Even not agreeing with your first iteration of the deck I agree with your conclusions the deck needs more creatures, ideally evasion ones. From Standard to Block the deck lost all the trample it had, one solution could be Behemoth Sledge but then we go to the few creatures problem again.
Between Jenara and Stoic Angel I would go for Stoic, I think this deck benefits more from his effect than with one more pumping effect.
Sigh... this is not a format full of trampling guys, 2cc 5/6 guys, token producers, blazing fast burn. It is a format in which if you have 20 counters and you are first and you don't miss land drops, you can probably counter every play from your opponent, and unse the other 15 removal spots on the deck to erase threats coming down. You don't need mass removal, it is just not that fast.
A very good point, and you've actually touched on what (IMO) is the Achilles's Heel of this deck: exalted attacking vs. Removal.
In fact that's why I switched to 5ColorControl over Bant Aggro/Control when it was just Alara/Conflux.
Stoic dies to all the non-damage removal of the game, as does every single creature in the deck, sadly. The unique thing that Stoic does accomplish is the ability to attack with more than one creature without hurting you as much, since you're suddenly not relying on just getting in with Exalted damage.
It's entirely possible that Stoic is nowhere near as good as she once was, or that the new cards for Bant are able to replace her usefulness in the deck. She was one of the few creatures that really posed both a question and an answer to Naya back when I played the deck.
The reason why draw-go decks are successful is that they have this or that form of mass removal.
When I first started playing Magic, I had such a mono blue deck and my tool for clearing the table back then was Nevinyrral's Disk. In time mono blue became blue-white and this time Wrath of God was that mass removal.
In Kaleidoscope we simply don't have neither the disk nor WoG.
UWB
Grixis charm > draw
error, countersquall, overrule, repel intruders, soul manipulation > counters
Hindering light > sideboard material
agony warp, unmake, vanish into memory > creature control
castigate > for what you can't remove in other ways
Apart from maniac, each other card named is in our counter range and costs the same or more than our counters, and the only creature with CC less than 4 that cannot be removed by warp is thoctar
You don't have to play bad cards like moath and the like, you'll simply play sideboard cards for the aggro/zoo matchup, while dominating every control matchup and not suffering from blight or aggrocontrol matchups.
There is a free trial server, but it limits you to the current core set theme decks. It's on the login screen, on the bottom.
To play the actual game you'll need to spend 9.99 US (+ tax) and then you'll receive a coupon back for 9.99 to use in the store.
You'll then need to buy all the cards for your decks, as the cost is set up to be precisely the same as the paper version where each card has value and you have to collect them to play them.
Please let me know if you have any other questions! :)
1- No I haven't. As of yesterday I stopped playing in any tournaments and won't play in one until I have my new cards. That's my stardard procedure with every new set. I hate losing just because my opponent has cards that I don't.
And Gruul now is even faster with Bloodbraid Elf. Actually as I said in the article, no other deck can match Gruul's speed. You just have to have ways to stay alive; in my case above it is life gain.
2- The Orzhov deck above is nothing more than pen&paper at the moment. I haven't started testing it. Nevertheless I see what you mean. I had the same problem with my Simic deck (Murkfiend Liege & Overbeing of Myth). Most probably what you see above won't be what I end up with but at least it will be my starting point.
If you're going for a strict U/W Draw-go counter list you have access to five counters: Hindering Light, Overrule, Offering to Asha, Repel Intruders and Swift Silence. The latter three require 4 mana, and Overrule at 3 mana is a Spell Snip without the cycling option. (You also have access to Dovescape, but that's another build entirely.) Up against an aggro curve of Tattermunge or Figure on 1, Rip-Clan Crasher, Watchwolf, *-blade *-er, Qasali Pridemage or Scab-Clan Mauler on 2, with another one or Woolly Thoctar, Boggart Ram-Gang, Kitchen Finks or Rhox War Monk on 3 and a Liege or Knight of New Alara on 4 there will be enough on the table to kill you before you can get a Teferi's Moat down, and that's with spending all your mana to counter on turns 3 and 4. A UW deck would need to be more proactive, with cards like Plumeveil, Wall of Denial, Kitchen Finks or Crystallization to keep you alive. Most of the UW decks I've seen so far have been more aggro based than control based, although that's casual rather than queues.
A very informative article as usual. I do have a couple of comments,
1) Have you played against any gruul decks post Alara Reborn, it seems like they've gotten quite a bit faster with Hackblade and Bloodbraid?
2) Your Beauty and the Beast deck has 4 Deathbringers, and 4 Divinities of Pride with 24 lands and no Orzhov Basilicas. That seems a bit slow (ie, hard to get to 5 mana), especially when all of your removal costs 3 mana. I have a hard enough time getting my 3 Zurs and 3 Deathbringers out before the game is over with a deck with 25 land and 3 Basillicas. Have you had any mana problems with that deck?
Lich's Mirror I'm sure is plausible. However, it means that you would have to cut a fatty and play it instead of a creature off a resolved Hypergenesis, or hope you live to be able to hardcast it. I guess the metagame and testing will prove its worth. Volcanic Fallout would be a great sideboard card.
Actually I talked about Control in Kaleidoscope in great detail. Also AJ_Impy had a very well written article about that strategy as well. If you browse back a few pages, you'll see those articles.
I'm surprised that nobody talks about permission in kaleidoskope! It's simply too powerful for a format that slow, with very few good 1st drops and many slow games: with all the counters from ravnica to ARB, you may simply sit there countering everything, draw something via esper charm, then win via a single windreaver or urza's factory.
I've won something like 20 casual games with that deck, it was simply good against everything (and keep in mind i lacked pillars, mortifies, meddling mages and many other good cards!)
However, nice article!
Surviving Helix is a nice bonus.But the removal to dodge would be Path to Exile / Terminate. Ajani Vengeant is a pain against this deck,that why I was thinking on adding more O-rings to the main board.The Cardmasters was featured in deckcheck dot net and thats where it appears that the other guy won.Ill try to have that corrected.
pretty sure it was Vincent Gan who won the cardmaster tourney over in Asia and not that other guy. he also played jund but his version was different; no hell's thunder, etc. don't know why everyone seems to be messing this up :)
What about Lich Mirror? It does gives U a 2nd chance, if it's "(do) or die" on 2nd turn. This deck I tested with my earlier version does kill also on 1st turn. With Lich Mirror (Cheap $0.5 rare) can give smack even more. Volcanic Fallout sideboard helps, as it's can't be countered and also helped by Simian Spirit Guide.
Looks fun and it's great that it may be viable/relevant in the format. I'm still shopping around ideas for the MOCS tourney coming up and I think this would be an exciting deck to consider.
But I think you'll find stoic to be a very solid card in your sideboard. At least, I liked her in the board when I played the deck a while back.
She survives Ajani V's helix activation.
She slows down rush deck
She survives Ajani V's helix activation.
She combos nicely with your exalted plan
She survives Ajani V's helix activation.
Jenara was one of the cards I considered,but its color requirements making it the second 3 drop at UWG kept me sceptical.I may try it in a future build. The Bant Sureblade its actually not impressive in the deck since First Strike is something unimportant here. Qasali Pridemage is useful as a walking Naturalize with Exalted while the infiltrator has evasion. Deft Duelist would be nice vs Bloodbraid Elf and Jund Hackblade. And then it would be bad vs Woolly Thoctar,Goblin Outlande,Wild Nacatl,Putrid Leech,Dauntless Escort,Bloodhall Ooze etc, so I dont see him coming in anytime soon. The borderpost have sinergy with the Blades but I prefer to have a land in instead of a borderpost. I may consider playing one or 2 but only as fixing. Stoic Angel as a 3/4 its actualy interesting to test and I'll run a set in the board to see if its worth it.
Tks for the comments!
Tommy Ashton commented that the reason he didnt run Jenara, Asura of War was that it was constantly being blocked by flying tokens. In T2 I can see that but in block it might be a contender. Probably better than the Dauntless Escort (but mabye harder to cast?). At least it would be harder to block. If you went the flying route then Stoic Angel would be reasonable in this deck or at least in the SB.
Also, Bant Sureblade seems like a solid choice for the T2 play. First Strike versus those hasty Jund Hackblades seems relevant. One first striker that may be even more relevant is the Deft Duelist. Your probably not playing enough blue for him but it seems like the Deft Duelist would be pretty good versus the Jund Deck with all that targeted removal.
I was toying with the idea of using Borderposts, which youd want to do if you went with the Bant Sureblade, but that just opens you up to someone having Vithian Renegades and wrecking you. Dunno...
Too bad Im too lazy to get enough cards for a block deck online. heh
Another great article, I really enjoy this deck.
Even not agreeing with your first iteration of the deck I agree with your conclusions the deck needs more creatures, ideally evasion ones. From Standard to Block the deck lost all the trample it had, one solution could be Behemoth Sledge but then we go to the few creatures problem again.
Between Jenara and Stoic Angel I would go for Stoic, I think this deck benefits more from his effect than with one more pumping effect.
Sigh... this is not a format full of trampling guys, 2cc 5/6 guys, token producers, blazing fast burn. It is a format in which if you have 20 counters and you are first and you don't miss land drops, you can probably counter every play from your opponent, and unse the other 15 removal spots on the deck to erase threats coming down. You don't need mass removal, it is just not that fast.
Re: Path to Exile/Terminate/etc and Stoic.
A very good point, and you've actually touched on what (IMO) is the Achilles's Heel of this deck: exalted attacking vs. Removal.
In fact that's why I switched to 5ColorControl over Bant Aggro/Control when it was just Alara/Conflux.
Stoic dies to all the non-damage removal of the game, as does every single creature in the deck, sadly. The unique thing that Stoic does accomplish is the ability to attack with more than one creature without hurting you as much, since you're suddenly not relying on just getting in with Exalted damage.
It's entirely possible that Stoic is nowhere near as good as she once was, or that the new cards for Bant are able to replace her usefulness in the deck. She was one of the few creatures that really posed both a question and an answer to Naya back when I played the deck.
You pretty much said everything there is to say.
The reason why draw-go decks are successful is that they have this or that form of mass removal.
When I first started playing Magic, I had such a mono blue deck and my tool for clearing the table back then was Nevinyrral's Disk. In time mono blue became blue-white and this time Wrath of God was that mass removal.
In Kaleidoscope we simply don't have neither the disk nor WoG.
LE
UWB
Grixis charm > draw
error, countersquall, overrule, repel intruders, soul manipulation > counters
Hindering light > sideboard material
agony warp, unmake, vanish into memory > creature control
castigate > for what you can't remove in other ways
Apart from maniac, each other card named is in our counter range and costs the same or more than our counters, and the only creature with CC less than 4 that cannot be removed by warp is thoctar
You don't have to play bad cards like moath and the like, you'll simply play sideboard cards for the aggro/zoo matchup, while dominating every control matchup and not suffering from blight or aggrocontrol matchups.
There is a free trial server, but it limits you to the current core set theme decks. It's on the login screen, on the bottom.
To play the actual game you'll need to spend 9.99 US (+ tax) and then you'll receive a coupon back for 9.99 to use in the store.
You'll then need to buy all the cards for your decks, as the cost is set up to be precisely the same as the paper version where each card has value and you have to collect them to play them.
Please let me know if you have any other questions! :)
Thanks for the comments.
1- No I haven't. As of yesterday I stopped playing in any tournaments and won't play in one until I have my new cards. That's my stardard procedure with every new set. I hate losing just because my opponent has cards that I don't.
And Gruul now is even faster with Bloodbraid Elf. Actually as I said in the article, no other deck can match Gruul's speed. You just have to have ways to stay alive; in my case above it is life gain.
2- The Orzhov deck above is nothing more than pen&paper at the moment. I haven't started testing it. Nevertheless I see what you mean. I had the same problem with my Simic deck (Murkfiend Liege & Overbeing of Myth). Most probably what you see above won't be what I end up with but at least it will be my starting point.
LE
If you're going for a strict U/W Draw-go counter list you have access to five counters: Hindering Light, Overrule, Offering to Asha, Repel Intruders and Swift Silence. The latter three require 4 mana, and Overrule at 3 mana is a Spell Snip without the cycling option. (You also have access to Dovescape, but that's another build entirely.) Up against an aggro curve of Tattermunge or Figure on 1, Rip-Clan Crasher, Watchwolf, *-blade *-er, Qasali Pridemage or Scab-Clan Mauler on 2, with another one or Woolly Thoctar, Boggart Ram-Gang, Kitchen Finks or Rhox War Monk on 3 and a Liege or Knight of New Alara on 4 there will be enough on the table to kill you before you can get a Teferi's Moat down, and that's with spending all your mana to counter on turns 3 and 4. A UW deck would need to be more proactive, with cards like Plumeveil, Wall of Denial, Kitchen Finks or Crystallization to keep you alive. Most of the UW decks I've seen so far have been more aggro based than control based, although that's casual rather than queues.
A very informative article as usual. I do have a couple of comments,
1) Have you played against any gruul decks post Alara Reborn, it seems like they've gotten quite a bit faster with Hackblade and Bloodbraid?
2) Your Beauty and the Beast deck has 4 Deathbringers, and 4 Divinities of Pride with 24 lands and no Orzhov Basilicas. That seems a bit slow (ie, hard to get to 5 mana), especially when all of your removal costs 3 mana. I have a hard enough time getting my 3 Zurs and 3 Deathbringers out before the game is over with a deck with 25 land and 3 Basillicas. Have you had any mana problems with that deck?
Very good article, one of your best.
Good luck to you in Hawai.
I'm sorry I've just missed a glitch.In the Bant Aggro #1 list, the Dauntless Dourback is obviously Dauntless Escort.My bad.
Sorry I could only find 5cc control or other similar things, I was talkin about UW/UWB permission (draw/go), not other types of lists.
Lich's Mirror I'm sure is plausible. However, it means that you would have to cut a fatty and play it instead of a creature off a resolved Hypergenesis, or hope you live to be able to hardcast it. I guess the metagame and testing will prove its worth. Volcanic Fallout would be a great sideboard card.
Actually I talked about Control in Kaleidoscope in great detail. Also AJ_Impy had a very well written article about that strategy as well. If you browse back a few pages, you'll see those articles.
LE
What attitude?
LE
why does erman have an attitude when he response to a fonseca?
I'm surprised that nobody talks about permission in kaleidoskope! It's simply too powerful for a format that slow, with very few good 1st drops and many slow games: with all the counters from ravnica to ARB, you may simply sit there countering everything, draw something via esper charm, then win via a single windreaver or urza's factory.
I've won something like 20 casual games with that deck, it was simply good against everything (and keep in mind i lacked pillars, mortifies, meddling mages and many other good cards!)
However, nice article!
Surviving Helix is a nice bonus.But the removal to dodge would be Path to Exile / Terminate. Ajani Vengeant is a pain against this deck,that why I was thinking on adding more O-rings to the main board.The Cardmasters was featured in deckcheck dot net and thats where it appears that the other guy won.Ill try to have that corrected.
nice article!
pretty sure it was Vincent Gan who won the cardmaster tourney over in Asia and not that other guy. he also played jund but his version was different; no hell's thunder, etc. don't know why everyone seems to be messing this up :)
surviving helix seems to be about the best thing a creature can do in block.
What about Lich Mirror? It does gives U a 2nd chance, if it's "(do) or die" on 2nd turn. This deck I tested with my earlier version does kill also on 1st turn. With Lich Mirror (Cheap $0.5 rare) can give smack even more. Volcanic Fallout sideboard helps, as it's can't be countered and also helped by Simian Spirit Guide.
Gani
Looks fun and it's great that it may be viable/relevant in the format. I'm still shopping around ideas for the MOCS tourney coming up and I think this would be an exciting deck to consider.
But I think you'll find stoic to be a very solid card in your sideboard. At least, I liked her in the board when I played the deck a while back.
She survives Ajani V's helix activation.
She slows down rush deck
She survives Ajani V's helix activation.
She combos nicely with your exalted plan
She survives Ajani V's helix activation.
Jenara was one of the cards I considered,but its color requirements making it the second 3 drop at UWG kept me sceptical.I may try it in a future build. The Bant Sureblade its actually not impressive in the deck since First Strike is something unimportant here. Qasali Pridemage is useful as a walking Naturalize with Exalted while the infiltrator has evasion. Deft Duelist would be nice vs Bloodbraid Elf and Jund Hackblade. And then it would be bad vs Woolly Thoctar,Goblin Outlande,Wild Nacatl,Putrid Leech,Dauntless Escort,Bloodhall Ooze etc, so I dont see him coming in anytime soon. The borderpost have sinergy with the Blades but I prefer to have a land in instead of a borderpost. I may consider playing one or 2 but only as fixing. Stoic Angel as a 3/4 its actualy interesting to test and I'll run a set in the board to see if its worth it.
Tks for the comments!
Tommy Ashton commented that the reason he didnt run Jenara, Asura of War was that it was constantly being blocked by flying tokens. In T2 I can see that but in block it might be a contender. Probably better than the Dauntless Escort (but mabye harder to cast?). At least it would be harder to block. If you went the flying route then Stoic Angel would be reasonable in this deck or at least in the SB.
Also, Bant Sureblade seems like a solid choice for the T2 play. First Strike versus those hasty Jund Hackblades seems relevant. One first striker that may be even more relevant is the Deft Duelist. Your probably not playing enough blue for him but it seems like the Deft Duelist would be pretty good versus the Jund Deck with all that targeted removal.
I was toying with the idea of using Borderposts, which youd want to do if you went with the Bant Sureblade, but that just opens you up to someone having Vithian Renegades and wrecking you. Dunno...
Too bad Im too lazy to get enough cards for a block deck online. heh
-M