I generally agree with all your points - if MTGO had all its missing part, an online PT could work. I'm not sure that it would be as dramatic or as good a show using computers, but it could work.
As a side note, you mention "the MTGO PTQ's have done to get people to the event."
Do you mean how they have affected the attendance of online players at PT San Diego?
Even though the PT has not actually happened yet, I am pretty sure that, except for the winners of the online PTQs themselves, very few other players will now attend who would not otherwise have attended.
Attending a Pro Tour is a lot of fun, but I can't see how the paper players who were on the fence about attending the PT would have been swayed to attend.
I am also sure that the number of players at physical PTQs have not been affected much by the addition of online PTQs. For each player who doesn't get jaded by the idea of relying of a random pool of sealed cards, another decides driving 8 hours each way is less attractive than playing in their underwear the next day instead.
If you and WiseGreen think Pete wasn't talking about filling a Pro Tour hall with computers, then I don't think you read his article. #5 mentions cheating because you have friends helping/playing for you, but he also mentions:
#10 "Having rows and rows of monitors obscuring the view will detract from that experience..."
#6 "The Pro Tour is financed, in part, by the dealers who rent hall space from Wizards so that they can sell cards to the players. Providing god accounts goes against all of this."
#4 "Some people have trained themselves to read what people are typing simply by seeing what keys they press."
#3 "Watching pros play on computers..."
#2 "If Wizards brings 400+ computers, monitors and supporting routers and networking cables..."
I actually thought about Kira, and if she/he/it only cost a single blue then it might be a no-brainer. One of the attributes I wanted to keep in this deck is a clean manabase - at least for the initial version. I wanted to make sure that it would port over well to a budget version and that you'd always be able to cast your spells.
But that doesn't mean it's not good future work. I'd say you definitely should experiment with stretching the manabase and let me know how it goes!
I'm new to Magic (been playing about 6 months or so) and an old fart (47). I have tried to play paper at one of the several FNM card shops and found the reception to be ess than warm and inviting. In fact I get that "who's dad are you" look. :-)
I have found that MTGO is a lot more fun and welcoming to new players.
In fact I'm considering dumping my paper cards.
I think it is very naive to think that cheating doesn't occur in regards to MTGO.
First off, I agree with you that it is nice not to constantly have to be watching your opponent constantly to ensure they are doing everything properly. To this end, MTGO is very nice.
However any time you get an online game with any kind of popularity there are hackers that break the system. I think Wizards has done a good job of not having any publicly acknowledged attacks. Even something as simple as a hack that would allow a user to see an opponents cards would be devastating. Let alone some kind of trade hack or duplication technique or changing cards to foils, controlling cards when packs are opened, the possibilities going on and on...
I look at the many problems that the makers of MTGO have had delivering a stable, usable, reliable game client and I can't in good conscience believe that the system isn't open to being compromised. I like to believe the best, however I have been around enough games that have been compromised, that were developed by much better teams, that I shudder to think about what goes on without most users' awareness.
Anyway, I'm not trying to play scare tactics. Just trying to make a point that just because we don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
yeah my clan and I have been working on prison decks as well and tat was our exact first thought as well Glowrider+Thorn. Suppression Field is definitely a consideration too. I was playing it in mine and watching someone play 2 to terramorphic expanse or even 4 for expedition map is great.
In the vein of constructive criticism, in one of the games you made an error I see a lot. You played glacial fortress turn 1 despite having an Island in hand that would turn it on, passing on the opportunity to play a crossroads at that moment. As you have no double colored 2 drops in the deck, it's only upside to go turn 1 crossroads, turn 2 island into turn 3 fortress untapped.
Otherwise, this is truly a great project and effort you put together and I wish you the best of luck Saturday!
I was watching ther Kibler match, doing pushtool work. I missed the fact that the Angel trigger never resolved. THe judge working as spotter missed it. The floor judge missed it - although the floor judge was moving between ongoing matches. The covereage people - BDM and Randy Buehler - missed it. Kibler's opponent missed it. Did Kibler miss it - no idea, but no one was willing to say for sure that he saw it and said nothing. The aftermath of a Hypergenisis is complex.
The Gindy situation was different. It was just one effect, which was not missed. Instead, the opponent failed to do his half of the effect, and Gindy's comments after the match made it clear that he knew there was an opponent half. Seeing the opponent violate the rules, but doing nothing because it is in your favor = a DQ.
I wrote abotu this over on SCG. More important, Sheldon, the HJ, also has a column up, and he talks about it. Gindy was his call.
Thorn of Amethyst is a solid options, and I kind of just gave up on it after realizing that Glowrider didn't exist in Extended anymore - probably unfairly. Good call.
The Flashback Cost on Deep Analysis is a pretty hefty price to pay thanks to the little Red men running around. That being said, if you are ever in a position to get the second half of the spell, you are probably in decent shape. I'll look into running more of these guys.
Those first few paragraphs really hit home for me. It is an issue dear to my heart for sure. I've never been to a PT as a participant (though I have reported on a few and helped with logistics in another) or a GP at all and I never really had ambitions to be a pro but I did have a competitive era. Despite that and despite the great many players I have known, I too am a never was in the world of professional magic. Never even tried really. I did play in numerous PTQs, but it wasn't with the spirit to win the whole thing. I ignored dojo.com in its prime because I was really more interested in running my AD&D, Champions, Shadowrun campaigns, and helping to develop a NYC Larp which grabbed my attention (at that time) more than the sometimes tedious, sometimes painful experiences of massive testing required to be good at competitive magic. I have friends who are so talented as players they don't even need those experiences to be good, they just mize and bring home the $. Such is the world. I have been other things instead and am proud of those instead.
But I get the feeling of "Wow, if I'd only tried harder," or "Man, just a little more..." You actually did try harder and succeeded more so you should be proud of those accomplishments. Day 2s at GPs are not easy from what I understand. State Championships aren't easy either. My best claim to fame there is helping to 'design' (tweak against the mirror really) a widely played deck for one State Championship which took 5th place one year. Not exactly a 'has been' moment that. :p So you should be proud of the things you have done and not mindful of that which you failed to do or opted not to bother with. You are a Dad and Husband and I am certain your family loves you. You edit this site, write for others and generally have a good rep. Should be enough I think.
Turbo fog is rather annoying imho but that one game where you drew the Day of Judgment just as you needed it shows why randomly drawing x cards is just awesome. I have mixed feelings of Howling Mines dating back to my early magic days. Turbo decks really make it shine but I still hate playing with it.
great article as always. I pretty much agree with most of your points in the editorial section.
A quick correction, the 16 player release events award 10 packs for a 3-1 record, not 12.
Also, did anyone else notice that the Alara BLOCK boosters that are going to be released early next year will be available in draft sets (3 packs and 2 tickets) I've been trying to find out information on this without any luck. To me this brings 3 questions.
1) Is there going to be prerelease/release events for this, even though its essentially a repackaged product.
2) Will the Alara Block booster Drafts work like ACR drafts and replace ACR drafts as a way to streamline booster pack prize distribution, or will it truly be 3 packs of all cards from Alara block mixed together.
3) Will Alara Block drafts have a prize distribution that includes the all-foil boosters.
Regarding Extended cards; the Pro tour qualifier locations for San Juan have been, and they're extended based. Expect more extended staples to rise soon as well.
Yeah Gindy's error was compounded by his admission that he noticed the mistake. But I think the pressure of playing in PTs and Worlds and even GPs where real money is on the line is a two edged sword. Sometimes it cuts you, sometimes it makes you play better. This is one reason that even if I was a GOOD player I wouldn't make the pt. I can't deal with the intricacies of the game AND the stress and the endurance it requires all in one package. Hence my very real respect for people who can.
From a game play perspective, MTGO feels more pure. Having started as a paper player, the play experience feels more pure in paper.
If I want to play a game, I think MTGO lets me do that better than paper. If I want to enjoy everything about ccg's (opening packs, watching the play next to me, trading, jawing with my opponent, etc.), then paper fits better.
Arguing that MTGO is a more "pure" experience seems silly. MTG is a collectible CARD game. To me touching real, paper cards feels more "pure" than clicking on some pixels on my screen.
Im working on a similar deck and one card I would suggest you try out is Thorn of Amethyst. Increasing the cost of all your opponents non-creature spells can be tough.
i met him briefly one year at a GP or something a long time ago and I will admit he certainly does not seem to be duplicitous in any way. In my opinion i would say it was an honest mistake. When prizes of that magnitude are on the line triggers are hard to miss. Unfortunately for kibler, everyone not at the event and not under the pressure has there own opinion. My main thing was in saying triggers like that could not be missed on mtgo. I also believe gindy did not purposefully do anything wrong either. I think he was more concerned with his board and his plays then whether o not the opponent was making proper moves which is understandable even at the level of FNM since i know ive gone off with dragonstorm while only having eight mana in my pool while in the finals.
I'd like to think having met Kibler and talked with him that he isn't that guy. But the thing about being in the public at that level is, people are gunning for you so even if you aren't that guy it is hard to not look like him at sometime. Everyone makes mistakes and the fact is we don't often let our heroes live them down. At least until something more news worthy comes along. (cf: Tiger)
Good article, as always.
I generally agree with all your points - if MTGO had all its missing part, an online PT could work. I'm not sure that it would be as dramatic or as good a show using computers, but it could work.
As a side note, you mention "the MTGO PTQ's have done to get people to the event."
Do you mean how they have affected the attendance of online players at PT San Diego?
Even though the PT has not actually happened yet, I am pretty sure that, except for the winners of the online PTQs themselves, very few other players will now attend who would not otherwise have attended.
Attending a Pro Tour is a lot of fun, but I can't see how the paper players who were on the fence about attending the PT would have been swayed to attend.
I am also sure that the number of players at physical PTQs have not been affected much by the addition of online PTQs. For each player who doesn't get jaded by the idea of relying of a random pool of sealed cards, another decides driving 8 hours each way is less attractive than playing in their underwear the next day instead.
If you and WiseGreen think Pete wasn't talking about filling a Pro Tour hall with computers, then I don't think you read his article. #5 mentions cheating because you have friends helping/playing for you, but he also mentions:
#10 "Having rows and rows of monitors obscuring the view will detract from that experience..."
#6 "The Pro Tour is financed, in part, by the dealers who rent hall space from Wizards so that they can sell cards to the players. Providing god accounts goes against all of this."
#4 "Some people have trained themselves to read what people are typing simply by seeing what keys they press."
#3 "Watching pros play on computers..."
#2 "If Wizards brings 400+ computers, monitors and supporting routers and networking cables..."
Good article. To me the moral of the story is, Wizards needs to get off their butts and finally make MtGO better.
I actually thought about Kira, and if she/he/it only cost a single blue then it might be a no-brainer. One of the attributes I wanted to keep in this deck is a clean manabase - at least for the initial version. I wanted to make sure that it would port over well to a budget version and that you'd always be able to cast your spells.
But that doesn't mean it's not good future work. I'd say you definitely should experiment with stretching the manabase and let me know how it goes!
Deck looks like some fun.
Do you think opening it up to Bant colors would be worth the trouble to try to fit in Kira, Great Glass-Spinner?
I'm new to Magic (been playing about 6 months or so) and an old fart (47). I have tried to play paper at one of the several FNM card shops and found the reception to be ess than warm and inviting. In fact I get that "who's dad are you" look. :-)
I have found that MTGO is a lot more fun and welcoming to new players.
In fact I'm considering dumping my paper cards.
Okay, back into my hole. LOL
Promos are wrong on the weekend tournaments. Krosan Tusker is the December weekend promo.
http://community.wizards.com/magiconline/wiki/Magic_Online_Promo_Card_List
I think it is very naive to think that cheating doesn't occur in regards to MTGO.
First off, I agree with you that it is nice not to constantly have to be watching your opponent constantly to ensure they are doing everything properly. To this end, MTGO is very nice.
However any time you get an online game with any kind of popularity there are hackers that break the system. I think Wizards has done a good job of not having any publicly acknowledged attacks. Even something as simple as a hack that would allow a user to see an opponents cards would be devastating. Let alone some kind of trade hack or duplication technique or changing cards to foils, controlling cards when packs are opened, the possibilities going on and on...
I look at the many problems that the makers of MTGO have had delivering a stable, usable, reliable game client and I can't in good conscience believe that the system isn't open to being compromised. I like to believe the best, however I have been around enough games that have been compromised, that were developed by much better teams, that I shudder to think about what goes on without most users' awareness.
Anyway, I'm not trying to play scare tactics. Just trying to make a point that just because we don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
-Gimmie
yeah my clan and I have been working on prison decks as well and tat was our exact first thought as well Glowrider+Thorn. Suppression Field is definitely a consideration too. I was playing it in mine and watching someone play 2 to terramorphic expanse or even 4 for expedition map is great.
In the vein of constructive criticism, in one of the games you made an error I see a lot. You played glacial fortress turn 1 despite having an Island in hand that would turn it on, passing on the opportunity to play a crossroads at that moment. As you have no double colored 2 drops in the deck, it's only upside to go turn 1 crossroads, turn 2 island into turn 3 fortress untapped.
Otherwise, this is truly a great project and effort you put together and I wish you the best of luck Saturday!
I was watching ther Kibler match, doing pushtool work. I missed the fact that the Angel trigger never resolved. THe judge working as spotter missed it. The floor judge missed it - although the floor judge was moving between ongoing matches. The covereage people - BDM and Randy Buehler - missed it. Kibler's opponent missed it. Did Kibler miss it - no idea, but no one was willing to say for sure that he saw it and said nothing. The aftermath of a Hypergenisis is complex.
The Gindy situation was different. It was just one effect, which was not missed. Instead, the opponent failed to do his half of the effect, and Gindy's comments after the match made it clear that he knew there was an opponent half. Seeing the opponent violate the rules, but doing nothing because it is in your favor = a DQ.
I wrote abotu this over on SCG. More important, Sheldon, the HJ, also has a column up, and he talks about it. Gindy was his call.
Thorn of Amethyst is a solid options, and I kind of just gave up on it after realizing that Glowrider didn't exist in Extended anymore - probably unfairly. Good call.
The Flashback Cost on Deep Analysis is a pretty hefty price to pay thanks to the little Red men running around. That being said, if you are ever in a position to get the second half of the spell, you are probably in decent shape. I'll look into running more of these guys.
-Alex
Those first few paragraphs really hit home for me. It is an issue dear to my heart for sure. I've never been to a PT as a participant (though I have reported on a few and helped with logistics in another) or a GP at all and I never really had ambitions to be a pro but I did have a competitive era. Despite that and despite the great many players I have known, I too am a never was in the world of professional magic. Never even tried really. I did play in numerous PTQs, but it wasn't with the spirit to win the whole thing. I ignored dojo.com in its prime because I was really more interested in running my AD&D, Champions, Shadowrun campaigns, and helping to develop a NYC Larp which grabbed my attention (at that time) more than the sometimes tedious, sometimes painful experiences of massive testing required to be good at competitive magic. I have friends who are so talented as players they don't even need those experiences to be good, they just mize and bring home the $. Such is the world. I have been other things instead and am proud of those instead.
But I get the feeling of "Wow, if I'd only tried harder," or "Man, just a little more..." You actually did try harder and succeeded more so you should be proud of those accomplishments. Day 2s at GPs are not easy from what I understand. State Championships aren't easy either. My best claim to fame there is helping to 'design' (tweak against the mirror really) a widely played deck for one State Championship which took 5th place one year. Not exactly a 'has been' moment that. :p So you should be proud of the things you have done and not mindful of that which you failed to do or opted not to bother with. You are a Dad and Husband and I am certain your family loves you. You edit this site, write for others and generally have a good rep. Should be enough I think.
Turbo fog is rather annoying imho but that one game where you drew the Day of Judgment just as you needed it shows why randomly drawing x cards is just awesome. I have mixed feelings of Howling Mines dating back to my early magic days. Turbo decks really make it shine but I still hate playing with it.
great article as always. I pretty much agree with most of your points in the editorial section.
A quick correction, the 16 player release events award 10 packs for a 3-1 record, not 12.
Also, did anyone else notice that the Alara BLOCK boosters that are going to be released early next year will be available in draft sets (3 packs and 2 tickets) I've been trying to find out information on this without any luck. To me this brings 3 questions.
1) Is there going to be prerelease/release events for this, even though its essentially a repackaged product.
2) Will the Alara Block booster Drafts work like ACR drafts and replace ACR drafts as a way to streamline booster pack prize distribution, or will it truly be 3 packs of all cards from Alara block mixed together.
3) Will Alara Block drafts have a prize distribution that includes the all-foil boosters.
Regarding Extended cards; the Pro tour qualifier locations for San Juan have been, and they're extended based. Expect more extended staples to rise soon as well.
Yeah Gindy's error was compounded by his admission that he noticed the mistake. But I think the pressure of playing in PTs and Worlds and even GPs where real money is on the line is a two edged sword. Sometimes it cuts you, sometimes it makes you play better. This is one reason that even if I was a GOOD player I wouldn't make the pt. I can't deal with the intricacies of the game AND the stress and the endurance it requires all in one package. Hence my very real respect for people who can.
From a game play perspective, MTGO feels more pure. Having started as a paper player, the play experience feels more pure in paper.
If I want to play a game, I think MTGO lets me do that better than paper. If I want to enjoy everything about ccg's (opening packs, watching the play next to me, trading, jawing with my opponent, etc.), then paper fits better.
Arguing that MTGO is a more "pure" experience seems silly. MTG is a collectible CARD game. To me touching real, paper cards feels more "pure" than clicking on some pixels on my screen.
Im working on a similar deck and one card I would suggest you try out is Thorn of Amethyst. Increasing the cost of all your opponents non-creature spells can be tough.
Brainstorm/Ponder would work with the deck.
Land count is one high to my admittedly less experienced eye.
^shardfenix just not on my computer so im not signed in.
i met him briefly one year at a GP or something a long time ago and I will admit he certainly does not seem to be duplicitous in any way. In my opinion i would say it was an honest mistake. When prizes of that magnitude are on the line triggers are hard to miss. Unfortunately for kibler, everyone not at the event and not under the pressure has there own opinion. My main thing was in saying triggers like that could not be missed on mtgo. I also believe gindy did not purposefully do anything wrong either. I think he was more concerned with his board and his plays then whether o not the opponent was making proper moves which is understandable even at the level of FNM since i know ive gone off with dragonstorm while only having eight mana in my pool while in the finals.
I'd like to think having met Kibler and talked with him that he isn't that guy. But the thing about being in the public at that level is, people are gunning for you so even if you aren't that guy it is hard to not look like him at sometime. Everyone makes mistakes and the fact is we don't often let our heroes live them down. At least until something more news worthy comes along. (cf: Tiger)