I'm confused. Why bannings wouldn't help here? This is already a format with one artificial limitation put in place to cause players to develop novel decks. If the rule simply means that chaff is being thrown in around the core cards of an existing deck, then the one artificial limitation isn't serving its purpose and it seems only natural that an additional bar is needed to supplement the existing one.
As this is a very manageably sized pool of games, bans could even be placed on particular card combinations themselves and enforced reactively should the cards ever be played together.
Restricting cards just means you have to also restrict tutors, and restricting all non-tribal cards just punishes players for using non-degenerative but unique cards that lack redundancy across the universe of magic cards.
And to KingRitz who says "play to win" -- that is a very narrow view of things. If playing particular decks kills the format, then your long term ability to even attempt to win is severely diminished. Further, shattering a norm against playing degenerative decks might come back to haunt you in the long run if you cannot build a deck that counters all or most of the new decks that emerge in response, resulting in random "deck wins" that do not reward skill. Finally, I would challenge the idea that unwritten rules are invalid. If you are drawing dead in game 3 of a match, and your opponent says "whew, glad we are almost done. I have to log off in five minutes." would you consider it not a breach to simply sit idle for the next 5 minutes to force a concession? I certainly would, though there may be no written rule regarding it. By your logic, any other play would mean that you should quit playing competitive magic because you lack the required chops to "do the least-fair thing" of which you can conceive.
Since it's a PRE, can't you guys come up with your own banned list? You can put grindstone, helm of obedience, whatever you want on there. Then you won't have to worry about people coming in with busted combo decks, and you will have set rules. I guess this is basically a short way of saying what others have already said, but just make your own rules until WOTC steps up. And it's looking like WOTC won't be stepping up anytime soon.
My thoughts:
1) This PRE is not an official tourney and the money amounts should not interest any serious player. If you are really avid about winning $4 then perhaps you aren't as serious as you think. Which means to my way of thinking that the tourney isn't really about the money. Were the prizes to improve my view point would change of course. I've placed in all the PREs I've attended and my income from them was merely enough to buy some commons/junk rares I needed for fun decks. (Those horrible allies which I wouldn't inflict on my fellow players, because I don't think they can win enough to be fun in tourney.)
2) I agree that if you play you should play with your best deck. It is after all a game not some life altering decision where ethics matter. On the other hand if the majority of players in the tourney spend the time to gather every weekend to have fun and you are there spoiling because you need that $4 credit well ...if it were me, my conscience would bother me a little. This is perhaps not the best place for a pure spike who needs to win at all costs.
3) Your point that there should be codified rules is where we see eye to eye. People should not feel constrained by unwritten and perhaps confusing rules just because there is a general consensus about how things should be done. If there really IS a consensus then write it down and stick to it. Well balanced rules are essential. If WotC won't step in we as a group should.
4) Those you call "dead weight losers" are the reason that MTGOtraders sponsors the event. They are a)potential customers, are b)taking this opportunity to grow as players and c) here to have fun. Competitive magic does not usually allow for weak players to flourish easily. This is perhaps a place where such players can improve their game. Your lack of tolerance here does you no credit. Flowers and bunnies or no. Better to just bring the good decks. You were the one who (incorrectly imho) chided me for genderist talk on the forums. Calling people "dead weight" and "losers" is certainly far more inflammatory no matter your private thoughts on the subject.
5) Your other point I agree with is that the challenge to Tribal Wars Classic is in part guessing correctly the current meta. If the likelihood is you will face aggro beaters then you need to prepare for them, combo the same. And no matter how much tech you add to your deck you are not guaranteed a timely answer to a quick combo. This leads to the point LE was making about the format being irredeemable. If combo is inevitable and unstoppable in the format then the format is by force dead though we don't recognize it yet. On the other hand if we have just not figured out how to build our decks to be competitive against it (I think some have: AJ and Bingo for example) then there is hope we can find a balance.
6) Not sure I agree with the solution of restricting all off-tribe cards but there are certainly quite a few (cf your list in the last article about this topic) that could stand restriction. Clearly SOME changes to the B/R list are needed.
I think splashing into Black for Dark Confident is a good idea I'd replace the Magus of the Scroll's
I also agree with you about Std tribal I've never touched it as the limtation of tribes would bore me very quickly as well.
Now on to the main part of your comment should we play to win or play to have fun. It's a very good question to bring up. Every player who enters for the first time will bring the best deck they can as they want to win as there are prizes on the line, minimal prizes yes but they are still prizes.
I think it's because of the small player base in these events that's throwing up the gentleman's rules as more than half the players are budget players of some sort or another.
If you step outside this and put power in you will stand out like a sore thumb and crush all the players in your way. This results in a very boring game for all players as I found out in the first event.
Which is why we have come to a mutal understanding of how far to go in deck building before we make it unfair for everyone else.
At the end of the day I play to have fun and that means more to me than a small prize. Put $50 dollars in the prize pool and I will have no problems in bringing the most broken deck I can make.
It's a deck building contest Hammy has created to get a paper standard deck list for $50 or under. The deck needs to be Pyromancer's Ascension + Traps. I think that covers it.
I really reject the whole "gentleman's rules" bent of this article. If people aren't going to play to win (and I mean REALLY play to win, not mincing silly "but my Allies are fun and 'competitive' too!" play to win), then you shouldn't be in a tournament, of any sort. And if you and a bunch of "gentlemen" like you ARE in a tournament, then *I* shouldn't be in that tournament. Unless there's money involved (which there is), and then *I* SHOULD be in that tournament with the most-broken, least-fair thing I can conceive.
By the way, Pithing Needle and Disenchant together fail to stop many combos, including Hypergenesis and Painter/Grindstone (since Painter + Pyroblast or Jaya kill it). At best, reactive will always mean guessing game, or relying on really unacceptable peer pressure. Maybe you guess right, but then you still lose to the hoard of dead weight losers with their stupid-aggro "fair" decks.
The only acceptable rules are written rules.
So again, if you really want a "fair" Tribal format, go with restricting all off-tribe cards. Otherwise, I wish all the dead weight players cluttering up these events would wise up and realize that the only two acceptable deck choices are (1) unfair or (2) don't play.
Also, can the Grindstone Humans deck splash into red for Dark Confidant? Would it be worth it? Alternatively, can it jump into LEDs and splash white to throw in the Salvagers combo as an alternate? Again, would it be worth it?
P.s. The idea of Standard Tribal bores me pretty much to tears.
I basically went to a bunch of sites and comparison shopped to get the best prices. None of the selected prices were out of stock or nearly out of stock so this should be very doable.
Rites is in for Big Flying Nuts Creatures like Baneslayer etc
Fallout/Pyroclasm come in for the aggro decks
Telemin comes in for Mill
The one thing that irked me about building this was there as no apparently good way to search for Ascension. I did manage to toss in snares to search for the traps. I wanted to make this more a counter deck with Mindbreaks but those cost a small fortune in paper so I went with weird ones instead in the guise of bounce and mass removal. Walls are your defense while you get your ascensions online and you have spot removal of varying types to hand threats. Again I wanted to throw in Time Warp x4 but the prices online seemed ridiculous. As it is it was a tough challenge to get the deck under $50.
I agree that you can't rely on a gentleman's agreement to keep the PRE's safe from 1-2 turn combos. In fact it is precisely for this reason that GoblinLackeyIsBlue managed to slip in a largely unopposed tier 1 deck. Nothing wrong with that. He broke no rules and was even apologetic about it which did irk me. (If I were the one accidentally breaking some unwritten rule about something like that and had been informed ahead of time about that I would have bowed out. But that is my personal code. My personal code has nothing do with the rest of reality.) What I would not do is apologize for doing it if I was OKAY with it.
I think the Classic Tribals PRE are not irredeemable despite the conversation LE and I had about this. Yes it is a pandora's box. Yes it does require some handling. I think it can be handled. The format needs some re-imagining. For one thing I also agree with AJ that you can't go around banning everything that might be a combo. Restrictions however can be an effect method for balancing it. This requires some serious discussion and maybe that isn't worth it.
ShardFenix is the guy running the event so it is ultimately in his hands. I for one won't show up for PRES if I am going to always be facing decks my collection can't handle.
Great writeup, and thanks for showing the games. I have some (hopefully) constructive criticism of your play.
I see you making a lot of slightly suboptimal plays with respect to tapping your mana to limit options before drawing off of Jace, playing lands before drawing off of Jace (and then drawing a better land, or a card that would make you want to play a different land, and playing Angelsong over Safe Passage when you have both in hand.
Against a deck without direct damage when you have both fogs, you should almost always play Safe Passage if you have the mana (unless, say, you have 2 Angelsong and 4 mana, and are worried about a counter). Having that extra mana available in a later turn, or the card to cycle when you need to draw an answer/trap/Font to get there can make the difference.
For example, game 2 vs. Jund, you tap all 3 islands to drop Jace, leaving just one blue up? What if you had drawn another Flash Freeze, there? If you'd tapped your mana better, you have a slightly bigger chance of winning that game.
In my experience playing this sort of deck, those will come back to haunt you. Winning with decks like this really is a game of inches, and maximizing your play by leaving options open is critical.
An excellent look at the Tribal revival of recent months. It is fascinating to look at the weekend player run event and the tribal leagues to see how they evolve, and very interesting to see that the elephant in the room of classic combos is acknowledged by being tacitly ignored. Collectively agreeing that 2-turn kills aren't acceptable is a viable but risky strategy, and I would advocate spelling out what is and isn't acceptable rather than hoping for the best. I very much agree with your assertion on Pithing needle: I made sure that the deck I ran in the past weekend's event had plenty of them, and the plan very nearly worked.
I am trying out the sanctified deck some, since I drafted esper pretty exclusively in SOA block. I wondered why Glassdusk Hulk is eschewed for the architects? Also, with a few more artifact creatures, my personal choice is arsenal thresher, ethersworn shieldmage is pretty slick. Is into the roil primarily used on your own creatures (gargoyle) to recur effects? If so, call to heel seems like a better choice, getting the creature and the card draw on the cheap. Love the info though!
I've been playing U/W pure control with some success, but I'm thinking of moving to this. One question is I need to budgetize a bit...I can easily afford the rest, but I don't want to cough up the dough for the Baneslayers. Do you think I can get away with playing Sphinx of Jwar Isle instead? It's really effective vs. Jund.
The best way to beat a combo deck like this is to out combo it, but then the tribe you use dosent really matter. This kind of defies the point in classic tribal in the first place.
Running anti dredge sideboard cards like leyline and crypt in your main deck can lose you more games than you win. The question is if no one plays dredge when you bring anti dredge cards you will be at a great disadvantage.
I don't believe you can fight combo in tribal as you wouldnt know what to hate against. If I was to play combo each week I wouldnt bring the same deck.
You know, I like the mill deck editing. I still remember it from the CCC and I'm actually considering using both as a base for the Mill deck I'm taking to Grand Prix. That's AWESOME that a mill deck went 6-0!! I knew it was useful!
I'm confused. Why bannings wouldn't help here? This is already a format with one artificial limitation put in place to cause players to develop novel decks. If the rule simply means that chaff is being thrown in around the core cards of an existing deck, then the one artificial limitation isn't serving its purpose and it seems only natural that an additional bar is needed to supplement the existing one.
As this is a very manageably sized pool of games, bans could even be placed on particular card combinations themselves and enforced reactively should the cards ever be played together.
Restricting cards just means you have to also restrict tutors, and restricting all non-tribal cards just punishes players for using non-degenerative but unique cards that lack redundancy across the universe of magic cards.
And to KingRitz who says "play to win" -- that is a very narrow view of things. If playing particular decks kills the format, then your long term ability to even attempt to win is severely diminished. Further, shattering a norm against playing degenerative decks might come back to haunt you in the long run if you cannot build a deck that counters all or most of the new decks that emerge in response, resulting in random "deck wins" that do not reward skill. Finally, I would challenge the idea that unwritten rules are invalid. If you are drawing dead in game 3 of a match, and your opponent says "whew, glad we are almost done. I have to log off in five minutes." would you consider it not a breach to simply sit idle for the next 5 minutes to force a concession? I certainly would, though there may be no written rule regarding it. By your logic, any other play would mean that you should quit playing competitive magic because you lack the required chops to "do the least-fair thing" of which you can conceive.
Since it's a PRE, can't you guys come up with your own banned list? You can put grindstone, helm of obedience, whatever you want on there. Then you won't have to worry about people coming in with busted combo decks, and you will have set rules. I guess this is basically a short way of saying what others have already said, but just make your own rules until WOTC steps up. And it's looking like WOTC won't be stepping up anytime soon.
*grins and points to a box of neglected paper cards sitting to his rear* yep ...you can but not sure why anyone would. :)
My thoughts:
1) This PRE is not an official tourney and the money amounts should not interest any serious player. If you are really avid about winning $4 then perhaps you aren't as serious as you think. Which means to my way of thinking that the tourney isn't really about the money. Were the prizes to improve my view point would change of course. I've placed in all the PREs I've attended and my income from them was merely enough to buy some commons/junk rares I needed for fun decks. (Those horrible allies which I wouldn't inflict on my fellow players, because I don't think they can win enough to be fun in tourney.)
2) I agree that if you play you should play with your best deck. It is after all a game not some life altering decision where ethics matter. On the other hand if the majority of players in the tourney spend the time to gather every weekend to have fun and you are there spoiling because you need that $4 credit well ...if it were me, my conscience would bother me a little. This is perhaps not the best place for a pure spike who needs to win at all costs.
3) Your point that there should be codified rules is where we see eye to eye. People should not feel constrained by unwritten and perhaps confusing rules just because there is a general consensus about how things should be done. If there really IS a consensus then write it down and stick to it. Well balanced rules are essential. If WotC won't step in we as a group should.
4) Those you call "dead weight losers" are the reason that MTGOtraders sponsors the event. They are a)potential customers, are b)taking this opportunity to grow as players and c) here to have fun. Competitive magic does not usually allow for weak players to flourish easily. This is perhaps a place where such players can improve their game. Your lack of tolerance here does you no credit. Flowers and bunnies or no. Better to just bring the good decks. You were the one who (incorrectly imho) chided me for genderist talk on the forums. Calling people "dead weight" and "losers" is certainly far more inflammatory no matter your private thoughts on the subject.
5) Your other point I agree with is that the challenge to Tribal Wars Classic is in part guessing correctly the current meta. If the likelihood is you will face aggro beaters then you need to prepare for them, combo the same. And no matter how much tech you add to your deck you are not guaranteed a timely answer to a quick combo. This leads to the point LE was making about the format being irredeemable. If combo is inevitable and unstoppable in the format then the format is by force dead though we don't recognize it yet. On the other hand if we have just not figured out how to build our decks to be competitive against it (I think some have: AJ and Bingo for example) then there is hope we can find a balance.
6) Not sure I agree with the solution of restricting all off-tribe cards but there are certainly quite a few (cf your list in the last article about this topic) that could stand restriction. Clearly SOME changes to the B/R list are needed.
paper? you mean you can play MTG with paper cards, na don't be silly that's blasphemy.
/me strokes his online collection
I think splashing into Black for Dark Confident is a good idea I'd replace the Magus of the Scroll's
I also agree with you about Std tribal I've never touched it as the limtation of tribes would bore me very quickly as well.
Now on to the main part of your comment should we play to win or play to have fun. It's a very good question to bring up. Every player who enters for the first time will bring the best deck they can as they want to win as there are prizes on the line, minimal prizes yes but they are still prizes.
I think it's because of the small player base in these events that's throwing up the gentleman's rules as more than half the players are budget players of some sort or another.
If you step outside this and put power in you will stand out like a sore thumb and crush all the players in your way. This results in a very boring game for all players as I found out in the first event.
Which is why we have come to a mutal understanding of how far to go in deck building before we make it unfair for everyone else.
At the end of the day I play to have fun and that means more to me than a small prize. Put $50 dollars in the prize pool and I will have no problems in bringing the most broken deck I can make.
It's a deck building contest Hammy has created to get a paper standard deck list for $50 or under. The deck needs to be Pyromancer's Ascension + Traps. I think that covers it.
I really reject the whole "gentleman's rules" bent of this article. If people aren't going to play to win (and I mean REALLY play to win, not mincing silly "but my Allies are fun and 'competitive' too!" play to win), then you shouldn't be in a tournament, of any sort. And if you and a bunch of "gentlemen" like you ARE in a tournament, then *I* shouldn't be in that tournament. Unless there's money involved (which there is), and then *I* SHOULD be in that tournament with the most-broken, least-fair thing I can conceive.
By the way, Pithing Needle and Disenchant together fail to stop many combos, including Hypergenesis and Painter/Grindstone (since Painter + Pyroblast or Jaya kill it). At best, reactive will always mean guessing game, or relying on really unacceptable peer pressure. Maybe you guess right, but then you still lose to the hoard of dead weight losers with their stupid-aggro "fair" decks.
The only acceptable rules are written rules.
So again, if you really want a "fair" Tribal format, go with restricting all off-tribe cards. Otherwise, I wish all the dead weight players cluttering up these events would wise up and realize that the only two acceptable deck choices are (1) unfair or (2) don't play.
Also, can the Grindstone Humans deck splash into red for Dark Confidant? Would it be worth it? Alternatively, can it jump into LEDs and splash white to throw in the Salvagers combo as an alternate? Again, would it be worth it?
P.s. The idea of Standard Tribal bores me pretty much to tears.
What's the deck contest about? I must have missed this some how although I don't usually have time to listen to the pod cast.
Hammy's deck contest updated list
4x Pyromancer Ascension 1.49 x 4 = ($5.96)
4x Mind Spring (.99 x 4) ($3.96) (could also be Divination x4 since that helps Ascension.)
4x Fireball (.25 x4) ($1)
4x Burst Lightning (.25 x4) ($1)
3x Lightning Bolt (1.49x3) ($4.5)
4x Punishing Fire (49. x4) = ($2)
3x Whiplash Trap (.09 x3) = ($0.27)
3x Lavaball Trap (.75 x3) = ($2.75)
3x Trapmaker's Snare (.25 x3) = (.75)
4x Expedition Map (.09 x4) = (.36)
4x Terramorphic Expanse (.49 x4) ($2)
4x Crumbling Necropolis (1 x 4) ($4)
6x mountain --
10x island --
main deck cost: $26.47
side
4x Rite of Replication ($1.12 x4) ($4.48)
3x Volcanic Fallout ($3x3) ($9)
4x Pyroclasm (1.49 x4) ($6)
4x Telemin Performance (.74 x4) ($3)
sideboard cost 22.48
total cost $48.95
I basically went to a bunch of sites and comparison shopped to get the best prices. None of the selected prices were out of stock or nearly out of stock so this should be very doable.
Rites is in for Big Flying Nuts Creatures like Baneslayer etc
Fallout/Pyroclasm come in for the aggro decks
Telemin comes in for Mill
The one thing that irked me about building this was there as no apparently good way to search for Ascension. I did manage to toss in snares to search for the traps. I wanted to make this more a counter deck with Mindbreaks but those cost a small fortune in paper so I went with weird ones instead in the guise of bounce and mass removal. Walls are your defense while you get your ascensions online and you have spot removal of varying types to hand threats. Again I wanted to throw in Time Warp x4 but the prices online seemed ridiculous. As it is it was a tough challenge to get the deck under $50.
Good point about the ban lists.. I hope someone from WotC reads this..
I agree that you can't rely on a gentleman's agreement to keep the PRE's safe from 1-2 turn combos. In fact it is precisely for this reason that GoblinLackeyIsBlue managed to slip in a largely unopposed tier 1 deck. Nothing wrong with that. He broke no rules and was even apologetic about it which did irk me. (If I were the one accidentally breaking some unwritten rule about something like that and had been informed ahead of time about that I would have bowed out. But that is my personal code. My personal code has nothing do with the rest of reality.) What I would not do is apologize for doing it if I was OKAY with it.
I think the Classic Tribals PRE are not irredeemable despite the conversation LE and I had about this. Yes it is a pandora's box. Yes it does require some handling. I think it can be handled. The format needs some re-imagining. For one thing I also agree with AJ that you can't go around banning everything that might be a combo. Restrictions however can be an effect method for balancing it. This requires some serious discussion and maybe that isn't worth it.
ShardFenix is the guy running the event so it is ultimately in his hands. I for one won't show up for PRES if I am going to always be facing decks my collection can't handle.
no meloku was most definitelya guy, Uyo was the female moonfolk card.
The flavor text states that meloku is a He, not sure could be wrong
Great writeup, and thanks for showing the games. I have some (hopefully) constructive criticism of your play.
I see you making a lot of slightly suboptimal plays with respect to tapping your mana to limit options before drawing off of Jace, playing lands before drawing off of Jace (and then drawing a better land, or a card that would make you want to play a different land, and playing Angelsong over Safe Passage when you have both in hand.
Against a deck without direct damage when you have both fogs, you should almost always play Safe Passage if you have the mana (unless, say, you have 2 Angelsong and 4 mana, and are worried about a counter). Having that extra mana available in a later turn, or the card to cycle when you need to draw an answer/trap/Font to get there can make the difference.
For example, game 2 vs. Jund, you tap all 3 islands to drop Jace, leaving just one blue up? What if you had drawn another Flash Freeze, there? If you'd tapped your mana better, you have a slightly bigger chance of winning that game.
In my experience playing this sort of deck, those will come back to haunt you. Winning with decks like this really is a game of inches, and maximizing your play by leaving options open is critical.
Good luck
An excellent look at the Tribal revival of recent months. It is fascinating to look at the weekend player run event and the tribal leagues to see how they evolve, and very interesting to see that the elephant in the room of classic combos is acknowledged by being tacitly ignored. Collectively agreeing that 2-turn kills aren't acceptable is a viable but risky strategy, and I would advocate spelling out what is and isn't acceptable rather than hoping for the best. I very much agree with your assertion on Pithing needle: I made sure that the deck I ran in the past weekend's event had plenty of them, and the plan very nearly worked.
*that's* the one! Stupid card is stupid... Great card in limited though, and yeah, locks out a game very fast. Ugh.
I am trying out the sanctified deck some, since I drafted esper pretty exclusively in SOA block. I wondered why Glassdusk Hulk is eschewed for the architects? Also, with a few more artifact creatures, my personal choice is arsenal thresher, ethersworn shieldmage is pretty slick. Is into the roil primarily used on your own creatures (gargoyle) to recur effects? If so, call to heel seems like a better choice, getting the creature and the card draw on the cheap. Love the info though!
I've been playing U/W pure control with some success, but I'm thinking of moving to this. One question is I need to budgetize a bit...I can easily afford the rest, but I don't want to cough up the dough for the Baneslayers. Do you think I can get away with playing Sphinx of Jwar Isle instead? It's really effective vs. Jund.
You lost to Equilibrium. It's a power house in limited!
or shard if you remember my old rats and or zombie decks they did a good job of hating out Dredge as well:)
Zombies got carrion feeder after all.
The best way to beat a combo deck like this is to out combo it, but then the tribe you use dosent really matter. This kind of defies the point in classic tribal in the first place.
Running anti dredge sideboard cards like leyline and crypt in your main deck can lose you more games than you win. The question is if no one plays dredge when you bring anti dredge cards you will be at a great disadvantage.
I don't believe you can fight combo in tribal as you wouldnt know what to hate against. If I was to play combo each week I wouldnt bring the same deck.
see here is my thinking...if you have to play a particular tribe to void a deck that dominates you are already falling into a trap with no exit.
You know, I like the mill deck editing. I still remember it from the CCC and I'm actually considering using both as a base for the Mill deck I'm taking to Grand Prix. That's AWESOME that a mill deck went 6-0!! I knew it was useful!
-Sam
I've never had that before because I am terrified of food poisoning, but that looks great