Hogan and I talked about this very thing (MTGArena alongside MTGO) and basically came to the same conclusions though we are still curious what the community at large thinks of this. Thanks for your (as usual) well articulated opinion.
Ah such a fine line between responding to trolls and just trying to converse. lol. I try and ignore the comments (sometimes successfully) that are intended to get my goat. My goat is MINE. I will only sac it when I want to.
There are a lot of reasons for that:
1. WotC wants there to be as few ways to split the playerbase as possible, and it's a lot harder for two digital platforms to be different than digital and paper. We've had that with Duels for a while, but that wasn't targeted towards established players at all (other than maybe the story modes, which wasn't a recurring purchase), and Arena is supposed to attract core players (at least ones that care about Standard/current Limited).
2. If the card bases are equal, Arena is much better than MTGO for WotC in most aspects. The presentation is much better, making it more appealing for viewers. Making it F2P makes it much easier to hook players. Removing redemption and trading means WotC doesn't have to worry about most online gambling regulations. The main drawback for WotC is that the margins presumably aren't as good (both because of pure F2P-ers and presumably cheaper cards), but that might not be true if MTGO is much more difficult to maintain.
Apparently in the new LR Ryan Spain says Arena won't launch for two-plus years. Granted that's probably a timeline for 1.0, and there's a lot of "launch" before that--Hearthstone spent a long time in closed beta (no info out, like apparently the beta we're signing up for now is), invite-only beta (where everyone streams and such, and it can dominate Twitch), and open beta (where anyone can download the client), along with gradually opening up the platforms (you're kidding yourself if 1.0 doesn't include PC, Mac, iOS, Android, and at least one console). When you combine that with the timeline for older sets, it might be ~10 years before MTGO dies. (or Arena might not ever launch :p )
MTGO will have an official ending at the same time they stop adding new sets. At which point they will merge you account with the successor of MTGO. It will be similar to the transition from MTGO v3 to v4.
WotC will simply gradually stop supporting mtgo, until in the end when it is a ghost town with so many flaws/bugs that no one will want to touch it any more. MtgO will never have any "official ending".
Drawing can happen online too, e.g., all players end with a negative life total at the same time. Or is that not what you meant by drawing?
Loops not happening online is a violation of the CR. Or does the CR state that there are different rules online versus paper? Hence, there is a single set of rules which are sometimes enforced wrongly both online and in paper.
I disagree, there are for sure two different sets of rules, which is why drawing can happen in paper, and loops can happen in paper, but they can't happen online.
focusing only on Standard and current limited formats. - doesnt matter, probably only what they start out with.
MTGO will stay around, since it includes non-Standard formats, - yes, but not because it includes non-standard formats.
and will still be required for top-level play, at least in the short term. - yes, and only in the short term.
Furthermore, since Arena isn't directly connected with Paper (and most-likely will have a flow from Paper to Arena via promo codes), trading doesn't exist, - trading or not trading, it will be just as connected to paper as mtgo is, redemption/electronic ptq's is insignificant.
and it's competing with other digital games, - yes.
cards will have to be cheaper. - no, they do not. We have no clue how and what Arena will charge, yet.
Obviously the super-long term goal will be to have Arena replace MTGO, - yes.
but that requires Arena to be successful (not a given, especially since WotC will probably be walking the tightrope of trying not to kill Paper with it), - you do not know what you are talking about here.
it'll take years in the best case (even ignoring the actual cost of programming old cards/sets, - it will probably take less than a year.
WotC won't flood the market with product), - they wont give freebies no.
and WotC will let you cash out or (more likely) merge with Arena when the time comes. - nothing will be merged I can promise you, it will be pay it all over once again.
---
Paper rules problems have consequences for digital mtg programming, whether it be mtgo or arena.
In paper all the comprehensive rules problems are solved with rulings(or "solved") or less formal arrangements (like phone calls between judges/certain wotc folks). In digital that is an enormous task, and thus one of the reasons mtgo has been so disastrously bad (and have had its customer base/traffic cut 70 percent since 2010). Arena starts with only standard and its limited part, that is much easier to programme.
No need to discuss cashing out if you dont believe it is an option. In the end WotC will just move any MTGO collection to Arena and we will all be happy - including you. Electronic cards for Electronic cards.
2) What is it you think redemption is/does ? Get the cards you have online in real life mail ? Nope(except for some few of them).
3) Even so, that I am wrong about 2); Do you think people want the cards in paper ? Maybe they already have them, and that they bought electronics because it is electronics they want, and not a "2nd set of paper cards" because that is superfluous.
Hogan and I talked about this very thing (MTGArena alongside MTGO) and basically came to the same conclusions though we are still curious what the community at large thinks of this. Thanks for your (as usual) well articulated opinion.
Ah, it should! I blame typing it down by hand rather than copy-pasting from Gatherer (due to the too many reprints in between).
Shouldn't the Ur-Dragon also be under Avatar?
Nice writeup! I love cubes :D
My favorite archetype is 4 or 5c with tons of nonbasics. Different fun and powerful every time.
I know nothing about football!
Hearts & Hibs in the same thread!
I thought this would "kick off" more than it has :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_derby
Join us
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/other-formats/other-mtgo-for...
Ah such a fine line between responding to trolls and just trying to converse. lol. I try and ignore the comments (sometimes successfully) that are intended to get my goat. My goat is MINE. I will only sac it when I want to.
I know--that's why I'm trying to avoid replying to the known trolls :)
(P.S: My article that went up today doesn't appear to have normal (non-Facebook) comments on it for some reason)
I'm trying to decide if Hibs and Hearts are the same people.
There are a lot of reasons for that:
1. WotC wants there to be as few ways to split the playerbase as possible, and it's a lot harder for two digital platforms to be different than digital and paper. We've had that with Duels for a while, but that wasn't targeted towards established players at all (other than maybe the story modes, which wasn't a recurring purchase), and Arena is supposed to attract core players (at least ones that care about Standard/current Limited).
2. If the card bases are equal, Arena is much better than MTGO for WotC in most aspects. The presentation is much better, making it more appealing for viewers. Making it F2P makes it much easier to hook players. Removing redemption and trading means WotC doesn't have to worry about most online gambling regulations. The main drawback for WotC is that the margins presumably aren't as good (both because of pure F2P-ers and presumably cheaper cards), but that might not be true if MTGO is much more difficult to maintain.
It is still not given that a functional Arena will kill MTGO?
Paper and MTGO coexist, why cant they coexist with another digital platform with a different play concept?
Apparently in the new LR Ryan Spain says Arena won't launch for two-plus years. Granted that's probably a timeline for 1.0, and there's a lot of "launch" before that--Hearthstone spent a long time in closed beta (no info out, like apparently the beta we're signing up for now is), invite-only beta (where everyone streams and such, and it can dominate Twitch), and open beta (where anyone can download the client), along with gradually opening up the platforms (you're kidding yourself if 1.0 doesn't include PC, Mac, iOS, Android, and at least one console). When you combine that with the timeline for older sets, it might be ~10 years before MTGO dies. (or Arena might not ever launch :p )
I am somewhat surprised that facts all of a sudden became a concern for you?
You do realize that WotC hasnt said that ***insert here***, right?
***MtgO will be phased out and become replaced with [Arena]***
***Playsets of staples...will have to be bought once again.***
***This will happen yet again in 10-12 years***
***yet again 7-8 years after***
***shorter cycles as time pass***
***nothing will be merged I can promise you.***
***WotC will simply gradually stop supporting mtgo***
***MtgO will never have any "official ending"***
They haven't said ANYTHING about ending MTGO, lol.
You do realize that WotC hasnt said that there is going to be any merging or official ending, right ?
MTGO will have an official ending at the same time they stop adding new sets. At which point they will merge you account with the successor of MTGO. It will be similar to the transition from MTGO v3 to v4.
WotC will simply gradually stop supporting mtgo, until in the end when it is a ghost town with so many flaws/bugs that no one will want to touch it any more. MtgO will never have any "official ending".
I should have said intentional drawing.
Drawing can happen online too, e.g., all players end with a negative life total at the same time. Or is that not what you meant by drawing?
Loops not happening online is a violation of the CR. Or does the CR state that there are different rules online versus paper? Hence, there is a single set of rules which are sometimes enforced wrongly both online and in paper.
I disagree, there are for sure two different sets of rules, which is why drawing can happen in paper, and loops can happen in paper, but they can't happen online.
You are wrong. Before they close down MTGO they will merge your collection with Arena and trading will be a thing.
I will be happy to repeat it as many times as you repeat your statement. I am sure that you can see they are both based on the same amount of proof.
They is no such thing as paper rules. There is only one set of rules.
You're both wrong- No.
Arena is something completely separate, - yes.
focusing only on Standard and current limited formats. - doesnt matter, probably only what they start out with.
MTGO will stay around, since it includes non-Standard formats, - yes, but not because it includes non-standard formats.
and will still be required for top-level play, at least in the short term. - yes, and only in the short term.
Furthermore, since Arena isn't directly connected with Paper (and most-likely will have a flow from Paper to Arena via promo codes), trading doesn't exist, - trading or not trading, it will be just as connected to paper as mtgo is, redemption/electronic ptq's is insignificant.
and it's competing with other digital games, - yes.
cards will have to be cheaper. - no, they do not. We have no clue how and what Arena will charge, yet.
Obviously the super-long term goal will be to have Arena replace MTGO, - yes.
but that requires Arena to be successful (not a given, especially since WotC will probably be walking the tightrope of trying not to kill Paper with it), - you do not know what you are talking about here.
it'll take years in the best case (even ignoring the actual cost of programming old cards/sets, - it will probably take less than a year.
WotC won't flood the market with product), - they wont give freebies no.
and WotC will let you cash out or (more likely) merge with Arena when the time comes. - nothing will be merged I can promise you, it will be pay it all over once again.
---
Paper rules problems have consequences for digital mtg programming, whether it be mtgo or arena.
In paper all the comprehensive rules problems are solved with rulings(or "solved") or less formal arrangements (like phone calls between judges/certain wotc folks). In digital that is an enormous task, and thus one of the reasons mtgo has been so disastrously bad (and have had its customer base/traffic cut 70 percent since 2010). Arena starts with only standard and its limited part, that is much easier to programme.
No need to discuss cashing out if you dont believe it is an option. In the end WotC will just move any MTGO collection to Arena and we will all be happy - including you. Electronic cards for Electronic cards.
1) Cash is money.
2) What is it you think redemption is/does ? Get the cards you have online in real life mail ? Nope(except for some few of them).
3) Even so, that I am wrong about 2); Do you think people want the cards in paper ? Maybe they already have them, and that they bought electronics because it is electronics they want, and not a "2nd set of paper cards" because that is superfluous.