actually he have had issues where people off this site played those decks.
The very first week of the event Flippers_Giraffe ran HelmLine, the 2nd LE ran Painter's Servant and he has also run fish on occasion, though less powerful than normal due to a lack of daze and FoW. Heck I even ran Pauper Goblins one time to 2nd place. Though to be honest as a pauper deck i did not think it would perform as it did. However the thing is we didn't a)run these again or b)show up with three friends all packing identical fish lists either like we were PTQing the event. The people we all know here ran the decks once and quit. Ive seen the people in the event in question in other events...its what they do. In fact after running Painter's Servant LE said..."that was not even fun to be honest" And we may all be semi-competitive players but really is it necessary to be a douche just to win four tickets?
"I was a little hurt about it because as I saw it the three that came were rude, spiky and pretty much there to make a mockery of the whole thing. Or so it seemed to me."
that is more along the lines of what most people are thinking there is such little respect amongst players in casual, not just a tourny setting, but everywhere
I appreciate your comments. You are right, it does take lots of work putting all the data together. I don't know this as fact, but I am assuming many more Tarmos were cracked than FOWs. Once Tarmo rotates out, which won't be for awhile, it will surely drop in price imo. I'm just glad I got my Tarmos for 10 each a long time ago, also got my playset of FOW for 45 (15, 15,10,5).
The nice thing about Legacy is that there are plenty of decks you can play that don't run FOW. I am just finishing up the 3rd "spell" part and my final article will focus around non-blue running Legacy decks.
Understood, but it does work...the counter spells are very important, and diluting the cards to fit in another color look great on paper...but are bad in testing...I admit some powerful builds - depending on meta, with Black/Blue - I've presented the pro's/cons above. BTW- - I have both R.Trap AND Relic. Not saying Dredge is almost an auto loss first game, just that this deck is REALLY good vs shift and Hexmage/depths etc.., which was the point :)
Any thoughts on Shambling Shell? It is a nice dredger and packs quite a punch, also has a cute interaction with Festercreep. Problem is what to take out...
If I challenged you to a match and ran Fish, I'd kill you with Dandan. If I were running Merfolk, they'd be green. Tribal is my playground: I don't see the point in rehashing well-trodden ground when I can consistently do well doing what I want to do. And tell your feelings to cheer up: I've got far too thick a skin to be annoyed at valid and accurate criticism.
These lists are extremely useful, again the second installment is another great resource. I have more or less done similar work on my own and it takes a long, long time. I appreciate how you break it down given an initial investment in the top 5, what costs are incurred from there.
I wish with the lands article you had included the price of getting the fourth tropical island for example when running a list that has four (not a big deal).
I prioritized getting my wastelands based on your last article and I think got them for around 10.25/each, it felt like I was bleeding tix. An uncommon in a set that you can draft?
I wish I had picked up all four 'goyf at 26 ugh...
I heard people are stock piling force of wills, if this is true I hope similar doesn't happen with 'goyf. Even better I wish WotC would pick its shots and reprint FOW.
2.) Daze
3.) Thoughtseize
4.) Swords or Path?
5.) Vial
I've seen many scapeshift players with two "cantrip" gaea's blessing in their boards to battle dredge. however... i'm also pretty sure you could easily run extirpate. If you're not hitting their keycards you can at least force them to shuffle and "Crap! Trap" to add insult to injury. extirpate can respond to the blessing trigger removing all copies and clearing the way. and you can use teachings to fetch PTE, Extirpate or Archive/ Ravenous Trap.
I've seen decent builds in esper colors, this however needs work.
"The very fact that it is a tournament where a prize is involved means that it is not casual."
I think Shard would disagree with you there. I at least was under the impression that a "casual competitive" atmosphere was what Shard was shooting for. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe there is no such animal.
I say that folks bringing tier one stuff to this event remind me of a guy gives out hard fouls at his office basketball league games.
Sure, its a tournament, and sure we all wanna "win". But it's a little tournament, with a little prize and I think Shard is quite justified in being pissed at guys bringing guns to his knife fights.
RE: the timing, I take full responsibility for my article. I knew Shard would be posting his but as they say "strike while the iron is hot" in reference to inspiration. So I wrote about my idea which you happen to dislike and I respect that.
What I don't respect is randomly bashing people in an event you don't even play in. No offense but none of the decks you have faced in casual have the power level of FOW/Daze/Vial full of fish. Yes there are some inevitable decks and Ive already mentioned to Flips and AJ that they should scale back when playing them in the casual room as the expectations are a lot lower there than elsewhere. HOWEVER, I would never expect ANYONE clans member or not to scale back from a tourney. I question the motives of anyone rolling through a dinky tourney knowing fullwell they won't see opposition of any value (though for the record both painter-stone deck guy and Markus and even Shard put up credable fights. As it should be.) But even if I question their motives I defend their right to play. That said I wish to see changes made to the format to make this kind of thing not an issue.
I was not angry. I was a little hurt about it because as I saw it the three that came were rude, spiky and pretty much there to make a mockery of the whole thing. Or so it seemed to me. Some of that was probably just youthful exuberance but to me it looked disrespectful. I also felt very badly for Shard who was enraged. I felt a bit angry on his behalf just for that reason.
But yes tourneys for prizes are anything goes, no holds barred etc. On the other hand a community building tourney is NOT the place to come shit on everyone.
I think you are the one who massively missed the point. And I call bs on that last paragraph.
I think it's quiet because the peanut gallery has already said what there is to be said about the various merits and shortcomings of this approach. If this were the *first* entry in the series...
I'll say this, no other color embodies the "this is sealed not draft" aspect of this series of articles. Survivalist when you can draft an ally deck and Nissa's Chosen when you can be near-monogreen are a completely different story.
I'd say the Vastwood Gorger, even if not at significant numbers, also underscores both the fact that sealed is slower and that this analysis doesn't take into account the impact of casting cost on the results. Disfigure may be the only relevant spell the person played on their mull to 5, stuck on 2 lands game. Every Vastwood Gorger represents someone who made it to six mana.
Thanks for the series, though, food for thought no matter how you slice it.
With cards like DoJ and the Ascension in his side board my assumption is plenty of games do get to turns 5+. But I definitely do see the merit of keeping the Lynxes and dropping another card to fit in the kitesail... maybe the skyfisher. The list seems to be lacking very many permanents I'd actually *want* to return to my hand.
No offense taken. As host you have every right to complain about the people involved in the tournament. My point was that, let's say LE, or AJ, or me, or any of the awesome people we have here at PureMTGO had shown up to the tournament and played Fish, Painter's Servant, Helmline, whatever, would you still be as mad? Cause I have played against some of the decks AJ and LE can come up with and they are infuriating, but it seems like those decks are ok because they are piloting them and I like those guys. I feel that the attack should be made on the deck (if it's broken) no matter who the pilot is. If AJ challenged me to a match and he ran Fish, I would most likely give him hell for it, not because I don't like him, but because I don't like the Fish deck.
Responding to the people above, I think they are agreeing with me, or my point was massively lost. My point being that this is a competitive format and by all means people should be able to run whatever they want. As I said, if I had 4 Vindicates you can bet your rear end I would be running them. I am all in favor of using power cards. I am NOT in favor of people getting mad at the format losing its "casual" nature. The very fact that it is a tournament where a prize is involved means that it is not casual. When I enter a tournament I play to win and that means I run the best cards I have at my disposal. Now where I might differ from others is that, if I had the cards to make the Fish deck, I would be running it all the time. Best cards means best cards no matter what other people think of them.
I like all of you guys and enjoy playing magic against you. I would never dream of purposely picking a fight with any of you. It even hurt my feelings to write that message.
I agree. These tournaments are designed to be high powered. If Tarmogoyfs are allowed in the format, why should I be guilted into using Grizzly Bears?
And it's not just about budget issues. The Casual play debate is a whole can of worms that I generally try to avoid.
A full set of Swords of the Meek AND Thopter Foundries are $5.40, and yet a few people were grumbling about me playing them in a deck with 3 rares total in it.
well coming back as ineligible is unfortunate though ive been able to pick him up in many online drafts as late as pick 8 or 9 sometimes. Though most times unless i'm heavy allies, he would go before the survivalist and probably the expedition as well
lol well actually the cards up there seem to be in a pretty reasonable order. There are sore thumb stickouts like a 3/3 for 5 beating scalable removal. This basically came out like the green common pick order.
No offense blau, but I must admit the way you are looking at only one weeks results is slightly skewed. and ask anyone of the regulars that do actually play in our events, none of them ever complain over decks like those. But when these same regulars are all annoyed that one clan brought 3-4 members and all ran classic combos and proven classic decks? yeah its annoying. And in Classic Tribal our decks are right in line with the average power level. I dont think one of those decks has a chance of taking down a Classic PE(no offense AJ or LE). UNlike oh lets see card for card lists of CLassic PE winning decks? Not to mention that if I don't like the tide is turning I have every right to get up in arms about it. Lets not forget just whose tournament it is. I started the idea, I approached MTGOTraders for sponsorship. Sadly this happens in every PRE I've either run or been a player of. It all starts out fun for a while then inevitably a group of spikes comes along and totally blows everything out of whack. The sad thing is there are PRE's out there for people like that. Go watch a Hater's Ball PRE...that is a cutthroat event by design. It's made for running high class tier 1 classic decks. This one isn't. If you don;t like that or my opinions, then too bad. As host I'm more concerned with the welfare of the event and the fun level it has for regular players who know who they are. Are the decks of regulars good? Well yeah look at some of our regulars. Are we all bringing HelmLine, Painter's Servant, and Tier One classic decks? Not even close.
I would have thought it would have done better. Just the other day, I came to the same conclusions you did, thinking faeries would be a great call -
I like the list, perhaps give it another go before calling it quits.
Your rundown on the "to-do' list for a deck is nice logical approach - additionally, thanks for posting such an honest report...always suspect when someone goes 8-0. etc.,
I'm also in the same boat as AJ I play to win and will use every card that is available to me within my budget.
I import all sorts of combos from other tier one classic, ext and Std decks and fit them snugly into a tribal theme. I also play off the wall decks as well.
I have one rule which is to try and never run the same deck twice so I can keep it interesting for those playing me and myself.
I must admit I'm fed up of seeing "fish" but I thought long and hard before responding and decided in the end let them bring their tier one decks I beat oath and the games I played the past weekend vs the winner using fish was very close indeed, I was kicked out in the first round but it makes you evaluate your deck and come back with some thing stronger next week.
This isnt a budget deck event its full on classic tribal and in classic you will get powerful cards and you will need to think of the answers to them while making your decks.
I wouldn't criticise Paul or Shard on timing: Events inspired both of them to write, with no inkling of what the other was doing.
On the matter of my decks being overpowered, I bloody well hope so! I put a lot of effort into these saturday tourneys, with the intention of winning them, on the understanding that there are vialfolk, vialblins, impdredge, et cetera, et cetera out there. Someone will always play something really nasty, and so I don't see it as wrong to innovate something nastier yet to match them.
I don't particularily want to analyse the latest classic decks to see what I can shoehorn in, but I quite happily look at the entire cardpool with an open mind and the full resources of my collection.
Yes, my decks are powerful, or at least I try to ensure they are. No, my decks have never won the event. I will not back down from where I stand or what I do, certainly not until I can claim I've built the strongest deck in a given week.
Your first argument is a bit skewed, you're basically saying that there is no human factor here... by saying that no matter what because they played those decks at one point they are at fault, eliminating the idea that they could play the deck, realize that its not fun or good for the environment and then change
i wont go back into the argument over playing cards that are expensive because its a little silly, it uses a lot of assumptions, the first of which is that they were always so overpriced and the second of which is that they paid that much for it, why punish someone who got lucky opening a pack?
Well, the white weenie deck doesn't want to have a mid to late game. The deck usually wants to win by turn 5.
The question is not whether Kitesail Apprentice should replace the Lynx. The question is whether a couple Kitesail Apprentices should replace some of the more expensive creatures in the deck.
actually he have had issues where people off this site played those decks.
The very first week of the event Flippers_Giraffe ran HelmLine, the 2nd LE ran Painter's Servant and he has also run fish on occasion, though less powerful than normal due to a lack of daze and FoW. Heck I even ran Pauper Goblins one time to 2nd place. Though to be honest as a pauper deck i did not think it would perform as it did. However the thing is we didn't a)run these again or b)show up with three friends all packing identical fish lists either like we were PTQing the event. The people we all know here ran the decks once and quit. Ive seen the people in the event in question in other events...its what they do. In fact after running Painter's Servant LE said..."that was not even fun to be honest" And we may all be semi-competitive players but really is it necessary to be a douche just to win four tickets?
"I was a little hurt about it because as I saw it the three that came were rude, spiky and pretty much there to make a mockery of the whole thing. Or so it seemed to me."
that is more along the lines of what most people are thinking there is such little respect amongst players in casual, not just a tourny setting, but everywhere
I appreciate your comments. You are right, it does take lots of work putting all the data together. I don't know this as fact, but I am assuming many more Tarmos were cracked than FOWs. Once Tarmo rotates out, which won't be for awhile, it will surely drop in price imo. I'm just glad I got my Tarmos for 10 each a long time ago, also got my playset of FOW for 45 (15, 15,10,5).
The nice thing about Legacy is that there are plenty of decks you can play that don't run FOW. I am just finishing up the 3rd "spell" part and my final article will focus around non-blue running Legacy decks.
Understood, but it does work...the counter spells are very important, and diluting the cards to fit in another color look great on paper...but are bad in testing...I admit some powerful builds - depending on meta, with Black/Blue - I've presented the pro's/cons above. BTW- - I have both R.Trap AND Relic. Not saying Dredge is almost an auto loss first game, just that this deck is REALLY good vs shift and Hexmage/depths etc.., which was the point :)
Any thoughts on Shambling Shell? It is a nice dredger and packs quite a punch, also has a cute interaction with Festercreep. Problem is what to take out...
If I challenged you to a match and ran Fish, I'd kill you with Dandan. If I were running Merfolk, they'd be green. Tribal is my playground: I don't see the point in rehashing well-trodden ground when I can consistently do well doing what I want to do. And tell your feelings to cheer up: I've got far too thick a skin to be annoyed at valid and accurate criticism.
These lists are extremely useful, again the second installment is another great resource. I have more or less done similar work on my own and it takes a long, long time. I appreciate how you break it down given an initial investment in the top 5, what costs are incurred from there.
I wish with the lands article you had included the price of getting the fourth tropical island for example when running a list that has four (not a big deal).
I prioritized getting my wastelands based on your last article and I think got them for around 10.25/each, it felt like I was bleeding tix. An uncommon in a set that you can draft?
I wish I had picked up all four 'goyf at 26 ugh...
I heard people are stock piling force of wills, if this is true I hope similar doesn't happen with 'goyf. Even better I wish WotC would pick its shots and reprint FOW.
2.) Daze
3.) Thoughtseize
4.) Swords or Path?
5.) Vial
I've seen many scapeshift players with two "cantrip" gaea's blessing in their boards to battle dredge. however... i'm also pretty sure you could easily run extirpate. If you're not hitting their keycards you can at least force them to shuffle and "Crap! Trap" to add insult to injury. extirpate can respond to the blessing trigger removing all copies and clearing the way. and you can use teachings to fetch PTE, Extirpate or Archive/ Ravenous Trap.
I've seen decent builds in esper colors, this however needs work.
Again quite odd. Any clues about why? Does your screen extend past 800px? etc?
"The very fact that it is a tournament where a prize is involved means that it is not casual."
I think Shard would disagree with you there. I at least was under the impression that a "casual competitive" atmosphere was what Shard was shooting for. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe there is no such animal.
I say that folks bringing tier one stuff to this event remind me of a guy gives out hard fouls at his office basketball league games.
Sure, its a tournament, and sure we all wanna "win". But it's a little tournament, with a little prize and I think Shard is quite justified in being pissed at guys bringing guns to his knife fights.
RE: the timing, I take full responsibility for my article. I knew Shard would be posting his but as they say "strike while the iron is hot" in reference to inspiration. So I wrote about my idea which you happen to dislike and I respect that.
What I don't respect is randomly bashing people in an event you don't even play in. No offense but none of the decks you have faced in casual have the power level of FOW/Daze/Vial full of fish. Yes there are some inevitable decks and Ive already mentioned to Flips and AJ that they should scale back when playing them in the casual room as the expectations are a lot lower there than elsewhere. HOWEVER, I would never expect ANYONE clans member or not to scale back from a tourney. I question the motives of anyone rolling through a dinky tourney knowing fullwell they won't see opposition of any value (though for the record both painter-stone deck guy and Markus and even Shard put up credable fights. As it should be.) But even if I question their motives I defend their right to play. That said I wish to see changes made to the format to make this kind of thing not an issue.
I was not angry. I was a little hurt about it because as I saw it the three that came were rude, spiky and pretty much there to make a mockery of the whole thing. Or so it seemed to me. Some of that was probably just youthful exuberance but to me it looked disrespectful. I also felt very badly for Shard who was enraged. I felt a bit angry on his behalf just for that reason.
But yes tourneys for prizes are anything goes, no holds barred etc. On the other hand a community building tourney is NOT the place to come shit on everyone.
I think you are the one who massively missed the point. And I call bs on that last paragraph.
I think it's quiet because the peanut gallery has already said what there is to be said about the various merits and shortcomings of this approach. If this were the *first* entry in the series...
I'll say this, no other color embodies the "this is sealed not draft" aspect of this series of articles. Survivalist when you can draft an ally deck and Nissa's Chosen when you can be near-monogreen are a completely different story.
I'd say the Vastwood Gorger, even if not at significant numbers, also underscores both the fact that sealed is slower and that this analysis doesn't take into account the impact of casting cost on the results. Disfigure may be the only relevant spell the person played on their mull to 5, stuck on 2 lands game. Every Vastwood Gorger represents someone who made it to six mana.
Thanks for the series, though, food for thought no matter how you slice it.
With cards like DoJ and the Ascension in his side board my assumption is plenty of games do get to turns 5+. But I definitely do see the merit of keeping the Lynxes and dropping another card to fit in the kitesail... maybe the skyfisher. The list seems to be lacking very many permanents I'd actually *want* to return to my hand.
No offense taken. As host you have every right to complain about the people involved in the tournament. My point was that, let's say LE, or AJ, or me, or any of the awesome people we have here at PureMTGO had shown up to the tournament and played Fish, Painter's Servant, Helmline, whatever, would you still be as mad? Cause I have played against some of the decks AJ and LE can come up with and they are infuriating, but it seems like those decks are ok because they are piloting them and I like those guys. I feel that the attack should be made on the deck (if it's broken) no matter who the pilot is. If AJ challenged me to a match and he ran Fish, I would most likely give him hell for it, not because I don't like him, but because I don't like the Fish deck.
Responding to the people above, I think they are agreeing with me, or my point was massively lost. My point being that this is a competitive format and by all means people should be able to run whatever they want. As I said, if I had 4 Vindicates you can bet your rear end I would be running them. I am all in favor of using power cards. I am NOT in favor of people getting mad at the format losing its "casual" nature. The very fact that it is a tournament where a prize is involved means that it is not casual. When I enter a tournament I play to win and that means I run the best cards I have at my disposal. Now where I might differ from others is that, if I had the cards to make the Fish deck, I would be running it all the time. Best cards means best cards no matter what other people think of them.
I like all of you guys and enjoy playing magic against you. I would never dream of purposely picking a fight with any of you. It even hurt my feelings to write that message.
I agree. These tournaments are designed to be high powered. If Tarmogoyfs are allowed in the format, why should I be guilted into using Grizzly Bears?
And it's not just about budget issues. The Casual play debate is a whole can of worms that I generally try to avoid.
A full set of Swords of the Meek AND Thopter Foundries are $5.40, and yet a few people were grumbling about me playing them in a deck with 3 rares total in it.
well coming back as ineligible is unfortunate though ive been able to pick him up in many online drafts as late as pick 8 or 9 sometimes. Though most times unless i'm heavy allies, he would go before the survivalist and probably the expedition as well
I suppose that's true, except for maybe Vastwood Gorger.
lol well actually the cards up there seem to be in a pretty reasonable order. There are sore thumb stickouts like a 3/3 for 5 beating scalable removal. This basically came out like the green common pick order.
The pictures float over the text for me as well.
No offense blau, but I must admit the way you are looking at only one weeks results is slightly skewed. and ask anyone of the regulars that do actually play in our events, none of them ever complain over decks like those. But when these same regulars are all annoyed that one clan brought 3-4 members and all ran classic combos and proven classic decks? yeah its annoying. And in Classic Tribal our decks are right in line with the average power level. I dont think one of those decks has a chance of taking down a Classic PE(no offense AJ or LE). UNlike oh lets see card for card lists of CLassic PE winning decks? Not to mention that if I don't like the tide is turning I have every right to get up in arms about it. Lets not forget just whose tournament it is. I started the idea, I approached MTGOTraders for sponsorship. Sadly this happens in every PRE I've either run or been a player of. It all starts out fun for a while then inevitably a group of spikes comes along and totally blows everything out of whack. The sad thing is there are PRE's out there for people like that. Go watch a Hater's Ball PRE...that is a cutthroat event by design. It's made for running high class tier 1 classic decks. This one isn't. If you don;t like that or my opinions, then too bad. As host I'm more concerned with the welfare of the event and the fun level it has for regular players who know who they are. Are the decks of regulars good? Well yeah look at some of our regulars. Are we all bringing HelmLine, Painter's Servant, and Tier One classic decks? Not even close.
I would have thought it would have done better. Just the other day, I came to the same conclusions you did, thinking faeries would be a great call -
I like the list, perhaps give it another go before calling it quits.
Your rundown on the "to-do' list for a deck is nice logical approach - additionally, thanks for posting such an honest report...always suspect when someone goes 8-0. etc.,
I'm also in the same boat as AJ I play to win and will use every card that is available to me within my budget.
I import all sorts of combos from other tier one classic, ext and Std decks and fit them snugly into a tribal theme. I also play off the wall decks as well.
I have one rule which is to try and never run the same deck twice so I can keep it interesting for those playing me and myself.
I must admit I'm fed up of seeing "fish" but I thought long and hard before responding and decided in the end let them bring their tier one decks I beat oath and the games I played the past weekend vs the winner using fish was very close indeed, I was kicked out in the first round but it makes you evaluate your deck and come back with some thing stronger next week.
This isnt a budget deck event its full on classic tribal and in classic you will get powerful cards and you will need to think of the answers to them while making your decks.
I wouldn't criticise Paul or Shard on timing: Events inspired both of them to write, with no inkling of what the other was doing.
On the matter of my decks being overpowered, I bloody well hope so! I put a lot of effort into these saturday tourneys, with the intention of winning them, on the understanding that there are vialfolk, vialblins, impdredge, et cetera, et cetera out there. Someone will always play something really nasty, and so I don't see it as wrong to innovate something nastier yet to match them.
I don't particularily want to analyse the latest classic decks to see what I can shoehorn in, but I quite happily look at the entire cardpool with an open mind and the full resources of my collection.
Yes, my decks are powerful, or at least I try to ensure they are. No, my decks have never won the event. I will not back down from where I stand or what I do, certainly not until I can claim I've built the strongest deck in a given week.
Your first argument is a bit skewed, you're basically saying that there is no human factor here... by saying that no matter what because they played those decks at one point they are at fault, eliminating the idea that they could play the deck, realize that its not fun or good for the environment and then change
i wont go back into the argument over playing cards that are expensive because its a little silly, it uses a lot of assumptions, the first of which is that they were always so overpriced and the second of which is that they paid that much for it, why punish someone who got lucky opening a pack?
Well, the white weenie deck doesn't want to have a mid to late game. The deck usually wants to win by turn 5.
The question is not whether Kitesail Apprentice should replace the Lynx. The question is whether a couple Kitesail Apprentices should replace some of the more expensive creatures in the deck.