's the bulk of it.
*Ringleader*! :P But yeah, those goblin/elf cards will start dropping right away due to these being released, not a ton, but definately enough so that it won't be worth it to buy the decks.
First off gentlemen, Utopia Sprawl is in Dissension. Not Standard legal.
Second, Utopia Sprawl is Enchant Forest. There are 6 Forests in the whole deck. So even if it were Standard legal, it would still be a horrible choice.
Now, as for the deck, I tooled around with it in TP for a minute, and I have to say I don't really know why Garruk is in the deck in the first place. Garruk is very aggro, this deck is very control. Even in the situations where he would be good he just seems so win-more that it hurts.
I played 5 matches against 4 aggro, 1 U/W Pickles, went 2-2 vs. aggro, 1-0 vs. control. The control matchup had to be won post sideboard, was totally dominated game one. At no point during any of the games would a resolved Garruk have done anything but maybe soak up a few points of damage that were intended for my facehole. My first change to the deck was to -3 Garruk, +1 Boom/Bust, +1 Molten Disaster, +1 Avalanche Riders.
I played a very similar deck during TSP/PLC TSP Block, and the turn 3 land hit is very important vs. control, often because it is unexpected game 1. After boarding the deck appears to absolutely annihilate control strategies, so stealing game 1 is more important than usual IMO.
I added the extra Boom/Bust because geddon = gg, the extra disaster for the board sweeper that should help a little vs. aggro (I prayed for it during both of the aggro match losses, it would have won me the deciding game both times if I had drawn it), and the extra riders to hit the turn 3 LD a little more often.
I haven't had time to test it with the changes, will do so tomorrow when I get off work, and will post results then. All in all, fun deck to play, definately has game. Kudos.
PS: I dropped the 4th CotH before I started playing due to the fact that I despise 61 card decks with a passion. Feel free to allow this to color your opinion of my results as you see fit.
What set is utopia sprawl in again...........
No, but Academy Rector could be used to get a powerful enchantment like Yawgmoth's Bargain into play so you could win the game very quickly. Since having an extra 10+ cards in your hand should be able to get you something good.
so protean hulk has been around since Mirage? same with the disciple win condition? since mirage?
Hmm okay feeling somewhat responsible for this, let's see if I can find something to help it out
Mudbutton Torchling from Lorwyn seems useful an expensive 1/1 at Red and two but does 3 pts of damage dying off so doesn't much matter if you pay the kicker or not.
Epochrasite is a cheaper 1/1 that comes back tougher than it left but the time delay might be a killer there
It looks like Adarkar Valkyrie should be useful but I'm thinkin git's probably too expensive to be useful
Hmm okay feeling somewhat responsible for this, let's see if I can find something to help it out
Mudbutton Torchling from Lorwyn seems useful an expensive 1/1 at Red and two but does 3 pts of damage dying off so doesn't much matter if you pay the kicker or not.
Epochrasite is a cheaper 1/1 that comes back tougher than it left but the time delay might be a killer there
It looks like Adarkar Valkyrie should be useful but I'm thinkin git's probably too expensive to be useful
It didn't hurt that Pact of Negation and Summoner's Pact were printed at practically the same time though...
Flash's sudden spike in price had nothing to do with new cards being printed. It had every thing to do with it being unerrated back to its orginal wording.
I played against it a few times and do think it's tournament quality. 2 suggestions though: It doesn't seem to need dual lands that much; I'd get back to basics and then replace Fertile Ground with Utopia Sprawl. Also, since your deck doesn't need much more than four lands out (especially with the Planeswalker), shouldn't Creeping Mold be more useful than the Acid-Moss? When I was playing Andrew, he had to use the Primal Command to disenchant anything.
I doubt Force of Will is ever going to fall much, and it should go up once MED leaves the stores.
I was just looking at the value of Classic packs. I have done the same thing with Lorwyn and TSP in the past.
Just wanted to say thanks so much for writing this article. I always feel like I'm in the dark when it comes to these only-Classic legal sets. The way you broke down each set and ran the numbers was practical and helpful. When I read the article, I was initally surprised that there were so few chase cards in each set. I had noticed the recent drop in a lot of the MED rare prices but couldn't understand why. Now I understand.
I have one question: Do you think Force of Will will drop in price? I've been considering making "the purchase" to complete my playset but I'd be willing to wait if the prices fall. I know we have to consider that it's going out of print early next year and most people are done drafting the set. Now might be the best time. What do you think?
Again, thanks for putting all that information in one place and making it understandable. I'm sure I'll be referring to it again in the future.
The main problem with your article is that you don't bother to look at how much cracked packs of Standard legal sets are worth. Before Lorwyn was released I believe it was around $2. The frequency of different draft queues firing has almost nothing to do with the value of the cards in the pack, and everything to do with the fact that most people want to play the newest format.
I don't agree.. everyone on MTGO pretty much plays all formats.
Let's take the Flash example. It was a junk rare pretty much for 10 years then all of a sudden its what it is because of newer cards that get printed and all of a sudden they are powerhouses.
I think for the Ringleader alone the duel decks are worth it. and in MED there are plenty of cards that could see play eventually. the majority though are there just for fun. and when it comes down to it you got to have fun. while I love the effort on this. I just think you are over analyzing the sets. To me.. Mirage/Visions/Weatherlight brings me to a time where I rode my bike across town with my 2.67 to pick up a pack of Weatherlight-Stronghold.. it brings me to a time where I played fun decks because thats all i had.
Weatherlight was a weak set, but there are a lot of cool cards for not only PDC, but multiplayer, singleton, even prismatic gets some good commons and uncommons..
i guess what i'm trying to say is.. we all know that ripping packs isn't worth it.. but its fun.. and if nobody ripped packs the price of cards would skyrocket... and because of chase cards and the "gamble" its why people still do it.. . I do.. but i also think I spend a lot on cards in general.
Fun deck. Have you tried Greater Gargadon at all? Floating 6 mana, sacrificing your lands to Gargadon, then Bust is too much fun. Of course it's a lot less fun when you run into a counter spell.
Nice job on making a rogue deck to take out the STD metagame. I got a chance to playtest one or two games, and my only thoughts are not enough happening in the early game, I never needed or wanted to cast a flashback call of the herd, and there are too many Primal Commands. I got three in each game I played. Although, three games is hardly enough to be an accurate measure for anything important. I did enjoy playing the deck though, and there are alot more decisions to be made than I originally thought. Fun and exciting at every turn. Bravo! I am looking forward to your next rogue deck.