I don't think players have overlooked the tribal angle at all, but perhaps it has never been taken to the nth degree in a successful deck. Part of this I see as the general uselessness of Nameless Inversion, which is only good when it removes opposing creatures, and many players are using high toughness and evasive creatures, or have counterspells and bounce to work around it. It's useless against Aurochs, Guardian of Guildpact, Noble Templar, and a long list of commonly seen creatures.
Ehi nice article, i think the most powerful decks played on mtgo is a nice info for the players, but i really think that the entire thing about standard t1 decks cost is a bit "wrong".
You know:
- elves decks can easily cut tarmogoyfs and win the same (we always forget that tarmo are nor magical, they are addressed as "the best creature in magic" but they can be it only if played well OR if they have a great backup (think about countertop). Lots of decks splash tarmo but they could have the same power even without it (or almost the same power, given the fact that graveyards are not always this full, except if you are playing against reanimator))
- the reanimator deck with the fujita list is extremely cheap if we compare it to doranrock (well, maybe it is not tier 1, ok), but then think about mannequin, the same, it is not over the 150 $, or the most powerful aggro-control decks of the moment, faeries: they are fast, powerful, and can wreck almost any deck played at the moment, the green/blu build is magnificent, hoses control, mannequin, elves and costs, with garruk, BoP, pithing needles, yavimaya coasts etc, no more than 130/150 $.
So maybe we should decide what "tier 1" decks are on MTGO, cause it's almost a matter of "fame" of the deck: people can buy whatever they want because of the fact you find cards without the need to trade, wait for them at the shop etc, and so they build everything they see played by this or that champion without even thinking about tweaking the deck, or without even knowing how to play it. It's not that unusual to find out guys that cannot sideboard, that shoots tharmogoyfs when they could be killed even by a shock etc.
Also, we should not consider competitive worth (and 5 or 10 $ worth) those cards that are junk but that have been played by a pro: for example i remember when aethermage's touch was 0,20 $, and then when it reached 2,5 because of blinktouch! c'mon, if you have bought it at 2,5 without understanding the fact that it is not a solid card out of that weak deck, you deserve the fact that someone becomes rich on you. The same could be said now for pyromancer's swath...wanna play Dstorm now? without the control tech of ravnica and only basing your power on a weak land that can be bounced in a moment and with a "counter target triggerered ability" with split second card in standard? well man, i would never loan you any money ehehehe
So I understand that MTGO wants to sell :) but it's even true that if you are a bit clever, and if you choose wisely what to play you can spend even low amounts of money on T2 (certainly, you must have the painlands or some duals, otherwise you'll always be too slow for every competitive format)
Evu: Sorry I missed Crypt Rats (even if I played against them) *embarassed*
I cannot justify my "incomplete undestanding" of Mike Flores' theory. It is a theory that tries to explain general magic. The theory uses words like "some decks", "actively dictate" and "small subset" all of which are subjected to value judgement. In more powerful formats, the line becomes very clear. It is because the powerful effects from certain cards allow for this occurance. To put this theory into the PPS format is difficult as commons were not made to be game altering. If I were to say, PPS does not fall into a deck that has a phase 3. While I might be wrong, only those with more understanding can point it out.
To be fair, I would say that the point of the theory is to zoom in on the importance of phase 1 and phase 3 is unneccessary here. However, I am aware that it does not look nice to show that I'm talking about something yet I have yet to completely grasp it.
Anonymous: Thanx. I don't think there would be a fully pimped version, being all commons and all but I suppose I should have put up a list. I find that it's a format that needs quite alot of time to refine the deck because the changes are so minute in value. I really think that people should assemble a deck together, play against people and pick up which cards are better and which cards are not and change their cards after that. The deck evolves quite a far amount. As a starter, I would suggest playing minimal red and white while having more green, blue and black. =)
Thanks for writing about this format, and especially for sharing the Tribal tech, which I hadn't thought about before.
You missed a couple of common sweepers -- Martyr of Ashes and Crypt Rats come to mind, although they do require significant dedication to a color.
One thing that bothered me about the article was the part where you said "I can’t really explain in terms of commons as I do not have a full understanding of this phase." If you're going to write about something you don't have a full understanding of, take the time to get a full understanding. Think about it, talk it over with some friends or fellow writers, maybe play some games and try to analyze them. There's no deadline here, so you have as much time as you need to work on improving your article before submitting it.
Thursday, 6 PST is good for me. I'm on the east coast (NC), but would be willing to stay up for another PE. A small price to pay for some extra classic tourney love.
Can you put the decklist from The Ervin Tormos Jazz Hour: Burning Wish Goblins, please. Two top8 and win one of them seems to be a very solid decklist. I'm testing Goblins for PTQ's i looking forward to see this decklist!
It is rare in Premier events and 8 man queues to see anything other than UBxManequin or BGelves. This is why most of the UBx decks you played were slow. IN the beggining all these decks packed 4 shriekmaw and 4 nameless inversion. Which means you just auto win vs. weenie white and a lot of other strategies. As the metagame has evolved, people essentially started playing with creatures that were immune to removal.
One way to look at this is to go through each of the creatures and give it a score based on how many of the removal spells in the format kill it. For example, take Shriekmaw, Nameless Inversion and Eyeblights Ending. Using this simple analsyis you can see why some of the creatures are seeing play:
Nath - 3/3 it can't be killed by any of those spells
Cairn Wanderer - 3/3 it can't be killed by any of those spells
Horde of Notions - 2/3 Eyeblight takes him out
Marsh Fitter - 0/3 everything kills it, but only kills 1/3 of it.
Cloudgoat Ranger -0/3 same as fitter
Dread - 2/3
Now take a look at some of the cards which look powerful, but really aren't
Brion - 1/3 its just out of inversion range.
Brigid, Hero of Kinsbaile - 0/3 All 3 spells kill it
Cloudthresher 1/3
Galepowder Mage - 0/3
Anyway, I could go on and on. But this is why you see oblivion ring and Chandra being used in the UBx decks. These cards deal with every single creature in the format and in the case of oblivion ring it even kills planeswalkers.
The long and short of it is that I think WW is fine for game 1 because anyone smart is tuning there deck game 1 to beat the mirror. Game 2, you had better have an awesome plan to beat 4 shriekmaw, 4 nameless inversion, 2 final revels, 4 oblivion rings, because almost any of the UBx decks can side into that. Its possible they even have more hate than th at, with sower of temptation, Chandra and eyeblights ending.
The Crib Swap can also deal with an big, fat Elemental, if they drop one mid game. A chump blocker can only stop most of the beaters for one turn - an Aethersnipe or similar fattie can do so for a lot longer.
Of course, Extract can go to the head as well. I could see boarding either.
Hey Whiff, I don't think his list is bad or anything, I just am uncomfortable with running 4-5 colors right now due to the pain you take. The second we have real duals I'll probably play a lot of UG/bw thresh ala Chapin at worlds, since I shouldn't have to take as MUCH pain at least. I see what you're saying about weakening the top-decking, but I really don't mind too much as I still run the deck manip (brainstorm/ponder) and have top in the side, plus, the additional lands, while some CIPT, are all creatures. I will take what you said into consideration though. Thanks and I appreciate the complements.
I really enjoyed the article! It's an interesting way to explore a format, without influence from the rest of the internet. I don't know if this means you're not looking for suggestions, but this is more of a question anyway: Why Crib Swap againt Smokebraider-powered elementals? Surely Moonglove Extract kills their 1/1 mox just as dead - at the same mana - and doesn't leave a 1/1 chump blocker in your path?
I'll look forward to the next one, thanks for writing!
4thly unfortunatly a second pe will most likly happen on saturday until we can support 4-5 a week. the reason i think this is that you said have a tourny starting around 6pm pst. now this would be great for any one living over in that time zone . but what about shumks like me. we have to start a 5-8 hour tournament at 9 at nite? a more fair solution on a week day would have to be 4pm pst. as i could see playing in a 7pm start time tourny and poping off to sleep around 1-2 am if i do well. but how will i wake up if i do that same tourny 2 hours later? and whatabout the other countrys around the world?
so anominity will not save me here as i will just say that i am whiify penguin on modo so there, now you know where to direct your hate mail.
1st off very nice article i enjoy your style of writing and the quirky dialog while "in game " walkthrus happen.
2ndly as a proponent of thresh in all its builds i have to disagree with your asertaion that kaxons list will lose to burn . the reason we added white in the first place was to combat burn in the sb via cop:red which is a lot more usefull then hydroblast. also the addition of stp gave you optins to send a goyf farming so that you may live.
3rdly Your list looks pretty cool. i wouldnt want to play it . but at the same time i would not like to play against you either.and as a side note i really wouldnt classify this deck as thresh but as a control deck because not only do you have citp tapped lands you have 22 which will severly disrupt your topdecking game that makes thresh so good. aslo threads md is a great idea, just hope the meta dosent shift on you or your stuck w/ 4 dead cards in the md.
I'm dumb, I do that. I would like to give props to Jamuraa and JX for their hard work (linking and editing) in the article. But yea, the list is good if you add standstill.
Yeah you really showed the amount of work you put into the article; very well done. Entertaining to both read casually and to break down for the gooey deck tech goodness inside.
I don't think players have overlooked the tribal angle at all, but perhaps it has never been taken to the nth degree in a successful deck. Part of this I see as the general uselessness of Nameless Inversion, which is only good when it removes opposing creatures, and many players are using high toughness and evasive creatures, or have counterspells and bounce to work around it. It's useless against Aurochs, Guardian of Guildpact, Noble Templar, and a long list of commonly seen creatures.
Ehi nice article, i think the most powerful decks played on mtgo is a nice info for the players, but i really think that the entire thing about standard t1 decks cost is a bit "wrong".
You know:
- elves decks can easily cut tarmogoyfs and win the same (we always forget that tarmo are nor magical, they are addressed as "the best creature in magic" but they can be it only if played well OR if they have a great backup (think about countertop). Lots of decks splash tarmo but they could have the same power even without it (or almost the same power, given the fact that graveyards are not always this full, except if you are playing against reanimator))
- the reanimator deck with the fujita list is extremely cheap if we compare it to doranrock (well, maybe it is not tier 1, ok), but then think about mannequin, the same, it is not over the 150 $, or the most powerful aggro-control decks of the moment, faeries: they are fast, powerful, and can wreck almost any deck played at the moment, the green/blu build is magnificent, hoses control, mannequin, elves and costs, with garruk, BoP, pithing needles, yavimaya coasts etc, no more than 130/150 $.
So maybe we should decide what "tier 1" decks are on MTGO, cause it's almost a matter of "fame" of the deck: people can buy whatever they want because of the fact you find cards without the need to trade, wait for them at the shop etc, and so they build everything they see played by this or that champion without even thinking about tweaking the deck, or without even knowing how to play it. It's not that unusual to find out guys that cannot sideboard, that shoots tharmogoyfs when they could be killed even by a shock etc.
Also, we should not consider competitive worth (and 5 or 10 $ worth) those cards that are junk but that have been played by a pro: for example i remember when aethermage's touch was 0,20 $, and then when it reached 2,5 because of blinktouch! c'mon, if you have bought it at 2,5 without understanding the fact that it is not a solid card out of that weak deck, you deserve the fact that someone becomes rich on you. The same could be said now for pyromancer's swath...wanna play Dstorm now? without the control tech of ravnica and only basing your power on a weak land that can be bounced in a moment and with a "counter target triggerered ability" with split second card in standard? well man, i would never loan you any money ehehehe
So I understand that MTGO wants to sell :) but it's even true that if you are a bit clever, and if you choose wisely what to play you can spend even low amounts of money on T2 (certainly, you must have the painlands or some duals, otherwise you'll always be too slow for every competitive format)
Evu: Sorry I missed Crypt Rats (even if I played against them) *embarassed*
I cannot justify my "incomplete undestanding" of Mike Flores' theory. It is a theory that tries to explain general magic. The theory uses words like "some decks", "actively dictate" and "small subset" all of which are subjected to value judgement. In more powerful formats, the line becomes very clear. It is because the powerful effects from certain cards allow for this occurance. To put this theory into the PPS format is difficult as commons were not made to be game altering. If I were to say, PPS does not fall into a deck that has a phase 3. While I might be wrong, only those with more understanding can point it out.
To be fair, I would say that the point of the theory is to zoom in on the importance of phase 1 and phase 3 is unneccessary here. However, I am aware that it does not look nice to show that I'm talking about something yet I have yet to completely grasp it.
Anonymous: Thanx. I don't think there would be a fully pimped version, being all commons and all but I suppose I should have put up a list. I find that it's a format that needs quite alot of time to refine the deck because the changes are so minute in value. I really think that people should assemble a deck together, play against people and pick up which cards are better and which cards are not and change their cards after that. The deck evolves quite a far amount. As a starter, I would suggest playing minimal red and white while having more green, blue and black. =)
Thanks for writing about this format, and especially for sharing the Tribal tech, which I hadn't thought about before.
You missed a couple of common sweepers -- Martyr of Ashes and Crypt Rats come to mind, although they do require significant dedication to a color.
One thing that bothered me about the article was the part where you said "I can’t really explain in terms of commons as I do not have a full understanding of this phase." If you're going to write about something you don't have a full understanding of, take the time to get a full understanding. Think about it, talk it over with some friends or fellow writers, maybe play some games and try to analyze them. There's no deadline here, so you have as much time as you need to work on improving your article before submitting it.
Thursday, 6 PST is good for me. I'm on the east coast (NC), but would be willing to stay up for another PE. A small price to pay for some extra classic tourney love.
you are welcome! Good luck at the PTQ!
THAKS!
You've already got Goldmeadow Harrier maindeck. Just "port" them by tapping Smokebraider with Harrier in their upkeep.
I'll do you one better. I'll post the list of the Burning Wish Goblins, and a more traditional list that I recently ptq'ed with.
Hi!
Can you put the decklist from The Ervin Tormos Jazz Hour: Burning Wish Goblins, please. Two top8 and win one of them seems to be a very solid decklist. I'm testing Goblins for PTQ's i looking forward to see this decklist!
Thanks
It is rare in Premier events and 8 man queues to see anything other than UBxManequin or BGelves. This is why most of the UBx decks you played were slow. IN the beggining all these decks packed 4 shriekmaw and 4 nameless inversion. Which means you just auto win vs. weenie white and a lot of other strategies. As the metagame has evolved, people essentially started playing with creatures that were immune to removal.
One way to look at this is to go through each of the creatures and give it a score based on how many of the removal spells in the format kill it. For example, take Shriekmaw, Nameless Inversion and Eyeblights Ending. Using this simple analsyis you can see why some of the creatures are seeing play:
Nath - 3/3 it can't be killed by any of those spells
Cairn Wanderer - 3/3 it can't be killed by any of those spells
Horde of Notions - 2/3 Eyeblight takes him out
Marsh Fitter - 0/3 everything kills it, but only kills 1/3 of it.
Cloudgoat Ranger -0/3 same as fitter
Dread - 2/3
Now take a look at some of the cards which look powerful, but really aren't
Brion - 1/3 its just out of inversion range.
Brigid, Hero of Kinsbaile - 0/3 All 3 spells kill it
Cloudthresher 1/3
Galepowder Mage - 0/3
Anyway, I could go on and on. But this is why you see oblivion ring and Chandra being used in the UBx decks. These cards deal with every single creature in the format and in the case of oblivion ring it even kills planeswalkers.
The long and short of it is that I think WW is fine for game 1 because anyone smart is tuning there deck game 1 to beat the mirror. Game 2, you had better have an awesome plan to beat 4 shriekmaw, 4 nameless inversion, 2 final revels, 4 oblivion rings, because almost any of the UBx decks can side into that. Its possible they even have more hate than th at, with sower of temptation, Chandra and eyeblights ending.
The Crib Swap can also deal with an big, fat Elemental, if they drop one mid game. A chump blocker can only stop most of the beaters for one turn - an Aethersnipe or similar fattie can do so for a lot longer.
Of course, Extract can go to the head as well. I could see boarding either.
Hey Whiff,
I don't think his list is bad or anything, I just am uncomfortable with running 4-5 colors right now due to the pain you take. The second we have real duals I'll probably play a lot of UG/bw thresh ala Chapin at worlds, since I shouldn't have to take as MUCH pain at least. I see what you're saying about weakening the top-decking, but I really don't mind too much as I still run the deck manip (brainstorm/ponder) and have top in the side, plus, the additional lands, while some CIPT, are all creatures. I will take what you said into consideration though. Thanks and I appreciate the complements.
Hi Pete,
I really enjoyed the article! It's an interesting way to explore a format, without influence from the rest of the internet. I don't know if this means you're not looking for suggestions, but this is more of a question anyway: Why Crib Swap againt Smokebraider-powered elementals? Surely Moonglove Extract kills their 1/1 mox just as dead - at the same mana - and doesn't leave a 1/1 chump blocker in your path?
I'll look forward to the next one, thanks for writing!
4thly unfortunatly a second pe will most likly happen on saturday until we can support 4-5 a week. the reason i think this is that you said have a tourny starting around 6pm pst. now this would be great for any one living over in that time zone . but what about shumks like me. we have to start a 5-8 hour tournament at 9 at nite? a more fair solution on a week day would have to be 4pm pst. as i could see playing in a 7pm start time tourny and poping off to sleep around 1-2 am if i do well. but how will i wake up if i do that same tourny 2 hours later? and whatabout the other countrys around the world?
so anominity will not save me here as i will just say that i am whiify penguin on modo so there, now you know where to direct your hate mail.
1st off very nice article i enjoy your style of writing and the quirky dialog while "in game " walkthrus happen.
2ndly as a proponent of thresh in all its builds i have to disagree with your asertaion that kaxons list will lose to burn . the reason we added white in the first place was to combat burn in the sb via cop:red which is a lot more usefull then hydroblast. also the addition of stp gave you optins to send a goyf farming so that you may live.
3rdly Your list looks pretty cool. i wouldnt want to play it . but at the same time i would not like to play against you either.and as a side note i really wouldnt classify this deck as thresh but as a control deck because not only do you have citp tapped lands you have 22 which will severly disrupt your topdecking game that makes thresh so good. aslo threads md is a great idea, just hope the meta dosent shift on you or your stuck w/ 4 dead cards in the md.
anyways great article and keep em coming.
I'm dumb, I do that. I would like to give props to Jamuraa and JX for their hard work (linking and editing) in the article. But yea, the list is good if you add standstill.
Sean, good job!
For your next article, I'd like to see a mix of Night at the Roxbery and Mannequin.
Dan
Just wanted to let you know that you left out the Stand Stills in the last deck list, although you mention them (and it's called TreshStill :D )
Cool ideas... thanks for the good stuff!
Great job at looking at a deck that everyone has seen from a new angle, or at least a fun to read one.
At that point I'll win due to the stuff I'm tapping out for? Heh.
i am gonna remember the baiting thing for when i play you.
Like I said in the teaser, I'm very impressed with this article.
Very creative and full of wit. 5/5
Yeah you really showed the amount of work you put into the article; very well done. Entertaining to both read casually and to break down for the gooey deck tech goodness inside.