Quoting the article: "Of course that specific card will go into the overall Pure ban list and be unusable to every other tribe as well; it'll just be a card whose absence affects that tribe the most."
I'm okay charging Fireblast to Humans. We can hit more Human-crucial cards from other tribes' quotas, like Soldier and Wizard. So we should have enough slots to get the intended result.
Human (46) - Fireblast, Lightning Bolt, Brainstorm, Snapcaster Mage, Mother of Runes, Swords to Plowshares, Champion of the Parish, Delver of Secrets, Dark Confidant
Elf (29) - Elvish Archdruid, Wirewood Symbiote, Inkmoth Nexus, Chord of Calling, Collected Company (or Priest of Titania)
Goblin (23) - Aether Vial, Goblin Matron, Goblin Warchief, Goblin Chieftain (to be replaced by Lackey, if that returns to Regular)
Vampire (11) - Hymn to Tourach, Gatekeeper of Malakir
Shaman (10) - Dark Depths, Punishing Fire
Knight (9) - Knight Exemplar
Cat (8) - Path to Exile
Kor (8) - Batterskull (I guess, Stoneforge Mystic is possible, but it's interesting once the best Swords are gone)
Wall (8) - Green Sun's Zenith
Wizard (8) - Counterspell
Merfolk (7) - True-Name Nemesis
Eldrazi (6) - Eye of Ugin
Plant (6) - Natural Order (apply to Underdog!)
Ally (5) - Kabira Evangel
Archon (5) - Entomb (apply to Underdog!)
Berserker (5) - Searing Blaze (apply to Underdog!)
Kithkin (5) - Spectral Procession
Scout (5) - Scapeshift (already banned)
Soltari (5) - Honor of the Pure (apply to Underdog!)
Zombie (5) - Gray Merchant of Asphodel
General: Swords of X/Y
Leftovers from current list: Greater Gargadon, Griselbrand (set free?), Ball Lightning (set free?), Rage Forger (set free?)
Enlightened Tutor is probably worth inclusion somewhere too.
So, if we get rid of Fireblast, charging it to Humans (Goblin decks aren't even that interested in the card), can other decks like Warriors play it, or is it as currently exists, that the card is unavailable for every tribe?
I find some of your points...odd. I'm unsure how Wizards enabled people who wanted standard bannings--as you point out, standard bannings are rare, 7 in Magic's 22+ year history (and a number of those were bans that had to be expanded because busted decks weren't stopped). It's been 5 and a half years since a standard ban. A lot of people seem to ignore the underlying reason for this ban, the Jace ban, and the affinity ban. Tournament attendance fell. Each time there were answers, but the formats became unfun, enough that attendance starting dropping. That's what forces Wizards' hand. Sam Stoddard even confirmed it when he noted that continuous turn 4-6 Emrakul's was not fun, it needed to be a rarer event.
I don't play hearthstone, so I could be mistaken, but isn't hearthstone free to play at some point? That's a big difference that can account for a lot of the differences in community and company.
> That's unfortunate. I thought everything could be simulated via freeform?
Only deck building is affected by Freeform. Emperor and Two-Headed-Giant are game modes with different conditions than the regular game, like shared life totals and a certain group players need to be defeated for another group of players to win the game. An the word "opponent" behaves different. In FFA all other players are automatically opponents from the rules perspective. In 2HG your other head was not affected by your effects which targeted "your opponents".
WotC dropped those modes quite some time ago (> a year at least). And while the group of multiplayer regulars is and was relatively small, at least 2HG has been very popular and is dearly missed. I don't like the political aspect of free-for-all games. In 2HG you have at least a clear goal and "correct" play gets rewarded.
A workaround is using the FFA mode (the only multiplayer mode left) and just pretend that teams work. Players just should keep in mind that effects that affect "your opponents" also hurt their teammate. The game will not recognize a team win, this has to be handled by the players manually. As long as everyone is aware of this and the rules to work around the client's limitations are clear, this should be possible!
> And hey, pfirpfel! Hope to see you back in TribAp this year.
I will try and catch some events. Saturday is often busy. But I still check your articles and the results from time to time :)
Is your Pure tribal-specific ban list in addition to the original 9 cards for the format?
You mean the T9?
You know what, it would be swell if the T9 could be counted as bans for one tribe or another. This way there's just one list to look at. Aether Vial is easy, we can give that to Merfolk. The white removals are trickier, but we can distribute them among the bigger white tribes.
The Swords of X and Y are the trickiest, though. But maybe we could even unban them if the rest of the bans are solid enough.
Yeah, I don't see a tier-1 or even tier-2 competitive deck ever coming from that pool, so Spikes will just discard the tribe altogether.
It's a nice idea for a special prize in Pure, though. I think I'll create it: win 1 tix if you enter a list where your creatures are all Human with no secondary types.
Hey, thanks for accepting my cry for help!
First of all, though, I think you misunderstood: the bans should be done the same way I was doing it so far, that is by banning anything relevant to a tribe, not just creatures. So Fireblast is a go, goodbye, good riddance for sure, charged to either Goblin or Human (we should feel free to allocate the bans to attain the best balance; clearly noncreature cards will directly affect multiple tribes, but we'll count them as the ban quota of just one).
On the other hand, for creatures with two tribes (or more, but that's rare), I was planning to let them count as the ban for both, provided they were actually played in winning archetypes of both. I think that has to be the key: not just one generically strong creature that bears the type of the tribe we're hitting, but one of the creatures that show up frequently in that tribe's decks and is often the MVP.
For instance, Dark Confidant is a good ban for Wizard, but not a particularly relevant Human ban, because Human decks rarely show up in black in TribAp. I would put down Confidant as one of the bans for Wizard, but in this case not counting it as one of the bans for Human.
Then again, the idea of just go and ban Human from Pure is not a bad one. Although, I don't know, it feels like saying the subformat doesn't really work, because it should be the subformat where all the tribes play without external help, and then we say that Human can't. I'd prefer to find a balance, if we can manage to.
Monastery Swiftspear and Young Pyromancer should be in the 9 for Human, because they're the backbone of the Red Humans Win deck that's the new Goblin. You don't stop that deck cold, you just redirect all Human players to it. I don't think Pyromancer is a MVP in Shaman (we should research that), but Monk decks are usually Bant affairs, so they don't care much about Swiftspear, and I don't think you can build a tier-1 monored Monk deck.
I think we should start writing basic lists like you did, then go to Gatherling and see how frequently those cards actually show up in winning decks (of all formats, not just Pure). For instance, I don't have the perception Noble Hierarch is really important for our Human decks (possibly also an effect of the fact that's very non-budget-friendly). And if you take away all the obvious reasons to go Bant, like Delver, then Noble Hierarch just becomes a mana fixing tool that helps build more interesting decks. And once they reprint it, it might be more accessible.
I won't be able to work on this before next Friday, though.
Wow, thanks for that, glad you are enjoying the articles. There are plenty more to come, and I appreciate the feedback you have given on this and the other Vintage cube article!
Here's my thoughts:
p1p3: Might have gone memory jar over garruk, but that's a hedging choice rather than a commiting choice that you made here, I think you're still right but I'm biased cause I read the article.
P1P8: I'd have considered Duplicant more, since you'd be unlikely to have removal and polukranos' effect is super delayed, plus this doesn't make you commit as hard to green.
P2P1: Through the breach had some game here, but i'd still go catacombs.
P2P3: Toxic deluge could go with ur fetch and give you some ability to comeback from a bad hand.
P2P9: Throught the breach should be more tempting now that you have craterhoof, as you really only need him for a turn anyway.
P3P1: 15th pick harmonize and 9th pick gaea's cradle prolly meant you're the only green drafter and you could get elvish mystic to wheel. I'd have taken Karn.
All in all, I think you were very solid and well thought in your picks. Thanks a bundle for posting this as they're my absolute favorite articles.
P1P1: It was down to grave titan and myr battle, balance is the most upside but requires more pieces and I'd rather pick it up a bit later when i have some. If it was legacy cube id have picked grave titan, but myr was the choice.
P1P2: Grim monolith, with entomb being picked if you went grave titan.
P1P3: Workshop was the pick, it's so much more powerful and you already have the battlesphere. I never would think workshop would wheel here.
P1P4: I think high tide was the right pick.
P1P5: Kuldotha plus battlesphere is super good.
P1P6: Disenchant over nothing.
P1P7: I'd have taken the land(colonnade), while your early had little interaction here, porcelain legionnaire isn't super effective on the forgemaster plan.
P1P8: Definitely the signet.
P1P9: Welder was a greedy pick over the temple, but you had no reason to want black at this point, so I'd have taken welder as well.
P1P10: Godless shrine over enlightened tutor, I don't like enlightened tutor due to card disadvantage here and without any counters at this point you really telecast forgemaster it to players that have one. Artifacts can goesper and shrine is better than temples.
P1P11: Careful Study over nekrataal, even if we play black I wouldn't play over our other picks and we have high tide by now so we want to play as many islands as we can.
P1P12: Same. (Hangarback Walker)
P1P13: Nykthos had some upside here over day of judgement, but only if you knew the rest of the draft, so I'd have picked judgement as well. We don't know yet if we can truly commit to high tide and our blue devotion as of now is 0.
P1P14-15: Nothing meaningful.
P2P1: I go signet as well.
P2P2: Tougher than you made it seem, we have 2 signets, grim monolith, and you would also have legionnaire. I think academy's upside isn't super great for you yet and counterspell would have helped you more I think. Also academy has a better chance to wheel here if no1 else is on the artifact plan, since we took workshop earlier over wurmcoil. I'll assume we keep academy here as it would really warp later picks, but i would have taken counterspell and hope for academy wheel.
P2P3: Show and Tell would wheel less likely than blightsteel and I'd have taken that instead, we already have good show/tell targets and gives us more nut hands and a backup in case we can't forgemaster.
P2P4: If we had any wheels by now LED would be tempting, but tbh we'd have taken shelldock even then, since LED wheels somewhat often. I'd have taken seal here since I don't think you be able to activate shelldock very well. I mean 7 cards +5+2 is 26 cards on turn 5/6 and that's playing the careful study I picked over you. Also, we want a regular island over shelldock for high tide, and seal doesn't tell you opponent you're getting forgemaster/show and tell.
P2P5: We already have two many high cost cards for sphinx, and I don't personally like sphinx too much. Baleful strix was the pick, easier to cast and gives us better early and enable forgemaster and academy better.
P2P6: Probe is far better than you gave credit as you can play around counters better, since countering your forgemaster(or our show/tell) really hoses this deck. I'd have picked either probe or Tamiyo. Damnation is greedy option, we might decide to drop white, with just disenchant/judgement as playables and orzhov signet and collonnade as fixing we might want two colors over three. Tamiyo if went counterspell, probe since we went academy.
P2P7: Shackles is the pick, shardless agent shouldn't be on the radar. Now with hight tide shackles and academy, we want to be as heavy blue as possible.
P2P8: I honestly want to pick Fire/Ice with careful study+welder and now wanting heavy blue we might want to run blue with a small red splash. If we had one or two more discard effects for welder I'd recommend it. Otherwise I agree with the trinket mage and hope really hard for it; you already have day of judgement which is just a little worse than verdict.
P2P9: Karakas wouldn't have been horrible for you, and it's even better if you have the show and tell. I'd go karakas, scroll rack needed shelldock to be activatable.
P2P10: I agree with Tidehollow, but I'm unhappy, your logic here applies to why we wanted baleful strix. Academy if it wheeled though.
P2P11: Blightsteel if it wheeled, otherwise, et Mishra's Factory, it's slightly more useful than the sun titan for this deck.
P2P12: I'd take LED, maybe pack 3 could have a wheel, plus you have trinket mage.
13-15: Nothing of importance.
P3P1: I agree with Tezzeret, the compulsive research for the heavyblue/red is there but it'd have to wheel to want it for that gameplan.
P3P2: I'd go force of will, your ramp is a plenty and the extra counter is more helpful, especially if you didn't have counterspell from pack 2.
P3P3: I'd have gone phantasmal image over sphinx rev, it's arguably the best clone, works great with show and tell if it backfires, and many of your good ramp is a one-shot type effec and you dont want to tap grim or play high tide for a big sphinx. Plus this lets you be more blue.
P3P4: I'd have taken signet, the third signet in this deck makes a big difference.
P3P5: I think you should have taken thoughtseize, namely because you had no counters and this deck really wants to ensure it lands its big cards. Dismember is better if we already had the counters though, but since we had counters I'd take the gearhulk since it has better targets with my picks.
P3P6: Nev disk lets us have a board wipe and stay hard blue, with no fetches I'd take it over scrubland here.
P3P7: Brain maggot over Elspeth, I probably wouldn't main either but elspeth doesnt match our game plan and we might side in brain maggot.
P3P8: Definitely Urborg
P3P9-15 All the same.
So I'd have something like:
Myr Battlesphere
Grim monolith
Mishra's workshop
High Tide
Kuldotha Forgemaster
GRuul signet
Simic Signet
Orzhov signet
Careful Study
Gitaxian probe
Baleful Strix
Vedalken Shackles
Force of Will
Tezzeret Agent of Bolas
Imperial Seal
Phantasmal Image
Torrential Gearhulk
Nevinyral's Disk
Imperial Seal
Hangarback Walker
Spellskite
Anticipate
13x Island (Tolarian Academy if it wheeled)
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Swamp
This feels more consistent on getting forgemaster active, and better control in the early/mid. I like the Tezzeret as a backup wincon and the Gearhulk allows cute plays. In the end I feel the balance plan had some legs, and reanimator was probably the best at your seat but it wasn't set up in a way to let you move in confidently. All in all I think it was a hard draft for your spot. Thanks for putting this and your others up.
You asked for 9 human bans for Pure. I’ve also listed in parentheses other tribes affected. Here is my human list in order of importance:
1. Mother of Runes (Cleric) – wide potential abuse across archetypes
2. Snapcaster Mage (Wizard) – a no-brainer for any combo deck that just wants to survive
3. Grim Lavamancer (Wizard) – a ban of Burn’s best human keeps burn two-dimensional
4. Noble Hierarch (Druid) – making the strong decks stronger, green is only detriment
5. Delver of Secrets (Wizard) – swingy, non-interactive card (Vintage playable)
6. Knight of the Reliquary (Knight) – supports at least two combo decks and Wasteland
7. Champion of the Parish (Soldier) – aggro’s best friend, but other aggro decks exist
8. Dark Confidant (Wizard) – already on the list (interesting card) and susceptible to abuse
9. Laboratory Maniac (Wizard) - some people don't like the win conditions he enables
Honorable Mentions: Monastery Swiftspear (Monk), Thalia’s Lieutenant (Soldier), Young Pyromancer (Shaman), Magus of the Moon (Wizard), Eternal Witness (Shaman). I’m sure I missed some good candidates.
After looking at this list, nothing strikes me as incredible. Banning nine good creatures just makes Tribal’s already superior non-creature spells even that much better than they were previously. I think I’d rather keep the creatures and ban the tribe. Letting WW morph into Knights/Soldiers or Burn into Warriors would be a way more interesting situation. Honestly, when it comes to burn, I feel Fireblast (after Lightning Bolt) is a bazillion times more important than any Human. But from what I understand, Fireblast is soon coming back, getting us back in the same rut.
I'd be fine with that as an alternative to a complete Human ban. Although there are a few gems in that list, nevertheless, I think it's practically the equivalent of a human ban outright. But if better minds than mine can find a solution, more power to them.
WotC reduced the multiplayer functionality severely. There is only the free-for-all mode left. Even the 2HG mode got removed despite being one of the most popular modes in the casual room.
This means team multiplayer is not supported any more. You could still pretend to play a 2vs2, but the game does not recognise a team as winner, just a single player.
What about the following soft-ban:
Human as tribe is only allowed, if the cards are "pure" human, meaning those creatures don't have an additional creature type. Other humans can only be played as their additional creature type, for example Noble Hierarch as Druid.
The pure humans are (as of Kaladesh):
Abu Ja'far, Ali from Cairo, An-Havva Constable, Angry Mob, Arena Athlete, Caller of the Hunt, Cartographer, Cave People, Chaos Harlequin, Chaos Lord, Chosen of Markov, Cloistered Youth, Devout Harpist, Enchanted Being, Enlightened Maniac, Farrel's Zealot, Flying Men, Folk of An-Havva, Grizzled Angler, Herald of the Fair, Icatian Moneychanger, Imposing Sovereign, Kelsinko Ranger, Kindly Stranger, King Suleiman, Martyrs of Korlis, Master of the Hunt, Merchant Ship, Peacekeeper, People of the Woods, Port Inspector, Repentant Blacksmith, Scavenger Folk, Seller of Songbirds, Sengir Autocrat, Shu Farmer, Sindbad, Soul Sculptor, Stoic Builder, Stronghold Zeppelin, Town Gossipmonger, Tracker, Tragic Poet, Treasure Hunter, Uncle Istvan, Unruly Mob, Veteran Bodyguard, Village Cannibals, Village Survivors, Warden of the First Tree
It's unfortunate that WotC ignores the Tribal concept(not only the format itself!), by flooding the pool with humans.
But I think the statistics are somehow irritating, because if Goblins win, it's an aggro deck!
The numbers of direct damage spells and creatures may vary, but that is all.
If a 'human' deck wins, it could be almost anything from 'Instant Combo Kill' to 'White Weenie Aggro'.
So, if there are 3 different Human decks, and they use different strategies and colors(!!), I see no reason for action or a threat for the format.
Opposite to the example presented by Winter.Wolf( Paul Leicht)!
This kind of Instant Combo Kills should be rather adressed.
The idea to remove prize support for Humans is bizarre. As others wrote before, white weenie decks are cheap to build, hence are popular amongst beginners. Those are the ones who are happy when they win 1-2 tix!
I see absolutely no reason to punish players with little budgets, to cut their options in participating in the event.
Also, when dealing with a Pure-ban, it might get tricky with creatures with multiple subtypes. Does a Human Wizard count towards the Human ban, the Wizard ban, or both? What if it's determined that Wizards, for example, really needs a new ban but there is already a human wizard banned that never would have been played in a Wizards deck? Anyways, let's get a good tribal crossover rule before we go too far into this.
I see where you're coming from but really what you do now on a weekly basis is forming the shape of Tribal Wars Legacy as it official is. Whether WOTC chooses to follow up or not is irrelevant imho. You're the one maintaining the format so it is your obligation to do what you think is best for it.
For the record, I am probably one of a few players who can enter a tournament with a full playset of whatever I want. I might have to swap some trades around to accomplish a particular deck but I can definitely get it done. I don't think there is anything wrong with playing with the cards you have. I do agree that 3-4 tix should not be the goal if you have a collection like mine. Fun should be the goal. But everyone defines their fun differently.
I am of mixed feelings regarding banning an entire tribe that isn't Elves or Goblins. On the one hand Humans have SO many interesting and unique members that spawn archetypes on their own that to see them shut out of an event like this is not a good thing. But again the ubiquity of easy button tribes seems like it must be addressed somehow.
On the other hand the last time I played (or the time before) I ran into a fairly consistent turn 1-2 win grindstone painter's servant deck where Servant was the only relevant member of its tribe. So it isn't just Humans that can be abused by cheesy shoehorn strategies.
Personally I'd build a list of the worst offenders and start adding to it until the problem ebbs.
The reasons you said, and my wanting for Regular to be as much as possible an unadulterated Legacy Tribal Wars as if WotC started supporting it again (after revising their outdated ban list a little), as opposed to one filled with "house rules".
I think the first place to look is how many people drop from the event once they're out of contention for prizes; from what I've seen, it seems like it happens a lot.
Fair enough, but I don't know for sure these are players with very expensive decks. It might just be an effect of annoyance at being beaten, while recognizing the list needs fixing. This said, at least two of the three mentioned Human archetypes are pretty cheap, which is another reason they're popular.
Quoting the article: "Of course that specific card will go into the overall Pure ban list and be unusable to every other tribe as well; it'll just be a card whose absence affects that tribe the most."
I'm okay charging Fireblast to Humans. We can hit more Human-crucial cards from other tribes' quotas, like Soldier and Wizard. So we should have enough slots to get the intended result.
Ok, revised list:
Human (46) - Fireblast, Lightning Bolt, Brainstorm, Snapcaster Mage, Mother of Runes, Swords to Plowshares, Champion of the Parish, Delver of Secrets, Dark Confidant
Elf (29) - Elvish Archdruid, Wirewood Symbiote, Inkmoth Nexus, Chord of Calling, Collected Company (or Priest of Titania)
Goblin (23) - Aether Vial, Goblin Matron, Goblin Warchief, Goblin Chieftain (to be replaced by Lackey, if that returns to Regular)
Vampire (11) - Hymn to Tourach, Gatekeeper of Malakir
Shaman (10) - Dark Depths, Punishing Fire
Knight (9) - Knight Exemplar
Cat (8) - Path to Exile
Kor (8) - Batterskull (I guess, Stoneforge Mystic is possible, but it's interesting once the best Swords are gone)
Wall (8) - Green Sun's Zenith
Wizard (8) - Counterspell
Merfolk (7) - True-Name Nemesis
Eldrazi (6) - Eye of Ugin
Plant (6) - Natural Order (apply to Underdog!)
Ally (5) - Kabira Evangel
Archon (5) - Entomb (apply to Underdog!)
Berserker (5) - Searing Blaze (apply to Underdog!)
Kithkin (5) - Spectral Procession
Scout (5) - Scapeshift (already banned)
Soltari (5) - Honor of the Pure (apply to Underdog!)
Zombie (5) - Gray Merchant of Asphodel
General: Swords of X/Y
Leftovers from current list: Greater Gargadon, Griselbrand (set free?), Ball Lightning (set free?), Rage Forger (set free?)
Enlightened Tutor is probably worth inclusion somewhere too.
So, if we get rid of Fireblast, charging it to Humans (Goblin decks aren't even that interested in the card), can other decks like Warriors play it, or is it as currently exists, that the card is unavailable for every tribe?
I actually meant to touch on the drop in attendance. It certainly was a factor here.
I find some of your points...odd. I'm unsure how Wizards enabled people who wanted standard bannings--as you point out, standard bannings are rare, 7 in Magic's 22+ year history (and a number of those were bans that had to be expanded because busted decks weren't stopped). It's been 5 and a half years since a standard ban. A lot of people seem to ignore the underlying reason for this ban, the Jace ban, and the affinity ban. Tournament attendance fell. Each time there were answers, but the formats became unfun, enough that attendance starting dropping. That's what forces Wizards' hand. Sam Stoddard even confirmed it when he noted that continuous turn 4-6 Emrakul's was not fun, it needed to be a rarer event.
I don't play hearthstone, so I could be mistaken, but isn't hearthstone free to play at some point? That's a big difference that can account for a lot of the differences in community and company.
> That's unfortunate. I thought everything could be simulated via freeform?
Only deck building is affected by Freeform. Emperor and Two-Headed-Giant are game modes with different conditions than the regular game, like shared life totals and a certain group players need to be defeated for another group of players to win the game. An the word "opponent" behaves different. In FFA all other players are automatically opponents from the rules perspective. In 2HG your other head was not affected by your effects which targeted "your opponents".
WotC dropped those modes quite some time ago (> a year at least). And while the group of multiplayer regulars is and was relatively small, at least 2HG has been very popular and is dearly missed. I don't like the political aspect of free-for-all games. In 2HG you have at least a clear goal and "correct" play gets rewarded.
A workaround is using the FFA mode (the only multiplayer mode left) and just pretend that teams work. Players just should keep in mind that effects that affect "your opponents" also hurt their teammate. The game will not recognize a team win, this has to be handled by the players manually. As long as everyone is aware of this and the rules to work around the client's limitations are clear, this should be possible!
> And hey, pfirpfel! Hope to see you back in TribAp this year.
I will try and catch some events. Saturday is often busy. But I still check your articles and the results from time to time :)
Is your Pure tribal-specific ban list in addition to the original 9 cards for the format?
You mean the T9?
You know what, it would be swell if the T9 could be counted as bans for one tribe or another. This way there's just one list to look at. Aether Vial is easy, we can give that to Merfolk. The white removals are trickier, but we can distribute them among the bigger white tribes.
The Swords of X and Y are the trickiest, though. But maybe we could even unban them if the rest of the bans are solid enough.
That's unfortunate. I thought everything could be simulated via freeform?
And hey, pfirpfel! Hope to see you back in TribAp this year.
Yeah, I don't see a tier-1 or even tier-2 competitive deck ever coming from that pool, so Spikes will just discard the tribe altogether.
It's a nice idea for a special prize in Pure, though. I think I'll create it: win 1 tix if you enter a list where your creatures are all Human with no secondary types.
Hey, thanks for accepting my cry for help!
First of all, though, I think you misunderstood: the bans should be done the same way I was doing it so far, that is by banning anything relevant to a tribe, not just creatures. So Fireblast is a go, goodbye, good riddance for sure, charged to either Goblin or Human (we should feel free to allocate the bans to attain the best balance; clearly noncreature cards will directly affect multiple tribes, but we'll count them as the ban quota of just one).
On the other hand, for creatures with two tribes (or more, but that's rare), I was planning to let them count as the ban for both, provided they were actually played in winning archetypes of both. I think that has to be the key: not just one generically strong creature that bears the type of the tribe we're hitting, but one of the creatures that show up frequently in that tribe's decks and is often the MVP.
For instance, Dark Confidant is a good ban for Wizard, but not a particularly relevant Human ban, because Human decks rarely show up in black in TribAp. I would put down Confidant as one of the bans for Wizard, but in this case not counting it as one of the bans for Human.
Then again, the idea of just go and ban Human from Pure is not a bad one. Although, I don't know, it feels like saying the subformat doesn't really work, because it should be the subformat where all the tribes play without external help, and then we say that Human can't. I'd prefer to find a balance, if we can manage to.
Monastery Swiftspear and Young Pyromancer should be in the 9 for Human, because they're the backbone of the Red Humans Win deck that's the new Goblin. You don't stop that deck cold, you just redirect all Human players to it. I don't think Pyromancer is a MVP in Shaman (we should research that), but Monk decks are usually Bant affairs, so they don't care much about Swiftspear, and I don't think you can build a tier-1 monored Monk deck.
I think we should start writing basic lists like you did, then go to Gatherling and see how frequently those cards actually show up in winning decks (of all formats, not just Pure). For instance, I don't have the perception Noble Hierarch is really important for our Human decks (possibly also an effect of the fact that's very non-budget-friendly). And if you take away all the obvious reasons to go Bant, like Delver, then Noble Hierarch just becomes a mana fixing tool that helps build more interesting decks. And once they reprint it, it might be more accessible.
I won't be able to work on this before next Friday, though.
Deluxicoff I like your more midrange idea. Take out the one drop creatures for more removal and stronger 3 drops. Will def try it out.
Wow, thanks for that, glad you are enjoying the articles. There are plenty more to come, and I appreciate the feedback you have given on this and the other Vintage cube article!
Here's my thoughts:
p1p3: Might have gone memory jar over garruk, but that's a hedging choice rather than a commiting choice that you made here, I think you're still right but I'm biased cause I read the article.
P1P8: I'd have considered Duplicant more, since you'd be unlikely to have removal and polukranos' effect is super delayed, plus this doesn't make you commit as hard to green.
P2P1: Through the breach had some game here, but i'd still go catacombs.
P2P3: Toxic deluge could go with ur fetch and give you some ability to comeback from a bad hand.
P2P9: Throught the breach should be more tempting now that you have craterhoof, as you really only need him for a turn anyway.
P3P1: 15th pick harmonize and 9th pick gaea's cradle prolly meant you're the only green drafter and you could get elvish mystic to wheel. I'd have taken Karn.
All in all, I think you were very solid and well thought in your picks. Thanks a bundle for posting this as they're my absolute favorite articles.
Here's my thoughts through the draft.
P1P1: It was down to grave titan and myr battle, balance is the most upside but requires more pieces and I'd rather pick it up a bit later when i have some. If it was legacy cube id have picked grave titan, but myr was the choice.
P1P2: Grim monolith, with entomb being picked if you went grave titan.
P1P3: Workshop was the pick, it's so much more powerful and you already have the battlesphere. I never would think workshop would wheel here.
P1P4: I think high tide was the right pick.
P1P5: Kuldotha plus battlesphere is super good.
P1P6: Disenchant over nothing.
P1P7: I'd have taken the land(colonnade), while your early had little interaction here, porcelain legionnaire isn't super effective on the forgemaster plan.
P1P8: Definitely the signet.
P1P9: Welder was a greedy pick over the temple, but you had no reason to want black at this point, so I'd have taken welder as well.
P1P10: Godless shrine over enlightened tutor, I don't like enlightened tutor due to card disadvantage here and without any counters at this point you really telecast forgemaster it to players that have one. Artifacts can goesper and shrine is better than temples.
P1P11: Careful Study over nekrataal, even if we play black I wouldn't play over our other picks and we have high tide by now so we want to play as many islands as we can.
P1P12: Same. (Hangarback Walker)
P1P13: Nykthos had some upside here over day of judgement, but only if you knew the rest of the draft, so I'd have picked judgement as well. We don't know yet if we can truly commit to high tide and our blue devotion as of now is 0.
P1P14-15: Nothing meaningful.
P2P1: I go signet as well.
P2P2: Tougher than you made it seem, we have 2 signets, grim monolith, and you would also have legionnaire. I think academy's upside isn't super great for you yet and counterspell would have helped you more I think. Also academy has a better chance to wheel here if no1 else is on the artifact plan, since we took workshop earlier over wurmcoil. I'll assume we keep academy here as it would really warp later picks, but i would have taken counterspell and hope for academy wheel.
P2P3: Show and Tell would wheel less likely than blightsteel and I'd have taken that instead, we already have good show/tell targets and gives us more nut hands and a backup in case we can't forgemaster.
P2P4: If we had any wheels by now LED would be tempting, but tbh we'd have taken shelldock even then, since LED wheels somewhat often. I'd have taken seal here since I don't think you be able to activate shelldock very well. I mean 7 cards +5+2 is 26 cards on turn 5/6 and that's playing the careful study I picked over you. Also, we want a regular island over shelldock for high tide, and seal doesn't tell you opponent you're getting forgemaster/show and tell.
P2P5: We already have two many high cost cards for sphinx, and I don't personally like sphinx too much. Baleful strix was the pick, easier to cast and gives us better early and enable forgemaster and academy better.
P2P6: Probe is far better than you gave credit as you can play around counters better, since countering your forgemaster(or our show/tell) really hoses this deck. I'd have picked either probe or Tamiyo. Damnation is greedy option, we might decide to drop white, with just disenchant/judgement as playables and orzhov signet and collonnade as fixing we might want two colors over three. Tamiyo if went counterspell, probe since we went academy.
P2P7: Shackles is the pick, shardless agent shouldn't be on the radar. Now with hight tide shackles and academy, we want to be as heavy blue as possible.
P2P8: I honestly want to pick Fire/Ice with careful study+welder and now wanting heavy blue we might want to run blue with a small red splash. If we had one or two more discard effects for welder I'd recommend it. Otherwise I agree with the trinket mage and hope really hard for it; you already have day of judgement which is just a little worse than verdict.
P2P9: Karakas wouldn't have been horrible for you, and it's even better if you have the show and tell. I'd go karakas, scroll rack needed shelldock to be activatable.
P2P10: I agree with Tidehollow, but I'm unhappy, your logic here applies to why we wanted baleful strix. Academy if it wheeled though.
P2P11: Blightsteel if it wheeled, otherwise, et Mishra's Factory, it's slightly more useful than the sun titan for this deck.
P2P12: I'd take LED, maybe pack 3 could have a wheel, plus you have trinket mage.
13-15: Nothing of importance.
P3P1: I agree with Tezzeret, the compulsive research for the heavyblue/red is there but it'd have to wheel to want it for that gameplan.
P3P2: I'd go force of will, your ramp is a plenty and the extra counter is more helpful, especially if you didn't have counterspell from pack 2.
P3P3: I'd have gone phantasmal image over sphinx rev, it's arguably the best clone, works great with show and tell if it backfires, and many of your good ramp is a one-shot type effec and you dont want to tap grim or play high tide for a big sphinx. Plus this lets you be more blue.
P3P4: I'd have taken signet, the third signet in this deck makes a big difference.
P3P5: I think you should have taken thoughtseize, namely because you had no counters and this deck really wants to ensure it lands its big cards. Dismember is better if we already had the counters though, but since we had counters I'd take the gearhulk since it has better targets with my picks.
P3P6: Nev disk lets us have a board wipe and stay hard blue, with no fetches I'd take it over scrubland here.
P3P7: Brain maggot over Elspeth, I probably wouldn't main either but elspeth doesnt match our game plan and we might side in brain maggot.
P3P8: Definitely Urborg
P3P9-15 All the same.
So I'd have something like:
Myr Battlesphere
Grim monolith
Mishra's workshop
High Tide
Kuldotha Forgemaster
GRuul signet
Simic Signet
Orzhov signet
Careful Study
Gitaxian probe
Baleful Strix
Vedalken Shackles
Force of Will
Tezzeret Agent of Bolas
Imperial Seal
Phantasmal Image
Torrential Gearhulk
Nevinyral's Disk
Imperial Seal
Hangarback Walker
Spellskite
Anticipate
13x Island (Tolarian Academy if it wheeled)
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Swamp
Brain Maggot
Karakas
Goblin Welder
Disenchant
Lion's Eye Diamond
Tidehollower
Trinket MAge
This feels more consistent on getting forgemaster active, and better control in the early/mid. I like the Tezzeret as a backup wincon and the Gearhulk allows cute plays. In the end I feel the balance plan had some legs, and reanimator was probably the best at your seat but it wasn't set up in a way to let you move in confidently. All in all I think it was a hard draft for your spot. Thanks for putting this and your others up.
You asked for 9 human bans for Pure. I’ve also listed in parentheses other tribes affected. Here is my human list in order of importance:
1. Mother of Runes (Cleric) – wide potential abuse across archetypes
2. Snapcaster Mage (Wizard) – a no-brainer for any combo deck that just wants to survive
3. Grim Lavamancer (Wizard) – a ban of Burn’s best human keeps burn two-dimensional
4. Noble Hierarch (Druid) – making the strong decks stronger, green is only detriment
5. Delver of Secrets (Wizard) – swingy, non-interactive card (Vintage playable)
6. Knight of the Reliquary (Knight) – supports at least two combo decks and Wasteland
7. Champion of the Parish (Soldier) – aggro’s best friend, but other aggro decks exist
8. Dark Confidant (Wizard) – already on the list (interesting card) and susceptible to abuse
9. Laboratory Maniac (Wizard) - some people don't like the win conditions he enables
Honorable Mentions: Monastery Swiftspear (Monk), Thalia’s Lieutenant (Soldier), Young Pyromancer (Shaman), Magus of the Moon (Wizard), Eternal Witness (Shaman). I’m sure I missed some good candidates.
After looking at this list, nothing strikes me as incredible. Banning nine good creatures just makes Tribal’s already superior non-creature spells even that much better than they were previously. I think I’d rather keep the creatures and ban the tribe. Letting WW morph into Knights/Soldiers or Burn into Warriors would be a way more interesting situation. Honestly, when it comes to burn, I feel Fireblast (after Lightning Bolt) is a bazillion times more important than any Human. But from what I understand, Fireblast is soon coming back, getting us back in the same rut.
I'd be fine with that as an alternative to a complete Human ban. Although there are a few gems in that list, nevertheless, I think it's practically the equivalent of a human ban outright. But if better minds than mine can find a solution, more power to them.
"[...] (is Emperor still playable on MTGO?)"
WotC reduced the multiplayer functionality severely. There is only the free-for-all mode left. Even the 2HG mode got removed despite being one of the most popular modes in the casual room.
This means team multiplayer is not supported any more. You could still pretend to play a 2vs2, but the game does not recognise a team as winner, just a single player.
What about the following soft-ban:
Human as tribe is only allowed, if the cards are "pure" human, meaning those creatures don't have an additional creature type. Other humans can only be played as their additional creature type, for example Noble Hierarch as Druid.
The pure humans are (as of Kaladesh):
Abu Ja'far, Ali from Cairo, An-Havva Constable, Angry Mob, Arena Athlete, Caller of the Hunt, Cartographer, Cave People, Chaos Harlequin, Chaos Lord, Chosen of Markov, Cloistered Youth, Devout Harpist, Enchanted Being, Enlightened Maniac, Farrel's Zealot, Flying Men, Folk of An-Havva, Grizzled Angler, Herald of the Fair, Icatian Moneychanger, Imposing Sovereign, Kelsinko Ranger, Kindly Stranger, King Suleiman, Martyrs of Korlis, Master of the Hunt, Merchant Ship, Peacekeeper, People of the Woods, Port Inspector, Repentant Blacksmith, Scavenger Folk, Seller of Songbirds, Sengir Autocrat, Shu Farmer, Sindbad, Soul Sculptor, Stoic Builder, Stronghold Zeppelin, Town Gossipmonger, Tracker, Tragic Poet, Treasure Hunter, Uncle Istvan, Unruly Mob, Veteran Bodyguard, Village Cannibals, Village Survivors, Warden of the First Tree
It's unfortunate that WotC ignores the Tribal concept(not only the format itself!), by flooding the pool with humans.
But I think the statistics are somehow irritating, because if Goblins win, it's an aggro deck!
The numbers of direct damage spells and creatures may vary, but that is all.
If a 'human' deck wins, it could be almost anything from 'Instant Combo Kill' to 'White Weenie Aggro'.
So, if there are 3 different Human decks, and they use different strategies and colors(!!), I see no reason for action or a threat for the format.
Opposite to the example presented by Winter.Wolf( Paul Leicht)!
This kind of Instant Combo Kills should be rather adressed.
The idea to remove prize support for Humans is bizarre. As others wrote before, white weenie decks are cheap to build, hence are popular amongst beginners. Those are the ones who are happy when they win 1-2 tix!
I see absolutely no reason to punish players with little budgets, to cut their options in participating in the event.
Also, when dealing with a Pure-ban, it might get tricky with creatures with multiple subtypes. Does a Human Wizard count towards the Human ban, the Wizard ban, or both? What if it's determined that Wizards, for example, really needs a new ban but there is already a human wizard banned that never would have been played in a Wizards deck? Anyways, let's get a good tribal crossover rule before we go too far into this.
Excellent, I will feast on ham!
Is your Pure tribal-specific ban list in addition to the original 9 cards for the format?
The VSL section in the article was not finished.
I see where you're coming from but really what you do now on a weekly basis is forming the shape of Tribal Wars Legacy as it official is. Whether WOTC chooses to follow up or not is irrelevant imho. You're the one maintaining the format so it is your obligation to do what you think is best for it.
For the record, I am probably one of a few players who can enter a tournament with a full playset of whatever I want. I might have to swap some trades around to accomplish a particular deck but I can definitely get it done. I don't think there is anything wrong with playing with the cards you have. I do agree that 3-4 tix should not be the goal if you have a collection like mine. Fun should be the goal. But everyone defines their fun differently.
I am of mixed feelings regarding banning an entire tribe that isn't Elves or Goblins. On the one hand Humans have SO many interesting and unique members that spawn archetypes on their own that to see them shut out of an event like this is not a good thing. But again the ubiquity of easy button tribes seems like it must be addressed somehow.
On the other hand the last time I played (or the time before) I ran into a fairly consistent turn 1-2 win grindstone painter's servant deck where Servant was the only relevant member of its tribe. So it isn't just Humans that can be abused by cheesy shoehorn strategies.
Personally I'd build a list of the worst offenders and start adding to it until the problem ebbs.
Why exactly?
The reasons you said, and my wanting for Regular to be as much as possible an unadulterated Legacy Tribal Wars as if WotC started supporting it again (after revising their outdated ban list a little), as opposed to one filled with "house rules".
I think the first place to look is how many people drop from the event once they're out of contention for prizes; from what I've seen, it seems like it happens a lot.
Fair enough, but I don't know for sure these are players with very expensive decks. It might just be an effect of annoyance at being beaten, while recognizing the list needs fixing. This said, at least two of the three mentioned Human archetypes are pretty cheap, which is another reason they're popular.