I love these decks and have tried to use bombardment before, only issue is that whenever I do my opponent always has Shrivel or Electrickery, usually more than one!
Just out of curiosity, would you lock the whole combo, or just some pieces? That is, in this case, would all the pieces get locked, or could I still use a cleric deck with the Kor? Or just Dread Return in a non combo deck? Or just lockout the enablers, and I could still use Maniac, Azami, etc?
Also, what is considered a combo? Comparing with Natural Order, almost every green deck puts 4 NO, Hornet Queen and Dragonlord Atarka. I know I'm biased and I know this is a bad comparison because one is a game winning combo and the other is just a "creature kit", but almost every green deck gets this package. Would that be locked too if it wins too much?
One question though. In your opinion, is the deck too good, or is the combo too good?
I'm asking this because I also played the combo in a different shell, and have a few other in the making (I love the combo, so I brew a lot with it). A few are good, some are ok, a lot are bad. I even have control versions with just 1 kor and 1 cephalid. Should they all be banned? Just because of one tribe? When that tribe gets a 5 event lockout if it wins?
I'm not sure lumping the current incarnation of the deck with previous years makes that much sense. The current build has played 21 matches and won all but three of them.
At least the lock out adds a layer of competition to the tourney that does not exist otherwise. "Do I add Painter Stone to this deck on the off chance that I won't be able to use it again for a while? Hrmmm." For example.
I think you're wrong, and I think it's what WotC/DCI is doing as well. They never ban something because it can sometimes feel overpowered. They only do that if it's a constant presence in the meta, to the point of twisting it. Forcing the players to refrain from using the same power deck several times in a row (something DCI can't do) is effective in keeping it at bay from the point of view of the overall format's game experience.
Case in point, if TLR wasn't able to play that deck so many times in a row, it's likely most players wouldn't even take notice.
As for Breakfast not being worth it, I agree, I think the not particularly overwhelming results across 5 years prove it. But locking it when it goes undefeated is harmless enough. And it's something that could be applied to a few other things as well.
I'm not really convinced it's a good idea. It seems like it just hides the problem rather than actually solving it; if a deck is too good for the format then something needs to be banned to de-power it and if it's not too good then a lockout is unnecessary. Making it so you face a deck slightly less often is not going to make it any more fun to play against if it's overpowered and having it appear less often will make it take longer for us to accrue the data to determine if it actually is ban-worthy.
Adding a top combos lockout beside the top players lockout sounds like a reasonable option. The TLR build is very solid, especially with the swan songs to protect the combo. Played seven times this year, four wins, three X-1. Can't argue with results like those.
yeah I've not seen any Palinchron in the animar lists for 1v1. I think Ancestral Statue fills the role of that guy, you're not really looking to gain a mana advantage (unless you need to fire off a Zenith) so pumping animar for free and just naturally casting an eldrazi titan seems to work.
Love it, Animar is one of those commanders I've been wanting to try out.
I'm guessing that Wotc might be willing to finally ban Breya, however I think that would just force the Breya players into Tymna Kraum decks. Beyond that, I'm thinking demonic and vampirism tutors might be on the chopping block. All the other tutors either cost 3 or more, or limit what you can get.
Looks like a funnish serious deck. Hard to take it all in really. No creatures like Palinchron for the "broken" mechanic? That's usually how mp Animar wins early.
Nice. One suggestion: can you list the cards added/removed as well so we don't have to compare deck lists to figure it out (ala sideboard notes) Thanks
Yeah, $70/80 seems like way too much for a Constructed GP where the vast majority of players will get nothing. I'm surprised the grinders haven't taken a satellite approach like poker (where you get the entry fee if you win).
I went, but I took a different approach by going Sunday only for the PTQ--you only pay $50, you get 6 packs, and the minimum prize at 3-2 is 120 tickets (12 packs). Honestly, I wish they'd run a Limited GP here (though the PT means we probably don't get one next year).
Well I'm looking forward to whatever you put together.
I made some changes to the deck since writing the article, mostly going for alternatives ways to get Eldrazi into play, such as Elvish Piper, and I went 5-0 with it yesterday.
I agree and I think a lot of people who are commander fans agree as well. It is a shame they won't see their way to putting these on mtgo. Not sure what our options are to combat this sort of backhandedness except just sell out of the client which seems like cutting off our nose to spite their face. And they won't really notice or care at all. Same as protesting about it. Sucks to be powerless.
Another update: the Flashback Schedule has updated and the mystery Flashback Draft is Triple-Ravnica. I've already done a Year of Modern Flashbacks on that block, so now I need to figure out if I can do a sequel article or have to be content with a remaster.
Another update, though this is more of a mistake: Apparently the full C17 decks aren't being released on MTGO for some reason. I could have sworn they were talking about that when C17 was first announced (though I think it was just on Twitter randomly, so I don't have a link), but now the official sites are all saying they'll show up in the Treasure Chests in November (the November part isn't new). I understand the deck model doesn't work on MTGO, but I'm sick of MTGO being a second-class citizen, both in terms of release dates of supplemental products and not getting all black-border cards. The second point doesn't even make much sense here, since there aren't many complicated Manifold Insights or Cruel Entertainment-type cards (the hardest are probably Alms Collector and Stalking Leonin, and both of those are possible Constructed cards). Instead, the MP-focused cards are probably going, like the Curses and Vindictive Lich (though I think both the Lich and Territorial Hellkite are close, even in 1v1).
It was hidden in table code, and when I was able to find that it was super easy. Paul helped out a ton.
I love these decks and have tried to use bombardment before, only issue is that whenever I do my opponent always has Shrivel or Electrickery, usually more than one!
I spent hours trying to get rid of that, but I couldn't. Thanks to both of you.
Just out of curiosity, would you lock the whole combo, or just some pieces? That is, in this case, would all the pieces get locked, or could I still use a cleric deck with the Kor? Or just Dread Return in a non combo deck? Or just lockout the enablers, and I could still use Maniac, Azami, etc?
Also, what is considered a combo? Comparing with Natural Order, almost every green deck puts 4 NO, Hornet Queen and Dragonlord Atarka. I know I'm biased and I know this is a bad comparison because one is a game winning combo and the other is just a "creature kit", but almost every green deck gets this package. Would that be locked too if it wins too much?
One question though. In your opinion, is the deck too good, or is the combo too good?
I'm asking this because I also played the combo in a different shell, and have a few other in the making (I love the combo, so I brew a lot with it). A few are good, some are ok, a lot are bad. I even have control versions with just 1 kor and 1 cephalid. Should they all be banned? Just because of one tribe? When that tribe gets a 5 event lockout if it wins?
I'm not sure lumping the current incarnation of the deck with previous years makes that much sense. The current build has played 21 matches and won all but three of them.
At least the lock out adds a layer of competition to the tourney that does not exist otherwise. "Do I add Painter Stone to this deck on the off chance that I won't be able to use it again for a while? Hrmmm." For example.
I think you're wrong, and I think it's what WotC/DCI is doing as well. They never ban something because it can sometimes feel overpowered. They only do that if it's a constant presence in the meta, to the point of twisting it. Forcing the players to refrain from using the same power deck several times in a row (something DCI can't do) is effective in keeping it at bay from the point of view of the overall format's game experience.
Case in point, if TLR wasn't able to play that deck so many times in a row, it's likely most players wouldn't even take notice.
As for Breakfast not being worth it, I agree, I think the not particularly overwhelming results across 5 years prove it. But locking it when it goes undefeated is harmless enough. And it's something that could be applied to a few other things as well.
I'm not really convinced it's a good idea. It seems like it just hides the problem rather than actually solving it; if a deck is too good for the format then something needs to be banned to de-power it and if it's not too good then a lockout is unnecessary. Making it so you face a deck slightly less often is not going to make it any more fun to play against if it's overpowered and having it appear less often will make it take longer for us to accrue the data to determine if it actually is ban-worthy.
Fixed a hidden section that was showing a wall of html, thanks to Paul for the assist!
Why take Port off the list? Why not just replace with PRM R.P.?
Adding a top combos lockout beside the top players lockout sounds like a reasonable option. The TLR build is very solid, especially with the swan songs to protect the combo. Played seven times this year, four wins, three X-1. Can't argue with results like those.
Partner was a broken mechanic, but I am okay if it pushes Breya players there for some reason.
I think the tutors and fast mana have to go. In fact I sold my Mox Diamond in anticipation of it getting the axe.
yeah I've not seen any Palinchron in the animar lists for 1v1. I think Ancestral Statue fills the role of that guy, you're not really looking to gain a mana advantage (unless you need to fire off a Zenith) so pumping animar for free and just naturally casting an eldrazi titan seems to work.
Love it, Animar is one of those commanders I've been wanting to try out.
I'm guessing that Wotc might be willing to finally ban Breya, however I think that would just force the Breya players into Tymna Kraum decks. Beyond that, I'm thinking demonic and vampirism tutors might be on the chopping block. All the other tutors either cost 3 or more, or limit what you can get.
Looks like a funnish serious deck. Hard to take it all in really. No creatures like Palinchron for the "broken" mechanic? That's usually how mp Animar wins early.
Nice. One suggestion: can you list the cards added/removed as well so we don't have to compare deck lists to figure it out (ala sideboard notes) Thanks
I have a foil set I'm looking to offload.
It makes me so angry to see Exploration at 80 tickets. That bothers me so dang much.
Yeah, $70/80 seems like way too much for a Constructed GP where the vast majority of players will get nothing. I'm surprised the grinders haven't taken a satellite approach like poker (where you get the entry fee if you win).
I went, but I took a different approach by going Sunday only for the PTQ--you only pay $50, you get 6 packs, and the minimum prize at 3-2 is 120 tickets (12 packs). Honestly, I wish they'd run a Limited GP here (though the PT means we probably don't get one next year).
Nicely done!
I never could figure out the setting for videos, so I think I am just going to continue my writing break until the next banned list happens.
Well I'm looking forward to whatever you put together.
I made some changes to the deck since writing the article, mostly going for alternatives ways to get Eldrazi into play, such as Elvish Piper, and I went 5-0 with it yesterday.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/commander-co...
Concur. This is a shame and an annoyance: You'd have hoped they would have learned their lesson with Palace Jailer.
I agree and I think a lot of people who are commander fans agree as well. It is a shame they won't see their way to putting these on mtgo. Not sure what our options are to combat this sort of backhandedness except just sell out of the client which seems like cutting off our nose to spite their face. And they won't really notice or care at all. Same as protesting about it. Sucks to be powerless.
Another update: the Flashback Schedule has updated and the mystery Flashback Draft is Triple-Ravnica. I've already done a Year of Modern Flashbacks on that block, so now I need to figure out if I can do a sequel article or have to be content with a remaster.
Another update, though this is more of a mistake: Apparently the full C17 decks aren't being released on MTGO for some reason. I could have sworn they were talking about that when C17 was first announced (though I think it was just on Twitter randomly, so I don't have a link), but now the official sites are all saying they'll show up in the Treasure Chests in November (the November part isn't new). I understand the deck model doesn't work on MTGO, but I'm sick of MTGO being a second-class citizen, both in terms of release dates of supplemental products and not getting all black-border cards. The second point doesn't even make much sense here, since there aren't many complicated Manifold Insights or Cruel Entertainment-type cards (the hardest are probably Alms Collector and Stalking Leonin, and both of those are possible Constructed cards). Instead, the MP-focused cards are probably going, like the Curses and Vindictive Lich (though I think both the Lich and Territorial Hellkite are close, even in 1v1).