kiiiiiinda agree with this dude. while spikeboyM is all over the discussion boards and pretty active in terms of talking about decks and what not - i kinda wanna see how good (bad) he plays. theorizing is good and all, but it will give your articles more weight (yes, even more!) if you actually play. i'm all about people getting down into the trenches and playing in the PEs. no offense to you of course, just want to see if the man who talks of pauper so eloquently and frequently has the play to back it =) cheers.
" Alex shares his latest version of Red Green Aggro. Can this deck succeed where previous versions have faltered? Can Plated Geopede and friends stand up to Goblins?"
re
okay so where does the example vs goblins come in at all? Very misleading there alex and truthfully you need to start playing in the PRE's/ques/ or PE's and put your money where your mouth is rather then just keep collecting it with articles that show little to no relevance to the format.
" Alex shares his latest version of Red Green Aggro. Can this deck succeed where previous versions have faltered? Can Plated Geopede and friends stand up to Goblins?"
re
okay so where does the example vs goblins come in at all? Very misleading there alex and truthfully you need to start playing in the PRE's/ques/ or PE's and put your money where your mouth is rather then just keep collecting it with articles that show little to no relevance to the format.
off the top of my head...mana drain, oath of druids, goblin recruiter, bazaar of baghdad, necropotence, imperial seal, vampiric tutor, grim tutor, demonic consultation, flash, mana crypt are all banned in legacy.
Presumeably the coming year will add to that list considerably.
Very good point Ronin. Most probably my mistake was that. I just watched the replay and here's the hand I kept:
1x Island, 1x Forest, 1x Reflecting Pool, 1x Tradewind Rider, 1x Counterspell, 1x Forbid, 1x Capsize.
It definately looks nice but as you say, it doesn't have what I need to stop WW.
The next turn I draw another Forbid, then a Capsize, then a Wall of Blossoms, then a Skyshroud Forest and then a Capsize. At this point the game is already decided. My last draw is Spike Feeder.
Both of those questions can be answered, in part, by discussing the mana base, which for some reason, I totally neglected to do.
This is a Red deck. Sure, it has some Green cards, but they are only there to make the Red cards better and while it is nice to hit them on their ideal turn, it is not vital at all for the deck to function properly. Running Mauler or Nacatl would mean increasing the presence of Green in the deck, which would make it difficult to have a strong Bushwhacker turn, which require an abundance of Red mana. Having RG available on turn two for Mauler would hurt the rest of the deck, and then having one late just seems not so hot.
I abandoned Nacatl because it was not good. Having one on turn one felt good, until it was dealt with, at which point I had manipulated my mana base for the sake of a few points of damage. At the same time, to maximize Nacatl, you need to make a choice of developing your board presence through creatures/damage or through land. When it works and you get all of them naturally early, it's great, but otherwise, I was disappointed.
I guess what it really comes down to is I started winning more when I stopped playing Nacatl, so I cut it.
hey arch,
nice! good to see you had players for the inception of ur format. i like it and wanted to see the first one fire - i'll have to start building for your format since i love 100cs as is.
Sometimes you need to mull into an answer vs. a known deck. In particular in your match vs. WW what made you keep your hands if you had none of the cards needed to beat WW? I would have loved to see a discussion of the hands you kept.
I love tempest block, great article on it, its quite funny how some of those match ups worked out for you, i know i've had luck like that and im really lookin forward to seein ur blackblade list, i built a UW deck for it, but couldn't make it on and from what little ive seen it was something pretty close to what you were running, flicker could really dominate that format
Thank you for mentioning my Classic Blackblade Singleton tournament and congradulations on winning the first one.
For those that are interested. The second Classic Blackblade Singleton tournament will be SWISS with at least 3 rounds of play for everyone. It will be on SUNDAY instead of Saturday.
Time: Sunday 1/17 4:00pm EST (registration starts at 3:30pm EST)
Also for those of you looking for a more budget friendly Blackblade Singleton option...
Amar and the other people involved in running the Peasant PREs are running a Peasant Blackblade Singleton tournament on 1/24 8:00pm EST
Hi Alex,
I'm no expert on pauper, but what pauper I have played was with a R/G beatdown deck. I notice that you didn't mention Scab-Clan Mauler at any point, which is a card I found to be insane. I understand that with your lack of "real" 1 drops his power will tail off, but he still works neatly with keldon marauders, and rancor should help to ensure that you can get him bloodthirsted pretty easily.
I also didn't really follow your logic on dropping wild nacatl. Any chance you could elaborate?
tx for the shout out! i started out 5-0, but then i dropped a coupla matches bc i played pretty bad...by 9th rd i was otuta contention..hope you can make it to the next one ham =) gj runeliger - you've been doing well in DEs afaik
So basically, use the M10 booster as your UB? We know their current system supports it. I'm sure careless people will join the event, see that the cost is in M10, see that the payout is in M10, and then be shocked out of their seat when they open a Tempest pack! But those people should also pay attention to the event that they're joining. (no refunds)
I really can't think of anything wrong with this plan. I tried for 15 minutes, but it seems solid. The prize packs still 'expire', players don't have to deal with obsolete prizes, and EV drafters can choose between M10 or TSE whenever singles prices tip the scales one way or the other. It helps that you can crack the 'universal booster' for core set cards now. When the UB was essentially '4 tickets off a queue' with no other value it was kind of like Wizards paying out in tickets, but not really. M10 though seems fine.
Standard-legal sets (ACR, ZEN, and WWK) still need to use the correct boosters because those boosters are actually sold in the store. I think you covered that point.
WotC's goals
-All prize packs should eventually go obsolete or go virtually obsolete. This forces players to spend more money on new packs and encourages us to use the packs we have at a faster rate because they have an expiration date.
-Minimal Programming Expenses. WotC does not have much room for new programming expenses. A lot of currently desired things have a long-term implementation date because of this fact (Leagues, UI redesign) Therefore anything that takes programming resources away from those things is unlikely to go very far.
-Avoid legal issues.
-Make money.
Mutual WotC and Player's Goals
-Reduce waiting time in queues/ Have more queues fire.
-Have a reasonable supply of classic era cards on Magic Online to support formats that use old cards.
Player's Goals
-It needs to be easier to collect the packs needed to draft. 3-set blocks of out of print sets make this especially annoying.
-Queues should award prizes that are not worthless or obsolete as soon as they are awarded. (Alara Reborn packs)
-Packs shouldn't become obsolete. (This is in direct opposition to a way that WotC can make more money.)
Given this analysis, my original idea of "Classic packs" and the idea of a Universal Booster and a dozen of similar ideas fall short because they do things that hurt WotC bottom line in one way or another (goes against their goals). These ideas are very player-centric. However helping players out is not enough of a reason for WotC to make a drastic change to the prize system. Even though it would increase the number of drafts that fire, these ideas would generally cost more money than they would produce.
That is why I originally changed my idea of a "classic booster" to the idea of just using the current core set booster as prize and entry fee for classic drafts and prize for classic events. That way prize packs still go obsolete, it takes virtually no programming to implement, it avoids legal issues, and it would be a money maker.
Of course all that is assuming I understand all of WotC's motivations, which I don't... I'm just trying to make a more educated guess at a mutually beneficial solution to the problem.
I do not believe that they would implement it as you suggest though. The best they could do is likely a UCB (a Universal Classic Booster) for any Mirage-Mercadian block boosters + Masters; they could potentially extend it to any boosters not in standard.
Plejades - I actually hate that they are doing combined packs, but it actually doesn't have much to do with my point. Probably shouldn't of started the article with that.
sanhedrin - Like I said, the idea has been around forever, I'm not expecting UBs to ever happen... but I wanted to start a dialog on how it would work and examine what the effect would be from various angles. And who knows, a lot of people wanted Swiss queues for a long time and they eventually got what they wanted (a intrinsicly beginner friendly draft format).
ArchGenius - I think they could implement it just fine. There is a difference in the entry between the nix-pax/tix queues because the nix-pax include an entry fee (or pack cost adjustment - however you want to look at it) and the nix-tix do not. I think you run into legal issues when some people have to pay an entry fee and others do not.
JustMeBaby - I like the random booster idea - it will even out for everyone in the long run and it will keep there from being a cheap/pricey booster in the set. Might have issues with the "unknown payout" gambling problem.
Stuff - I think you run into serious legal problems if you do Tix in Tix out. Its the same reason they will not allow tix to be broken down into smaller units. Right now there is plausable deniablity that they are for entry fees and are not currency - even though they really are. Once it becomes currency (virtual or otherwise) then its online gambling instead of a fee based tournement. Giving Tix as a payout would be a major step in that direction.
I seem to fall back on the gambling laws argument a lot, maybe I should stop talking out of my ass and do some reserach on how all that actually works...
Great discussions everyone. I think we can all agree that the current payout system is flawed at the very least. I like the solutions we have here, lets hope they do something to improve this aspect of the game.
kiiiiiinda agree with this dude. while spikeboyM is all over the discussion boards and pretty active in terms of talking about decks and what not - i kinda wanna see how good (bad) he plays. theorizing is good and all, but it will give your articles more weight (yes, even more!) if you actually play. i'm all about people getting down into the trenches and playing in the PEs. no offense to you of course, just want to see if the man who talks of pauper so eloquently and frequently has the play to back it =) cheers.
" Alex shares his latest version of Red Green Aggro. Can this deck succeed where previous versions have faltered? Can Plated Geopede and friends stand up to Goblins?"
re
okay so where does the example vs goblins come in at all? Very misleading there alex and truthfully you need to start playing in the PRE's/ques/ or PE's and put your money where your mouth is rather then just keep collecting it with articles that show little to no relevance to the format.
" Alex shares his latest version of Red Green Aggro. Can this deck succeed where previous versions have faltered? Can Plated Geopede and friends stand up to Goblins?"
re
okay so where does the example vs goblins come in at all? Very misleading there alex and truthfully you need to start playing in the PRE's/ques/ or PE's and put your money where your mouth is rather then just keep collecting it with articles that show little to no relevance to the format.
off the top of my head...mana drain, oath of druids, goblin recruiter, bazaar of baghdad, necropotence, imperial seal, vampiric tutor, grim tutor, demonic consultation, flash, mana crypt are all banned in legacy.
Presumeably the coming year will add to that list considerably.
Very good point Ronin. Most probably my mistake was that. I just watched the replay and here's the hand I kept:
1x Island, 1x Forest, 1x Reflecting Pool, 1x Tradewind Rider, 1x Counterspell, 1x Forbid, 1x Capsize.
It definately looks nice but as you say, it doesn't have what I need to stop WW.
The next turn I draw another Forbid, then a Capsize, then a Wall of Blossoms, then a Skyshroud Forest and then a Capsize. At this point the game is already decided. My last draw is Spike Feeder.
Thanks for the comment.
LE
^ In the garruk vs liliana deck. garruk's deck has 2 copies of rancor.
just out of curiuosity....what is the main differences between legacy and classic?
Is Rancor a promo or something? I know Urza's isn't online yet - where do you (or I) open rancors?
Both of those questions can be answered, in part, by discussing the mana base, which for some reason, I totally neglected to do.
This is a Red deck. Sure, it has some Green cards, but they are only there to make the Red cards better and while it is nice to hit them on their ideal turn, it is not vital at all for the deck to function properly. Running Mauler or Nacatl would mean increasing the presence of Green in the deck, which would make it difficult to have a strong Bushwhacker turn, which require an abundance of Red mana. Having RG available on turn two for Mauler would hurt the rest of the deck, and then having one late just seems not so hot.
I abandoned Nacatl because it was not good. Having one on turn one felt good, until it was dealt with, at which point I had manipulated my mana base for the sake of a few points of damage. At the same time, to maximize Nacatl, you need to make a choice of developing your board presence through creatures/damage or through land. When it works and you get all of them naturally early, it's great, but otherwise, I was disappointed.
I guess what it really comes down to is I started winning more when I stopped playing Nacatl, so I cut it.
-Alex
hey arch,
nice! good to see you had players for the inception of ur format. i like it and wanted to see the first one fire - i'll have to start building for your format since i love 100cs as is.
Sometimes you need to mull into an answer vs. a known deck. In particular in your match vs. WW what made you keep your hands if you had none of the cards needed to beat WW? I would have loved to see a discussion of the hands you kept.
Congrats on the win in the blackblade event.
I love tempest block, great article on it, its quite funny how some of those match ups worked out for you, i know i've had luck like that and im really lookin forward to seein ur blackblade list, i built a UW deck for it, but couldn't make it on and from what little ive seen it was something pretty close to what you were running, flicker could really dominate that format
Thank you for mentioning my Classic Blackblade Singleton tournament and congradulations on winning the first one.
For those that are interested. The second Classic Blackblade Singleton tournament will be SWISS with at least 3 rounds of play for everyone. It will be on SUNDAY instead of Saturday.
Time: Sunday 1/17 4:00pm EST (registration starts at 3:30pm EST)
Also for those of you looking for a more budget friendly Blackblade Singleton option...
Amar and the other people involved in running the Peasant PREs are running a Peasant Blackblade Singleton tournament on 1/24 8:00pm EST
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75846/22194273?sdb=1&post_num=1
"1) Tempest Block should be played with Tempest Block lands!"
agreed
Hi Alex,
I'm no expert on pauper, but what pauper I have played was with a R/G beatdown deck. I notice that you didn't mention Scab-Clan Mauler at any point, which is a card I found to be insane. I understand that with your lack of "real" 1 drops his power will tail off, but he still works neatly with keldon marauders, and rancor should help to ensure that you can get him bloodthirsted pretty easily.
I also didn't really follow your logic on dropping wild nacatl. Any chance you could elaborate?
Grats on the win of the PRE. I was blown out round 1 with monoblack vs black/blue control. (insane amounts of counters + isochron)
Grats Sebastian and Rainin! How many total players?
nevermind...commented while listening... 273 or so...
The second Classic Blackblade tournament will be SWISS with at least 3 rounds of play for everyone. It will be on SUNDAY instead of Saturday.
Time: Sunday 1/17 4:00pm EST (registration starts at 3:30pm EST)
Everything else will be the same as the first one.
tx for the shout out! i started out 5-0, but then i dropped a coupla matches bc i played pretty bad...by 9th rd i was otuta contention..hope you can make it to the next one ham =) gj runeliger - you've been doing well in DEs afaik
awesome.... I will definitely be writing about it in my next article....
So basically, use the M10 booster as your UB? We know their current system supports it. I'm sure careless people will join the event, see that the cost is in M10, see that the payout is in M10, and then be shocked out of their seat when they open a Tempest pack! But those people should also pay attention to the event that they're joining. (no refunds)
I really can't think of anything wrong with this plan. I tried for 15 minutes, but it seems solid. The prize packs still 'expire', players don't have to deal with obsolete prizes, and EV drafters can choose between M10 or TSE whenever singles prices tip the scales one way or the other. It helps that you can crack the 'universal booster' for core set cards now. When the UB was essentially '4 tickets off a queue' with no other value it was kind of like Wizards paying out in tickets, but not really. M10 though seems fine.
Standard-legal sets (ACR, ZEN, and WWK) still need to use the correct boosters because those boosters are actually sold in the store. I think you covered that point.
WotC can't pay out in tickets for legal reasons.
Here's my basic analysis of the situation...
WotC's goals
-All prize packs should eventually go obsolete or go virtually obsolete. This forces players to spend more money on new packs and encourages us to use the packs we have at a faster rate because they have an expiration date.
-Minimal Programming Expenses. WotC does not have much room for new programming expenses. A lot of currently desired things have a long-term implementation date because of this fact (Leagues, UI redesign) Therefore anything that takes programming resources away from those things is unlikely to go very far.
-Avoid legal issues.
-Make money.
Mutual WotC and Player's Goals
-Reduce waiting time in queues/ Have more queues fire.
-Have a reasonable supply of classic era cards on Magic Online to support formats that use old cards.
Player's Goals
-It needs to be easier to collect the packs needed to draft. 3-set blocks of out of print sets make this especially annoying.
-Queues should award prizes that are not worthless or obsolete as soon as they are awarded. (Alara Reborn packs)
-Packs shouldn't become obsolete. (This is in direct opposition to a way that WotC can make more money.)
Given this analysis, my original idea of "Classic packs" and the idea of a Universal Booster and a dozen of similar ideas fall short because they do things that hurt WotC bottom line in one way or another (goes against their goals). These ideas are very player-centric. However helping players out is not enough of a reason for WotC to make a drastic change to the prize system. Even though it would increase the number of drafts that fire, these ideas would generally cost more money than they would produce.
That is why I originally changed my idea of a "classic booster" to the idea of just using the current core set booster as prize and entry fee for classic drafts and prize for classic events. That way prize packs still go obsolete, it takes virtually no programming to implement, it avoids legal issues, and it would be a money maker.
Of course all that is assuming I understand all of WotC's motivations, which I don't... I'm just trying to make a more educated guess at a mutually beneficial solution to the problem.
Great article; I hope a WoTC reads this.
I do not believe that they would implement it as you suggest though. The best they could do is likely a UCB (a Universal Classic Booster) for any Mirage-Mercadian block boosters + Masters; they could potentially extend it to any boosters not in standard.
Plejades - I actually hate that they are doing combined packs, but it actually doesn't have much to do with my point. Probably shouldn't of started the article with that.
sanhedrin - Like I said, the idea has been around forever, I'm not expecting UBs to ever happen... but I wanted to start a dialog on how it would work and examine what the effect would be from various angles. And who knows, a lot of people wanted Swiss queues for a long time and they eventually got what they wanted (a intrinsicly beginner friendly draft format).
ArchGenius - I think they could implement it just fine. There is a difference in the entry between the nix-pax/tix queues because the nix-pax include an entry fee (or pack cost adjustment - however you want to look at it) and the nix-tix do not. I think you run into legal issues when some people have to pay an entry fee and others do not.
JustMeBaby - I like the random booster idea - it will even out for everyone in the long run and it will keep there from being a cheap/pricey booster in the set. Might have issues with the "unknown payout" gambling problem.
Stuff - I think you run into serious legal problems if you do Tix in Tix out. Its the same reason they will not allow tix to be broken down into smaller units. Right now there is plausable deniablity that they are for entry fees and are not currency - even though they really are. Once it becomes currency (virtual or otherwise) then its online gambling instead of a fee based tournement. Giving Tix as a payout would be a major step in that direction.
I seem to fall back on the gambling laws argument a lot, maybe I should stop talking out of my ass and do some reserach on how all that actually works...
Great discussions everyone. I think we can all agree that the current payout system is flawed at the very least. I like the solutions we have here, lets hope they do something to improve this aspect of the game.