AJ as Paul has said and as i have also said there have been enough write ups on here already. I just felt that they should and could have done so much better.
I have 100s living end deck too, i would suggest replacing All Hallow's Eve with Pyrrhic Revival and perhaps Wonder and Anger for evasion+haste - these two cards need more sac effects like Diamond Valley or Corpse Connoisseur which i consider all-star for any reanimator deck :]
Another card i would definitely play is Sawtooth Loon because with all those cycling I was topdecking Living End quite often.
That is much closer to how the actual meta looks like and the oath comparison was really nifty.
Gj sir. I enjoyed that. The one small cavet i have is the general lumping of decks, but for not following the format you did more then an adnmiral job:)
There are two Yavimaya elders in the duel deck as well (with new art too). He's been a 10-15tic common out of the commander decks, so this should let some people pick him up at a more reasonable price.
Forgot to say what a great article it was, your last article made me try out vamps (with success) then i saw this article and you managed to go one better. Keep up the good work:)
Knight of Sursi is proving quite valuable as of late...I'd have never thought it, but since most anything that flies is a 2/2 or a 2/3, this thing is a house, and helps vs topdecks as you have a bigger airforce with these - try and view them as a one drop
I've also seen filegott and talked to him as he tuned his reanimator human tribal deck, which he talked about wanting to break the format with, with as many degenerate combos as possible. I thought both were creative and put a lot of effort into their designs.
^^^^this isnt what we are looking for, the majority involved arent trying to play all the degenerate combos and trying to "break" the format. For the most part we are just enjoying ourselves. Which most people are failing to see.
All players play without sideboards, it’s not an advantage or disadvantage to anyone to not having a sideboard, in terms of competition. It’s a player’s responsibility to predict what decks they will face and adjust their decks accordingly, assuming they want to win certain match-ups. Pyroblasts maindeck if you have trouble against Force of Will and Daze perhaps. This is just one example; there are obviously numerous other possibilities. Players have to actually test matches if they want their decks to do well. And just because it might not be easy is not a viable excuse.
Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the host to have a clear outline of the rules and what is acceptable or not acceptable so the players know. It wouldn’t have been your place to tell us we were in the wrong. (Which at the time we were not in accordance with the current tournament rules)
This notion that money cards are unbeatable is ludicrous. How many $20 burn decks have 3-1 or 4-0ed Classic Daily Events as of late? There are plenty of budget options that can compete with the top tier decks, whether players choose to acknowledge this or not. (Some of which were actually banned from this specific event oddly enough)
Greyes3: As a side note, I would encourage this event to go in a more competitive direction. Classic Tribal has a lot of broken plays, which players can and should adept to, as opposed to crying "ban" or "unfun". Filegott beat me in the finals because he wasn't screaming about how broken Aether Vial is, but because his Lavamancers and Pyroblasts were blasting apart my army, and because he was prepared for the match-up.
Well Im sorry too say but it wont be moving that direction any time soon. Im not hosting something I cant even afford to play in. If you want to run a more competitve "everythings an existing classic deck thrust into a tribal shell" format then go ahead. Though that was the exact reason wizards stopped running events is because the majority of players were turned off by this and quit attending. Im sure you can find plaenty of hyper-competitive players to have a separate tournament with and then you'll have your super spike event and we can have our fun casual event.
ok i never saw the Iona's or the doomed necros just the trinkets so i thought it was basically Monored Painters with that small splash if i had seen the other colors in our match then i would have thought differently
You make an interesting point concerning upping the ante with the casual PRE. First of all, without a sideboard you are facing potluck to begin with. Yes it is possible for 8 people to show using vials and fows etc but the NORM is more creative and diverse. Even the harder to beat decks tend to be rogue rather than cookie cutter.
Filegot's deck was metagamed to beat yours but it is not something that is easy to predict in a format where really any tribe can show up, good or bad. Generally the rule is: build with preparation for everything but expect nothing. Even so if your deck is full of answers for everything you wont be doing much else and heaven help you if you don't draw the answers on time vs these fast clock decks.
And you are right. Someone should have taken you aside afterwards and said something. My apologies for not being that someone. I did think about it so I should have. That said, some of the comments made in chat caused me think that you guys knew full well what you were doing and did not care. And yes several people have played Vial Fish before though yours had the money cards theirs did not. The hidden counterspells make a huge difference in whether a deck is beatable. It is one thing knowing you are facing counters. But FoW and Daze change the playing field quite a bit. And add to that the need to get rid of the vial early or stall the assault some how and the match up is unfavorable with a lot of decks.
As far as adapting to the format, I don't play classic because it is full of broken plays that require a highly competitive deck with expensive cards to get through even in casual play. If I were to play classic it would be because I was running a full sideboard with the correct answers to the worst combos/difficulties.
Yeah I as I said in my article filegot's deck was pretty original. I didn't like that it ran the painter/stone combo but as he himself said it was hardly usual to get the turn 1/2 kill. Normally it is slow and requires some set up. Grim Lavamancer really makes those early turns though.
Next time, why not come to us and talk about any potential problems instead of posting all of this for us to find out a week later? "Hey guys this event is supposed to be a little more casual. Could you play something a little less competitive?" (even though I was informed players had previously played decks similar to the one I piloted in events prior) I don't think it was any of our intentions to come off as rude, and as a number of the players we played against have attested to, but if it was construed as such, it was certainly not our intent.
As a side note, I would encourage this event to go in a more competitive direction. Classic Tribal has a lot of broken plays, which players can and should adept to, as opposed to crying "ban" or "unfun". Filegott beat me in the finals because he wasn't screaming about how broken Aether Vial is, but because his Lavamancers and Pyroblasts were blasting apart my army, and because he was prepared for the match-up.
I believe he ran doomed necros in there as well, on top of the loyal retainers and trinket mages, so that makes it a 4-color deck at least, not mono-red (like the Imperial Painter build), if anyone's interested. At least I thought it was pretty creative (creatively abusive too, lol), and I was surprised when he told me he even got a turn 1 kill with it.
It is rogue. Classic T1 Merfolk with Jitte taken out to become tribal legal is close to an insignificant change such that I wouldn't label it "rogue", but a deck with painter's servant, grindstone, Bazaar, Iona, Loyal Retainers, Trinket Mage, all in the same deck, that kind of mix is not something you see in Classic or Tribal. The ideas individually (using painter and grindstone together, for instance) might not all have been new, but the deck itself was and the way the combos were incorporated into a tribal legal deck were. I have seen and spoken to filegott as he was making/testing and putting all that effort into the deck for your tourney, and I highly doubt he copied it from a netdeck.
I understand that they might be downers for what was meant as a "semi"-competitive event, so I'm not going to argue that point, but I do think credit should be given where credit is due.
See it is that kind of statement that characterizes the rudeness in the chat: Crying as if to imply that anyone who has a gripe is automatically immature for expressing it. If it isn't legitimate why be rude here too? You prove the point made without any outside help.
It might have been prejudiced but the immediate thought I had was the one I expressed if somewhat sarcastically as you say: "What are PE/DE players doing in this causal PRE?" I don't think there was anything so much as unwelcoming as questioning. In other words "Why'd you come, are you here for fun? or to be a fun-spoiling shark?" Everyone is welcome at these things, however, some attitudes aren't and that includes coming only to be rude and upsetting.
The rules were clearly stated in the chat prior to the event and no one broke those rules. Anyone that is crying over this silly tribal tournament has a sad life.
ummm well in that case....enjoy yourself. We will get by just fine without you. Trust me its no skin off of my back. Oh and don't come back either... ;)
CaptainObvious: I played against 2 of the "sharks" and they were nothing but friendly.
Lol really? you played against two of them? thats actually quite impossible. Since its single elim. And neither of them lost until the semi finals and there they played each other. So either you are a really really bad troll, or you are so inconsequential that i dont even remember who you were. Either way, Have fun doing whatever you want to do online. And if you dont like it oh well
It would be more interesting if you shared your name but thats not important.
On to your points which I actually agree with I also run lots of high price cards in my decks maybe not up to FoW standard but I do run fetch lands and duals most weeks and I've never had anyone make a comment about them.
I also live by the same rules if I have good cards I will play them thats part of the game.
I also played one of the so called sharks and I also found them to be friendly.
Paul/Winter.Wolf, about the rudeness, I read a bit into the pasted convos, and it seemed to me like most of it was casual bantering, and let's be honest, at the beginning of the tourney, unprovoked, you started with a pretty sarcastic remark yourself, "lot of team rocket here, I didn't realize this was a big money event." Harmless, sure, but the tone is a bit unwelcoming/prejudgmental. Made it sound like certain people weren't welcome even before the event started.
So in the end, the other article on this topic was mistaken, and merfolk didn't even win, and I hear from the 2nd place player that filegott did a great job meta'ing against merfolk, with maindeck pyroblasts as one example.
I guess a meta is starting to develop, and things are starting to balance out. One observant player noticed that merfolk would be a problem, and decided to maindeck pyroblasts. I really don't see much of a problem with certain deck types being overpowered. From what I've seen and heard from filegott about his deck (albeit, before the tourney, so he may have changed it since then), it's rogue, and not a classic netdeck you'd be able to find on deckcheck or classicquarter. So effort, observation, and innovation won out in the end.
It now just seems like the main complaint is about big money cards being used in the tourney. Those can be beaten (pyroblasts don't cost much), with a little research if people were intent on winning.
AJ as Paul has said and as i have also said there have been enough write ups on here already. I just felt that they should and could have done so much better.
I have 100s living end deck too, i would suggest replacing All Hallow's Eve with Pyrrhic Revival and perhaps Wonder and Anger for evasion+haste - these two cards need more sac effects like Diamond Valley or Corpse Connoisseur which i consider all-star for any reanimator deck :]
Another card i would definitely play is Sawtooth Loon because with all those cycling I was topdecking Living End quite often.
That is much closer to how the actual meta looks like and the oath comparison was really nifty.
Gj sir. I enjoyed that. The one small cavet i have is the general lumping of decks, but for not following the format you did more then an adnmiral job:)
There are two Yavimaya elders in the duel deck as well (with new art too). He's been a 10-15tic common out of the commander decks, so this should let some people pick him up at a more reasonable price.
Forgot to say what a great article it was, your last article made me try out vamps (with success) then i saw this article and you managed to go one better. Keep up the good work:)
Knight of Sursi is proving quite valuable as of late...I'd have never thought it, but since most anything that flies is a 2/2 or a 2/3, this thing is a house, and helps vs topdecks as you have a bigger airforce with these - try and view them as a one drop
That's fine. Just be more clear when you write the rules for your events. ie) No Force of Will.
I've also seen filegott and talked to him as he tuned his reanimator human tribal deck, which he talked about wanting to break the format with, with as many degenerate combos as possible. I thought both were creative and put a lot of effort into their designs.
^^^^this isnt what we are looking for, the majority involved arent trying to play all the degenerate combos and trying to "break" the format. For the most part we are just enjoying ourselves. Which most people are failing to see.
All players play without sideboards, it’s not an advantage or disadvantage to anyone to not having a sideboard, in terms of competition. It’s a player’s responsibility to predict what decks they will face and adjust their decks accordingly, assuming they want to win certain match-ups. Pyroblasts maindeck if you have trouble against Force of Will and Daze perhaps. This is just one example; there are obviously numerous other possibilities. Players have to actually test matches if they want their decks to do well. And just because it might not be easy is not a viable excuse.
Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the host to have a clear outline of the rules and what is acceptable or not acceptable so the players know. It wouldn’t have been your place to tell us we were in the wrong. (Which at the time we were not in accordance with the current tournament rules)
This notion that money cards are unbeatable is ludicrous. How many $20 burn decks have 3-1 or 4-0ed Classic Daily Events as of late? There are plenty of budget options that can compete with the top tier decks, whether players choose to acknowledge this or not. (Some of which were actually banned from this specific event oddly enough)
Greyes3: As a side note, I would encourage this event to go in a more competitive direction. Classic Tribal has a lot of broken plays, which players can and should adept to, as opposed to crying "ban" or "unfun". Filegott beat me in the finals because he wasn't screaming about how broken Aether Vial is, but because his Lavamancers and Pyroblasts were blasting apart my army, and because he was prepared for the match-up.
Well Im sorry too say but it wont be moving that direction any time soon. Im not hosting something I cant even afford to play in. If you want to run a more competitve "everythings an existing classic deck thrust into a tribal shell" format then go ahead. Though that was the exact reason wizards stopped running events is because the majority of players were turned off by this and quit attending. Im sure you can find plaenty of hyper-competitive players to have a separate tournament with and then you'll have your super spike event and we can have our fun casual event.
ok i never saw the Iona's or the doomed necros just the trinkets so i thought it was basically Monored Painters with that small splash if i had seen the other colors in our match then i would have thought differently
You make an interesting point concerning upping the ante with the casual PRE. First of all, without a sideboard you are facing potluck to begin with. Yes it is possible for 8 people to show using vials and fows etc but the NORM is more creative and diverse. Even the harder to beat decks tend to be rogue rather than cookie cutter.
Filegot's deck was metagamed to beat yours but it is not something that is easy to predict in a format where really any tribe can show up, good or bad. Generally the rule is: build with preparation for everything but expect nothing. Even so if your deck is full of answers for everything you wont be doing much else and heaven help you if you don't draw the answers on time vs these fast clock decks.
And you are right. Someone should have taken you aside afterwards and said something. My apologies for not being that someone. I did think about it so I should have. That said, some of the comments made in chat caused me think that you guys knew full well what you were doing and did not care. And yes several people have played Vial Fish before though yours had the money cards theirs did not. The hidden counterspells make a huge difference in whether a deck is beatable. It is one thing knowing you are facing counters. But FoW and Daze change the playing field quite a bit. And add to that the need to get rid of the vial early or stall the assault some how and the match up is unfavorable with a lot of decks.
As far as adapting to the format, I don't play classic because it is full of broken plays that require a highly competitive deck with expensive cards to get through even in casual play. If I were to play classic it would be because I was running a full sideboard with the correct answers to the worst combos/difficulties.
Yeah I as I said in my article filegot's deck was pretty original. I didn't like that it ran the painter/stone combo but as he himself said it was hardly usual to get the turn 1/2 kill. Normally it is slow and requires some set up. Grim Lavamancer really makes those early turns though.
Next time, why not come to us and talk about any potential problems instead of posting all of this for us to find out a week later? "Hey guys this event is supposed to be a little more casual. Could you play something a little less competitive?" (even though I was informed players had previously played decks similar to the one I piloted in events prior) I don't think it was any of our intentions to come off as rude, and as a number of the players we played against have attested to, but if it was construed as such, it was certainly not our intent.
As a side note, I would encourage this event to go in a more competitive direction. Classic Tribal has a lot of broken plays, which players can and should adept to, as opposed to crying "ban" or "unfun". Filegott beat me in the finals because he wasn't screaming about how broken Aether Vial is, but because his Lavamancers and Pyroblasts were blasting apart my army, and because he was prepared for the match-up.
I believe he ran doomed necros in there as well, on top of the loyal retainers and trinket mages, so that makes it a 4-color deck at least, not mono-red (like the Imperial Painter build), if anyone's interested. At least I thought it was pretty creative (creatively abusive too, lol), and I was surprised when he told me he even got a turn 1 kill with it.
It is rogue. Classic T1 Merfolk with Jitte taken out to become tribal legal is close to an insignificant change such that I wouldn't label it "rogue", but a deck with painter's servant, grindstone, Bazaar, Iona, Loyal Retainers, Trinket Mage, all in the same deck, that kind of mix is not something you see in Classic or Tribal. The ideas individually (using painter and grindstone together, for instance) might not all have been new, but the deck itself was and the way the combos were incorporated into a tribal legal deck were. I have seen and spoken to filegott as he was making/testing and putting all that effort into the deck for your tourney, and I highly doubt he copied it from a netdeck.
I understand that they might be downers for what was meant as a "semi"-competitive event, so I'm not going to argue that point, but I do think credit should be given where credit is due.
All I read on this page is that Merfolk won (greyes3 deck) which it did not. This whole article is discredited. Ban Team Rocket!
See it is that kind of statement that characterizes the rudeness in the chat: Crying as if to imply that anyone who has a gripe is automatically immature for expressing it. If it isn't legitimate why be rude here too? You prove the point made without any outside help.
It might have been prejudiced but the immediate thought I had was the one I expressed if somewhat sarcastically as you say: "What are PE/DE players doing in this causal PRE?" I don't think there was anything so much as unwelcoming as questioning. In other words "Why'd you come, are you here for fun? or to be a fun-spoiling shark?" Everyone is welcome at these things, however, some attitudes aren't and that includes coming only to be rude and upsetting.
The rules were clearly stated in the chat prior to the event and no one broke those rules. Anyone that is crying over this silly tribal tournament has a sad life.
he basically played monored Painters Servant...its not really all that rogue, unless you count him having to substitute things rogue...
ummm well in that case....enjoy yourself. We will get by just fine without you. Trust me its no skin off of my back. Oh and don't come back either... ;)
CaptainObvious: I played against 2 of the "sharks" and they were nothing but friendly.
Lol really? you played against two of them? thats actually quite impossible. Since its single elim. And neither of them lost until the semi finals and there they played each other. So either you are a really really bad troll, or you are so inconsequential that i dont even remember who you were. Either way, Have fun doing whatever you want to do online. And if you dont like it oh well
Interesting post I nearly missed this.
It would be more interesting if you shared your name but thats not important.
On to your points which I actually agree with I also run lots of high price cards in my decks maybe not up to FoW standard but I do run fetch lands and duals most weeks and I've never had anyone make a comment about them.
I also live by the same rules if I have good cards I will play them thats part of the game.
I also played one of the so called sharks and I also found them to be friendly.
Paul/Winter.Wolf, about the rudeness, I read a bit into the pasted convos, and it seemed to me like most of it was casual bantering, and let's be honest, at the beginning of the tourney, unprovoked, you started with a pretty sarcastic remark yourself, "lot of team rocket here, I didn't realize this was a big money event." Harmless, sure, but the tone is a bit unwelcoming/prejudgmental. Made it sound like certain people weren't welcome even before the event started.
So in the end, the other article on this topic was mistaken, and merfolk didn't even win, and I hear from the 2nd place player that filegott did a great job meta'ing against merfolk, with maindeck pyroblasts as one example.
I guess a meta is starting to develop, and things are starting to balance out. One observant player noticed that merfolk would be a problem, and decided to maindeck pyroblasts. I really don't see much of a problem with certain deck types being overpowered. From what I've seen and heard from filegott about his deck (albeit, before the tourney, so he may have changed it since then), it's rogue, and not a classic netdeck you'd be able to find on deckcheck or classicquarter. So effort, observation, and innovation won out in the end.
It now just seems like the main complaint is about big money cards being used in the tourney. Those can be beaten (pyroblasts don't cost much), with a little research if people were intent on winning.