Yeah I was just as surprised that Vampiric tutor was so so so cheap. It was a must for any black deck at that price point.
As for the board wipes, I agree in general board wipes hurt if you're killing you're own commander, but Zurgo is kind of the exception because he's indestructible during your turn. So basically all the board wipes just leave him as the only creature on the board typically.
You're right about the testing, the strengths and weaknesses. Going forward I think I will set aside a portion of the article for that.
I didn't have too many issues missing land drops. The curve is really low and the mana rocks are plentiful. If I was willing to pump more money into the deck I would have probably included things like Land Tax (5+ tix) and Scroll Rack (1 tix). I probably also would have included Phyrexian Arena and similar effects. They all just seemed too pricey and the sacrifice of the budget was a little bit less consistency on that front. The land drops were important but after I had Zurgo on the board it becomes less so, as he is pretty hard to deal with if you pull or tutor for the right equipment.
How well I fared against control decks depended on a couple of things. If there were at least two players playing control that were targeting me with hate, it was a rough patch. If I could kill one of them I would often fall to the other if I didn't draw/tutor for my shroud/hexproof equipment. Their own board wipes were often mitigated due to Assault Suit making Zurgo indestructible on their turns.
It's REALLY strong against other Voltron decks as you said, Wrath effects are often critical against them. Combo decks were cake too if I made them a priority target.
It's weak to permission, but often you can get out in front of a permission deck because they spend their turns 1-5 developing mana or the board. If someone DOES find a way to eliminate Zurgo the first time, if the permission player decided you were a threat it was hard to get back on board from that point.
Somewhat ironically, the decks I often lost to were aggro decks going wide. Having no blockers on my board was often such a juicy target for them that they couldn't resist, and Zurgo scared them enough to make me public enemy #1. I basically HAD to draw a wrath or I'd die against them going wide. Then even if I did wrath I had to hope they couldn't recover too quickly. Having done some more testing I would definitely pursue a couple of Planeswalkers, more more draw, and probably a few more wrath effects.
I think I'll try to keep statistics in the future to go along with that section. I hope I answered some of your questions. I found Zurgo to be a difficult deck to pilot, as so much of the games depended on the politics, but it was definitely one of the more fun decks I've made.
Holy crap, Vampiric Tutor is only 44 cents! Apparently I really have been away from MTGO for a long time.
One thing I missed is how the deck actually does when play testing. Strengths and weaknesses. Board wipes suck for any voltron commander, so you need to up your card draw I'm guessing. However you did note that missing land drops with a deck like this sucks. I would consider bumping it up to 40 lands, and including stuff like Land Tax and Journeyer's Kite. Were you able to beat any control decks?
Interested to see what you do when you get away from voltron.
Thanks for reading. Glad it helped.
The prices being low now and Eternal Weekend coming this weekend might actually be a good thing because some players might decide to buy in. I'm not really happy about my cards dropping in value but if this can be an entry point for other players it is a very good thing for Vintage players.
Hope to play Vintage with you one day! (or anything else)
"One note – Wizards has noted that players are not using the Gauntlet less as a way to experience the format and more as just another play experience. They have adjusted pricing and prizes to match that reality."
How would WotC be able to make that conclusion? If a bunch of players play the Gauntlet a lot, are they doing it to explore this "format" or are they playing it enough to explore all of the decks in the Gauntlet. You would have to play the Gauntlet A LOT in order to see all of the decks in it.
It seems to me like a flimsy excuse to raise the stakes (entry AND prizes) on the Gauntlet from 6 tickets to 10. Why does the motivation of the players in an event matter to the entry fee of an event anyway?
I suggested ideas similar to the Gauntlet well before WotC implemented it, but I was hesitant to try out decks I'm unfamiliar with playing at 6 tickets an event. I don't see myself playing in them at 10 tickets an event.
I can tell your prices are from Wednesday (which is fine because you need time to edit and format the article) because when they announced that BFZ wasn't rotating in April, I bought an Ally of Zendikar at 21. I was planning on adding it to some P.R.E. decks but then it shot up to 26 on Thursday and I decided I would rather have 26 tix.
Oh oh those. Yeah I played in a couple and top 8ed one. I don't recall them being called what you called them as Blippy and I concocted the idea (I mentioned it should be done and he got it done, powerhouse that he is.) Sorry I thought you were talking about a recent or upcoming event. Sadly this year the HOW didn't happen since Blippy has been struggling with irl stuff.
As a fish player, I really hate it when my matchup is against affinity...why wasn't it banned yet? jk ahah...it's great to see one of the oldest decks in the format still having great success
Hey,thanks for writing this article. Despite the fact I find this format to have a too big of an entry point for me, personally, this article helped me out to get to know the format a little bit. It even made want to play vintage kinda... If only I had extra cash to spare...The comment on pauper and treasure chests above was also interesting. It really sucks treasure chests crashing the value of vintage player's collections =S. Anyway good article...really helped me out by debunking some prejudice I might had towards vintage :)
The biggest reason to buy in to vintage is that the decks while they may change ranks rarely change very many cards in their line ups. Sideboards of course change as new hate becomes available. That fact and the fact that prices are sunk because of the currently very unpopular constructed pay out structure (treasure chests I am looking at you) means the format is accessible as it ever was and still should be easy enough to play in with some small adjustments in the years to come.
I like that Dredge a very well placed deck that often steals wins just because of the shuffle is so cheap. I have not beaten it in its vintage form yet but I don't play much and thus the opportunities have been low. I feel like Mentor is cheaper than listed here if you adjust a little. And Delver seems well poised to be good entry level deck. But personally I like little robots as my introduction to the format because it allowed me to play a deck cold (I'd never played it or affinity before) and still top 8 an event purely based on the power of the cards.
If I was a more dedicated player I might even spike up enough to join an event on occasion. Sadly I don't play often enough to be good with anything and my interests more lie in the crazy world of scifi mad science brewing. (IE stuff that 99% of the time will not fly against good vintage decks.)
Great article as always. It is true that Vintage is deeper than people imagine and not easily solved. The same powerful cards are in the pool but the pool is expanding and what works for one week will not necessarily work the next.
Prices have gone down due to treasure chests, but they are still absurdly high to make a single Tier 1 Vintage deck. Personally I do find that Vintage is more fun than most other formats, but to be honest I don't believe that the extra fun is worth the absurd prices you will need to pay. I regret having played Vintage for this reason - instead of the 1 deck I own in Vintage, I could have bought almost every single Tier 1 deck that exists in Pauper, and now it is too late to sell out because chests.
Plus the pros rarely touch this format and for obvious reasons. Yes there is the Vintage Super League, but that is a drop in the ocean. Most pros don't want to touch this format with a barge pole because it has no impact on whether they reach gold or plat.
(It was, however, nice to see LSV join the Vintage Hamtastic Community memorial events - kudos to him).
Thanks for listening, Michelle! Yeah I can see Totem in 100cs, though it could be dangerous vs certain decks: RDW for example. I too love the caravan, I just wish he didn't have a crew of 3. Makes it harder to find good 1 creature crews for him.
I like Phyrexian Totem in casual s100 decks. Yes it gets bricked if there is any risk of damage, but that Totem has got in a lot of damage over the years. The Kaladesh mana rock caravan is much better though, I love this new card.
WTF dude. Your own hate comes through pretty thick sometimes...
Language IS elastic. Check out a dictionary from 50 years ago and compare it to one printed this year. Definitions (particularly slang which is what we are talking here) have slowly changed over time. People use words in a variety of ways so much so that the context often needs clarifying without something to indicate nuance (sarcasm vs invective vs declamation, etc.) If language was inflexible (ie: not elastic) this wouldn't be the case...
Yeah I was just as surprised that Vampiric tutor was so so so cheap. It was a must for any black deck at that price point.
As for the board wipes, I agree in general board wipes hurt if you're killing you're own commander, but Zurgo is kind of the exception because he's indestructible during your turn. So basically all the board wipes just leave him as the only creature on the board typically.
You're right about the testing, the strengths and weaknesses. Going forward I think I will set aside a portion of the article for that.
I didn't have too many issues missing land drops. The curve is really low and the mana rocks are plentiful. If I was willing to pump more money into the deck I would have probably included things like Land Tax (5+ tix) and Scroll Rack (1 tix). I probably also would have included Phyrexian Arena and similar effects. They all just seemed too pricey and the sacrifice of the budget was a little bit less consistency on that front. The land drops were important but after I had Zurgo on the board it becomes less so, as he is pretty hard to deal with if you pull or tutor for the right equipment.
How well I fared against control decks depended on a couple of things. If there were at least two players playing control that were targeting me with hate, it was a rough patch. If I could kill one of them I would often fall to the other if I didn't draw/tutor for my shroud/hexproof equipment. Their own board wipes were often mitigated due to Assault Suit making Zurgo indestructible on their turns.
It's REALLY strong against other Voltron decks as you said, Wrath effects are often critical against them. Combo decks were cake too if I made them a priority target.
It's weak to permission, but often you can get out in front of a permission deck because they spend their turns 1-5 developing mana or the board. If someone DOES find a way to eliminate Zurgo the first time, if the permission player decided you were a threat it was hard to get back on board from that point.
Somewhat ironically, the decks I often lost to were aggro decks going wide. Having no blockers on my board was often such a juicy target for them that they couldn't resist, and Zurgo scared them enough to make me public enemy #1. I basically HAD to draw a wrath or I'd die against them going wide. Then even if I did wrath I had to hope they couldn't recover too quickly. Having done some more testing I would definitely pursue a couple of Planeswalkers, more more draw, and probably a few more wrath effects.
I think I'll try to keep statistics in the future to go along with that section. I hope I answered some of your questions. I found Zurgo to be a difficult deck to pilot, as so much of the games depended on the politics, but it was definitely one of the more fun decks I've made.
Holy crap, Vampiric Tutor is only 44 cents! Apparently I really have been away from MTGO for a long time.
One thing I missed is how the deck actually does when play testing. Strengths and weaknesses. Board wipes suck for any voltron commander, so you need to up your card draw I'm guessing. However you did note that missing land drops with a deck like this sucks. I would consider bumping it up to 40 lands, and including stuff like Land Tax and Journeyer's Kite. Were you able to beat any control decks?
Interested to see what you do when you get away from voltron.
Thanks for reading. Glad it helped.
The prices being low now and Eternal Weekend coming this weekend might actually be a good thing because some players might decide to buy in. I'm not really happy about my cards dropping in value but if this can be an entry point for other players it is a very good thing for Vintage players.
Hope to play Vintage with you one day! (or anything else)
Yea it can be a rough go for Fish but at least you have Hurkyll's Recall :)
"One note – Wizards has noted that players are not using the Gauntlet less as a way to experience the format and more as just another play experience. They have adjusted pricing and prizes to match that reality."
How would WotC be able to make that conclusion? If a bunch of players play the Gauntlet a lot, are they doing it to explore this "format" or are they playing it enough to explore all of the decks in the Gauntlet. You would have to play the Gauntlet A LOT in order to see all of the decks in it.
It seems to me like a flimsy excuse to raise the stakes (entry AND prizes) on the Gauntlet from 6 tickets to 10. Why does the motivation of the players in an event matter to the entry fee of an event anyway?
I suggested ideas similar to the Gauntlet well before WotC implemented it, but I was hesitant to try out decks I'm unfamiliar with playing at 6 tickets an event. I don't see myself playing in them at 10 tickets an event.
It should, but that one isn't online, and is, as we discussed at length, bad. :)
The art for torture should be the homelands version.
I can tell your prices are from Wednesday (which is fine because you need time to edit and format the article) because when they announced that BFZ wasn't rotating in April, I bought an Ally of Zendikar at 21. I was planning on adding it to some P.R.E. decks but then it shot up to 26 on Thursday and I decided I would rather have 26 tix.
They were Classic, not Vintage (switched to Vintage only in the last one in 2015). Very very different format.
Heh not so mindless!
Oh oh those. Yeah I played in a couple and top 8ed one. I don't recall them being called what you called them as Blippy and I concocted the idea (I mentioned it should be done and he got it done, powerhouse that he is.) Sorry I thought you were talking about a recent or upcoming event. Sadly this year the HOW didn't happen since Blippy has been struggling with irl stuff.
Hi Paul, the events were called "Ham on Wry: The Erik Friborg Celebration Classic". They were Vintage events hosted on Gatherling.
As a fish player, I really hate it when my matchup is against affinity...why wasn't it banned yet? jk ahah...it's great to see one of the oldest decks in the format still having great success
Hey,thanks for writing this article. Despite the fact I find this format to have a too big of an entry point for me, personally, this article helped me out to get to know the format a little bit. It even made want to play vintage kinda... If only I had extra cash to spare...The comment on pauper and treasure chests above was also interesting. It really sucks treasure chests crashing the value of vintage player's collections =S. Anyway good article...really helped me out by debunking some prejudice I might had towards vintage :)
The biggest reason to buy in to vintage is that the decks while they may change ranks rarely change very many cards in their line ups. Sideboards of course change as new hate becomes available. That fact and the fact that prices are sunk because of the currently very unpopular constructed pay out structure (treasure chests I am looking at you) means the format is accessible as it ever was and still should be easy enough to play in with some small adjustments in the years to come.
I like that Dredge a very well placed deck that often steals wins just because of the shuffle is so cheap. I have not beaten it in its vintage form yet but I don't play much and thus the opportunities have been low. I feel like Mentor is cheaper than listed here if you adjust a little. And Delver seems well poised to be good entry level deck. But personally I like little robots as my introduction to the format because it allowed me to play a deck cold (I'd never played it or affinity before) and still top 8 an event purely based on the power of the cards.
If I was a more dedicated player I might even spike up enough to join an event on occasion. Sadly I don't play often enough to be good with anything and my interests more lie in the crazy world of scifi mad science brewing. (IE stuff that 99% of the time will not fly against good vintage decks.)
Great article as always. It is true that Vintage is deeper than people imagine and not easily solved. The same powerful cards are in the pool but the pool is expanding and what works for one week will not necessarily work the next.
Vintage Hamtastic Community what?? Do you mean the CCC? I don't remember there being any vintage in those...Please link.
Great article, thanks for writing it.
Prices have gone down due to treasure chests, but they are still absurdly high to make a single Tier 1 Vintage deck. Personally I do find that Vintage is more fun than most other formats, but to be honest I don't believe that the extra fun is worth the absurd prices you will need to pay. I regret having played Vintage for this reason - instead of the 1 deck I own in Vintage, I could have bought almost every single Tier 1 deck that exists in Pauper, and now it is too late to sell out because chests.
Plus the pros rarely touch this format and for obvious reasons. Yes there is the Vintage Super League, but that is a drop in the ocean. Most pros don't want to touch this format with a barge pole because it has no impact on whether they reach gold or plat.
(It was, however, nice to see LSV join the Vintage Hamtastic Community memorial events - kudos to him).
Elasticity implies a flexibility and an ability to be used in multiple ways without deforming the initial intent. I think it fits perfectly.
Evolves implies that definitions get better, more precise, and less vague. (Because otherwise it would be devolves.)
The interesting thing is AJ is right in that there is no one correct answer because words. :D
This proves the point. Which one, I'm not certain, but definitely one of them.
I do not think elastic is the word I would use for language. I think evolves would be better suited for it.
Thanks for listening, Michelle! Yeah I can see Totem in 100cs, though it could be dangerous vs certain decks: RDW for example. I too love the caravan, I just wish he didn't have a crew of 3. Makes it harder to find good 1 creature crews for him.
Nice podcast.
I like Phyrexian Totem in casual s100 decks. Yes it gets bricked if there is any risk of damage, but that Totem has got in a lot of damage over the years. The Kaladesh mana rock caravan is much better though, I love this new card.
I think that language is elastic.
WTF dude. Your own hate comes through pretty thick sometimes...
Language IS elastic. Check out a dictionary from 50 years ago and compare it to one printed this year. Definitions (particularly slang which is what we are talking here) have slowly changed over time. People use words in a variety of ways so much so that the context often needs clarifying without something to indicate nuance (sarcasm vs invective vs declamation, etc.) If language was inflexible (ie: not elastic) this wouldn't be the case...
Language is not elastic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language
It is a far stretch from hate to dislikes somewhat.
That wotc hasnt hired you is a loss for them.
I am sure it would take a lot more to see through what you would write than what Pete writes.