I thought I would take this time to point out that whenever you are the target of Code of Conduct violations, you should take the time to report them (and use screenshots). While I understand that it is not necessarily convenient, if every one reported the violators I wager the number of incidents would decrease as offenders were penalized for their poor judgment and bad behavior.
Shard: PM Me, lets see if we can get you into an affordable deck that will be a bit better than burn. Burn is good, but ez to play around, I think we may be able to do better
Anom: I don't the mana base for the deck is the reason why, and I'm not a fan of the deck. I've played it previously, and even though it was interesting, it wasn't very tough on descion making. For the most part, If I get the combo, it's over. If not, you survived with your tools. I had two tough gifts desicions against that really took me some time, but most of the time I was able to get what I needed.
Next up is the arguement for PT Jank: Jank can be straight forward, but lets remember their cards are flexabile and can present themselves with targetting different permanents. Cards like Putrefy and Pulse have an array of targets that can make desicion making tough. Like you said, in the matchup with Tez: Do you save the pulse and putrefy or do you play them and hope to draw another for their threats. With Witness, what card do you grab from the graveyard if no threat presents itself, or do you even play the witness? Is it better to wait, things like that pop up often times. I'm just saying, perhaps the choices you're given aren't as straight forward, especially with Jank, because gifts/rock at one point was PT Jank.
So based on this your whole argument is not valid. Based on what you just said rock is not the hardest deck to play. It is the hardest deck for YOU to play. If you'd made that argument from the start it'd be a lot more plausible. That said calling Tez easy is still suspect. If you're able to play it so well I'd recommend putting down the faeries you had some trouble with and picking it up.
Sorry but Seismic Strike over Blinding Mage is the kind of pick that makes me stop reading immediately. Guys, you should really write about formats you are comfortable with and can add value to the readers. I understand that not everyone can be a "draft pro" but there are certainly enough topics and formats to write about to fit preference and skill. Rating Seismic Strike over Blinding Mage p1p1 is outrageous. A last hopefully helpful advice - never, ever use the build in "hint tool." It's horrible.
I hope that doesn't come out harsher then it's intended to be but I think there is just more harm then help done by walkthroughs like this.
I was playing a mono-red deck a few days ago and one opponent opened with a Vedalken Outlander followed by a Quietus Spike. I gave him a 'LOL, this will be quick' comment and played it out.
We're all going to run into the one deck or opponent's start that just wrecks us once in a while. I don't see it as any reason to turn into an A-hole. Unfortunately a lot of people do.
I think that Magic Online PTQ's are getting much more hype than IRL ones, and it only has one Top 8 so far, and it was the version without Cloudstone Curio. Most people will know that Elves is a deck, but probably not playtested a ton against it. I don't think that you can honestly say that every good player will be playing Faeries, and even then Fae is not nearly as good against them as it was last year, since they no longer run Engineered Explosives, Sower of Temptation, or Glen Elendra Archmage maindeck.
Also, the fact that the guy who didn't win the PTQ was the one writing the article might mean something as far as the popularity of the deck is concerned. Yes, I think it is a good deck. No, I don't think most people will be prepared for it.
hmmm are there any replacement lands for mutavault? Other than that i could afford the whole RDW in a day? I know going into classic there is mishra's workshop which would be far cheaper and give access to fireblasts and chain lightnings...
I really enjoyed this article fatty. The game clips are alot cleaner then your previous ones, lacking the "Um.." and "Uh.." fillers. Although the written part looks a little lacking, although from what i see it seems that some of it was lost in the post. Other then that, i really enjoyed seeing how you piloted fae against some of the current meta-game.
I can understand hate in Limited. Ive been totally pissed at Limited opponents before. However it is normally because I messed up in the draft and ended up with a weak deck and their is much better. However I don't take it out on them in game. Though I may curse their deck as i top deck an ior ruin expedition...why i thought it was decent in limited at the beginning of ZZZ i will never know. And yeah there are decks i hate playing aginst in cas/cas, i mean honestly, I dont enjoy a game against mill or discard but at worse i may tell them you know you just milled or durressed my win-con gg and concede
Thanks for the link, I was at a professional conference that weekend and things got crazy when I got back, so I missed that one. Your point is a good one; I guess - as you no doubt know - "feeling good" while playing MTG is a relative thing. I won't say that getting something countered feels good. There is a psychological satisfaction of getting something into play, even if it does not last until the end of turn. I groan when someone kills my breeding pool, hymn to tourachs me, or force of wills my spell, but being disappointed doesn't make me want to quit that particular game. I don't always enjoy all playing experiences or moments.
It's interesting that the article you linked to makes some identical points to mine although with a different slant. Draw-Go versions probably aren't so nice to play in casual, although nothing is stopping one from doing so - they'll just know that they'll get many more concessions/disconnects that way.
You are correct in all that you said. Nice points. I won't expect people to have the same perspective I do while playing; as I said, it's impossible to please everyone and people do react negatively to strange things sometimes.
I've noticed there's a great deal of hate in MTGO in general. Although it's more prevalent in the casual room, you can get "hated on" pretty much anywhere, especially if you're prone to a bad mistake or careless play like I tend to be. Like MadSalad said previously I've gotten serious hate from limited players in tournaments. While it doesn't bother me, it did surprise me the first couple of times. As a true "newb" who also happens to be over forty, is some of that hate in limited play a conscious attempt by some players to try and distract opponents and maybe gain an advantage, or is it just sour grapes? Also does anybody else get that, or am I just overly sensitive to it?
I don't think Ad Naus is easy to play, but I think Oath is laughable, I won't touch it because how easy it is.
When I played Gifts Rock, I thought it was really ez, but I thought that deathcloud was kinda challanging, just like I think Fae is some what difficult and Thopter is ez. I think you have to figure out how you view the game. I shouldn't say it's ez cos you may struggle with playing the deck but excel with Zoo, while some one may think Zoo is challanging with plays and when and what to burn, while they may feel comfortable with control. Nassif is a player who likes to play around things, and he has a hard time playing straight forward. Think about what he's won with and what he's infamous for:
Martyr Tron: Plays around Agro
5 CC: Allows certain things to hit that seem unconventional IE Bitterblossom
4CC Counter-top: Lets certain things hit and plays around them.
He's generally not done well with straight forward lists like Zoo, while some one like Kibler has done best with fast decks that have cantrips built in: Esper Stone-Blade with the Thopter, and Punishing Fire Zoo. Kibler admits he hates playing combo because he doesn't see the game that way. Nassif Plays cards in hand game, while Kibler plays board positioning. Each of course has great mind games, but what I'm saying is, perhaps you think the list is hard to play, while I've played the gifts deck and it is difficult, but I understand how to play it and the choices to get against certain decks. If you wanna play test some, we can, and I'll help ya with what I know, it's the only way to figure out new things!
My plan is to get one more article in this week before the prerelease, and I'll try to cover more than seven cards, with a focus more on the game-changers and significant upgrades (such as Treasure Hunt > Ior Ruin Expedition).
Also, we're trying for two podcasts this week over at Limited Resources (http://www.mtgcast.com/?cat=65), covering most if not all Worldwake commons and uncommons. If you are interested in my opinion of a higher volume of cards, be sure to check out the 'casts. #17--already up--tackles quite a few.
Hey, sure: a decent-sized group of people in the casual room have been playing "big deck" for about two years now. Some of the people I play don't believe in tutors, so I have decks where what you get is what you get, and then others of us pull out all the stops and have some pretty nasty "toolbox" decks, so I have those decks as well. In some cases, the enhanced randomness of it is appealing to those of us who play, and it's a whole different experience than the finely tuned 60-card play that I usually do. I am a big fan of 100 singleton, pauper, pps, and - of course - 60 card classic, but find the play atmosphere more laid back with the big decks (and anywhere from 40-99 life, 10 cards, depending on who you play) and a different kind of fun. Plus knowing it's something that can't easily be done in real life makes it additionally fun, as well, for me.
How exactly is Depths/Thopter strait forward? Maybe you're talking about DD without the maindeck Thopter combo? And calling Gifts/Thopter easy to lay "if you know the meta" is laughable. There are still many, many decisions to make and the deck really punishes you for making the wrong one.
While I think Excavator will occasionally mill people out, I think you hit the nail on the head; most of his uses are going to ignore the 'Ally' type line completely, except possibly with Ondu Clerics and the occasional Shieldmate to hold the ground. What I think it does it further the possibilities for the more controlly U/W archetypes for draft purposes, though we'll have to see what other flyers we get for that deck.
I'd be really curious what you think of the various 'new' new cards, though, the less-analagous ones. Treasure Hunt seems like it'll be fantastic for limited; the white Instant Ally spell should function in the right decks as a classic high-mana blowout combat trick; Quag Vampires seem infinitely better than Bog Tatters for blowing open those annoying Black mirror matches; Grotag Goblin Thrasher seems like a great late-game card for the red decks; and Roiling Terrain... well, Roiling Terrain seems like an awesome card to pick that Zen land over...
even when it comes to solutions running quest is fairly lame... I just either win or lose, im not running sub par cards for one match up in casual, unfortunately others dont view it as this. I mean would you really SB the quest? and even then unless you splash blue..
Hello everyone - I just wanted to say thankyou to all for such informed and thought provoking feedback. I just got back from work to find not only was my article published, but so many of you took the time and energy to respond - I appreciate it.
My mill deck is very much a personal brew rather than a tournament construction but nevertheless I found it interesting that some perceive the Casual Room as an environment where certain strategies are perceived as more welcomed than others.
I also concede the point that there is less overt 'interaction' in milling (although that having been said I would argue that 'Pacifism', 'Assassinate' or 'Into the Roil' DO interact in as dynamic a way as the 'Wall of Faith' - all of which feature in my deck along with the mill spells. I have other decks in mind which will involve plenty of 'critter on critter' action but this was put together with a different kind of dynamic in mind).
It's great to be back and I still have much to learn - I appreciate the guidance and the food for thought - I look forward to more interactions in the future. I'd also just like to thank all those who contribute articles or podcasts dedicated to MTG - I am on such a steep learning curve but loving every moment.
All they do is hate no matter what you do. If it disrupts their plans they are going to hate on you, period. Most of the people who complain so much just can't handle the fact that you used a counterspell or disrupted their library manipulation with a sudden mill spell.
In regards to counters, the only difference between it and removal (as far as permanents go at least) is the fact that it never gets into play. That right there is too much for some people to handle and will force a concession.
As for milling I find that if you do it to someone by putting lot's of artifacts like Font of Mythos or Howling Mine into play, you get less concessions. Maybe it's because they are actually getting the cards in hand first but either way, I've had more people make mistakes just because they had a ton of cards in their hands and were overwhelmed with the options.
Like others have said, it is more difficult IMO to mill 60 cards (or more usually if you play classic like I do) than it is to take 20 life from someone in most cases. Magic is all about challenging yourself to see the limits of your play/deck building skills. Some players don't understand this and have a limited view on the nature of competition, be it magic or anything else in life.
I thought I would take this time to point out that whenever you are the target of Code of Conduct violations, you should take the time to report them (and use screenshots). While I understand that it is not necessarily convenient, if every one reported the violators I wager the number of incidents would decrease as offenders were penalized for their poor judgment and bad behavior.
I hate the elf deck :-(
Shard: PM Me, lets see if we can get you into an affordable deck that will be a bit better than burn. Burn is good, but ez to play around, I think we may be able to do better
Anom: I don't the mana base for the deck is the reason why, and I'm not a fan of the deck. I've played it previously, and even though it was interesting, it wasn't very tough on descion making. For the most part, If I get the combo, it's over. If not, you survived with your tools. I had two tough gifts desicions against that really took me some time, but most of the time I was able to get what I needed.
Next up is the arguement for PT Jank: Jank can be straight forward, but lets remember their cards are flexabile and can present themselves with targetting different permanents. Cards like Putrefy and Pulse have an array of targets that can make desicion making tough. Like you said, in the matchup with Tez: Do you save the pulse and putrefy or do you play them and hope to draw another for their threats. With Witness, what card do you grab from the graveyard if no threat presents itself, or do you even play the witness? Is it better to wait, things like that pop up often times. I'm just saying, perhaps the choices you're given aren't as straight forward, especially with Jank, because gifts/rock at one point was PT Jank.
I said "a lot" not "all".
So based on this your whole argument is not valid. Based on what you just said rock is not the hardest deck to play. It is the hardest deck for YOU to play. If you'd made that argument from the start it'd be a lot more plausible. That said calling Tez easy is still suspect. If you're able to play it so well I'd recommend putting down the faeries you had some trouble with and picking it up.
Sorry but Seismic Strike over Blinding Mage is the kind of pick that makes me stop reading immediately. Guys, you should really write about formats you are comfortable with and can add value to the readers. I understand that not everyone can be a "draft pro" but there are certainly enough topics and formats to write about to fit preference and skill. Rating Seismic Strike over Blinding Mage p1p1 is outrageous. A last hopefully helpful advice - never, ever use the build in "hint tool." It's horrible.
I hope that doesn't come out harsher then it's intended to be but I think there is just more harm then help done by walkthroughs like this.
Cheers,
Plejades
I was playing a mono-red deck a few days ago and one opponent opened with a Vedalken Outlander followed by a Quietus Spike. I gave him a 'LOL, this will be quick' comment and played it out.
We're all going to run into the one deck or opponent's start that just wrecks us once in a while. I don't see it as any reason to turn into an A-hole. Unfortunately a lot of people do.
I think that Magic Online PTQ's are getting much more hype than IRL ones, and it only has one Top 8 so far, and it was the version without Cloudstone Curio. Most people will know that Elves is a deck, but probably not playtested a ton against it. I don't think that you can honestly say that every good player will be playing Faeries, and even then Fae is not nearly as good against them as it was last year, since they no longer run Engineered Explosives, Sower of Temptation, or Glen Elendra Archmage maindeck.
Also, the fact that the guy who didn't win the PTQ was the one writing the article might mean something as far as the popularity of the deck is concerned. Yes, I think it is a good deck. No, I don't think most people will be prepared for it.
hmmm are there any replacement lands for mutavault? Other than that i could afford the whole RDW in a day? I know going into classic there is mishra's workshop which would be far cheaper and give access to fireblasts and chain lightnings...
I really enjoyed this article fatty. The game clips are alot cleaner then your previous ones, lacking the "Um.." and "Uh.." fillers. Although the written part looks a little lacking, although from what i see it seems that some of it was lost in the post. Other then that, i really enjoyed seeing how you piloted fae against some of the current meta-game.
I can understand hate in Limited. Ive been totally pissed at Limited opponents before. However it is normally because I messed up in the draft and ended up with a weak deck and their is much better. However I don't take it out on them in game. Though I may curse their deck as i top deck an ior ruin expedition...why i thought it was decent in limited at the beginning of ZZZ i will never know. And yeah there are decks i hate playing aginst in cas/cas, i mean honestly, I dont enjoy a game against mill or discard but at worse i may tell them you know you just milled or durressed my win-con gg and concede
Thanks for the link, I was at a professional conference that weekend and things got crazy when I got back, so I missed that one. Your point is a good one; I guess - as you no doubt know - "feeling good" while playing MTG is a relative thing. I won't say that getting something countered feels good. There is a psychological satisfaction of getting something into play, even if it does not last until the end of turn. I groan when someone kills my breeding pool, hymn to tourachs me, or force of wills my spell, but being disappointed doesn't make me want to quit that particular game. I don't always enjoy all playing experiences or moments.
It's interesting that the article you linked to makes some identical points to mine although with a different slant. Draw-Go versions probably aren't so nice to play in casual, although nothing is stopping one from doing so - they'll just know that they'll get many more concessions/disconnects that way.
You are correct in all that you said. Nice points. I won't expect people to have the same perspective I do while playing; as I said, it's impossible to please everyone and people do react negatively to strange things sometimes.
Exothermic
I've noticed there's a great deal of hate in MTGO in general. Although it's more prevalent in the casual room, you can get "hated on" pretty much anywhere, especially if you're prone to a bad mistake or careless play like I tend to be. Like MadSalad said previously I've gotten serious hate from limited players in tournaments. While it doesn't bother me, it did surprise me the first couple of times. As a true "newb" who also happens to be over forty, is some of that hate in limited play a conscious attempt by some players to try and distract opponents and maybe gain an advantage, or is it just sour grapes? Also does anybody else get that, or am I just overly sensitive to it?
it all depends and this is what I mean:
I don't think Ad Naus is easy to play, but I think Oath is laughable, I won't touch it because how easy it is.
When I played Gifts Rock, I thought it was really ez, but I thought that deathcloud was kinda challanging, just like I think Fae is some what difficult and Thopter is ez. I think you have to figure out how you view the game. I shouldn't say it's ez cos you may struggle with playing the deck but excel with Zoo, while some one may think Zoo is challanging with plays and when and what to burn, while they may feel comfortable with control. Nassif is a player who likes to play around things, and he has a hard time playing straight forward. Think about what he's won with and what he's infamous for:
Martyr Tron: Plays around Agro
5 CC: Allows certain things to hit that seem unconventional IE Bitterblossom
4CC Counter-top: Lets certain things hit and plays around them.
He's generally not done well with straight forward lists like Zoo, while some one like Kibler has done best with fast decks that have cantrips built in: Esper Stone-Blade with the Thopter, and Punishing Fire Zoo. Kibler admits he hates playing combo because he doesn't see the game that way. Nassif Plays cards in hand game, while Kibler plays board positioning. Each of course has great mind games, but what I'm saying is, perhaps you think the list is hard to play, while I've played the gifts deck and it is difficult, but I understand how to play it and the choices to get against certain decks. If you wanna play test some, we can, and I'll help ya with what I know, it's the only way to figure out new things!
So...many...cards...
My plan is to get one more article in this week before the prerelease, and I'll try to cover more than seven cards, with a focus more on the game-changers and significant upgrades (such as Treasure Hunt > Ior Ruin Expedition).
Also, we're trying for two podcasts this week over at Limited Resources (http://www.mtgcast.com/?cat=65), covering most if not all Worldwake commons and uncommons. If you are interested in my opinion of a higher volume of cards, be sure to check out the 'casts. #17--already up--tackles quite a few.
-Ryan
1400 cards (including sideboard) seems to be the true, current, playable max at the moment, btw.
Hey, sure: a decent-sized group of people in the casual room have been playing "big deck" for about two years now. Some of the people I play don't believe in tutors, so I have decks where what you get is what you get, and then others of us pull out all the stops and have some pretty nasty "toolbox" decks, so I have those decks as well. In some cases, the enhanced randomness of it is appealing to those of us who play, and it's a whole different experience than the finely tuned 60-card play that I usually do. I am a big fan of 100 singleton, pauper, pps, and - of course - 60 card classic, but find the play atmosphere more laid back with the big decks (and anywhere from 40-99 life, 10 cards, depending on who you play) and a different kind of fun. Plus knowing it's something that can't easily be done in real life makes it additionally fun, as well, for me.
How exactly is Depths/Thopter strait forward? Maybe you're talking about DD without the maindeck Thopter combo? And calling Gifts/Thopter easy to lay "if you know the meta" is laughable. There are still many, many decisions to make and the deck really punishes you for making the wrong one.
While I think Excavator will occasionally mill people out, I think you hit the nail on the head; most of his uses are going to ignore the 'Ally' type line completely, except possibly with Ondu Clerics and the occasional Shieldmate to hold the ground. What I think it does it further the possibilities for the more controlly U/W archetypes for draft purposes, though we'll have to see what other flyers we get for that deck.
I'd be really curious what you think of the various 'new' new cards, though, the less-analagous ones. Treasure Hunt seems like it'll be fantastic for limited; the white Instant Ally spell should function in the right decks as a classic high-mana blowout combat trick; Quag Vampires seem infinitely better than Bog Tatters for blowing open those annoying Black mirror matches; Grotag Goblin Thrasher seems like a great late-game card for the red decks; and Roiling Terrain... well, Roiling Terrain seems like an awesome card to pick that Zen land over...
even when it comes to solutions running quest is fairly lame... I just either win or lose, im not running sub par cards for one match up in casual, unfortunately others dont view it as this. I mean would you really SB the quest? and even then unless you splash blue..
"There is no Gaea's Blessing in standard, and even wheel of sun and moon, moved on to extended without a replacement. And so mill seems unfair."
Four words for this entire discussion. Quest for Ancient Secrets.
Hello everyone - I just wanted to say thankyou to all for such informed and thought provoking feedback. I just got back from work to find not only was my article published, but so many of you took the time and energy to respond - I appreciate it.
My mill deck is very much a personal brew rather than a tournament construction but nevertheless I found it interesting that some perceive the Casual Room as an environment where certain strategies are perceived as more welcomed than others.
I also concede the point that there is less overt 'interaction' in milling (although that having been said I would argue that 'Pacifism', 'Assassinate' or 'Into the Roil' DO interact in as dynamic a way as the 'Wall of Faith' - all of which feature in my deck along with the mill spells. I have other decks in mind which will involve plenty of 'critter on critter' action but this was put together with a different kind of dynamic in mind).
It's great to be back and I still have much to learn - I appreciate the guidance and the food for thought - I look forward to more interactions in the future. I'd also just like to thank all those who contribute articles or podcasts dedicated to MTG - I am on such a steep learning curve but loving every moment.
All Good Thoughts
Andy Fisher
dark depths is straight forward, the gifts/thopter deck isn't that difficult, you just need to be familiar with the meta.
I have to ask: is there a reason for a deck exactly 1394 cards in size?
All they do is hate no matter what you do. If it disrupts their plans they are going to hate on you, period. Most of the people who complain so much just can't handle the fact that you used a counterspell or disrupted their library manipulation with a sudden mill spell.
In regards to counters, the only difference between it and removal (as far as permanents go at least) is the fact that it never gets into play. That right there is too much for some people to handle and will force a concession.
As for milling I find that if you do it to someone by putting lot's of artifacts like Font of Mythos or Howling Mine into play, you get less concessions. Maybe it's because they are actually getting the cards in hand first but either way, I've had more people make mistakes just because they had a ton of cards in their hands and were overwhelmed with the options.
Like others have said, it is more difficult IMO to mill 60 cards (or more usually if you play classic like I do) than it is to take 20 life from someone in most cases. Magic is all about challenging yourself to see the limits of your play/deck building skills. Some players don't understand this and have a limited view on the nature of competition, be it magic or anything else in life.
Good luck and welcome back to MTG.