Anybody with a losing record in games where they've cast Kederekt Leviathan is not playing properly. I cannot remember offhand a game where I cast him and lost.
The proper way to think of Quietus Spike is that it makes all of your creatures >= to your opponents creatures.
I too disliked the block upon block of text regarding patch changes. I skipped it completely and picked it back up where you said that changes happen more regularly now than they did then. I think it would have been enough to say that, then have a "here's the evidence" link - but I'll appreciate the information that you provided up front for us.
Otherwise, great article! Your 'state of the program' is always a nice thing to see - the 'icing' on a Friday. ;-)
To be fair to you, i appreciate why your worried about the supply of the current tournament staples drying up, but the idea that it'll destroy the classic format is ludicrous! As I mentioned last week, on which I believe you disagreed (thank you by the way for replying), being unable to obtain certain cards is only
a problem if there is nothing else competitive printed!
Tournament staples are only such because they are the best at what they do. But print alternative options and people suddenly have viable options. In short demand for your staples will drop. There is also the fact that if noone can get them, then they'll have to play something else anyway.
As to reducing the price of classic sets, while i agree completely in theory, i have a feeling WoC won't do so with the cash cow of Urza's block just round the corner. Lets be honest, a comparison of tournament playables in mirage vs urza's saga is greatly skewed in favour of the latter. Are you really telling me demand for the latters block is going to be weak?
Move on? Have you seen how much debate and conversation this has inspired?
There are plenty of articles out there that address the play of various formats: block, draft, pauper, standard, etc etc etc.
There are few gems that address the state of MTGO and where things are headed for its future. You may not be interested in Classic, but the items that are presented here could influence Wizards to change future policy. The cost of the game (for new stuff & old stuff alike) may be influenced based on these topics & considerations!
I realize this sort of thing won't interest everyone - but it is important and of high relevance to everyone, whether you're up for reading about & discussing it or not!
Follow-up on your 3 points:
1. Agreed.
2. Agreed, AND - Dealers will arguably benefit MORE from a healthy classic environment. If Classic entry is barred, less people play it, dimishing the demand for Classic cards as a whole. By increasing the amt of Classic chase cards available, those prices drop, more people enter, the demand for the non-chase playables increases. Dealers make money.
3. "The idea of collectible digital objects is utterly laughable." Disagree, completely! If this were the case we would not play MTGO. We would not spend even $15 for a FOW - or anything else for that matter. We "collect" these items because they do have value. We'll buy packs & singles or play in drafts & other tournaments because the items we obtain are collectible - that being defined by the fact that they can be turned in for something of value.
Look also to other online objects. World of Warcraft gold, items, and characters. While the resale of these items is not endorced by Blizzard as Wizards supports the resale of its 'objects', this secondary market still accounts for many thousand of dollars through ebay and other offsale sites.
Further, consider Second life (or even Ultima Online.) People buy & sell currency and even online property there, among other things. I recall a game property being sold for many thousands of dollars (can't find the article at the moment.)
I won't even get into other sorts of digital items - think about how much companies might pay for the rights to a domain name, or the resale of a website for that matter (think of the amt of $ involved if Google or Ebay were to sell their core or subsidiary products.)
How about the stock market? Does it make sense to buy an arbitrary investment in a company? At least w/ digital cards we can play an awesome game of M:TG... ;-)
When you think about it, its kind of odd that I can trade some money (useful for .. fuel , communicatoin , etc...) for anything in the world? Food, Transportation, Shelter, etc. I mean, the paper at least is useful, but not THAT useful. :-)
I do understand what you mean though. Whenever I explain to friends that I play magic online and that it works similar to a physical card collection they find it quite odd. But the facts that this 'online commodity' is a) controlled in its distribution and b) that there is demand for it... It makes sense!
But it's there on purpose. When you're forced to look at everything, all together and compiled, it starts to dawn on you how much really has been done on V3 in the last year. I started the article by just grabbing the numbers of bullet items in the announcement, but that didn't really convey the amount of work that has been done.
Nope, it's not even close to being done.
Nope, they're still not great at rolling out changes.
But I wanted to show just how much HAS been done. And it really is a lot.
The life swing is fine, but that is still not enough to make me want to play a counter, especially with that mana cost. If you are behind on the board, you can't afford to sit on mana for a counter, which is the reason I don't like them. I would probably play Cancel over Punish Ignaorance in most decks unless my mana base was awesome, and I almost never play Cancel in this format. I do sometimes side in counters if my opponent is playing something like Hellkite Overlord or an Ultimatum that I have no other way to deal with, but I'm not going to maindeck them.
Adhering to a broken policy (not reprinting MED) because you previously committed yourself to it is the "hobgoblin of small minds" or somesuch. Wizards needs to change their policies based on changing conditions. FoW availability (and price!) was not a problem before, but now it is. Not changing their policy would be akin to "staying the course" in Iraq (sorry if that is too political).
Dealers are not going to be hurt by changing this policy. As you note in the article, dealers don't have the cards in stock to get hurt by it. The only people who would get hurt are those that buy FoW at its peak value. This can be ameliorated by Wizards first saying they will reprint FoW, then waiting some time, then reprinting. It may hurt those few people who are invested in the game, but it will benefit 90% of the rest of users. Furthermore, anyone who spent $300 on FoW is not likely to leave the game in protest.
Finally, the idea of collectible digital objects is utterly laughable. Magic Online is meant to be played, not collected. I can understand Wizards policy for paper cards, which have analogues of stamp or coin collections, but it is preposterous for "digital objects." Could you imagine asking someone what their hobby is, and they responded, "I collect digital cards."? Perhaps I am too old to get this, and youngsters everywhere will collect digital things on protected servers.
Pete, great work. I've enjoyed your thoughts both here and in your previous article on the topic. I'm with you in your theories. Hopefully the Wiz is watching too.
I realize that the reprint policy is protecting the values for players & dealers. But would there really be a huge impact if MED1 were put back on sale? I realize it would rescind a promise, but would people lose out tremendously? The ability to buy non-draftable packs at $4 in hopes of busting a chase rare while most of the stuff is worth little probably wouldn't have huge impact, but it might keep FOW in check so that it doesn't go up to the $200 price you mention.
I also wonder whether a) listing the classic sets at $3 and b) keeping them up for sale indefinitely, or at least at a much longer rotation, would be feesible.
I'm not completely against high value cards existing.. But like you said previously, over time FOW & duals will simply not be available. At all. Those that want them will have them and there will be very small numbers for sale at giant prices. I love that some cards can have large values next to them, but I HATE that this may completely block new players from entering the Classic format. Given enough time the format could be destroyed, as you & others have mentioned.
I realize my ideas are a bit lackluster, just wanted to aid the cause with some of my thoughts.
I hope WOTC is listening. The discount would stimulate otherwise ignored sets. Interest in older drafts can lead to interest in current drafts. More people playing is a good thing for all users. Keep the well-written articles coming!
The patchnotes part was a bit excessive, a link for the people really interested in every single line would have been enough, imho.
The pricing was, as always, quite interesting. I request lifetime graphs for Ravager and Tarmogoyf.
How about a space-saving table format for the "hottest cards" section in order to differentiate between c/u and rares (never seen a rare on that list so far) ?
So you can't rare-draft in ALA, just mythic-rare-draft? That's pretty creepy. Oh well, still not as bad a 10th edition, which is bigger and still has fewer rares worth anything.
Your articles are always well thought out and good reads - but - MOVE ON! You've been banging your keys over and over and over this for multiple websites for a while now; rehashing the same points.
Those points are valid but most of us simply don't give a flying monkey for classic. A little nostalgia is great - I for one started with antiquities/revised packs - but thats about all most players looks at these old sets for. Pauper has interest, but even lightning bolts are easily and cheaply obtainable.
Please, turn your considerable writing skills to something new. I am quite sure WOTC has read your diatribes and will act however they feel they need to.
Thank you.
I'm generally fairly sympathetic to WotC over MTGO. But the decision to sell non-redeemable sets for full MRSP is one that baffles me. Discounting Mirage et al. wouldn't cannibalize standard block sales, it wouldn't cannibalize real-world sales, and it would maximize the RoI of these already developed cards. Apart from being seen to set some sort of precident, I can't understand it.
The problem seems to stem from the fact that these old sets are no fun and have little impact in constructed and real world drafts. What if Wizards came up with a system where anybody could make say a precon or tournament pack, that is fully customizable(3 rares(no multiples), X uncommns, x commons). This format I think would drive sells of the product so that the cards would be in circulation, wether people draft or not.
Is meant to be a rare-drafting guide. I evidently didn't actually type out the words I was thinking in my head as I was working on it. I had meant to say:
"Below is a list of cards from each draftable set that cost more than 4 tickets. If you're interested in rare drafting, or are going to grab a card to help fund your next draft and can afford to make a pick based on that."
I wonder if Wizards has tried any price studies with the older sets by trying to find the optimal spot on the supply and demand curve to maximize profits? I'm betting their current price is no where near optimal. I won't buy any classic packs at the current price but I would buy a ton of them if they were $2 per pack to get all the fun old cards to play with. I'd imagine there are a lot of people like me. Plus, what the heck, its not like they cost them anything to print them. Why not sell as many as possible. It has to be good for business?
I agree with almost all of your valuations except for the ultimatums. In my experience they are virtually uncastable and usually end up being -1 card advantage in most games. I've had a cruel ultimatum once and in 7 games or so I only had the mana to cast it once (and I didn't draw it that game). Maybe if your fixing is good and you're solidly in those colors you can high pick it, but I'd never take it over removal, pingers, solid creatures, etc. The titanic ultimatum is especially dubious, since the effect is about on par with naya charm and naya charm is just so much better in every way. I'm much more inclined to take a risk for an 8 mana creature bomb than an ultimatum.
I've also never seen the realm razer be very good. It'd be a lot better as a 5/2 than a 4/2, allowing you to stall the game while drawing with drumhunter or burning with firestoker
Just to point out, I don't think there is such thing as playing around punish ignorance, unless you're in a position to not play any spells at all. Playing out a "dummy" spell still wastes a turn and swings the life by 6, which is still a pretty nice effect. The problem for me is more the awkward man, its definitely not worth putting extra strain on your mana base for, but when it fits, so far its been great for me. And man do they come late!
You should give titanic a try. Its actually the easiest to cast if you scoop up a couple of mana elves.
does playing magic online cost money
Anybody with a losing record in games where they've cast Kederekt Leviathan is not playing properly. I cannot remember offhand a game where I cast him and lost.
The proper way to think of Quietus Spike is that it makes all of your creatures >= to your opponents creatures.
Thanks for ALL the hard work you realized
I too disliked the block upon block of text regarding patch changes. I skipped it completely and picked it back up where you said that changes happen more regularly now than they did then. I think it would have been enough to say that, then have a "here's the evidence" link - but I'll appreciate the information that you provided up front for us.
Otherwise, great article! Your 'state of the program' is always a nice thing to see - the 'icing' on a Friday. ;-)
To be fair to you, i appreciate why your worried about the supply of the current tournament staples drying up, but the idea that it'll destroy the classic format is ludicrous! As I mentioned last week, on which I believe you disagreed (thank you by the way for replying), being unable to obtain certain cards is only
a problem if there is nothing else competitive printed!
Tournament staples are only such because they are the best at what they do. But print alternative options and people suddenly have viable options. In short demand for your staples will drop. There is also the fact that if noone can get them, then they'll have to play something else anyway.
As to reducing the price of classic sets, while i agree completely in theory, i have a feeling WoC won't do so with the cash cow of Urza's block just round the corner. Lets be honest, a comparison of tournament playables in mirage vs urza's saga is greatly skewed in favour of the latter. Are you really telling me demand for the latters block is going to be weak?
I won't play classic because of the huge barrier to entry. Case in point.
I see that it is to old for extended and know it is in another ballgame altogether. And the artwork certainly doesn't help.
Move on? Have you seen how much debate and conversation this has inspired?
There are plenty of articles out there that address the play of various formats: block, draft, pauper, standard, etc etc etc.
There are few gems that address the state of MTGO and where things are headed for its future. You may not be interested in Classic, but the items that are presented here could influence Wizards to change future policy. The cost of the game (for new stuff & old stuff alike) may be influenced based on these topics & considerations!
I realize this sort of thing won't interest everyone - but it is important and of high relevance to everyone, whether you're up for reading about & discussing it or not!
Follow-up on your 3 points:
1. Agreed.
2. Agreed, AND - Dealers will arguably benefit MORE from a healthy classic environment. If Classic entry is barred, less people play it, dimishing the demand for Classic cards as a whole. By increasing the amt of Classic chase cards available, those prices drop, more people enter, the demand for the non-chase playables increases. Dealers make money.
3. "The idea of collectible digital objects is utterly laughable." Disagree, completely! If this were the case we would not play MTGO. We would not spend even $15 for a FOW - or anything else for that matter. We "collect" these items because they do have value. We'll buy packs & singles or play in drafts & other tournaments because the items we obtain are collectible - that being defined by the fact that they can be turned in for something of value.
Look also to other online objects. World of Warcraft gold, items, and characters. While the resale of these items is not endorced by Blizzard as Wizards supports the resale of its 'objects', this secondary market still accounts for many thousand of dollars through ebay and other offsale sites.
Further, consider Second life (or even Ultima Online.) People buy & sell currency and even online property there, among other things. I recall a game property being sold for many thousands of dollars (can't find the article at the moment.)
I won't even get into other sorts of digital items - think about how much companies might pay for the rights to a domain name, or the resale of a website for that matter (think of the amt of $ involved if Google or Ebay were to sell their core or subsidiary products.)
How about the stock market? Does it make sense to buy an arbitrary investment in a company? At least w/ digital cards we can play an awesome game of M:TG... ;-)
When you think about it, its kind of odd that I can trade some money (useful for .. fuel , communicatoin , etc...) for anything in the world? Food, Transportation, Shelter, etc. I mean, the paper at least is useful, but not THAT useful. :-)
I do understand what you mean though. Whenever I explain to friends that I play magic online and that it works similar to a physical card collection they find it quite odd. But the facts that this 'online commodity' is a) controlled in its distribution and b) that there is demand for it... It makes sense!
There is a LOT of text there.
But it's there on purpose. When you're forced to look at everything, all together and compiled, it starts to dawn on you how much really has been done on V3 in the last year. I started the article by just grabbing the numbers of bullet items in the announcement, but that didn't really convey the amount of work that has been done.
Nope, it's not even close to being done.
Nope, they're still not great at rolling out changes.
But I wanted to show just how much HAS been done. And it really is a lot.
The life swing is fine, but that is still not enough to make me want to play a counter, especially with that mana cost. If you are behind on the board, you can't afford to sit on mana for a counter, which is the reason I don't like them. I would probably play Cancel over Punish Ignaorance in most decks unless my mana base was awesome, and I almost never play Cancel in this format. I do sometimes side in counters if my opponent is playing something like Hellkite Overlord or an Ultimatum that I have no other way to deal with, but I'm not going to maindeck them.
great article, congratulation and go on !
i will put there comments about all what you explained, but i need more time to format it in a well english ^^
Adhering to a broken policy (not reprinting MED) because you previously committed yourself to it is the "hobgoblin of small minds" or somesuch. Wizards needs to change their policies based on changing conditions. FoW availability (and price!) was not a problem before, but now it is. Not changing their policy would be akin to "staying the course" in Iraq (sorry if that is too political).
Dealers are not going to be hurt by changing this policy. As you note in the article, dealers don't have the cards in stock to get hurt by it. The only people who would get hurt are those that buy FoW at its peak value. This can be ameliorated by Wizards first saying they will reprint FoW, then waiting some time, then reprinting. It may hurt those few people who are invested in the game, but it will benefit 90% of the rest of users. Furthermore, anyone who spent $300 on FoW is not likely to leave the game in protest.
Finally, the idea of collectible digital objects is utterly laughable. Magic Online is meant to be played, not collected. I can understand Wizards policy for paper cards, which have analogues of stamp or coin collections, but it is preposterous for "digital objects." Could you imagine asking someone what their hobby is, and they responded, "I collect digital cards."? Perhaps I am too old to get this, and youngsters everywhere will collect digital things on protected servers.
Pete, great work. I've enjoyed your thoughts both here and in your previous article on the topic. I'm with you in your theories. Hopefully the Wiz is watching too.
I realize that the reprint policy is protecting the values for players & dealers. But would there really be a huge impact if MED1 were put back on sale? I realize it would rescind a promise, but would people lose out tremendously? The ability to buy non-draftable packs at $4 in hopes of busting a chase rare while most of the stuff is worth little probably wouldn't have huge impact, but it might keep FOW in check so that it doesn't go up to the $200 price you mention.
I also wonder whether a) listing the classic sets at $3 and b) keeping them up for sale indefinitely, or at least at a much longer rotation, would be feesible.
I'm not completely against high value cards existing.. But like you said previously, over time FOW & duals will simply not be available. At all. Those that want them will have them and there will be very small numbers for sale at giant prices. I love that some cards can have large values next to them, but I HATE that this may completely block new players from entering the Classic format. Given enough time the format could be destroyed, as you & others have mentioned.
I realize my ideas are a bit lackluster, just wanted to aid the cause with some of my thoughts.
I hope WOTC is listening. The discount would stimulate otherwise ignored sets. Interest in older drafts can lead to interest in current drafts. More people playing is a good thing for all users. Keep the well-written articles coming!
The patchnotes part was a bit excessive, a link for the people really interested in every single line would have been enough, imho.
The pricing was, as always, quite interesting. I request lifetime graphs for Ravager and Tarmogoyf.
How about a space-saving table format for the "hottest cards" section in order to differentiate between c/u and rares (never seen a rare on that list so far) ?
So you can't rare-draft in ALA, just mythic-rare-draft? That's pretty creepy. Oh well, still not as bad a 10th edition, which is bigger and still has fewer rares worth anything.
Your articles are always well thought out and good reads - but - MOVE ON! You've been banging your keys over and over and over this for multiple websites for a while now; rehashing the same points.
Those points are valid but most of us simply don't give a flying monkey for classic. A little nostalgia is great - I for one started with antiquities/revised packs - but thats about all most players looks at these old sets for. Pauper has interest, but even lightning bolts are easily and cheaply obtainable.
Please, turn your considerable writing skills to something new. I am quite sure WOTC has read your diatribes and will act however they feel they need to.
Thank you.
I'm generally fairly sympathetic to WotC over MTGO. But the decision to sell non-redeemable sets for full MRSP is one that baffles me. Discounting Mirage et al. wouldn't cannibalize standard block sales, it wouldn't cannibalize real-world sales, and it would maximize the RoI of these already developed cards. Apart from being seen to set some sort of precident, I can't understand it.
The problem seems to stem from the fact that these old sets are no fun and have little impact in constructed and real world drafts. What if Wizards came up with a system where anybody could make say a precon or tournament pack, that is fully customizable(3 rares(no multiples), X uncommns, x commons). This format I think would drive sells of the product so that the cards would be in circulation, wether people draft or not.
That for you.
Is meant to be a rare-drafting guide. I evidently didn't actually type out the words I was thinking in my head as I was working on it. I had meant to say:
"Below is a list of cards from each draftable set that cost more than 4 tickets. If you're interested in rare drafting, or are going to grab a card to help fund your next draft and can afford to make a pick based on that."
I wonder if Wizards has tried any price studies with the older sets by trying to find the optimal spot on the supply and demand curve to maximize profits? I'm betting their current price is no where near optimal. I won't buy any classic packs at the current price but I would buy a ton of them if they were $2 per pack to get all the fun old cards to play with. I'd imagine there are a lot of people like me. Plus, what the heck, its not like they cost them anything to print them. Why not sell as many as possible. It has to be good for business?
I agree with almost all of your valuations except for the ultimatums. In my experience they are virtually uncastable and usually end up being -1 card advantage in most games. I've had a cruel ultimatum once and in 7 games or so I only had the mana to cast it once (and I didn't draw it that game). Maybe if your fixing is good and you're solidly in those colors you can high pick it, but I'd never take it over removal, pingers, solid creatures, etc. The titanic ultimatum is especially dubious, since the effect is about on par with naya charm and naya charm is just so much better in every way. I'm much more inclined to take a risk for an 8 mana creature bomb than an ultimatum.
I've also never seen the realm razer be very good. It'd be a lot better as a 5/2 than a 4/2, allowing you to stall the game while drawing with drumhunter or burning with firestoker
Hey, glad you liked the article.
Just to point out, I don't think there is such thing as playing around punish ignorance, unless you're in a position to not play any spells at all. Playing out a "dummy" spell still wastes a turn and swings the life by 6, which is still a pretty nice effect. The problem for me is more the awkward man, its definitely not worth putting extra strain on your mana base for, but when it fits, so far its been great for me. And man do they come late!
You should give titanic a try. Its actually the easiest to cast if you scoop up a couple of mana elves.
I think nausea is a good choice vs pro black and the deck beat me in the last tournament: 187 ninjas
Tnx for the web