Hi Bazaar, It would be great if you wrote such an article.
Sorry all for the editing issues on this article, there was a small conflict I think caused with the editor upgrade the site just received. Hopefully this will be a one off problem.
Thanks U_T_H
Honestly I think Petal is superior in the normal build as well. If you think about it there really not to many match ups you have a great chance of going long in. Sure if you get that mox out early its great, but in the late game you are now down a card if you choose to imprint, or you loose the mana if you choose not too. I would just preffer to keep that slot open for counter or dig spells, ponder brainstom.
I think in most cases if not all once you start getting into a long game you odds of winning are deffinatly far less likely, unless is the dreaded necro vs necro battle that really so far as I have notice really depends on who draws first, and also what that other person keeps.
Darksteel Colossus has a replacement ability, not a triggered ability, so it can't be stifled. Since it never hits the grave, you can't actually Extirpate it either. I don't know if Leyline of the Void works on MTGO - normally, the Colossus' controller would choose which effect applies, but MTGO decides for the player. I assume, however, that the Colossus' effect would have precedence.
petal is awsome in this build because of the sb. in a regular build that dosent rely on a third color and small mini tendrils i would say that mox is an overall better choice because the permanent mana while not great in multiples is relevant with waste land seeing play. i really think thats why we lost to uncle as his deck could have 8 free counters on the play 4 discard and then 4 wastes all to slow us down enough for him to set up.
Thanks for the nice comment on the deck [I'm ilikefoils/wigician/patlam]. the Wb deck has problems with Jund. A lot of problems. All of my losses were to Jund in that tournament. I have yet to figure out a way around their sweepers and have not played in any tournaments since. I will test out the Wr deck this week. Looks fun.
Awesome article guys. I'm definitely on board with the Lotus Petal over Chrome Mox choice. I mentioned that in an article a while back, but never even thought about splashing for Goyf - which is a fantastic idea. Back then there was some discussion about Lotus Petal being bad in a Wasteland-heavy environment. Has this been a problem in reality? I haven't been able to test the deck much since then.
Two specific things that make Lotus Petal exciting that I think are worth mentioning:
- If you have one in play when you Necro for a bunch of cards, you can do things like Brainstorm during your end-step to find another black card to pitch to Soul Spike. This can be done with Chrome Mox, but in my testing it was a lot harder to pull off, mostly due to the color reasons mentioned in your article.
- Lotus Petal makes setting up your "win" turn much easier. You can usually pack in an extra piece of protection when your storm cards cost zero and don't require a dead card in hand to pitch.
This seems longer than my Master's thesis. I'll print that out at work, go home grab a beer, read your article, try to adjust a few of my classic decks...
Haha, classic joke on me in that match. I had a lot of egg on my face there but I'll try to be ready for you guys the next time around. Funny though how much Goyf is always better against Zoo than for Zoo. In my build it's always a necessary evil, but I always lose to the other player's Goyfs. Excellent job all around.
Also, the tandem article is very refreshing. Nice to see how people can still work together in this world.
+ countermagic main and a few hosers sprinkled about? Chant shores up some storm weaknesses, beats some aggro with Scepter, and of course protects the key spell. A resolved Chant needs only {6} more available to win from the hand that turn. If, say, Painter is already in play, then {4}.
I'd argue that O Ring is the most powerful common in the set. As Stinger is going up against O Ring, an uncommon, and a rare I don't feel it is as powerful as the other cards ;)
Sometimes I think Stinger is the correct choice but in an agressive Naya deck like this I like O Ring as it helps you keep pushing through lots of damage.
I didn't put up lists this time as feedback seemed negative with the lists in the previous part.
I'll have to admit, I don't have updated lists for control and combo decks especially with the bannings of gifts ungiven which could hold up many decks. I think only some individuals who have brainstormed the decks have those lists.
Hey Umii, I like how you poured out so many red cards out. (No idea how Rift bolt wasn't in my list but is should definitely be in the deck)
I never actually explained my deck so I'll take the chance to do so now. I do think our decks are very different. If we compare, yours plays out more like an aggro control while mine plays like a burn deck. I thought that the miner pairs were very mana consuming so I opted them out unlike what most people would do. While I knew they could win a good number of games, I didn't want to end up playing something possibly irrelevant in a matchup as I believe in "all-roundedness". I see in your comment that you somehow see why I dislike the miners. I would say "drop em" but I think that that would start some odd discussion so I'd rather not.
Hasted creatures act like burn spells as I rarely expect them to stay which is why I value them quite highly. Disintegrate & demonfire are there to remove troublesome creatures which may or may not have persist and Demonfire + Molten disaster + urza's rage are to throw the last points through counter magic.
I find that casting more spells can generally win the game more reliably than reusable effects so I try not to have cards that use up mana so that I can drop more spells down.
Also, you should play fetchlands not to "thin the deck" but to power up barbarian ring and grim lavamancer as they don't get much gas naturally. Shuffling is just a bonus and taking 1-2 damage doesn't hurt the deck much. You could even run a lone badland for the rakdos guildmage or a taiga for the gruul guildmage since you don't lose much.
About pendelhaven, as quoted by iceage, I would think that it would fit your deck as you run a good number of 1/1s and randomly dealing more damage is good. Demigod can still be cast decently at "6 mana" if you are concerned about it but it's a give and take situation I'd say.
Ideally, spitting earth should definitely be replaced with Skred if you can get snow mountains (I understand how it might be a simple budget problem too so I'm just saying) and I personally don't like oxidda golem as early on, it's a 3 mana 3/2 (if you have 100% mountains) and it can be killed by artifact kill. I do see that it works with sword of light and shadow (free creature) later on but I don't see many advantages past that.
Is orchish librarian good? I've seen it in the old sligh lists and in some singleton100 ones too. My list has top as I intend to find a way to put in shrapnel blast in the future. I wanted to see how often I would have access to an artifact in play but I don't think now is still the right time for that.
Before I end, I should say this: You should have stayed in the tournament for the pax. (simply conceding would have gotten you some!) =)
As I said in my report, I played mono red twice in five rounds, and looking at replays it probably represented 15-20% of the field, which is pretty big. I really liked Blade's monoW deck that made Top Eight, it had surprising staying power.
You're probably right about Magus of the Moon. I'm becoming less impressed by the Dwarven twins and Jaya, since they're all so mana intensive.
Pendelhaven was the last non-red land that I cut from my deck, so I certainly like it. It is very situational though. You normally don't have to worry about too many blockers, since you're probably burning the first few anyway. And as I said, Pendelhaven has a significant downside in that you can't play the heavy red spells like Demigod.
When we get (Dream Halls) and (Tropical Island) I wonder if that will be any good? Play the Halls, get +5/+5. Then pitch your hand for disruption against your opponent's disruption or more damage, and swing for lethal.
(Soul's Fire) might be another neat combo. Cast it, +3/+3. Target some damage. Swing.
In mono green Spirit Guide is always going to be better than petal. Later in game it can be cast as a +3/+3 to Plasm not to mention it being a 2/2. Sounds like your deck is very focused so i'd reocmend working on ways to find Manaplasm quickly. Worldly Tutor, Summoner's Pact, and Serum Powder seem like options.
I'm not sure which way I'll go yet for the mono-green version. I'm thinking mox/petals + Ancient Tombs improves my likelihood of landing a turn 1 'plasm. The other option is forests + regular free acceleration (Petals, Moxen, crypt, etc).
Going with forests opens up the ability for a free midgame Tangle Golem (or two) which would beef up a 'plasm nicely as well.
Heck, maybe I'll even run him in some janky green affinity deck (just green/blue for the Plasms and berserks). Nothings says "Booyah" like droping an early Plasm and then emptying a hand full of Frogmites and enforcers. Obviously it's not a strong enough for competitive deck, but I'm starting to get the itch for building up some decks for it. :)
I think turn one Manaplasm was probably off of Mana Crypt, which also lets you drop a turn one Signet. The reason I went for Signets over mana Elves is Firespout, which may not be good enough justification - I didn't get a chance to test out the deck with Elves or Birds.
Wouldn't some mana elves be good? I'm not a fan of a deck that has six cards for the first two turns of the game, four (Lightning Bolt) not even being cast then half the time. T1 Elf, t2 Manaplasm is much more exciting than t1 land, t2 land, t3 Manaplasm.
hamtastic are you running a set of Elvish Spirit Guides in your deck? Otherwise I'm confused as to your t1 Manaplasm.
I love that mono red is such a big deck and between six rounds of swiss and one round of top eight I faced it once :(. Matchup for mono white v mono red doesn't seem close.
The muticolor control decks are made to fight aggro so not sure why you would think the matchups would be really easy. I also think that not playing Magus of the Moon is a mistake as you might as well give yourself the chance for easy blowouts. Not playing Pendelhaven also seems like a mistake. Drawing a non mountain land only really hurts when you've only got two lands. The ablity to have your random 1/1s trade with 2/2s or get in for 2 damage should not be discounted.
Hi Bazaar, It would be great if you wrote such an article.
Sorry all for the editing issues on this article, there was a small conflict I think caused with the editor upgrade the site just received. Hopefully this will be a one off problem.
Thanks U_T_H
Share an edge; lose an edge.
Ah well. It's not like the deck is metagame warping or anything. I might write that article for you.
Thanks for the kind words.
BoB
Honestly I think Petal is superior in the normal build as well. If you think about it there really not to many match ups you have a great chance of going long in. Sure if you get that mox out early its great, but in the late game you are now down a card if you choose to imprint, or you loose the mana if you choose not too. I would just preffer to keep that slot open for counter or dig spells, ponder brainstom.
I think in most cases if not all once you start getting into a long game you odds of winning are deffinatly far less likely, unless is the dreaded necro vs necro battle that really so far as I have notice really depends on who draws first, and also what that other person keeps.
Darksteel Colossus has a replacement ability, not a triggered ability, so it can't be stifled. Since it never hits the grave, you can't actually Extirpate it either. I don't know if Leyline of the Void works on MTGO - normally, the Colossus' controller would choose which effect applies, but MTGO decides for the player. I assume, however, that the Colossus' effect would have precedence.
petal is awsome in this build because of the sb. in a regular build that dosent rely on a third color and small mini tendrils i would say that mox is an overall better choice because the permanent mana while not great in multiples is relevant with waste land seeing play. i really think thats why we lost to uncle as his deck could have 8 free counters on the play 4 discard and then 4 wastes all to slow us down enough for him to set up.
Thanks for the nice comment on the deck [I'm ilikefoils/wigician/patlam]. the Wb deck has problems with Jund. A lot of problems. All of my losses were to Jund in that tournament. I have yet to figure out a way around their sweepers and have not played in any tournaments since. I will test out the Wr deck this week. Looks fun.
Awesome article guys. I'm definitely on board with the Lotus Petal over Chrome Mox choice. I mentioned that in an article a while back, but never even thought about splashing for Goyf - which is a fantastic idea. Back then there was some discussion about Lotus Petal being bad in a Wasteland-heavy environment. Has this been a problem in reality? I haven't been able to test the deck much since then.
Two specific things that make Lotus Petal exciting that I think are worth mentioning:
- If you have one in play when you Necro for a bunch of cards, you can do things like Brainstorm during your end-step to find another black card to pitch to Soul Spike. This can be done with Chrome Mox, but in my testing it was a lot harder to pull off, mostly due to the color reasons mentioned in your article.
- Lotus Petal makes setting up your "win" turn much easier. You can usually pack in an extra piece of protection when your storm cards cost zero and don't require a dead card in hand to pitch.
This seems longer than my Master's thesis. I'll print that out at work, go home grab a beer, read your article, try to adjust a few of my classic decks...
Death to combo players!
Haha, classic joke on me in that match. I had a lot of egg on my face there but I'll try to be ready for you guys the next time around. Funny though how much Goyf is always better against Zoo than for Zoo. In my build it's always a necessary evil, but I always lose to the other player's Goyfs. Excellent job all around.
Also, the tandem article is very refreshing. Nice to see how people can still work together in this world.
the above comment was mine...it won't let me comment with my usual name.
How about looking for a U/W shell?
4x Painter
4x Grindstone
2x Scepter
4x Chant
4x Enlightened Tutor
2x Teferi
4x FoW
+ countermagic main and a few hosers sprinkled about? Chant shores up some storm weaknesses, beats some aggro with Scepter, and of course protects the key spell. A resolved Chant needs only {6} more available to win from the hand that turn. If, say, Painter is already in play, then {4}.
Ready for pulicatio
I'd argue that O Ring is the most powerful common in the set. As Stinger is going up against O Ring, an uncommon, and a rare I don't feel it is as powerful as the other cards ;)
Sometimes I think Stinger is the correct choice but in an agressive Naya deck like this I like O Ring as it helps you keep pushing through lots of damage.
I didn't put up lists this time as feedback seemed negative with the lists in the previous part.
I'll have to admit, I don't have updated lists for control and combo decks especially with the bannings of gifts ungiven which could hold up many decks. I think only some individuals who have brainstormed the decks have those lists.
If you want,
here is Chriskool's UW control: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1127756
here is a UB control from the 1st PE: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtg/daily/decks/mol8...
(you can look at the bottom for a control/reanimator breed)
here is a reanimator deck: http://www.puremtgo.com/articledisplay.asp?AID=1294
Hey Umii, I like how you poured out so many red cards out. (No idea how Rift bolt wasn't in my list but is should definitely be in the deck)
I never actually explained my deck so I'll take the chance to do so now. I do think our decks are very different. If we compare, yours plays out more like an aggro control while mine plays like a burn deck. I thought that the miner pairs were very mana consuming so I opted them out unlike what most people would do. While I knew they could win a good number of games, I didn't want to end up playing something possibly irrelevant in a matchup as I believe in "all-roundedness". I see in your comment that you somehow see why I dislike the miners. I would say "drop em" but I think that that would start some odd discussion so I'd rather not.
Hasted creatures act like burn spells as I rarely expect them to stay which is why I value them quite highly. Disintegrate & demonfire are there to remove troublesome creatures which may or may not have persist and Demonfire + Molten disaster + urza's rage are to throw the last points through counter magic.
I find that casting more spells can generally win the game more reliably than reusable effects so I try not to have cards that use up mana so that I can drop more spells down.
Also, you should play fetchlands not to "thin the deck" but to power up barbarian ring and grim lavamancer as they don't get much gas naturally. Shuffling is just a bonus and taking 1-2 damage doesn't hurt the deck much. You could even run a lone badland for the rakdos guildmage or a taiga for the gruul guildmage since you don't lose much.
About pendelhaven, as quoted by iceage, I would think that it would fit your deck as you run a good number of 1/1s and randomly dealing more damage is good. Demigod can still be cast decently at "6 mana" if you are concerned about it but it's a give and take situation I'd say.
Ideally, spitting earth should definitely be replaced with Skred if you can get snow mountains (I understand how it might be a simple budget problem too so I'm just saying) and I personally don't like oxidda golem as early on, it's a 3 mana 3/2 (if you have 100% mountains) and it can be killed by artifact kill. I do see that it works with sword of light and shadow (free creature) later on but I don't see many advantages past that.
Is orchish librarian good? I've seen it in the old sligh lists and in some singleton100 ones too. My list has top as I intend to find a way to put in shrapnel blast in the future. I wanted to see how often I would have access to an artifact in play but I don't think now is still the right time for that.
Before I end, I should say this: You should have stayed in the tournament for the pax. (simply conceding would have gotten you some!) =)
As I said in my report, I played mono red twice in five rounds, and looking at replays it probably represented 15-20% of the field, which is pretty big. I really liked Blade's monoW deck that made Top Eight, it had surprising staying power.
You're probably right about Magus of the Moon. I'm becoming less impressed by the Dwarven twins and Jaya, since they're all so mana intensive.
Pendelhaven was the last non-red land that I cut from my deck, so I certainly like it. It is very situational though. You normally don't have to worry about too many blockers, since you're probably burning the first few anyway. And as I said, Pendelhaven has a significant downside in that you can't play the heavy red spells like Demigod.
When we get (Dream Halls) and (Tropical Island) I wonder if that will be any good? Play the Halls, get +5/+5. Then pitch your hand for disruption against your opponent's disruption or more damage, and swing for lethal.
(Soul's Fire) might be another neat combo. Cast it, +3/+3. Target some damage. Swing.
Unfortunately Manaplasm's ability doesn't trigger when you cycle a card. There's a brief discussion in Mike Turian's article here:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/5
In mono green Spirit Guide is always going to be better than petal. Later in game it can be cast as a +3/+3 to Plasm not to mention it being a 2/2. Sounds like your deck is very focused so i'd reocmend working on ways to find Manaplasm quickly. Worldly Tutor, Summoner's Pact, and Serum Powder seem like options.
Dumb question perhaps, but would the Manaplasm benefit from cycling cards gaining the +X/+X actual mana cost?
If it does Slice, and Dice seems like perhaps a good card to side board in for Tower Above against blue control.
I'm not sure which way I'll go yet for the mono-green version. I'm thinking mox/petals + Ancient Tombs improves my likelihood of landing a turn 1 'plasm. The other option is forests + regular free acceleration (Petals, Moxen, crypt, etc).
Going with forests opens up the ability for a free midgame Tangle Golem (or two) which would beef up a 'plasm nicely as well.
Heck, maybe I'll even run him in some janky green affinity deck (just green/blue for the Plasms and berserks). Nothings says "Booyah" like droping an early Plasm and then emptying a hand full of Frogmites and enforcers. Obviously it's not a strong enough for competitive deck, but I'm starting to get the itch for building up some decks for it. :)
I think turn one Manaplasm was probably off of Mana Crypt, which also lets you drop a turn one Signet. The reason I went for Signets over mana Elves is Firespout, which may not be good enough justification - I didn't get a chance to test out the deck with Elves or Birds.
Wouldn't some mana elves be good? I'm not a fan of a deck that has six cards for the first two turns of the game, four (Lightning Bolt) not even being cast then half the time. T1 Elf, t2 Manaplasm is much more exciting than t1 land, t2 land, t3 Manaplasm.
hamtastic are you running a set of Elvish Spirit Guides in your deck? Otherwise I'm confused as to your t1 Manaplasm.
I love that mono red is such a big deck and between six rounds of swiss and one round of top eight I faced it once :(. Matchup for mono white v mono red doesn't seem close.
The muticolor control decks are made to fight aggro so not sure why you would think the matchups would be really easy. I also think that not playing Magus of the Moon is a mistake as you might as well give yourself the chance for easy blowouts. Not playing Pendelhaven also seems like a mistake. Drawing a non mountain land only really hurts when you've only got two lands. The ablity to have your random 1/1s trade with 2/2s or get in for 2 damage should not be discounted.
Another fine read....keep up the good work.
Would Orcish Lumberjack help with the RR and GG spells in the budget version?