You're right, Wrath may not work if they have Teeg in play. Mirri decks also run very few land, so you may not even get the mana to Wrath. Sunscour may work better, but you would have a very narrow window to cast it before Teeg could come down, and you'd also have to have something to follow it with. Simply having high-toughness creatures is a lot simpler solution.
As for the rats deck, I ran only three stones because they are absolutely terrible in multiples because they're legendary, and the Diabolic Tutors can fetch them really well. I agree the manabase could use some work, whether you want to include Desert to fight off small Goblins and Faeries, or go the Snow route. I really hate having my mana come into play tapped, although that is not too much of a problem for this deck. Urza's Factory or a splash of Academy Ruins off of River of Tears/Prismatic Lens are also be possible.
I would love to see a thursday morning event for classic..that way I could get in on the action.. sundays are just hard for me to do mostly because I have to go to work at 4 (which is about the time they are in the middle of the event) anyways.. good article and I found some interesting ideas I may put forth to my decks.. good job.
Wog is not that efficent in Mirri mirror. You cant play it if your oppeont got Gadduck in play and he will have first shot at dropping a couple afterwards anyway. Ok you MIGHT (as in you got 15 life and he is playing a agroish deck) survive until turn 4-5 (since you are going second he will have alot of time until that point) where you can wrath and follow it up with a one drop (if 4 it proberly needs to be topter) but 1 1 drop proberly isnt egough at that point :/ AND it will be alot of cards to use for one matchup (mirror) exspecially then it isn't that efficent even in that matchup either. A better solution would be Sunscour. Yes you make a 3 for 1 or 3 for 2 (which is efficently a 3 for 2 or a 3 for 3 since you went second and got a extra card) and can then procede like if you played first which is proberly around the best chance you can get in mirri mirror. Naturally this does require a pretty white deck - which you might have sided in...
Btw. why are you running 3 Thrumming stones (as in not 4)?
There are no sideboards in the Tribal format, so you don't have to worry about Extirpate. Also, since it's Tribal, most people don't play Thoughtseize. For Standard, it is extremely vulnerable, no doubt.
Hey sorry for not posting but I have been away from a computer all weekend. Anyways, I really appreciate all the feedback, but I want to address the occuring theme of this deck not being PE viable.
I gave my most updated decklist to someone who wanted it on friday(so many trolls), and he took it to a 3rd/4th finish in the PE room on Saturday. I think that says a lot about the deck in general if someone can pick it up a day before a PE and do that well in it. I'll concede that the deck might look inconsistent or vulnerable to hate, but it is actually quite resilient and pretty much always hits the combo by turn 5, if not earlier.
As for the updated decklist, There's not much new other than geyser is now a cunning wish, and the sideboard is a little different with orim's chant, geyser, and a few other cards now in it.
@iceage4life- I like the idea of City of Solitude. Eyes is now gone from the sb, so I think this will fit in nicely.
@tarmotog- I know what you mean about some of the decks methods for finding win conditions being unfriendly to the PE timer, but at most it only takes 6-7 mins to win. Cards like whispers and nivix would be exremely clunky if you had to go through every card in your deck, but when going through your deck you can speed up the process when you hit tutors instead of win conditions. Most of the time you only go through 5 or 6 cards before you find something that can lead you to a win condition.
Laquatus im afraind is a necessary evil as far as time requirements. This is mainly because it kills if you dont have a red mana source source available, and it gets around various damage prevention cards that pop up. While 40-50 mana might seem like a lot to generate, it only takes a couple minutes at most, so you really aren't threatened too much by the clock.
Hey sorry for not posting but I have been away from a computer all weekend. Anyways, I really appreciate all the feedback, but I want to address the occuring theme of this deck not being PE viable.
I gave my most updated decklist to someone who wanted it on friday(so many trolls), and he took it to a 3rd/4th finish in the PE room on Saturday. I think that says a lot about the deck in general if someone can pick it up a day before a PE and do that well in it. I'll concede that the deck might look inconsistent or vulnerable to hate, but it is actually quite resilient and pretty much always hits the combo by turn 5, if not earlier.
As for the updated decklist, There's not much new other than geyser is now a cunning wish, and the sideboard is a little different with orim's chant, geyser, and a few other cards now in it.
@iceage4life- I like the idea of City of Solitude. Eyes is now gone from the sb, so I think this will fit in nicely.
@tarmotog- I know what you mean about some of the decks methods for finding win conditions being unfriendly to the PE timer, but at most it only takes 6-7 mins to win. Cards like whispers and nivix would be exremely clunky if you had to go through every card in your deck, but when going through your deck you can speed up the process when you hit tutors instead of win conditions. Most of the time you only go through 5 or 6 cards before you find something that can lead you to a win condition.
Laquatus im afraind is a necessary evil as far as time requirements. This is mainly because it kills if you dont have a red mana source source available, and it gets around various damage prevention cards that pop up. While 40-50 mana might seem like a lot to generate, it only takes a couple minutes at most, so you really aren't threatened too much by the clock.
Hey sorry for not posting but I have been away from a computer all weekend. Anyways, I really appreciate all the feedback, but I want to address the occuring theme of this deck not being PE viable.
I gave my most updated decklist to someone who wanted it on friday(so many trolls), and he took it to a 3rd/4th finish in the PE room on Saturday. I think that says a lot about the deck in general if someone can pick it up a day before a PE and do that well in it. I'll concede that the deck might look inconsistent or vulnerable to hate, but it is actually quite resilient and pretty much always hits the combo by turn 5, if not earlier.
As for the updated decklist, There's not much new other than geyser is now a cunning wish, and the sideboard is a little different with orim's chant, geyser, and a few other cards now in it.
@iceage4life- I like the idea of City of Solitude. Eyes is now gone from the sb, so I think this will fit in nicely.
@tarmotog- I know what you mean about some of the decks methods for finding win conditions being unfriendly to the PE timer, but at most it only takes 6-7 mins to win. Cards like whispers and nivix would be exremely clunky if you had to go through every card in your deck, but when going through your deck you can speed up the process when you hit tutors instead of win conditions. Most of the time you only go through 5 or 6 cards before you find something that can lead you to a win condition.
Laquatus im afraind is a necessary evil as far as time requirements. This is mainly because it kills if you dont have a red mana source source available, and it gets around various damage prevention cards that pop up. While 40-50 mana might seem like a lot to generate, it only takes a couple minutes at most, so you really aren't threatened too much by the clock.
Frankly, control decks showing up in masses is a good thing for this deck. The fact that this necromancy is instant speed can mess things up. However, this deck is not at all "turn 3-5 consistent" even though it can get to the win fast. I hate playing this deck against aggro decks because they really set the clock for you to combo off. Especially because this is not a 2 card combo but a "2 card combo with another win condition".
Of the many combos available, this combo is the clunkiest to set up but should be one of the easiest to. Easiest because you can have a variation to the cards you need. Clunkiest because your tutors cannot hit the same target at the same time.
Also, I think you can clean up the deck abit because if you want to combo off in a PE, you are going to take forever with laquatus. Seriously, I doubt you want to generate 40-50+ mana and mill the fella to death. Maybe you've done it in duels where people scoop cos they see the thing and there's no point in playing but in the PE where they will let you play it out and I believe anyone trying to take this deck will lose not because they lose but because of the time issue which can be very real when you are busy trying to go off.
What I mean by cleaning up, is to refine the cards used for a more PE friendly deck. For instance, you don't need ghitu fire. Nivix and whispers of the muse are both very difficult to use well given time issues and the tediousness to. Some of the lands are bad in the deck too especially oboro or urborg that don't serve any special purpose besides fufilling the "full singleton".
I believe that the living wish for dragon is not what you want to achieve. Research/Development would be alot better because besides careful study,insidious dreams and read the runes, you wouldn't be able to discard it whereas you can do plays like eot research, entomb, necromancy. Your sb needs more work too. I doubt your opponent will have trouble with eyes and such because they only have to mess up 3 cards to win.
I believe that this deck can get into the top 8 of PEs, provided: 1) The deck is very well refined 2) The pilot is very skilled 3) The cards people play do not include too many castable cards in a short time span like slaughter pact because you don't have that many cards to disrupt you opponent but you would usually be able to disrupt past the strong cards to win 4) No active counterbalance
UW is ok.. UGW is ok.. UB is slightly bad because of discard which can hurt the plan.. RG is ok if your hands are good.. Other combo = good provided you can combo off first..
The deck concept itself is good but the cards to assemble them are not as efficient as in other combos. If I were to play this, I would play this only once in a while.
Btw. the most obvious interresting card I can see in morningtide: Oonas Blackguard. All Mirris creatures becomes Spectars after a turns delay.
But yes Mirri mirror is THE most non interactive games ever. The one who win the die roll wins the match in 80% or more of the games (this is putting it low, I suspect) and you cant really construct your way out of it (high toughness only gets you so far).
Forums everywhere are pouring over this card, mostly because the warriors in standard are pretty good. Whether the deck is good enough to cut it is something yet to be determined. I see a decent 'warrior' deck on the backs of Countryside Crusher and Imperious Perfect.
Great article and it allows us to take a peek behind the curtains.
I totally agree here with hamtastic. No matter what currency used it's always going to be supply and demand. If you have enough market information to go around you can make a buck or two but the amount of work it takes isn't worth it.
If i want something and can get it within 5 minutes, then this is worth more to me than spending 60 minutes looking for cards to save me $2.
Apart from that, heath has never ask for donations, obligated fees or none of that and i love the thought that with my purchase i help to improve the quality of the website and the articles, if only for a minimal effect.
With the Wild Pair trigger on the stack, you get mana from Wall of Roots and put one -0/-1 counter on it. Wild Pair trigger resolves, see's a 0/4 and lets you get a 2/2 creature :)
Note: Wild Pair says total power & toughness. You play the Wall of roots, Wild Pair triggers, before it resolves you use the wall's ability to make a mana, making it 0/4(4 total), Wild Pair ability resolves, and you can go get the Cloudskate (2/2=4 total p/t).
Well done, nice first article. I would love there to be a PE viable combo deck in singleton but I think this won't cut it. The fact that the last top eight had 5+ blue-based control decks means a combo like this will have issues.
I would also want to fit Duress and Thoughtseize into the maindeck or at least the sideboard.
Last: City of Solitude would probably beat say Seedtime or Eyes of the Wisent for a sideboard slot.
lol.. Yeah.. Aggro decks can't win control if they have mana issues. Avoid spamming lands that come into play tapped too. They really make you lose the edge. Similarly, I learnt it the hard way some time ago.
Your thinking that rdw will win is quite a good one because of the characteristics of the format which allow you to punish greedy decks. A 5c rock deck with such a high placing is evidence that aggro decks are not having much business. Rock based decks with at least 4c tend to have a very strong mid-late game but they can't efficiently fight early because of early mana problems which will definitely arise.
I would believe that the pilot of that deck was either very brave or very smart when choosing such a deck.
Anyway, if you want to play rdw, you would need some form of backup plan against aggro decks cos they are very tough to beat. Sadly, I have yet to be able to come up with an effective plan but I believe that Morningtide should help alot in that area. (You could always just cross your fingers and make a brutal anti control deck) Good luck =)
You're right, Wrath may not work if they have Teeg in play. Mirri decks also run very few land, so you may not even get the mana to Wrath. Sunscour may work better, but you would have a very narrow window to cast it before Teeg could come down, and you'd also have to have something to follow it with. Simply having high-toughness creatures is a lot simpler solution.
As for the rats deck, I ran only three stones because they are absolutely terrible in multiples because they're legendary, and the Diabolic Tutors can fetch them really well. I agree the manabase could use some work, whether you want to include Desert to fight off small Goblins and Faeries, or go the Snow route. I really hate having my mana come into play tapped, although that is not too much of a problem for this deck. Urza's Factory or a splash of Academy Ruins off of River of Tears/Prismatic Lens are also be possible.
I would love to see a thursday morning event for classic..that way I could get in on the action.. sundays are just hard for me to do mostly because I have to go to work at 4 (which is about the time they are in the middle of the event) anyways.. good article and I found some interesting ideas I may put forth to my decks.. good job.
Wog is not that efficent in Mirri mirror. You cant play it if your oppeont got Gadduck in play and he will have first shot at dropping a couple afterwards anyway. Ok you MIGHT (as in you got 15 life and he is playing a agroish deck) survive until turn 4-5 (since you are going second he will have alot of time until that point) where you can wrath and follow it up with a one drop (if 4 it proberly needs to be topter) but 1 1 drop proberly isnt egough at that point :/ AND it will be alot of cards to use for one matchup (mirror) exspecially then it isn't that efficent even in that matchup either. A better solution would be Sunscour. Yes you make a 3 for 1 or 3 for 2 (which is efficently a 3 for 2 or a 3 for 3 since you went second and got a extra card) and can then procede like if you played first which is proberly around the best chance you can get in mirri mirror. Naturally this does require a pretty white deck - which you might have sided in...
Btw. why are you running 3 Thrumming stones (as in not 4)?
Nice! Well done. As far as Thoughtseize+Extirpate there are no sideboards in the format so I doubt you'll see that.
I don't see a reason for this deck NOT to run snow lands/Coldsteel Heart. Giving yourself more card draw post wrath can't hurt.
That's one of the better and creative pieces of writing I've seen about magic. The review about Doran is solid, but the style and approach is awesome.
There are no sideboards in the Tribal format, so you don't have to worry about Extirpate. Also, since it's Tribal, most people don't play Thoughtseize. For Standard, it is extremely vulnerable, no doubt.
I really like the deck, although the matchup vs a good goblin deck isn't as high as you thought post board, since
thoughtseize + extirpate = game
Hey sorry for not posting but I have been away from a computer all weekend. Anyways, I really appreciate all the feedback, but I want to address the occuring theme of this deck not being PE viable.
I gave my most updated decklist to someone who wanted it on friday(so many trolls), and he took it to a 3rd/4th finish in the PE room on Saturday. I think that says a lot about the deck in general if someone can pick it up a day before a PE and do that well in it. I'll concede that the deck might look inconsistent or vulnerable to hate, but it is actually quite resilient and pretty much always hits the combo by turn 5, if not earlier.
As for the updated decklist, There's not much new other than geyser is now a cunning wish, and the sideboard is a little different with orim's chant, geyser, and a few other cards now in it.
@iceage4life- I like the idea of City of Solitude. Eyes is now gone from the sb, so I think this will fit in nicely.
@tarmotog- I know what you mean about some of the decks methods for finding win conditions being unfriendly to the PE timer, but at most it only takes 6-7 mins to win. Cards like whispers and nivix would be exremely clunky if you had to go through every card in your deck, but when going through your deck you can speed up the process when you hit tutors instead of win conditions. Most of the time you only go through 5 or 6 cards before you find something that can lead you to a win condition.
Laquatus im afraind is a necessary evil as far as time requirements. This is mainly because it kills if you dont have a red mana source source available, and it gets around various damage prevention cards that pop up. While 40-50 mana might seem like a lot to generate, it only takes a couple minutes at most, so you really aren't threatened too much by the clock.
Hey sorry for not posting but I have been away from a computer all weekend. Anyways, I really appreciate all the feedback, but I want to address the occuring theme of this deck not being PE viable.
I gave my most updated decklist to someone who wanted it on friday(so many trolls), and he took it to a 3rd/4th finish in the PE room on Saturday. I think that says a lot about the deck in general if someone can pick it up a day before a PE and do that well in it. I'll concede that the deck might look inconsistent or vulnerable to hate, but it is actually quite resilient and pretty much always hits the combo by turn 5, if not earlier.
As for the updated decklist, There's not much new other than geyser is now a cunning wish, and the sideboard is a little different with orim's chant, geyser, and a few other cards now in it.
@iceage4life- I like the idea of City of Solitude. Eyes is now gone from the sb, so I think this will fit in nicely.
@tarmotog- I know what you mean about some of the decks methods for finding win conditions being unfriendly to the PE timer, but at most it only takes 6-7 mins to win. Cards like whispers and nivix would be exremely clunky if you had to go through every card in your deck, but when going through your deck you can speed up the process when you hit tutors instead of win conditions. Most of the time you only go through 5 or 6 cards before you find something that can lead you to a win condition.
Laquatus im afraind is a necessary evil as far as time requirements. This is mainly because it kills if you dont have a red mana source source available, and it gets around various damage prevention cards that pop up. While 40-50 mana might seem like a lot to generate, it only takes a couple minutes at most, so you really aren't threatened too much by the clock.
Hey sorry for not posting but I have been away from a computer all weekend. Anyways, I really appreciate all the feedback, but I want to address the occuring theme of this deck not being PE viable.
I gave my most updated decklist to someone who wanted it on friday(so many trolls), and he took it to a 3rd/4th finish in the PE room on Saturday. I think that says a lot about the deck in general if someone can pick it up a day before a PE and do that well in it. I'll concede that the deck might look inconsistent or vulnerable to hate, but it is actually quite resilient and pretty much always hits the combo by turn 5, if not earlier.
As for the updated decklist, There's not much new other than geyser is now a cunning wish, and the sideboard is a little different with orim's chant, geyser, and a few other cards now in it.
@iceage4life- I like the idea of City of Solitude. Eyes is now gone from the sb, so I think this will fit in nicely.
@tarmotog- I know what you mean about some of the decks methods for finding win conditions being unfriendly to the PE timer, but at most it only takes 6-7 mins to win. Cards like whispers and nivix would be exremely clunky if you had to go through every card in your deck, but when going through your deck you can speed up the process when you hit tutors instead of win conditions. Most of the time you only go through 5 or 6 cards before you find something that can lead you to a win condition.
Laquatus im afraind is a necessary evil as far as time requirements. This is mainly because it kills if you dont have a red mana source source available, and it gets around various damage prevention cards that pop up. While 40-50 mana might seem like a lot to generate, it only takes a couple minutes at most, so you really aren't threatened too much by the clock.
Frankly, control decks showing up in masses is a good thing for this deck. The fact that this necromancy is instant speed can mess things up. However, this deck is not at all "turn 3-5 consistent" even though it can get to the win fast. I hate playing this deck against aggro decks because they really set the clock for you to combo off. Especially because this is not a 2 card combo but a "2 card combo with another win condition".
Of the many combos available, this combo is the clunkiest to set up but should be one of the easiest to. Easiest because you can have a variation to the cards you need. Clunkiest because your tutors cannot hit the same target at the same time.
Also, I think you can clean up the deck abit because if you want to combo off in a PE, you are going to take forever with laquatus. Seriously, I doubt you want to generate 40-50+ mana and mill the fella to death. Maybe you've done it in duels where people scoop cos they see the thing and there's no point in playing but in the PE where they will let you play it out and I believe anyone trying to take this deck will lose not because they lose but because of the time issue which can be very real when you are busy trying to go off.
What I mean by cleaning up, is to refine the cards used for a more PE friendly deck. For instance, you don't need ghitu fire. Nivix and whispers of the muse are both very difficult to use well given time issues and the tediousness to. Some of the lands are bad in the deck too especially oboro or urborg that don't serve any special purpose besides fufilling the "full singleton".
I believe that the living wish for dragon is not what you want to achieve. Research/Development would be alot better because besides careful study,insidious dreams and read the runes, you wouldn't be able to discard it whereas you can do plays like eot research, entomb, necromancy.
Your sb needs more work too. I doubt your opponent will have trouble with eyes and such because they only have to mess up 3 cards to win.
I believe that this deck can get into the top 8 of PEs, provided:
1) The deck is very well refined
2) The pilot is very skilled
3) The cards people play do not include too many castable cards in a short time span like slaughter pact because you don't have that many cards to disrupt you opponent but you would usually be able to disrupt past the strong cards to win
4) No active counterbalance
UW is ok.. UGW is ok.. UB is slightly bad because of discard which can hurt the plan.. RG is ok if your hands are good.. Other combo = good provided you can combo off first..
The deck concept itself is good but the cards to assemble them are not as efficient as in other combos. If I were to play this, I would play this only once in a while.
Oona's balckguard can simply get you killed hard core. a decent number of people play that elf that lets you kill a creature with a +1+1 on it.
you could potentially never get dudes again!
Oona's balckguard can simply get you killed hard core. a decent number of people play that elf that lets you kill a creature with a +1+1 on it.
you could potentially never get dudes again!
Mituliak was playing BU control with Dakkon.
Btw. the most obvious interresting card I can see in morningtide: Oonas Blackguard. All Mirris creatures becomes Spectars after a turns delay.
But yes Mirri mirror is THE most non interactive games ever. The one who win the die roll wins the match in 80% or more of the games (this is putting it low, I suspect) and you cant really construct your way out of it (high toughness only gets you so far).
Well lucky for Tribal Wars Standard, it is based on Standard. So if there is a good warrior deck it will work there. I think there will be.
RE: tarmotog yeah I have no idea think a Singleton control tuned for mirror is the way to go (U/W)
Thanks Umii for the info looks like Vanguard didn't fire this weekend. Stupid Mirri.
yay elves
Similar as in both are combo decks? I don't see much connection between a Heartbeat Desire deck and a Worldgorger Dragon deck.
But hey, what do I know?
Forums everywhere are pouring over this card, mostly because the warriors in standard are pretty good. Whether the deck is good enough to cut it is something yet to be determined. I see a decent 'warrior' deck on the backs of Countryside Crusher and Imperious Perfect.
... a question, how you end dragon/animate infinite loop?
Great article and it allows us to take a peek behind the curtains.
I totally agree here with hamtastic. No matter what currency used it's always going to be supply and demand. If you have enough market information to go around you can make a buck or two but the amount of work it takes isn't worth it.
If i want something and can get it within 5 minutes, then this is worth more to me than spending 60 minutes looking for cards to save me $2.
Apart from that, heath has never ask for donations, obligated fees or none of that and i love the thought that with my purchase i help to improve the quality of the website and the articles, if only for a minimal effect.
Keep up the good work guys
With the Wild Pair trigger on the stack, you get mana from Wall of Roots and put one -0/-1 counter on it. Wild Pair trigger resolves, see's a 0/4 and lets you get a 2/2 creature :)
Note: Wild Pair says total power & toughness. You play the Wall of roots, Wild Pair triggers, before it resolves you use the wall's ability to make a mana, making it 0/4(4 total), Wild Pair ability resolves, and you can go get the Cloudskate (2/2=4 total p/t).
Well done, nice first article. I would love there to be a PE viable combo deck in singleton but I think this won't cut it. The fact that the last top eight had 5+ blue-based control decks means a combo like this will have issues.
I would also want to fit Duress and Thoughtseize into the maindeck or at least the sideboard.
Last: City of Solitude would probably beat say Seedtime or Eyes of the Wisent for a sideboard slot.
Like the deck, maybe it will be viable some day.
I know it has been said before, but seriously?
I think douser is the second best common ( mulldrifter is obv better) for blue. It's good in merfolk and faeries.
only blue deck he doesnt work in is the RU elemental, and even there he's decent.
I also would have taken the turtleshell over the sentinals.
nobody runs into sentinels and while a 2/3 flier for 4 is fine, your merfolk really want a big ass butt to block.
I agree with rare drafting the Hub, this isnt the Pro Tour or PTQ, just like the Doran, take the tix.
lol.. Yeah.. Aggro decks can't win control if they have mana issues. Avoid spamming lands that come into play tapped too. They really make you lose the edge. Similarly, I learnt it the hard way some time ago.
Your thinking that rdw will win is quite a good one because of the characteristics of the format which allow you to punish greedy decks. A 5c rock deck with such a high placing is evidence that aggro decks are not having much business. Rock based decks with at least 4c tend to have a very strong mid-late game but they can't efficiently fight early because of early mana problems which will definitely arise.
I would believe that the pilot of that deck was either very brave or very smart when choosing such a deck.
Anyway, if you want to play rdw, you would need some form of backup plan against aggro decks cos they are very tough to beat. Sadly, I have yet to be able to come up with an effective plan but I believe that Morningtide should help alot in that area. (You could always just cross your fingers and make a brutal anti control deck) Good luck =)