No offense but I don't think this was an example of quality drafting.
P1P1: Paladin is one of the hardest creatures to cast in this format, 2 color only works about 1/3 of the time and when splashing a 3rd color you're only going to get him down turn 2 1 game out of 5. The thrinax is an efficiently costed 2 for 1, and the strix is the best card for UB in the set. They're in the best archetypes and just better.
P1P2: I don't like forcing WU, but even if you do, fatestitcher is rarely a great card for your deck. You'll have plenty of exalted/fliers, so tappers are not as important as aggressive beaters. I think knight is the best follow up since you already took sigiled paladin
P1P3: Wave is bad. I don't even play this card if I draft it. Hedge bets with mosstodon or fleshbag.
P1P5: I don't see how you can take wave and 'force' first 4 picks then take a BB card. Starting from here you lose sight of your base colors.
P1P10: This card is unplayable after M10, take excommunicate.
P3P1: Seems to me you're in UBw control. This guy is ok in this deck on turn 2, but very hard to get down on turn 2. Take the manipulation.
P3P3: Demon is playable but not very good. Grimblade is a great defensive creature and the sure pick.
P3P4: Again, very bad for your deck. Sewn eye, remnant, and even borderpost are better.
P3P5: Manipulation
P3P8: Foundry is not very good post-M10, take plowbeast this time.
Final Deck: Why would you only play 16 lands with only 1 cycler? You have plenty of mana hogs, 17 is the minimum here. You didn't play a lot of the cards you drafted highly (like vis over outlander, infest, etc) instead choosing to play a very mediocre WUb aggro deck with guardians, protomatter, etc and a mediocre manabase with a large splash that you can't really support. Play the plea too, it's good.
I don't think you were actually paying attention to the type of deck you were playing. You were not in aggro, you were in UBw control due to your curve/mana (bad mana means you should play cyclers and defense early game while getting to power cards like infest/adjudicator/slavedriver), but you never tried to maximize your game winning cards.
There's certainly cards I'd be happy to third-pick rather than an illusory demon. I just don't know that Talon Trooper is one of them. He's even easier to race. Grixis Grimblade is ok too, but he's not my favorite of the blades, I'd rather have the flying one than the deathtouch guy, especially in a fast agressive deck like I was trying for. The demon certainly performed decently for me this time out, and I've always liked him.
I wasn't trying to lean towards artifacts quite as heavily as I was trying to lean towards good aggressive 2 & 3 drops. The Ethercaste Knights and the Vedalken Outlanders are just quality 2 drops that I'd want even if I had zero artifact synergy going. The former for his exalted and bear-blocking toughness, the latter for protection from red. This particular draft I ended up facing red opponents in all three rounds, so one or two more Outlander would have been great!
As it happened, though, I had more reasons to lean towards artifacts than just the Faerie Mechanist. Sludge Strider benefits from having 'em, and the more artifact creatures I have in play the more potential "free" damage I can do by flashing out Ethersworn Shieldmage after the other guy declares attacks & then blocking with every artifact body I have. Among my lower quality cards, there's also value to higher artifact density for the Thopter Foundry, Court Homunculus, and Protomatter Powder. If I had taken the Thresher you suggest, that's even one more reason to lean towards artifact picks. Most cards in the deck I would have picked anyway though, even the Etherium Abomination is a reasonably solid card because of its Unearth. I still have doubts about thresher though - he's a maybe 4 power guy, whereas Illusionary Demon and Etherium Abomination are both *always* a 4 power guy, with bonuses (flying or unearth). Also in a deck deliberately loaded up with 1-3 drop guys, there's more chance of my hand being emptied before I play the Thresh. Or having to give up tempo to make him big, which isn't great either.
It does depend a lot on deck archetypes. I wouldn't want the Court Homunculus unless I was trying to swarm in a lot of damage early, he's good for that. In a slower paced, more controlling Esper deck with more big guys and tricks, the Thresher would look a lot better, and the Homunculus worse. I do think Wizards has been moving more towards blocks where quick weenie rush decks are good lately. Of course that pendulum will probably swing back towards control decks in another year or three - I guess we'll see!
Hey i saw four rooms and liked it, but Tarantino stole the story from a Roald Dahl short story, think its called: The Man From the South.
Nice drat walkthrough, i disagreed with some picks, but i really like they way you convey information and ask whats the optimal plays are and such. Makes it more interesting to read than just a plain description of the draft. Good work:)
That was such a bad draft table. Horrible. Since not many people like going grix I wouldve grabbed the Strix as it an awesome card and the only worthy card. I rate it much higher than the knight. I dont want double cost on a 2drop in ACR. Id take it as a non-1st pick. You wouldve had a monster deck if you went Grixis. Pick 5 Infest... Ridiculous. I stopped playing ACR after M10 came out because people dont draft accordingly. ANd even less accordingly since Zen came out.
If an 84 would fill up when Im on I wouldnt mind joining though.
Aww, no one loves Spikeweaver anymore.
It's worth mentioning both Null Broach and Erratic Portal are good in Commander. By the time you have a Null Broach out in a Commander game, often you will not have a hand. The artifact becomes tap + pay 2 = counter target noncreature spell. Erratic Portal is similar to Crystal Shard, great on your own creatures for Equilibrium-esq effects in any deck.
A lot of the cards here are, dare I say it, overpriced. The actual cost of the deck if you shopped around could probably be cut by around $5-$10, which would be nice because then you could have Terramorphic Expanse and maybe even Crumbling Necropolis. The aim of the deck is simple, kill your opponent with Runeflare Trap. This might sound ridiculous but between all the bounce and Howling Mine your opponent often has a full hand, and both Howling Mine and Call to Heel help fulfill the trap condition. With an active Pyromancer Ascension, one Runeflare Trap can take down an opponent from 20 (usually on their draw step). The maindeck is focused on beating aggro but the sideboard allows for a small transformation for taking on control. Volcanic Submersion is an odd choice but you can cycle it early then hit a land later and get a counter on your Ascension. That said, Spreading Seas might just be outright better. I think one Lavaball Trap is enough as multiples are usually disastrous and you can search it up if need be. If you are feeling particularly brave, you can even Archive Trap yourself just to make getting an active Ascension that much easier. The deck is not going to win tournaments anytime soon (or ever) but it's fun to play.
While I like the excitement of seeing Mana Bond do ridiculous things; withotu Rishadan Port and Maze of Ith to slow the tide of creatures attackin, the Land deck is still Tier 3.
It's like playing Aggro Loam without Mox Diamond - it's doable, but you're really playing with a crippled deck.
IT looks really good, but he's fairy easy to race.
You drop him, they drop multiple dudes you cant block.
They smash your face, and kill the demon just before it kills them.
Result
They have a developed board and you on a low life.
THey have a low life total, but you have no board.....
Don't get me wrong, I have played him and he can be awesome, just not third pick worthly imho.
YOu also seem artifact obsessed after something underwhelming as a Faerie Mechanist.
Thresher is far from medioce with enough artifact.
Even as a 4/4 he's great ( Rhox Brute in shard with the worst ground creatures?)
Homunculus? Come on, it;s a bear IF you are really lucky ( a bear being a 2/2 on turn 2)
More often he's a 1/1 or 2/2 from turn 3 or 4.
And they can mess with you by killing an artifact guy during combat.
I know most people have it banned in their EDH games because is a broken redudent combo in a Rith deck with Eternal Witness retrieving board sweepers and using Genesis to get Witness back every turn. As for HellKite Overlord, it's suspectable to Hydroblast and Blue elemental blasts, which pop up every now and then in boards. You'll normally have at least 2-3 sideboards in a 5 round tournie that'll run 2x of them. You'll see the builds though, some people think Oath is to slow in Vintage right now, but I think it's actually fair in Classic.
Well I have really enjoyed this article and the comments that go with it
so my 2 bits worth
First I would hate to have just extended pool... I would not be able to play me beloved slivers and like std would lose the Varity that we have now
Second, Pretty much directed at Shard. I know we haven't had a dominate combo deck but we have had them and by banning about 10 cards it would really help the format and our PRE, how many more people read this site and know about the PRE but choose not to enter because as we debate about Spikes and combo each week.
On Saturday I knew I could not win the final there was no way my deck had the tools to beat it unless I pulled a 4 cards in my opening hand and only then if he kicked off turn 2 and I went first.
How do you think a new player to the PRE would feel if that was what his first game was like...
If I had played that in the first round in my first Tribes PRE I doubt I would have played again it.
As has been said after the first weeks the combo calmed down and we got down to critter decks, the banning’s would keep it that way to a Format we all want, like and enjoy.
no third point :)
So I say to anyone who wants to enter please do and join us for a very friendly game of Tribes just leave your broken decks at home and enjoy magic as it was intended …. A social fun friendly game
And this is where I draw the line. As stated in the comment two down, the events aren't being run for any serious money, so there really is no point in Spiking out and playing the most absurd thing money can buy. I'm a competitive player too, playing FNMs with Heartbeat Combo, Dredge, and lately 5 Color Cascade. I am not averse to playing an "unfair" deck, unless it takes away from the purpose of a more casual format. You don't play Classic Tribal Wars because you want to play a big, broken Classic tournament. That's why people play Classic PEs and Dailys. You play Classic Tribal Wars to take Tribal decks to their logical extremes, seeing how high the Tribal power level can go. If it's a PRE, there's no need to play like your life and credentials are on the line.
People that play like this in events where it isn't warranted anger me greatly. If you really want to play a broken deck that has an edge on the field, spend your time and money learning how to break real formats, rather than trying to prey on people who just want to have a little fun.
I just bought 10 Forbidden Orchards, aaah speculation! Thanks for reminding me ;)
About the choice of creatures for Oath, I would be curious to see your decklists next week. Tidespout Tyrant seems less strong a choice without the jewelry to go crazy with it. Similarly, Darksteel Colossus is a consideration only if backed up with Tinker, which would need some adaptations (Chrome Mox, artifact lands?).
You also forget Hellkite Overlord, which seems a tad better than Progenitus, killing in 2 turns is better than in 3 ;)
I like the Idea of tribal Extended for some reason, Though I would be cut off from my beloved Barbarian, and Thrulls I think that this could be the right anserw for the problem. But we should not just abondon the problem with Classic Tribal Wars we should instend figure out how to inprove the enviroment for players.
I totally agree 100% with this post from LE, I'd prefer to play in option's two environment as it is more fun and dare I say casual. To see allies triumph over the classic tribes was a good day.
Everyone knows the broken decks and if you don't then you wont have to worry because you more than likley wont have found one yet.
I prefer to play with a good group of people and have a fun time rather than play four rounds of solitare... for a $4 prize.
Thanks everybody for the comments. I already said what I had to say in the article but I think I should also say one final thing. For this PRE, we have two options:
1- No extra rules. Just like KingRitz says "the only rules are the written ones".
2- Or some kind of protection for players with budget problems, or players who are there to have fun mainly, or for new players who come to the PRE to see what it is all about.
And now let's see... I'm personally fine with option-1. I have the budget, the cards, the decks, the ability and the will to compete in such a cutthroat environment. Bring your best; I won't be expecting anything less from my opponents because I will do the same.
But then answer me this: How many players will we have in the PRE? How many new players will this option-1 draw to this event and how many will it scare off? We don't have 500 players regularly playing every Saturday. We started with 6-7 people and now are 10-ish. How many players would we have left if we agree to option-1? 4? 3? Or 5 maybe?
But if we agree to option-2 on the other hand, we can attract more people. For example Paul wasen't with us during the first weeks but then joined us and I know that he has issues with his collection. And he's just an example. There are many such players. What is our aim now? To draw more players like Paul into the format or to scare them?
I personally would prefer to see 20+ players every Saturday playing Tribal Wars and watch one of them win with a Standard legal Allies deck, rather then sitting there with the best deck in my hand but no one to play against.
So yes, option-2 it is. At least for me and as long as others agree to it too.
I still think Extended might be better than classic for a healthy environment. Yes you can still play dredge but some of the sicker components go missing. If it is still a problem you can by force ban Bridge. Sensei's Divining Top is already banned (sadly) and extended tends to be a not broken format to begin with. With the tribal strictures it looks a little better. That said I know some of our players would miss out on the funkier tribes that only exist in classic so there is a trade off.
To put it succinctly, the player pool we have for these events is not large enough for the format to be allowed to evolved into a spike hardcore playing the best possible decks. We simply do not have the numbers to support that, and even those with the werewithal to play the best decks do not enjoy playing them. The EV for them is essentially negative, as the intangible value 'fun' is a large part of the appeal of this event. In order to keep the EV high enough to keep attracting enough people to make running the event worthwhile, we need to ensure that intangible doesn't get eroded.
I do strongly agree with you on written rules, though I am somewhat torn on the question of bannings. Firstly, there are far too many possible quick win options to be able to get them all, as you quite rightly pointed out. Secondly, I am on the whole in favour of as short and clean a banned list as is possible, with an emphasis on consistency which is currently lacking.
I'm very much a proponent of unfairness when money is on the line, as my opponents in the old Natural Selection or current World of Kedoria can attest. However, unfairness is a broad category: In a combo metagame, someone with a tribal deck that dedicates their noncreature slots to disrupting combo and their creature slots to winning the game through a 'stupid-aggro' strategy could well benefit. The trick lies in reading the metagame, and designing accordingly to deal with it, no matter what that metagame consists of.
I agree with InNeutral's playing to win comments, its probably just me, but ive never played to win...Do i like winning? of course who doesnt. But i dont think winning is necessary to validate fun, and that is what im offering here...fun
1) As far as bannings go I have previously stated that if any one archetype becoms overpowering then bannings will be considered. So far we have only had a few times when a deck totally dominated the tournament, but most if not all of the players realize, hey I'm playing Helm-Line against treefolk, Allies, and Horses... They realize the PRE is more about fun and getting together to play tribal classic.
2) There are more combos in classic than are worth banning then you get into the arguments of what to ban. Sure we could ban Helm-Line and Painter's Stone, but what do you ban from dredge? It wrecked extended without Bazaar of Baghdad so that is not the answer, and was playable before Bridge from Below was printed if I'm remembering Friggorid correctly. What about elves? Do we through out SquirrelCraft and Glimpse of Nature? Or maybe Countertop?
3) Also the intention of this in my mind was never to establish any type of hardcore metagame for classic tribal. After reading AJ_Impy's and LordErman's debate articles, I saw a void of anything tribal based online and figured some players would appreciate a casual/competitive environment to play this format in. Its honestly not for hardcore spikes, but then its not for total non-spikes. Its an event held mostly for fun with a chance to win a small amount of tix as compensation. I mean normally 1st gets $4 in credit. I've placed in prizes before and I just buy random rares like Ascensions and such.
4) Now if anyone has any ideas as far as "fixing" the format, then I would love to hear them. Yeah I get Standard may be viable but the format I think would to quickly evolve into best deck 1, 2, and 3. Smaller card pools greatly restrict the amount of innovation thats possible.
Good article.
Mind over Matter will be played in EDH. It combos in one of the strongest decks in the format, Azami...
No offense but I don't think this was an example of quality drafting.
P1P1: Paladin is one of the hardest creatures to cast in this format, 2 color only works about 1/3 of the time and when splashing a 3rd color you're only going to get him down turn 2 1 game out of 5. The thrinax is an efficiently costed 2 for 1, and the strix is the best card for UB in the set. They're in the best archetypes and just better.
P1P2: I don't like forcing WU, but even if you do, fatestitcher is rarely a great card for your deck. You'll have plenty of exalted/fliers, so tappers are not as important as aggressive beaters. I think knight is the best follow up since you already took sigiled paladin
P1P3: Wave is bad. I don't even play this card if I draft it. Hedge bets with mosstodon or fleshbag.
P1P5: I don't see how you can take wave and 'force' first 4 picks then take a BB card. Starting from here you lose sight of your base colors.
P1P10: This card is unplayable after M10, take excommunicate.
P3P1: Seems to me you're in UBw control. This guy is ok in this deck on turn 2, but very hard to get down on turn 2. Take the manipulation.
P3P3: Demon is playable but not very good. Grimblade is a great defensive creature and the sure pick.
P3P4: Again, very bad for your deck. Sewn eye, remnant, and even borderpost are better.
P3P5: Manipulation
P3P8: Foundry is not very good post-M10, take plowbeast this time.
Final Deck: Why would you only play 16 lands with only 1 cycler? You have plenty of mana hogs, 17 is the minimum here. You didn't play a lot of the cards you drafted highly (like vis over outlander, infest, etc) instead choosing to play a very mediocre WUb aggro deck with guardians, protomatter, etc and a mediocre manabase with a large splash that you can't really support. Play the plea too, it's good.
I don't think you were actually paying attention to the type of deck you were playing. You were not in aggro, you were in UBw control due to your curve/mana (bad mana means you should play cyclers and defense early game while getting to power cards like infest/adjudicator/slavedriver), but you never tried to maximize your game winning cards.
There's certainly cards I'd be happy to third-pick rather than an illusory demon. I just don't know that Talon Trooper is one of them. He's even easier to race. Grixis Grimblade is ok too, but he's not my favorite of the blades, I'd rather have the flying one than the deathtouch guy, especially in a fast agressive deck like I was trying for. The demon certainly performed decently for me this time out, and I've always liked him.
I wasn't trying to lean towards artifacts quite as heavily as I was trying to lean towards good aggressive 2 & 3 drops. The Ethercaste Knights and the Vedalken Outlanders are just quality 2 drops that I'd want even if I had zero artifact synergy going. The former for his exalted and bear-blocking toughness, the latter for protection from red. This particular draft I ended up facing red opponents in all three rounds, so one or two more Outlander would have been great!
As it happened, though, I had more reasons to lean towards artifacts than just the Faerie Mechanist. Sludge Strider benefits from having 'em, and the more artifact creatures I have in play the more potential "free" damage I can do by flashing out Ethersworn Shieldmage after the other guy declares attacks & then blocking with every artifact body I have. Among my lower quality cards, there's also value to higher artifact density for the Thopter Foundry, Court Homunculus, and Protomatter Powder. If I had taken the Thresher you suggest, that's even one more reason to lean towards artifact picks. Most cards in the deck I would have picked anyway though, even the Etherium Abomination is a reasonably solid card because of its Unearth. I still have doubts about thresher though - he's a maybe 4 power guy, whereas Illusionary Demon and Etherium Abomination are both *always* a 4 power guy, with bonuses (flying or unearth). Also in a deck deliberately loaded up with 1-3 drop guys, there's more chance of my hand being emptied before I play the Thresh. Or having to give up tempo to make him big, which isn't great either.
It does depend a lot on deck archetypes. I wouldn't want the Court Homunculus unless I was trying to swarm in a lot of damage early, he's good for that. In a slower paced, more controlling Esper deck with more big guys and tricks, the Thresher would look a lot better, and the Homunculus worse. I do think Wizards has been moving more towards blocks where quick weenie rush decks are good lately. Of course that pendulum will probably swing back towards control decks in another year or three - I guess we'll see!
Hey i saw four rooms and liked it, but Tarantino stole the story from a Roald Dahl short story, think its called: The Man From the South.
Nice drat walkthrough, i disagreed with some picks, but i really like they way you convey information and ask whats the optimal plays are and such. Makes it more interesting to read than just a plain description of the draft. Good work:)
That was such a bad draft table. Horrible. Since not many people like going grix I wouldve grabbed the Strix as it an awesome card and the only worthy card. I rate it much higher than the knight. I dont want double cost on a 2drop in ACR. Id take it as a non-1st pick. You wouldve had a monster deck if you went Grixis. Pick 5 Infest... Ridiculous. I stopped playing ACR after M10 came out because people dont draft accordingly. ANd even less accordingly since Zen came out.
If an 84 would fill up when Im on I wouldnt mind joining though.
Nice! Keep them coming.
Aww, no one loves Spikeweaver anymore.
It's worth mentioning both Null Broach and Erratic Portal are good in Commander. By the time you have a Null Broach out in a Commander game, often you will not have a hand. The artifact becomes tap + pay 2 = counter target noncreature spell. Erratic Portal is similar to Crystal Shard, great on your own creatures for Equilibrium-esq effects in any deck.
Hi, I don't know if i'm too late but what the hell, here's my deck anyway. All prices are from a popular paper magic singles website.
Maindeck
--------
12 Island
10 Mountain
4 Burst Lightning ($2)
4 Howling Mine ($12)
4 Pyromancer Ascension ($10)
2 Pyroclasm ($3)
4 Call to Heel ($0.60)
4 Into the Roil ($1)
4 Trapmaker's Snare ($1.20)
4 Double Negative ($2)
4 Whiplash Trap ($0.60)
4 Runeflare Trap ($1.20)
--------
Sideboard
--------
4 Archive Trap ($12)
4 Spell Pierce ($1)
4 Volcanic Submersion ($0.60)
2 Pyroclasm ($3)
1 Lavaball Trap ($0.75)
--------
Total Cost = $49.95
A lot of the cards here are, dare I say it, overpriced. The actual cost of the deck if you shopped around could probably be cut by around $5-$10, which would be nice because then you could have Terramorphic Expanse and maybe even Crumbling Necropolis. The aim of the deck is simple, kill your opponent with Runeflare Trap. This might sound ridiculous but between all the bounce and Howling Mine your opponent often has a full hand, and both Howling Mine and Call to Heel help fulfill the trap condition. With an active Pyromancer Ascension, one Runeflare Trap can take down an opponent from 20 (usually on their draw step). The maindeck is focused on beating aggro but the sideboard allows for a small transformation for taking on control. Volcanic Submersion is an odd choice but you can cycle it early then hit a land later and get a counter on your Ascension. That said, Spreading Seas might just be outright better. I think one Lavaball Trap is enough as multiples are usually disastrous and you can search it up if need be. If you are feeling particularly brave, you can even Archive Trap yourself just to make getting an active Ascension that much easier. The deck is not going to win tournaments anytime soon (or ever) but it's fun to play.
While I like the excitement of seeing Mana Bond do ridiculous things; withotu Rishadan Port and Maze of Ith to slow the tide of creatures attackin, the Land deck is still Tier 3.
It's like playing Aggro Loam without Mox Diamond - it's doable, but you're really playing with a crippled deck.
Does the deck Hammy wants need to be RU?
The Flying Demon tables more often than not.
IT looks really good, but he's fairy easy to race.
You drop him, they drop multiple dudes you cant block.
They smash your face, and kill the demon just before it kills them.
Result
They have a developed board and you on a low life.
THey have a low life total, but you have no board.....
Don't get me wrong, I have played him and he can be awesome, just not third pick worthly imho.
YOu also seem artifact obsessed after something underwhelming as a Faerie Mechanist.
Thresher is far from medioce with enough artifact.
Even as a 4/4 he's great ( Rhox Brute in shard with the worst ground creatures?)
Homunculus? Come on, it;s a bear IF you are really lucky ( a bear being a 2/2 on turn 2)
More often he's a 1/1 or 2/2 from turn 3 or 4.
And they can mess with you by killing an artifact guy during combat.
I know most people have it banned in their EDH games because is a broken redudent combo in a Rith deck with Eternal Witness retrieving board sweepers and using Genesis to get Witness back every turn. As for HellKite Overlord, it's suspectable to Hydroblast and Blue elemental blasts, which pop up every now and then in boards. You'll normally have at least 2-3 sideboards in a 5 round tournie that'll run 2x of them. You'll see the builds though, some people think Oath is to slow in Vintage right now, but I think it's actually fair in Classic.
Survival of the Fittest is not banned in paper EDH, thus it won't be banned in commander. It's a must-own card for players of that format.
Well I have really enjoyed this article and the comments that go with it
so my 2 bits worth
First I would hate to have just extended pool... I would not be able to play me beloved slivers and like std would lose the Varity that we have now
Second, Pretty much directed at Shard. I know we haven't had a dominate combo deck but we have had them and by banning about 10 cards it would really help the format and our PRE, how many more people read this site and know about the PRE but choose not to enter because as we debate about Spikes and combo each week.
On Saturday I knew I could not win the final there was no way my deck had the tools to beat it unless I pulled a 4 cards in my opening hand and only then if he kicked off turn 2 and I went first.
How do you think a new player to the PRE would feel if that was what his first game was like...
If I had played that in the first round in my first Tribes PRE I doubt I would have played again it.
As has been said after the first weeks the combo calmed down and we got down to critter decks, the banning’s would keep it that way to a Format we all want, like and enjoy.
no third point :)
So I say to anyone who wants to enter please do and join us for a very friendly game of Tribes just leave your broken decks at home and enjoy magic as it was intended …. A social fun friendly game
Bingobongo….
And no I not Italian
And this is where I draw the line. As stated in the comment two down, the events aren't being run for any serious money, so there really is no point in Spiking out and playing the most absurd thing money can buy. I'm a competitive player too, playing FNMs with Heartbeat Combo, Dredge, and lately 5 Color Cascade. I am not averse to playing an "unfair" deck, unless it takes away from the purpose of a more casual format. You don't play Classic Tribal Wars because you want to play a big, broken Classic tournament. That's why people play Classic PEs and Dailys. You play Classic Tribal Wars to take Tribal decks to their logical extremes, seeing how high the Tribal power level can go. If it's a PRE, there's no need to play like your life and credentials are on the line.
People that play like this in events where it isn't warranted anger me greatly. If you really want to play a broken deck that has an edge on the field, spend your time and money learning how to break real formats, rather than trying to prey on people who just want to have a little fun.
I just bought 10 Forbidden Orchards, aaah speculation! Thanks for reminding me ;)
About the choice of creatures for Oath, I would be curious to see your decklists next week. Tidespout Tyrant seems less strong a choice without the jewelry to go crazy with it. Similarly, Darksteel Colossus is a consideration only if backed up with Tinker, which would need some adaptations (Chrome Mox, artifact lands?).
You also forget Hellkite Overlord, which seems a tad better than Progenitus, killing in 2 turns is better than in 3 ;)
I like the Idea of tribal Extended for some reason, Though I would be cut off from my beloved Barbarian, and Thrulls I think that this could be the right anserw for the problem. But we should not just abondon the problem with Classic Tribal Wars we should instend figure out how to inprove the enviroment for players.
I totally agree 100% with this post from LE, I'd prefer to play in option's two environment as it is more fun and dare I say casual. To see allies triumph over the classic tribes was a good day.
Everyone knows the broken decks and if you don't then you wont have to worry because you more than likley wont have found one yet.
I prefer to play with a good group of people and have a fun time rather than play four rounds of solitare... for a $4 prize.
Thanks everybody for the comments. I already said what I had to say in the article but I think I should also say one final thing. For this PRE, we have two options:
1- No extra rules. Just like KingRitz says "the only rules are the written ones".
2- Or some kind of protection for players with budget problems, or players who are there to have fun mainly, or for new players who come to the PRE to see what it is all about.
And now let's see... I'm personally fine with option-1. I have the budget, the cards, the decks, the ability and the will to compete in such a cutthroat environment. Bring your best; I won't be expecting anything less from my opponents because I will do the same.
But then answer me this: How many players will we have in the PRE? How many new players will this option-1 draw to this event and how many will it scare off? We don't have 500 players regularly playing every Saturday. We started with 6-7 people and now are 10-ish. How many players would we have left if we agree to option-1? 4? 3? Or 5 maybe?
But if we agree to option-2 on the other hand, we can attract more people. For example Paul wasen't with us during the first weeks but then joined us and I know that he has issues with his collection. And he's just an example. There are many such players. What is our aim now? To draw more players like Paul into the format or to scare them?
I personally would prefer to see 20+ players every Saturday playing Tribal Wars and watch one of them win with a Standard legal Allies deck, rather then sitting there with the best deck in my hand but no one to play against.
So yes, option-2 it is. At least for me and as long as others agree to it too.
And thanks again for all the comments.
LE
deck needs ponder
how do you guys feel about people that play more than one game of magic online with the whole stop and go play?
I still think Extended might be better than classic for a healthy environment. Yes you can still play dredge but some of the sicker components go missing. If it is still a problem you can by force ban Bridge. Sensei's Divining Top is already banned (sadly) and extended tends to be a not broken format to begin with. With the tribal strictures it looks a little better. That said I know some of our players would miss out on the funkier tribes that only exist in classic so there is a trade off.
Pete Jahn wrote an excellent article on the heart of the matter here: http://puremtgo.com/articles/fun-spikes-and-death-formats
To put it succinctly, the player pool we have for these events is not large enough for the format to be allowed to evolved into a spike hardcore playing the best possible decks. We simply do not have the numbers to support that, and even those with the werewithal to play the best decks do not enjoy playing them. The EV for them is essentially negative, as the intangible value 'fun' is a large part of the appeal of this event. In order to keep the EV high enough to keep attracting enough people to make running the event worthwhile, we need to ensure that intangible doesn't get eroded.
I do strongly agree with you on written rules, though I am somewhat torn on the question of bannings. Firstly, there are far too many possible quick win options to be able to get them all, as you quite rightly pointed out. Secondly, I am on the whole in favour of as short and clean a banned list as is possible, with an emphasis on consistency which is currently lacking.
I'm very much a proponent of unfairness when money is on the line, as my opponents in the old Natural Selection or current World of Kedoria can attest. However, unfairness is a broad category: In a combo metagame, someone with a tribal deck that dedicates their noncreature slots to disrupting combo and their creature slots to winning the game through a 'stupid-aggro' strategy could well benefit. The trick lies in reading the metagame, and designing accordingly to deal with it, no matter what that metagame consists of.
I agree with InNeutral's playing to win comments, its probably just me, but ive never played to win...Do i like winning? of course who doesnt. But i dont think winning is necessary to validate fun, and that is what im offering here...fun
Ok as host I feel I should list my thoughts.
1) As far as bannings go I have previously stated that if any one archetype becoms overpowering then bannings will be considered. So far we have only had a few times when a deck totally dominated the tournament, but most if not all of the players realize, hey I'm playing Helm-Line against treefolk, Allies, and Horses... They realize the PRE is more about fun and getting together to play tribal classic.
2) There are more combos in classic than are worth banning then you get into the arguments of what to ban. Sure we could ban Helm-Line and Painter's Stone, but what do you ban from dredge? It wrecked extended without Bazaar of Baghdad so that is not the answer, and was playable before Bridge from Below was printed if I'm remembering Friggorid correctly. What about elves? Do we through out SquirrelCraft and Glimpse of Nature? Or maybe Countertop?
3) Also the intention of this in my mind was never to establish any type of hardcore metagame for classic tribal. After reading AJ_Impy's and LordErman's debate articles, I saw a void of anything tribal based online and figured some players would appreciate a casual/competitive environment to play this format in. Its honestly not for hardcore spikes, but then its not for total non-spikes. Its an event held mostly for fun with a chance to win a small amount of tix as compensation. I mean normally 1st gets $4 in credit. I've placed in prizes before and I just buy random rares like Ascensions and such.
4) Now if anyone has any ideas as far as "fixing" the format, then I would love to hear them. Yeah I get Standard may be viable but the format I think would to quickly evolve into best deck 1, 2, and 3. Smaller card pools greatly restrict the amount of innovation thats possible.
-ShardFenix