If you already have most of the cards for Grixis Twin, then go with that. Any Twin build is a lot of fun and not just because of the free wins you can get from it, but also how the deck plays. These Twin decks can switch gears pretty easily and become more control, which is another nice archetype I enjoy playing. Build Grixis Twin and you're not far off from also having Grixis Delver, so that's also a plus!
Gotcha, thanks. I had assumed that Twin ran 2 Tasigurs and 2 Anglers. But I guess there's no room for Thought Scours, making the deck unable to support 4 Snapcasters and 4 Delve creatures. I think, though, that if I branch out to Twin I'll just build Grixis since I already have Chapin's control list built and Goyfs plus the green duals are a significant financial commitment on top of what I'd already need to buy.
Lantern Control!? Oh, man, I'd rather saw my foot off, shoot it, and then sew it back on then play that deck... Let me see if I can get the cards. Maybe you'll see some videos from me in the near future. But if any one complains to me in the daily then I'm going to tell them to take it up with Islandswamp!
I've played Grixis Twin and liked it. I don't think it's a bad deck, but I just prefer Tarmo Twin over it. Goyf does have a slight advantage over Tasigur, which is Tasigur is legendary. Grixis Twin usually runs two Tasigurs and no Anglers. Grixis Delver is the deck that you'll most likely see Angler, not Twin. Another thing I like about Tarmo is that Gitaxian Probe gives us information and draws a card, enabling us to dig a little deeper for a combo piece. Inquisition doesn't dig. K Command is pretty sweet, no argument from me there, and all Grixis Twin is doing is replacing Roast for Terminate. The decks are very similar and your goal with either deck is the same. It mostly just comes down to personal preference.
What advantage does Tarmo Twin have over Grixis right now? I'm by no means a Modern expert, having just started playing the format last week, but it seems like Tasigur/Angler are more resilient than Goyf and Terminate, IoK, and K Command outclass anything green brings to the table.
And I hope you neve do! Yes that's the plan but it may not always be on time. Same w hornet queen. I used to play a lot of green devotion before Khans. I always struggled with fliers when I splashed white even with the colossus.
I player GW for a few weeks and found it to be a good to great deck. Just the RG is better right now. That could. change.
Oh abzan will always be fine. It's really just GB splash white. I'll always be a GB player at heart from my Pod days. My problem is not so much abzan becoming bad as it is paying for any new paper cards until the house sells. I'm probably going to try one more RL event before rotation and the. Hunker down to chase MOCS which I could in theory dedicate my time to.
Yeah it just seemed like a completely bone headed mistake. Should have been obvious. Plus it cost a game and a chance to sideboard even though I hadn't seen his cards I figure without the mistake I'd have had maybe a fighting chance against devotion.
Defnitely not a mistake I d repeat. For certain. I guess in the end I guess it was a free mistake because I had to drop anyways. The win would have meant nothing. Well except pride.
Being the selfish limited player that I am, I quite like the cheap pack prices. If limited players are where Wizards makes most of their money, why would they want to do something that messes with us? And, the more of us there are cracking open packs in limited, the more that drives down the prices for singles.
I don't see writers complain that singles are too cheap and that Wizards needs to do something to drive up those prices.
I played this deck briefly before selling all my Modern staples to buy into Legacy. If I did start to play Modern again, the decks I'd want to play would be RUG Twin, Scapeshift, Tron, or perhaps Jund. Probably a deck with blue in it. I never got to cast Cryptic Command, and I want to try it some day.
I love a good glass cannon deck. I don't need any convincing to sleeve up glass cannon decks! :)
There is something capriciously fun about saying to an opponent: "Hey Tier 1 Opponent! You got an answer to THIS?!" and then you proceed to throw everything in his face and ask him to deal with the mess! :)
For example, it was a golden moment when Josh Utter Leyton (Jund) was defeated by Duke Reid (Bogles) in the semi-finals of the Magic World Championship.
The 3 tix floor on pack value is out of question (as are some of the other solutions) for several reasons. It would lose Wizards a lot of money. Even if they did it so that it starts only in the following set, it would decrease the tix sales because it would be a new way to add tix to the system. Wizards would sell less tix and the secondary market tix value would also decrease. This meant that while we were getting paid 3 tix per booster, those tix would be worth less than before. Sure, the entry fee would decrease as well but everyone's collections would be worth less and cashing out or selling tix for money would be much worse. This would end up being bad for everyone.
Using boosters as entry fee might also create gambling laws problems. In limited events those boosters are opened but if you could use them in constructed events it meant you were paying boosters to try to win more and that might some problems, especially because MTGO is played Worldwide and it's really hard to be safe from gambling laws everywhere. However, there is actually a place where this can be used. I remember playing Release events where I could join with 6 packs + 4 or 6 tix. The value of the packs wouldn't decrease much during the release weeks. Now, most people are paying 24 tix and trading whatever packs they win and valuable cards for more tix so they can play more of those. This makes the pack value decrease much more during those weeks. Keep the Pre Releases with store bought items + tix for those who really can't wait for the new set but let thos who wait play the Releases with packs. It would also help if they brought back the 4packs sealed that allowed you to join with only boosters because that was a great booster sinker.
There are two ways to do Generic boosters: either make you choose which booster you want it to be before trading/opening/entering a limited event with it or allowing you to trade it as a generic booster (it's mainly the trading that is important because turning it into pack X and entering an event or using it directly in place of pack X is basivally the same). If you are allowed to trade it as a generic booster, it would always retain a slightly higher value than the most expensive non generic standard legal pack. But we don't really know what effects would this have in the long run. After about 2 years, every standard pack would be from a generic booster era and it's not easy to predict how that would work, especially because people could hold the boosters for years and the system could end up having a pack flood when people finally decided to cash out as prices weren't getting better. Obviously they could limited how each generic booster could be converted, but that would end up being very confusing.
Most solutions, are very similar to having a short blanket and pushing it to cover your feet while uncovering your chest. Sure, your feet might be colder than everything else but eventually your chest will be colder. And while some things actually help a bit in the short term, they change nothing in the long term and they should only be used while a permanent solution isn't found/implemented.
The are only two ways to permanently fix these problems:
1) improve the online-paper connection
2) improve MTGO
1) is mainly redemption but there are also PTQs and MOCS. I don't know what else could be done in PTQs and MOCS. Those events already attract a lot of players and if the number of PTQs increases, the number of players in the PT also increases so there's a limit on how many they can do. As for MOCS, the only thing that really needs an improvment is choosing the promos better. They should be cards that are currently very high (Liliana of the Veil, Wasteland, etc) and clearly need more copies in the system. They should not be Birds, Elesh Norns and Vengevines. This doesn't increase the value of packs but at least it gives a better EV to the events (if you are able to sell the card for 30 tix, every QP is worth 2 tix, maybe more because being able to play the events has value but also maybe less because getting 14 doesn't do anything). But if they actually want things to get better for real, there is no way around it: they have to redude the redemption fees. Maybe not to $5 but to $10 or $15 at most.
2) There is a lot to improve in many ways. And it's not gonna change soon. I think they need to start by changing their overall atittude towards the players and start treating us like paying costumers, because that's what we are and in many cases they treat us like we will stay in MTGO no matter what. I won't talk about what I think is needed because that would be very long but having a better program overall would bring in more players, everyone would have more trust in MTGO and it would affect prices in a good way. If the numer of players increased significantly, the online-paper connection (mainly the redemption) would matter less, because people would have more reasons to want their cards online and not in paper.
tl;dr: Start by allowing Releases to be joined with packs and bring back one event that takes only packs. Follow it up by reducing the redemption fees in the following set and as soon as possible. Improve MTGO and treat players better.
I lost a match to Tom Guevin in a PTQ because I just said "Go" without attacking first. I was nervous, I knew of him because he was an early pro tour regular.
Stuff happens. As long as you're not making the same mistakes over and over, it's no big deal.
Honestly, I think Abzan has a very strong core of cards that survive rotation. Additionally, both Languish and Nissa look like they'll potentially slot in nicely, especially Nissa once BFZ (presumably) adds enemy fetches and lets you play a more basic-heavy manabase.
Yeah, and the people who laughed at you have never made a mistake or misplay ever before, right? If it makes you feel any better, I once tried to counter a supreme verdict...in Legacy. Another time I kept a card on top with Serum Visions and then cracked a fetch right after.
You have made excellent points, I think you have hit the nail on the head.
However I must note one point: In my G/W Devotion deck I run 2 x Arbor Colossos main and 2 x Arbor Collossus board. I can assure you that I didn't have many problems with Dragons being lobbed at me :)
In my experience with this meta RG is superior to GW Devotion. Too many Dromoka's Commands to rely on Mastery of the Unseen. GW can drive up some crazy life totals and make really Nast ground stalls but with almost every popular deck lobbing Dragons at you, it's tough to get enough of a cushion to distance yourself.
Plus let's consider what you're ramping into. RG can throw almost all the same threats out early as GW can, plus RG has Xenagos, the Reveller for even more ramp and a much better early game. Add in Atarka and all Reds removal (GW is limited in that department) and I belive that in most meta games this RG devo would be superior to the current GW devotion. Without the Dragons it might be closer.
GW is weak to many of the same cards as RG. So there's not a huge difference in side board plans against them. All the desk have devotion hate.
The one thing GW has going in its favor is surprise. Take it into an 8 player or daily and most players won't be well practiced against it.
My first ever sanction tournament, in 1998 I believe (I really can't remember for sure), I had whatever unmatched basics I could find. In those were some Snow-covered lands, and the judge told me that I couldn't play those in standard (which was type 2 at the time). They didn't do anything, but I felt pretty bad. I'd keep all snow lands in your modern binder from now on!
Sweet article, your stuff is always entertaining. For some reason, I never really insert any humor into my articles. It's odd, because in person I make jokes all the time. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed yourself in the time that you got to spend there, and I'm sorry about your pet.
Paul, thanks. I knew at least some folks would get it.
Jay, it was a total embarrassment. Five groups of players chimed in, some laughed, three different judges came over... It was a mess. Too bad, too because if I could have won my first two matches I would have definitely considered this a success.
Plains heck yes. I'm going to try this again but I have to sell some cards first. Standard is so expensive. I mean I knew that going in but now it hits me that if I really want to continue I have some hard choices to make.
So what do y'all think I should do for the new series?
Thanks Marcus for your comment, it makes total sense.
Anyone else, do you have any views on whether RG Devotion is stronger right now than GW Devotion (having regard to what you perceive to be the current meta on Magic Online).
In short, the question is: Which of the two decks has a higher chance of winning a Standard Daily 4-0, and why?
Oops, I have already asked you a question and blown my cover haha, so I will just come right out and ask you!
In your opinion, do you believe that Green Red Devotion OR Green White Devotion (for example, the one which Brad Nelson played in the Standard Super League) has a better overall matchup in the Magic Online metagame right now? This is a really difficult question since there are at least 10 competitive decks circulating on Magic Online, but perhaps if you could comment on maybe the Top 4 matchups (Esper Dragons, Atarka Red, Abzan Aggro and perhaps the GR Devotion vs GW Devotion match).
Does anyone else who has experience with either GR Devotion or GW Devotion have any thoughts on these 4 matchups which I mentioned above?
My contribution is this: In my experience, GW Devotion can handle control decks better than GR Devotion, largely due to the Mastery of the Unseen. This card is a big thorn in the side for Esper Dragons, for example, especially when the G/W Devotion player is on the play.
Many thanks,
Michelle
(By the way, I finally remembered my password for this site PureMTG. I had forgotten it for weeks. Then a Eureka moment occurred and the penny finally dropped from the sky. Now I will join in discussions rather than just read). :)
Really stinks to hear about your pet, that being said it is good to hear that things are ok as of now. I was following coverage most of the day because I had some friends in attendance as well. When I saw you only had 3 points and it never changed I was saddened. All that prep did not go to waste though. I scrubbed out my first GP and can not wait to do more events even if it just large tourneys in the area. I have made the switch to Abzan and as usual you can hit me up online.
If you already have most of the cards for Grixis Twin, then go with that. Any Twin build is a lot of fun and not just because of the free wins you can get from it, but also how the deck plays. These Twin decks can switch gears pretty easily and become more control, which is another nice archetype I enjoy playing. Build Grixis Twin and you're not far off from also having Grixis Delver, so that's also a plus!
Thank God! For a minute there I thought you hated me or something. lol
Gotcha, thanks. I had assumed that Twin ran 2 Tasigurs and 2 Anglers. But I guess there's no room for Thought Scours, making the deck unable to support 4 Snapcasters and 4 Delve creatures. I think, though, that if I branch out to Twin I'll just build Grixis since I already have Chapin's control list built and Goyfs plus the green duals are a significant financial commitment on top of what I'd already need to buy.
I forgot to add the emoticon for "I'm kidding" :) Maybe though if you added more green cards and called it "Green Lantern" then it would be ok!
Lantern Control!? Oh, man, I'd rather saw my foot off, shoot it, and then sew it back on then play that deck... Let me see if I can get the cards. Maybe you'll see some videos from me in the near future. But if any one complains to me in the daily then I'm going to tell them to take it up with Islandswamp!
I've played Grixis Twin and liked it. I don't think it's a bad deck, but I just prefer Tarmo Twin over it. Goyf does have a slight advantage over Tasigur, which is Tasigur is legendary. Grixis Twin usually runs two Tasigurs and no Anglers. Grixis Delver is the deck that you'll most likely see Angler, not Twin. Another thing I like about Tarmo is that Gitaxian Probe gives us information and draws a card, enabling us to dig a little deeper for a combo piece. Inquisition doesn't dig. K Command is pretty sweet, no argument from me there, and all Grixis Twin is doing is replacing Roast for Terminate. The decks are very similar and your goal with either deck is the same. It mostly just comes down to personal preference.
What advantage does Tarmo Twin have over Grixis right now? I'm by no means a Modern expert, having just started playing the format last week, but it seems like Tasigur/Angler are more resilient than Goyf and Terminate, IoK, and K Command outclass anything green brings to the table.
And I hope you neve do! Yes that's the plan but it may not always be on time. Same w hornet queen. I used to play a lot of green devotion before Khans. I always struggled with fliers when I splashed white even with the colossus.
I player GW for a few weeks and found it to be a good to great deck. Just the RG is better right now. That could. change.
Oh abzan will always be fine. It's really just GB splash white. I'll always be a GB player at heart from my Pod days. My problem is not so much abzan becoming bad as it is paying for any new paper cards until the house sells. I'm probably going to try one more RL event before rotation and the. Hunker down to chase MOCS which I could in theory dedicate my time to.
Yeah it just seemed like a completely bone headed mistake. Should have been obvious. Plus it cost a game and a chance to sideboard even though I hadn't seen his cards I figure without the mistake I'd have had maybe a fighting chance against devotion.
Defnitely not a mistake I d repeat. For certain. I guess in the end I guess it was a free mistake because I had to drop anyways. The win would have meant nothing. Well except pride.
Thanks for the sympathy guys!
Being the selfish limited player that I am, I quite like the cheap pack prices. If limited players are where Wizards makes most of their money, why would they want to do something that messes with us? And, the more of us there are cracking open packs in limited, the more that drives down the prices for singles.
I don't see writers complain that singles are too cheap and that Wizards needs to do something to drive up those prices.
You should ask your readers for deck suggestions some time. I did that, and it was interesting.
I vote for Lantern Control!
I played this deck briefly before selling all my Modern staples to buy into Legacy. If I did start to play Modern again, the decks I'd want to play would be RUG Twin, Scapeshift, Tron, or perhaps Jund. Probably a deck with blue in it. I never got to cast Cryptic Command, and I want to try it some day.
I love a good glass cannon deck. I don't need any convincing to sleeve up glass cannon decks! :)
There is something capriciously fun about saying to an opponent: "Hey Tier 1 Opponent! You got an answer to THIS?!" and then you proceed to throw everything in his face and ask him to deal with the mess! :)
For example, it was a golden moment when Josh Utter Leyton (Jund) was defeated by Duke Reid (Bogles) in the semi-finals of the Magic World Championship.
The 3 tix floor on pack value is out of question (as are some of the other solutions) for several reasons. It would lose Wizards a lot of money. Even if they did it so that it starts only in the following set, it would decrease the tix sales because it would be a new way to add tix to the system. Wizards would sell less tix and the secondary market tix value would also decrease. This meant that while we were getting paid 3 tix per booster, those tix would be worth less than before. Sure, the entry fee would decrease as well but everyone's collections would be worth less and cashing out or selling tix for money would be much worse. This would end up being bad for everyone.
Using boosters as entry fee might also create gambling laws problems. In limited events those boosters are opened but if you could use them in constructed events it meant you were paying boosters to try to win more and that might some problems, especially because MTGO is played Worldwide and it's really hard to be safe from gambling laws everywhere. However, there is actually a place where this can be used. I remember playing Release events where I could join with 6 packs + 4 or 6 tix. The value of the packs wouldn't decrease much during the release weeks. Now, most people are paying 24 tix and trading whatever packs they win and valuable cards for more tix so they can play more of those. This makes the pack value decrease much more during those weeks. Keep the Pre Releases with store bought items + tix for those who really can't wait for the new set but let thos who wait play the Releases with packs. It would also help if they brought back the 4packs sealed that allowed you to join with only boosters because that was a great booster sinker.
There are two ways to do Generic boosters: either make you choose which booster you want it to be before trading/opening/entering a limited event with it or allowing you to trade it as a generic booster (it's mainly the trading that is important because turning it into pack X and entering an event or using it directly in place of pack X is basivally the same). If you are allowed to trade it as a generic booster, it would always retain a slightly higher value than the most expensive non generic standard legal pack. But we don't really know what effects would this have in the long run. After about 2 years, every standard pack would be from a generic booster era and it's not easy to predict how that would work, especially because people could hold the boosters for years and the system could end up having a pack flood when people finally decided to cash out as prices weren't getting better. Obviously they could limited how each generic booster could be converted, but that would end up being very confusing.
Most solutions, are very similar to having a short blanket and pushing it to cover your feet while uncovering your chest. Sure, your feet might be colder than everything else but eventually your chest will be colder. And while some things actually help a bit in the short term, they change nothing in the long term and they should only be used while a permanent solution isn't found/implemented.
The are only two ways to permanently fix these problems:
1) improve the online-paper connection
2) improve MTGO
1) is mainly redemption but there are also PTQs and MOCS. I don't know what else could be done in PTQs and MOCS. Those events already attract a lot of players and if the number of PTQs increases, the number of players in the PT also increases so there's a limit on how many they can do. As for MOCS, the only thing that really needs an improvment is choosing the promos better. They should be cards that are currently very high (Liliana of the Veil, Wasteland, etc) and clearly need more copies in the system. They should not be Birds, Elesh Norns and Vengevines. This doesn't increase the value of packs but at least it gives a better EV to the events (if you are able to sell the card for 30 tix, every QP is worth 2 tix, maybe more because being able to play the events has value but also maybe less because getting 14 doesn't do anything). But if they actually want things to get better for real, there is no way around it: they have to redude the redemption fees. Maybe not to $5 but to $10 or $15 at most.
2) There is a lot to improve in many ways. And it's not gonna change soon. I think they need to start by changing their overall atittude towards the players and start treating us like paying costumers, because that's what we are and in many cases they treat us like we will stay in MTGO no matter what. I won't talk about what I think is needed because that would be very long but having a better program overall would bring in more players, everyone would have more trust in MTGO and it would affect prices in a good way. If the numer of players increased significantly, the online-paper connection (mainly the redemption) would matter less, because people would have more reasons to want their cards online and not in paper.
tl;dr: Start by allowing Releases to be joined with packs and bring back one event that takes only packs. Follow it up by reducing the redemption fees in the following set and as soon as possible. Improve MTGO and treat players better.
I lost a match to Tom Guevin in a PTQ because I just said "Go" without attacking first. I was nervous, I knew of him because he was an early pro tour regular.
Stuff happens. As long as you're not making the same mistakes over and over, it's no big deal.
Honestly, I think Abzan has a very strong core of cards that survive rotation. Additionally, both Languish and Nissa look like they'll potentially slot in nicely, especially Nissa once BFZ (presumably) adds enemy fetches and lets you play a more basic-heavy manabase.
Yeah, and the people who laughed at you have never made a mistake or misplay ever before, right? If it makes you feel any better, I once tried to counter a supreme verdict...in Legacy. Another time I kept a card on top with Serum Visions and then cracked a fetch right after.
Thanks CalmLittleBuddy for your insights.
You have made excellent points, I think you have hit the nail on the head.
However I must note one point: In my G/W Devotion deck I run 2 x Arbor Colossos main and 2 x Arbor Collossus board. I can assure you that I didn't have many problems with Dragons being lobbed at me :)
In my experience with this meta RG is superior to GW Devotion. Too many Dromoka's Commands to rely on Mastery of the Unseen. GW can drive up some crazy life totals and make really Nast ground stalls but with almost every popular deck lobbing Dragons at you, it's tough to get enough of a cushion to distance yourself.
Plus let's consider what you're ramping into. RG can throw almost all the same threats out early as GW can, plus RG has Xenagos, the Reveller for even more ramp and a much better early game. Add in Atarka and all Reds removal (GW is limited in that department) and I belive that in most meta games this RG devo would be superior to the current GW devotion. Without the Dragons it might be closer.
GW is weak to many of the same cards as RG. So there's not a huge difference in side board plans against them. All the desk have devotion hate.
The one thing GW has going in its favor is surprise. Take it into an 8 player or daily and most players won't be well practiced against it.
Just my take.
My first ever sanction tournament, in 1998 I believe (I really can't remember for sure), I had whatever unmatched basics I could find. In those were some Snow-covered lands, and the judge told me that I couldn't play those in standard (which was type 2 at the time). They didn't do anything, but I felt pretty bad. I'd keep all snow lands in your modern binder from now on!
Sweet article, your stuff is always entertaining. For some reason, I never really insert any humor into my articles. It's odd, because in person I make jokes all the time. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed yourself in the time that you got to spend there, and I'm sorry about your pet.
Thanks for your thought everyone!!!
Paul, thanks. I knew at least some folks would get it.
Jay, it was a total embarrassment. Five groups of players chimed in, some laughed, three different judges came over... It was a mess. Too bad, too because if I could have won my first two matches I would have definitely considered this a success.
Plains heck yes. I'm going to try this again but I have to sell some cards first. Standard is so expensive. I mean I knew that going in but now it hits me that if I really want to continue I have some hard choices to make.
So what do y'all think I should do for the new series?
Thanks Marcus for your comment, it makes total sense.
Anyone else, do you have any views on whether RG Devotion is stronger right now than GW Devotion (having regard to what you perceive to be the current meta on Magic Online).
In short, the question is: Which of the two decks has a higher chance of winning a Standard Daily 4-0, and why?
Thanks,
Michelle
Thanks for this helpful article, I loved it.
Marcus, can I ask you a question?
Oops, I have already asked you a question and blown my cover haha, so I will just come right out and ask you!
In your opinion, do you believe that Green Red Devotion OR Green White Devotion (for example, the one which Brad Nelson played in the Standard Super League) has a better overall matchup in the Magic Online metagame right now? This is a really difficult question since there are at least 10 competitive decks circulating on Magic Online, but perhaps if you could comment on maybe the Top 4 matchups (Esper Dragons, Atarka Red, Abzan Aggro and perhaps the GR Devotion vs GW Devotion match).
Does anyone else who has experience with either GR Devotion or GW Devotion have any thoughts on these 4 matchups which I mentioned above?
My contribution is this: In my experience, GW Devotion can handle control decks better than GR Devotion, largely due to the Mastery of the Unseen. This card is a big thorn in the side for Esper Dragons, for example, especially when the G/W Devotion player is on the play.
Many thanks,
Michelle
(By the way, I finally remembered my password for this site PureMTG. I had forgotten it for weeks. Then a Eureka moment occurred and the penny finally dropped from the sky. Now I will join in discussions rather than just read). :)
Really stinks to hear about your pet, that being said it is good to hear that things are ok as of now. I was following coverage most of the day because I had some friends in attendance as well. When I saw you only had 3 points and it never changed I was saddened. All that prep did not go to waste though. I scrubbed out my first GP and can not wait to do more events even if it just large tourneys in the area. I have made the switch to Abzan and as usual you can hit me up online.