number 8 is the only thing i dislike really about mtgo i love joking around with opponents that i see at FNM but miss the interaction online. Lubkily i have a clan with some fun friends in it and we have vent to talk smack back and forth to each other
Back to Basics is not restricted.
Not sure how Fastbond gives us Tyrant Oath, as most of the Tyrant Oath lists do not use Fastbond, wouldn't that need real moxen?
Zoo will have a hella hard time but there is cards it can employ or change of color scheme.
gw uses tariff to hold of inky and such though not many lists do.
Most of the Tinker/Oath targets hate is edict and hurk's recall
Nice article and will anyone have a survival or Rec Nightmare list in Classic?
Depending on the person fun can mean many different things. Obviously to you annoying is fun. For 1 game. Good thing on MTGO you can choose a different opponent each game you play. If you can't, this deck won't make it anywhere, especially in group play. So is putting all these cards together fun and annoying, yes if you have all these cards. I don't really see people putting together a deck like this to get a few games of annoying fun in.
In terms of spicing up the articles...you obviously need more references that magic players understand or ones so obscure that magic players must pretend to understand as to not look like dorks. In other words theres nothing you can do, cause all magic players are dorks.
You are choosing a topic that isn't covered by the professionals though, you can really only expect so much from a topic that only so many players will enjoy. Lets face it, its harder to write an article on annoying crazy decks than it is to brainstorm a simple budget deck or just list a deck someone else sent you in an email. Keep up the good work and add graphics, therefore everyone can be happy.
As a player who has never touched a paper version of Oath, I am going to say this article has given me more interest in a fringe format that is called Classic. You list versions of Oath I have never heard of and the short history behind them. The variance between the decks differs but continues to focus on the same engine that is played out in Vintage. While a number of the decks include cards online players do not have online, the evolution of the deck opens doors to new evolutions that could be seen online. I was most interested how the deck lists incorporated Gaea's Blessing or the lack there of. Card interactions with YagWin, Accumulated Knowledge, and flashback cards abuse the graveyard interact beautifully with the whole deck in mind.
Yes, Lich's Tomb really does nothing and is really just there so I can say that I used it. However, it did come in really handy in one match when my opponent blew up my Eon Hub. Luckily I had enough tokens to sacrifice thanks to Orochi Hatchery. But yes, it is a fairly useless card. It might work better combo-ed with Solitary Confinement. I'll have to look into that.
Laughin'man, and anyone else, thank you for the constructive criticism. I really do appreciate any feedback I can get on how to improve my writing. I could really use some suggestions on how to make this a more fun article to read, especially since I am using fun cards. I too, feel like this article lacked some pizazz.
I think that the depth was reasonable; you showed both history and possible futures, it was simply the vintage decks that you have chosen to show that i have minor qualms with...post-gush, oath hasn't been quite as hot in hybrid storm decks...but wait, gush is online!
Oath is absolutely one of the best sideboard options ever, right up there with goys and negators; its sooo good, and may simply muscle zoo out of the format (any shrouded monster on turns 2-3 is rough stuff)
If they reprint fastbond, though..youve basically got tyrant oath, which was so coool.
People wanted bazaar restricted for the same reason they wanted (and, eventually, got) flash, or lions eye diamond, or back to basics restricted: not objective dominance, or even true brokenness (which it is), but simply not enjoying that kind of deck.
sorry to post this here, but its dawned on me that off the 100+ packs of irl magic zen, i got got one vampire token, and that was in a single blister pack, what gives?
Oath is one of my favorite cards in the set. First being Recurring Nightmare and second being Oath of Ghouls. Survival of the Fittest definitely comes a close 4th to Oath of Druids though. Those 4 cards are high on my to get list come Exodus.
Almost forgot the fireballx5 which was the main reason for my second post to this.
Tribal Wars is definitely a format in need of a fix. LE claims it can't be fixed and I'm not sure he is wrong but the thing is, with combo it isn't fun, without combo it is. Control, Aggro, Midrange all work nicely within the format with no one deck a clear victor. I am not even talking about general combos I am talking about the tier 1 and 2 combos that break Classic regularly. People seem to be ok with Classic being broken so these combos have a nice home there. They don't really fit in TWC though. I know extended has it's own set of combos but they are further and fewer between and don't work quite so quickly as their classic cousins. I vote we change the format base to extended, leave the B/R list alone for a few weeks and see if that changes anything. If not then we should rethink the B/R list. King Ritz suggested restricting all non tribal cards and that is not in my opinion a viable solution to this problem but it is possible I am wrong so if option a) doesn't work we can try that option instead and see how that goes.
It's normally in a Mana drain package with storm, but often times comes in from the sideboard. Basically, Oath can retrieve iona from the sb, or angel in MD against Storm which can really give grim long decks major problems. Oath is definately a fun list, I wish I could go into more dept with it in the article, but literally I'd have like 25 different lists, and explaining them so >.< Oh yeah, Dredge was really a problem from a lot of people I heard, I never thought it was much, but I do remember thread upon thread upon thread with legit players wanting to see Bazaar axed
Here's the problem: if they say "that runs into problems with gambling laws" WOTC may indeed be admitting that some of their MTGO stuff nudges up against "gambling" even though they'll claim it up and down to be a game of skill that is not beholden to gambling statutes. That's without getting into the multi and varied international law conflicts that they're skating next to already, and certainly don't want to pay to examine all the time.
By even saying "there are legal issues" they may create new legal issues that are not present in a by-rote denial, and certainly there is a "cost" to this risk that, apparently, outweighs the value of "goodwill" created by responding to every idea with "Not legal in Kentucky; gray area in a judicial ruling on gambling laws" or whatever.
You're a good writer, but your facts are sometimes a bit off.
Ichorid has always been good in vintage, but its never dominated.
You could run the ichorid gambit in extended, as, while it was terrific, it often was easier to not run hate against them to improve your other matchups, giving you a better chance of making top 8
Welder decks in vinatage are rarely super relient on welder, either being drain decks, workshop aggro, or stax
_Oath seems sketch in vintage combo matchups, (i do play vinatge, btw) as long variants and even tps are super fast, but to0 be fair, ive never tried oath. Isn't it usually in drain-type shells rather than combo?. Tidespout oath was an awesome deck, tho
just a heads up, bomberman oath was decent in vintage as well.
over all, though, despite my nitpicking, i loved the artile. You put forth some awesome deck lists, and found some cool ones from the past (turbo oath!)
Sphinx of the Steel Wind is currently my favorite card to play with. Its ability to bring you back from the brink of loss into victory is awesome. The only thing missing is the right deck to make sure it gets on the table consistently.
I've been looking for ways to play Iona, Shield of Emeria in std as well. It's an interesting card, I might try her in a polymorph deck instead of Darksteel which I'm currently using.
I guess the secret is out on my deck. I've been working on this deck since Zendikar release and it's been through quite a few revisions (including Baneslayer). My new list utilizes 4x Zealous Persecution in the board for Boros/Mono-red which are usually not so favorable match-ups. I'm usually pleased to face Jund/Vampires across the table as they are just a little too slow and give me time to build up. Overall, it's been a very satisfying deck and gratifying seeing others come up with their own decks based on this idea.
I wasn't trying to criticize you Danger for not telling us everything or thinking you were withholding info. I believe that you guys did a great job and have tried to tell as as much as you all could think of to communicate back to us.
It was more a criticism of WotC in that while the CCC was great, they need to realize that only the people who went got the direct view and line of communication that you did and not really the community as a whole. They need to keep this in mind and not think it is a substitute for communicating to the larger community more directly.
Also while I do believe that they consider and take time to think about many ideas, they do not really communicate that. I think many people would just like to know that it has been given thought. If the reason for rejection cannot be shared people will generally understand.
I work for a company and understand legal concerns, although we always tell our clients what the legal concern is. For instance we would say this idea is not possible because it violates gambling laws. Instead of just saying there are "legal concerns". Saying something like this does not open them up to any legal issues and it generally makes people happy to know a general reason why an idea won't work. It definitely can be a fine line to walk at times, but its one I think they need to learn to walk better.
There is a big problem here, as Platipus mentioned. As a 2nd party to the info (3rd in some way), you have to remember that for the most part WoTC isn't allowed to discuss legal matters anywhere. You can guess why - more legal matters - they can get in trouble. So when you have great idea and it seems to simply sink, that causes an issue. Exasperating the issue is that even if they said "there is a legal issue" they can't talk about it specifically - which makes it hard to discuss further. It sort of just ends the discussion right then and there. I suppose if you were a conspiracy theorist, you could imagine they could always hide behind that excuse, but if you honestly think they willfully avoid using obviously good plans I've got some swamp in Florida to sell you.
I truly apologize if you feel the people who were at the CCC haven't done their best to divulge everything we learned, but honestly, it's not like we're hiding anything. We are just passing on what *we* were told. It's not like we're guardians of some secret storehouse of information. You've got it all. The only things it seems we didn't express well beyond the factual bits were things that aren't always as apparent communicating digitally - which doesn't help that the only way I have to communicate them to all of you now is once again via type.
1) They listen - they really do. They honestly feel the handcuffing just as much (and in some ways more - or don't you think they have their own idea we haven't thought of?) than we do. You have no reason to not keep coming up with great ideas. They will spend longer thinking about the good ones than probably the people who came up with the idea in the first place - they get PAID to do that. That was very apparent.
2) They think a lot more long term that the community as a whole generally does. Which in some ways is sad, because it makes them more vulnerable to short term problems. Think about MTGO for a sec, really hard, and you'll see that twists and turns are everywhere, but they are still on a line for good things.
3) They are a corporation. They can't throw money at people and problems in much the same way that the corporation you work for (If you don't work for one, ask someone who does) doesn't just throw money and people at problems. They are much less nimble in many ways that you might think. You don't really get that feeling, I think, until you walk into their office building - or at the very least it's so much more poignant. But I get the feeling some people think WoTC is just like a really big version of their local card store where they sit around an play games all day - at least they throw suggestions at WoTC in much the same manner they would throw a suggestion to Generic Comic Book Store Owner. The world of big money doesn't work that way. You have to look at it from every angle, asses, plan, then implement. That might take a day or it might take a decade.
Even after all that, I can't count the number of times that WoTC has said they have to get better at communication for MTGO. It has been their Achilles heel throughout their entire lifetime - the ebb has gotten very low indeed and the flow never rises very high either. Sadly, they rely heavily right now on community resources to disseminate, but core communication has to improve.
So by all means keep your suggestions coming. My intention wasn't to dissuade you from doing so, only to have you take a look at suggestions from another angle.
This is the classic communication problem that WotC continuously has. Sure a small minority of CCC players may have sat around with the WotC guys this one time, and WotC told specifically those people why their ideas don't work, but that doesn't let the community in general know why. Just as Archgenius said he is perfectly willing to modify his idea to constructive criticism and so are many other people who truly want to come up with a viable solution.
If WotC were able to communicate the problems with ideas they could have an entire player base helping to come up with solutions. I'm not saying they need to entertain every crazy idea that people have, but serious ideas that have obviously had a decent amount of thought which are trying to address valid problems such as the generic classic pack idea. Currently players are taking stabs in the dark trying to help. This often becomes frustrating when players think they have a great idea, but they don't know what the problem is because they do not have the same view point and data that WotC has. I'm sure there is a solution, but I believe it will take feedback going both ways.
As I said to GLIB last night, Oath is a lot like Flash, except you get to run 4 of your key card and you really only need 1 slot in your deck as opposed to the 5-10 cards Flash needs. With all that extra space, you can pretty much build it in any way you please. You can pack in Mana-Denial, uber-control, multiple win conditions (such as GLIB did here).
While Oath might make a lot of other formerly viable strategies obsolete, it's nice to know that you can have such variance in Oath lists to keep them from getting stale.
number 8 is the only thing i dislike really about mtgo i love joking around with opponents that i see at FNM but miss the interaction online. Lubkily i have a clan with some fun friends in it and we have vent to talk smack back and forth to each other
Ok, we just needed that argument! Reason number one is enough! LOL!
Fun read, thanks for the article.
oh definitely i would love run a few test games before saturdays event. I know your on my friends list so i will hit you up next time im on
Back to Basics is not restricted.
Not sure how Fastbond gives us Tyrant Oath, as most of the Tyrant Oath lists do not use Fastbond, wouldn't that need real moxen?
Zoo will have a hella hard time but there is cards it can employ or change of color scheme.
gw uses tariff to hold of inky and such though not many lists do.
Most of the Tinker/Oath targets hate is edict and hurk's recall
Nice article and will anyone have a survival or Rec Nightmare list in Classic?
Depending on the person fun can mean many different things. Obviously to you annoying is fun. For 1 game. Good thing on MTGO you can choose a different opponent each game you play. If you can't, this deck won't make it anywhere, especially in group play. So is putting all these cards together fun and annoying, yes if you have all these cards. I don't really see people putting together a deck like this to get a few games of annoying fun in.
In terms of spicing up the articles...you obviously need more references that magic players understand or ones so obscure that magic players must pretend to understand as to not look like dorks. In other words theres nothing you can do, cause all magic players are dorks.
You are choosing a topic that isn't covered by the professionals though, you can really only expect so much from a topic that only so many players will enjoy. Lets face it, its harder to write an article on annoying crazy decks than it is to brainstorm a simple budget deck or just list a deck someone else sent you in an email. Keep up the good work and add graphics, therefore everyone can be happy.
As a player who has never touched a paper version of Oath, I am going to say this article has given me more interest in a fringe format that is called Classic. You list versions of Oath I have never heard of and the short history behind them. The variance between the decks differs but continues to focus on the same engine that is played out in Vintage. While a number of the decks include cards online players do not have online, the evolution of the deck opens doors to new evolutions that could be seen online. I was most interested how the deck lists incorporated Gaea's Blessing or the lack there of. Card interactions with YagWin, Accumulated Knowledge, and flashback cards abuse the graveyard interact beautifully with the whole deck in mind.
Yes, Lich's Tomb really does nothing and is really just there so I can say that I used it. However, it did come in really handy in one match when my opponent blew up my Eon Hub. Luckily I had enough tokens to sacrifice thanks to Orochi Hatchery. But yes, it is a fairly useless card. It might work better combo-ed with Solitary Confinement. I'll have to look into that.
Laughin'man, and anyone else, thank you for the constructive criticism. I really do appreciate any feedback I can get on how to improve my writing. I could really use some suggestions on how to make this a more fun article to read, especially since I am using fun cards. I too, feel like this article lacked some pizazz.
It's me, the poster above you, GLIB
I think that the depth was reasonable; you showed both history and possible futures, it was simply the vintage decks that you have chosen to show that i have minor qualms with...post-gush, oath hasn't been quite as hot in hybrid storm decks...but wait, gush is online!
Oath is absolutely one of the best sideboard options ever, right up there with goys and negators; its sooo good, and may simply muscle zoo out of the format (any shrouded monster on turns 2-3 is rough stuff)
If they reprint fastbond, though..youve basically got tyrant oath, which was so coool.
People wanted bazaar restricted for the same reason they wanted (and, eventually, got) flash, or lions eye diamond, or back to basics restricted: not objective dominance, or even true brokenness (which it is), but simply not enjoying that kind of deck.
Anyways, props on a great article
sorry to post this here, but its dawned on me that off the 100+ packs of irl magic zen, i got got one vampire token, and that was in a single blister pack, what gives?
Oath is one of my favorite cards in the set. First being Recurring Nightmare and second being Oath of Ghouls. Survival of the Fittest definitely comes a close 4th to Oath of Druids though. Those 4 cards are high on my to get list come Exodus.
Almost forgot the fireballx5 which was the main reason for my second post to this.
Feel free to hit me up for casual games in any format LE. You are always fun to play with.
(Thought I commented before but apparently not)
Tribal Wars is definitely a format in need of a fix. LE claims it can't be fixed and I'm not sure he is wrong but the thing is, with combo it isn't fun, without combo it is. Control, Aggro, Midrange all work nicely within the format with no one deck a clear victor. I am not even talking about general combos I am talking about the tier 1 and 2 combos that break Classic regularly. People seem to be ok with Classic being broken so these combos have a nice home there. They don't really fit in TWC though. I know extended has it's own set of combos but they are further and fewer between and don't work quite so quickly as their classic cousins. I vote we change the format base to extended, leave the B/R list alone for a few weeks and see if that changes anything. If not then we should rethink the B/R list. King Ritz suggested restricting all non tribal cards and that is not in my opinion a viable solution to this problem but it is possible I am wrong so if option a) doesn't work we can try that option instead and see how that goes.
It's normally in a Mana drain package with storm, but often times comes in from the sideboard. Basically, Oath can retrieve iona from the sb, or angel in MD against Storm which can really give grim long decks major problems. Oath is definately a fun list, I wish I could go into more dept with it in the article, but literally I'd have like 25 different lists, and explaining them so >.< Oh yeah, Dredge was really a problem from a lot of people I heard, I never thought it was much, but I do remember thread upon thread upon thread with legit players wanting to see Bazaar axed
Here's the problem: if they say "that runs into problems with gambling laws" WOTC may indeed be admitting that some of their MTGO stuff nudges up against "gambling" even though they'll claim it up and down to be a game of skill that is not beholden to gambling statutes. That's without getting into the multi and varied international law conflicts that they're skating next to already, and certainly don't want to pay to examine all the time.
By even saying "there are legal issues" they may create new legal issues that are not present in a by-rote denial, and certainly there is a "cost" to this risk that, apparently, outweighs the value of "goodwill" created by responding to every idea with "Not legal in Kentucky; gray area in a judicial ruling on gambling laws" or whatever.
You're a good writer, but your facts are sometimes a bit off.
Ichorid has always been good in vintage, but its never dominated.
You could run the ichorid gambit in extended, as, while it was terrific, it often was easier to not run hate against them to improve your other matchups, giving you a better chance of making top 8
Welder decks in vinatage are rarely super relient on welder, either being drain decks, workshop aggro, or stax
_Oath seems sketch in vintage combo matchups, (i do play vinatge, btw) as long variants and even tps are super fast, but to0 be fair, ive never tried oath. Isn't it usually in drain-type shells rather than combo?. Tidespout oath was an awesome deck, tho
just a heads up, bomberman oath was decent in vintage as well.
over all, though, despite my nitpicking, i loved the artile. You put forth some awesome deck lists, and found some cool ones from the past (turbo oath!)
Shard the deck works amazingly well I have to show it to ya some times.
Sphinx of the Steel Wind is currently my favorite card to play with. Its ability to bring you back from the brink of loss into victory is awesome. The only thing missing is the right deck to make sure it gets on the table consistently.
you forgot green white when listing the decks.
I've been looking for ways to play Iona, Shield of Emeria in std as well. It's an interesting card, I might try her in a polymorph deck instead of Darksteel which I'm currently using.
I guess the secret is out on my deck. I've been working on this deck since Zendikar release and it's been through quite a few revisions (including Baneslayer). My new list utilizes 4x Zealous Persecution in the board for Boros/Mono-red which are usually not so favorable match-ups. I'm usually pleased to face Jund/Vampires across the table as they are just a little too slow and give me time to build up. Overall, it's been a very satisfying deck and gratifying seeing others come up with their own decks based on this idea.
I wasn't trying to criticize you Danger for not telling us everything or thinking you were withholding info. I believe that you guys did a great job and have tried to tell as as much as you all could think of to communicate back to us.
It was more a criticism of WotC in that while the CCC was great, they need to realize that only the people who went got the direct view and line of communication that you did and not really the community as a whole. They need to keep this in mind and not think it is a substitute for communicating to the larger community more directly.
Also while I do believe that they consider and take time to think about many ideas, they do not really communicate that. I think many people would just like to know that it has been given thought. If the reason for rejection cannot be shared people will generally understand.
I work for a company and understand legal concerns, although we always tell our clients what the legal concern is. For instance we would say this idea is not possible because it violates gambling laws. Instead of just saying there are "legal concerns". Saying something like this does not open them up to any legal issues and it generally makes people happy to know a general reason why an idea won't work. It definitely can be a fine line to walk at times, but its one I think they need to learn to walk better.
There is a big problem here, as Platipus mentioned. As a 2nd party to the info (3rd in some way), you have to remember that for the most part WoTC isn't allowed to discuss legal matters anywhere. You can guess why - more legal matters - they can get in trouble. So when you have great idea and it seems to simply sink, that causes an issue. Exasperating the issue is that even if they said "there is a legal issue" they can't talk about it specifically - which makes it hard to discuss further. It sort of just ends the discussion right then and there. I suppose if you were a conspiracy theorist, you could imagine they could always hide behind that excuse, but if you honestly think they willfully avoid using obviously good plans I've got some swamp in Florida to sell you.
I truly apologize if you feel the people who were at the CCC haven't done their best to divulge everything we learned, but honestly, it's not like we're hiding anything. We are just passing on what *we* were told. It's not like we're guardians of some secret storehouse of information. You've got it all. The only things it seems we didn't express well beyond the factual bits were things that aren't always as apparent communicating digitally - which doesn't help that the only way I have to communicate them to all of you now is once again via type.
1) They listen - they really do. They honestly feel the handcuffing just as much (and in some ways more - or don't you think they have their own idea we haven't thought of?) than we do. You have no reason to not keep coming up with great ideas. They will spend longer thinking about the good ones than probably the people who came up with the idea in the first place - they get PAID to do that. That was very apparent.
2) They think a lot more long term that the community as a whole generally does. Which in some ways is sad, because it makes them more vulnerable to short term problems. Think about MTGO for a sec, really hard, and you'll see that twists and turns are everywhere, but they are still on a line for good things.
3) They are a corporation. They can't throw money at people and problems in much the same way that the corporation you work for (If you don't work for one, ask someone who does) doesn't just throw money and people at problems. They are much less nimble in many ways that you might think. You don't really get that feeling, I think, until you walk into their office building - or at the very least it's so much more poignant. But I get the feeling some people think WoTC is just like a really big version of their local card store where they sit around an play games all day - at least they throw suggestions at WoTC in much the same manner they would throw a suggestion to Generic Comic Book Store Owner. The world of big money doesn't work that way. You have to look at it from every angle, asses, plan, then implement. That might take a day or it might take a decade.
Even after all that, I can't count the number of times that WoTC has said they have to get better at communication for MTGO. It has been their Achilles heel throughout their entire lifetime - the ebb has gotten very low indeed and the flow never rises very high either. Sadly, they rely heavily right now on community resources to disseminate, but core communication has to improve.
So by all means keep your suggestions coming. My intention wasn't to dissuade you from doing so, only to have you take a look at suggestions from another angle.
well sure that work too..but humans work in any color combo which is why i tend not to to name them, but the definitely would fit
This is the classic communication problem that WotC continuously has. Sure a small minority of CCC players may have sat around with the WotC guys this one time, and WotC told specifically those people why their ideas don't work, but that doesn't let the community in general know why. Just as Archgenius said he is perfectly willing to modify his idea to constructive criticism and so are many other people who truly want to come up with a viable solution.
If WotC were able to communicate the problems with ideas they could have an entire player base helping to come up with solutions. I'm not saying they need to entertain every crazy idea that people have, but serious ideas that have obviously had a decent amount of thought which are trying to address valid problems such as the generic classic pack idea. Currently players are taking stabs in the dark trying to help. This often becomes frustrating when players think they have a great idea, but they don't know what the problem is because they do not have the same view point and data that WotC has. I'm sure there is a solution, but I believe it will take feedback going both ways.
As I said to GLIB last night, Oath is a lot like Flash, except you get to run 4 of your key card and you really only need 1 slot in your deck as opposed to the 5-10 cards Flash needs. With all that extra space, you can pretty much build it in any way you please. You can pack in Mana-Denial, uber-control, multiple win conditions (such as GLIB did here).
While Oath might make a lot of other formerly viable strategies obsolete, it's nice to know that you can have such variance in Oath lists to keep them from getting stale.