I agree that in past instances, Wizards has shown that they usually wind up ripping out as many pieces as possible when bannings happen against blatantly powerful decks. Standard Affinity was basically vaporized in the final round of bannings against it. Caw Blade had both powerful cards banned, even after they had already decided to print Stoneforge Mystic in an Event Deck. If they did wind up banning both Eye and Eldrazi Temple, I wouldn't be surprised at all.
Aaron's comment leaves me hopeful that at least when future NON-Eldrazi bannings come around (and possibly even for this Eldrazi one...maybe) they will try very hard to find bans that can get the desired effect without completely erasing the deck from the format.
I think as long as they announce it IN MTGO, it should be defensible. So they would need to create a warning screen that shows up either:
1) After selecting the event, but before you select your entry option.
or
2) Prior to deck selection/drafting
The screen should state something like the following.
The following card(s) are known to be severely bugged:
Myr Superion
Wizards of the Coast has temporarily determined that using the card(s) in this Event is considered a violation of the CoC and ToS agreements, subject to further action as determined by Wizards of the Coast.
Click YES that you have read and understand this warning.
If you don't agree to it, then no playing in the event, period. This way it is stated right up front that the card has problems, they have clearly made the player aware of their stance on the card, and nobody should be surprised if they have action taken against them for using the card.
There is no need for them to keep announcing information in so many places when there is only one place that it really has to be announced when it comes to MTGO. (At least that is my opinion.)
"If you have a bug and you end up winning, I think you only get the difference? "
This is no longer true. If the software screws up and you have to file for compensation, you get your entry fee back and still get to keep any prizes you manage to win.
Feels a bit like them putting their money were their mouth is on improving client stability, I thought it was nice to see.
If you have a bug and you end up winning, I think you only get the difference? I'm not sure about that though, it's been a long time since I've had to file for compensation.
These are my personal views, but I'll preface this with saying that I don't believe you did anything wrong.
What I see as right and fair are two separate things. The fair thing to do is to pretend it has flying if you opponent meant to give it flying. If they delved with the intent of Soulflayer having flying and the game denying them that opportunity, then it's only fair to play as though it worked correctly. You're not putting yourself at a disadvantage by doing this, you're removing your opponents disadvantage.
The right thing to do is to let your opponent know they can get compensation.
What if your opponent couldn't get compensation? Would you have attacked?
I can't wait for the bans. I've not even played since Oath was released since the set seems wholly unappealing to me, the decks I had previously in standard don't keep up, and modern appears to have become slow and stagnant. I like innistrad, but I'm a modern player and if modern is boring I don't play
The metagame has indeed shifted (well, it would be bad if it didn't after 5 years!), but I think "combo and reanimator are kings" is just an impression from these past few weeks. The last 15 event winners were:
Beast
Berserker
Elf
Elf
Elf
Skeleton
Goblin
Human
Human
Naga
Cleric
Ally
Shaman
Archon
Human
And I think not too many of them weren't good ole linear aggro, but it's the case of the most recent ones.
Goblin and Elves are less dominating also because in half of each month's events they're either banned (Underdog) or crippled (Pure).
Yeah, this set seems mostly to be a case of the rich tribes getting (uselessly) richer. Very few playables since the bar is already so high in those tribes.
How far can you go back in time and claim reimbursement ?
Recently I have had some more experienced mtgo user friends of mine informing me about stuff that is and was bugged long ago. And when they tell me I look at replays and remember that f.ex. "ahhhh ofc, the watchdog was bugged ?, I thought I was prohibited to block with it because it did not have reach".
I must have redemption cases for like 10.000 dollars/tickets with mtgo, that my friends have made me aware of, I have played mtgo that much.
Imo mtgo should tell ME what is bugged, not the other way around that I have to find and detect them myself, right ?
Your rule would never sanction anyone, because Wizards would have to prove that the player *knew.* How do you prove that in a situation like MTGO? It is hard enough to prove in real world, only harder in the online world.
Further, 'what they announce' where? By who? How long do those edicts hold? Should players have to read the announcements before playing in every tournament?
Personally, I wouldn't be concerned. You didn't play the Soulflayer. As far as a Wizards employee would see, you just knew it didn't have flying, not that you knew it bugged out. Whether that makes it 'ethical' as Wizards defines it is another story.
ToS and CoC are contracts of adhesion (take it or leave it) and are probably not legal, though no court has ruled as such. Most of the cases settle, and it is a big fight in the legal contract world.
Without suing Wizards, they can change the ToS and CoC as much as they because it is a contract of adhesion. The 'power' the player has is to stop using the program.
I would say that they should make it a little more clear. I would suggest something like:
If you enter a constructed tournament and put into your deck a card that you know is bugged in a positive way and has been publicly announced as such that's definitely cause for sanctions.
If it happens in Limited, I don't really see how anyone can be held responsible. You should always get to play with all of the cards you open/draft, or you're at a disadvantage. If you put it into your deck and it doesn't work, you should be able to file for comp. If it works too well, you should not get comp, but your opponents might. But no one should be sanctioned, even if it was announced - there's no guarantee you have that card in your pool, and otherwise you're one card short of everyone else.
If you have a card in your deck that was publicly announced as bugged in a negative way, limited or constructed, then unless records show you're a compensation troll, you probably didn't know and should probably get compensation. But this one is debatable, since they did announce it.
If you key it to "what they announce" vs. "what is a bug", it becomes much easier to define some guidelines.
Thank you for signal boosting the ethicist column!!! I loved NYT's ethicist back in the day and had great fun reading this one (especially the "ball lightning" aside haha).
Well, the way I saw it. Pretending that my opponent's Soulflayer has flying puts me at a severe disadvantage for the rest of the game. Essentially, it means I can't attack with anything that flies as long as Soulflayer is untapped and on the board.
I am not entitled to a refund because the bug is inadvertently working in my favor. So, if I continue to play the match with my self-imposed handicap and lose, I don't get a prize, and I can't claim compensation for the bug, because it was my self-imposed handicap that caused the loss, not the bug itself. My opponent can then win the prize and possibly get compensation because of the bug, because it effected him negatively even if I didn't take advantage of it.
On the other hand, simply attacking and winning the match means that I win the prize and my opponent isn't doing too bad, because he definitely deserves and will receive compensation.
I was not trying to take advantage of the bug, but pretending the bug isn't there is not really a fair way of resolving the issue.
My main concern was that I might get suspended because I won due to a bug that gave me an advantage. The issue with Myr Superion just makes me think that I handled the situation wrongly, and I might be in trouble, even though I tried to do the right thing by letting my opponent know about compensation after the match.
I would have pretended it had flying and deathtouch since I imagine your opponent wanted it to have those abilities when they delved. I wouldn't fault you for attacking, perhaps you would have attacked anyway to trade off the creatures (it just so happens that instead of trading, your opponent now dies). You're not making an illegal play or presenting your opponent with false information, the game itself is what is letting you attack without your opponent having a flying Soulflayer. I think most people would attack if they were you and most people would be upset if they were the opponent.
If you feel bad about attacking and winning that way, then I suppose you shouldn't have attacked.
The Wolfir is a build around me card, but with reusable mulitargeting and pitch spells, it's easy to exploit. Think pyrokinesis, bounty of the hunt, and travel preparations and you can make an army very quickly.
Yeah, Diregraf Colossus is insane (and I didn't even think of Gravecrawler interaction!) Not so sure about Silverfur Partisan, it requires building around it (probably with green pump spells, which is a strategy I am not too fond of), otherwise it's just a 3cc 2/2 creature that leaves a body behind if an opponent kills it with a spell.
Wow, just saw Thalia's Lieutenant spoiled. That and Champion of the Parish will really make for some undercosted WW fatties (especially if used with Allies).
I think Control needs all the help it can get (the best of which would be an extra 5-10 minutes on the clock, esp. in 3-round events), so I'm a big fan of access to Tsabo's Decree. Six-mana spells in Legacy SHOULD win games. This doesn't even do that, but it goes a long way. It's not overpowered, as, besides being six mana, it misses off-tribal stuff, non-creatures, and is susceptible to tier-1 all-stars like Enlightened Tutor or tier-2 all-stars like Isochron Scepter.
Hi, Oliver, thanks for reading!
I agree that in past instances, Wizards has shown that they usually wind up ripping out as many pieces as possible when bannings happen against blatantly powerful decks. Standard Affinity was basically vaporized in the final round of bannings against it. Caw Blade had both powerful cards banned, even after they had already decided to print Stoneforge Mystic in an Event Deck. If they did wind up banning both Eye and Eldrazi Temple, I wouldn't be surprised at all.
Aaron's comment leaves me hopeful that at least when future NON-Eldrazi bannings come around (and possibly even for this Eldrazi one...maybe) they will try very hard to find bans that can get the desired effect without completely erasing the deck from the format.
I think as long as they announce it IN MTGO, it should be defensible. So they would need to create a warning screen that shows up either:
1) After selecting the event, but before you select your entry option.
or
2) Prior to deck selection/drafting
The screen should state something like the following.
The following card(s) are known to be severely bugged:
Myr Superion
Wizards of the Coast has temporarily determined that using the card(s) in this Event is considered a violation of the CoC and ToS agreements, subject to further action as determined by Wizards of the Coast.
Click YES that you have read and understand this warning.
If you don't agree to it, then no playing in the event, period. This way it is stated right up front that the card has problems, they have clearly made the player aware of their stance on the card, and nobody should be surprised if they have action taken against them for using the card.
There is no need for them to keep announcing information in so many places when there is only one place that it really has to be announced when it comes to MTGO. (At least that is my opinion.)
"If you have a bug and you end up winning, I think you only get the difference? "
This is no longer true. If the software screws up and you have to file for compensation, you get your entry fee back and still get to keep any prizes you manage to win.
Feels a bit like them putting their money were their mouth is on improving client stability, I thought it was nice to see.
If you have a bug and you end up winning, I think you only get the difference? I'm not sure about that though, it's been a long time since I've had to file for compensation.
These are my personal views, but I'll preface this with saying that I don't believe you did anything wrong.
What I see as right and fair are two separate things. The fair thing to do is to pretend it has flying if you opponent meant to give it flying. If they delved with the intent of Soulflayer having flying and the game denying them that opportunity, then it's only fair to play as though it worked correctly. You're not putting yourself at a disadvantage by doing this, you're removing your opponents disadvantage.
The right thing to do is to let your opponent know they can get compensation.
What if your opponent couldn't get compensation? Would you have attacked?
I know those feels as a Modern player as well.
I can't wait for the bans. I've not even played since Oath was released since the set seems wholly unappealing to me, the decks I had previously in standard don't keep up, and modern appears to have become slow and stagnant. I like innistrad, but I'm a modern player and if modern is boring I don't play
The metagame has indeed shifted (well, it would be bad if it didn't after 5 years!), but I think "combo and reanimator are kings" is just an impression from these past few weeks. The last 15 event winners were:
Beast
Berserker
Elf
Elf
Elf
Skeleton
Goblin
Human
Human
Naga
Cleric
Ally
Shaman
Archon
Human
And I think not too many of them weren't good ole linear aggro, but it's the case of the most recent ones.
Goblin and Elves are less dominating also because in half of each month's events they're either banned (Underdog) or crippled (Pure).
Yeah, this set seems mostly to be a case of the rich tribes getting (uselessly) richer. Very few playables since the bar is already so high in those tribes.
Great, we really needed something to enhance linear Human builds, there are so few of those.
How far can you go back in time and claim reimbursement ?
Recently I have had some more experienced mtgo user friends of mine informing me about stuff that is and was bugged long ago. And when they tell me I look at replays and remember that f.ex. "ahhhh ofc, the watchdog was bugged ?, I thought I was prohibited to block with it because it did not have reach".
I must have redemption cases for like 10.000 dollars/tickets with mtgo, that my friends have made me aware of, I have played mtgo that much.
Imo mtgo should tell ME what is bugged, not the other way around that I have to find and detect them myself, right ?
And do they need to follow all the different venues that WOTC employees might post relevant information on?
Your rule would never sanction anyone, because Wizards would have to prove that the player *knew.* How do you prove that in a situation like MTGO? It is hard enough to prove in real world, only harder in the online world.
Further, 'what they announce' where? By who? How long do those edicts hold? Should players have to read the announcements before playing in every tournament?
Personally, I wouldn't be concerned. You didn't play the Soulflayer. As far as a Wizards employee would see, you just knew it didn't have flying, not that you knew it bugged out. Whether that makes it 'ethical' as Wizards defines it is another story.
ToS and CoC are contracts of adhesion (take it or leave it) and are probably not legal, though no court has ruled as such. Most of the cases settle, and it is a big fight in the legal contract world.
Without suing Wizards, they can change the ToS and CoC as much as they because it is a contract of adhesion. The 'power' the player has is to stop using the program.
I would say that they should make it a little more clear. I would suggest something like:
If you enter a constructed tournament and put into your deck a card that you know is bugged in a positive way and has been publicly announced as such that's definitely cause for sanctions.
If it happens in Limited, I don't really see how anyone can be held responsible. You should always get to play with all of the cards you open/draft, or you're at a disadvantage. If you put it into your deck and it doesn't work, you should be able to file for comp. If it works too well, you should not get comp, but your opponents might. But no one should be sanctioned, even if it was announced - there's no guarantee you have that card in your pool, and otherwise you're one card short of everyone else.
If you have a card in your deck that was publicly announced as bugged in a negative way, limited or constructed, then unless records show you're a compensation troll, you probably didn't know and should probably get compensation. But this one is debatable, since they did announce it.
If you key it to "what they announce" vs. "what is a bug", it becomes much easier to define some guidelines.
Thank you for signal boosting the ethicist column!!! I loved NYT's ethicist back in the day and had great fun reading this one (especially the "ball lightning" aside haha).
Well, the way I saw it. Pretending that my opponent's Soulflayer has flying puts me at a severe disadvantage for the rest of the game. Essentially, it means I can't attack with anything that flies as long as Soulflayer is untapped and on the board.
I am not entitled to a refund because the bug is inadvertently working in my favor. So, if I continue to play the match with my self-imposed handicap and lose, I don't get a prize, and I can't claim compensation for the bug, because it was my self-imposed handicap that caused the loss, not the bug itself. My opponent can then win the prize and possibly get compensation because of the bug, because it effected him negatively even if I didn't take advantage of it.
On the other hand, simply attacking and winning the match means that I win the prize and my opponent isn't doing too bad, because he definitely deserves and will receive compensation.
I was not trying to take advantage of the bug, but pretending the bug isn't there is not really a fair way of resolving the issue.
My main concern was that I might get suspended because I won due to a bug that gave me an advantage. The issue with Myr Superion just makes me think that I handled the situation wrongly, and I might be in trouble, even though I tried to do the right thing by letting my opponent know about compensation after the match.
I would have pretended it had flying and deathtouch since I imagine your opponent wanted it to have those abilities when they delved. I wouldn't fault you for attacking, perhaps you would have attacked anyway to trade off the creatures (it just so happens that instead of trading, your opponent now dies). You're not making an illegal play or presenting your opponent with false information, the game itself is what is letting you attack without your opponent having a flying Soulflayer. I think most people would attack if they were you and most people would be upset if they were the opponent.
If you feel bad about attacking and winning that way, then I suppose you shouldn't have attacked.
The Wolfir is a build around me card, but with reusable mulitargeting and pitch spells, it's easy to exploit. Think pyrokinesis, bounty of the hunt, and travel preparations and you can make an army very quickly.
Yeah, Diregraf Colossus is insane (and I didn't even think of Gravecrawler interaction!) Not so sure about Silverfur Partisan, it requires building around it (probably with green pump spells, which is a strategy I am not too fond of), otherwise it's just a 3cc 2/2 creature that leaves a body behind if an opponent kills it with a spell.
Have you seen Diergraf Colossus and the new Wolfir? Those things look crazy. Can't wait to combo Gravecrawler with the Colossus.
Wow, just saw Thalia's Lieutenant spoiled. That and Champion of the Parish will really make for some undercosted WW fatties (especially if used with Allies).
Agreed.
You could plausibly say you wanted to trade anyway.
I think Control needs all the help it can get (the best of which would be an extra 5-10 minutes on the clock, esp. in 3-round events), so I'm a big fan of access to Tsabo's Decree. Six-mana spells in Legacy SHOULD win games. This doesn't even do that, but it goes a long way. It's not overpowered, as, besides being six mana, it misses off-tribal stuff, non-creatures, and is susceptible to tier-1 all-stars like Enlightened Tutor or tier-2 all-stars like Isochron Scepter.
At no point did they imply Myr Superion should not be played. If you are running the 4 Hierarch 4 BoP elf deck, WotC would encourage you top play it.
Great work on researching precedent. That must have been quite time consuming